Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Investigator. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
*OFFICIAL UPDATES*
- Studied Combat: the insight bonus to attack rolls against the target of your studied strike lasts for a number of rounds equal to the investigator's Intelligence modifier, or until he chooses to make a studied strike, whichever happens first.
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A standard action to activate, and you only get the bonus once? Ooph. That hurts.
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Studied Combat/Studied Strike still seem like they are coming too late, leaving the Investigator a bit underwhelming in combat 1-3. Reading the mechanics of Studied Combat, it made me think of a Paladin's Smite Evil. Using that as a comparison, it seems weak.
PROS:
*Works on non-evil creatures
*No per day limit, can be used unlimited times as long as there are new targets
*Potentially scales to a higher attack roll bonus (+10 at level 20 Investigator, an equivalent paladin would need a 30 Charisma)
CONS:
*Only one target at a time
*Lasts only for a number of rounds equal to half Intelligence modifier, instead of until the target is dead
*Cancelled as soon as Studied Strike is used
*Cannot be used again on the same target within 24 hours
*Standard action to use instead of swift
*Starts at 4th level instead of 1st
*Only applies to melee attack rolls, not ranged
*Doesn't provide a damage or AC bonus
*Attack roll bonus is insight instead of untyped, so it won't stack with other insight bonuses
*Potentially starts with a lower bonus (+2 vs. 3-5 for a Paladin with decent Charisma)
Since Studied Strike can only be performed against the target of Studied Combat but also cancels Studied Combat when used, it seems to be a worse option than Sneak Attack. In addition to requiring a standard action to set up, Studied Strike can't be used multiple times if you have iterative attacks or two weapon fighting. And even if you wanted to spend another standard action to set yourself up to Studied Strike again, you can't target the same enemy for another 24 hours.
While I still love the Investigator, the replacement for Sneak Attack, as currently written, is very underwhelming. The duration on Studied Combat seems far too short, even without Studied Strike cancelling it, and the overall bonus is fairly minor.
Studied Strike feels better than Sneak Attack, certainly. You can use Inspiration in combat, but you're still not that useful during combat until fourth level. I'd probably play this class in an AP, but I wouldn't play it in PFS because it'd take far too long to actually be useful to any party you join.
Thematically it fits better, IMO, but if given the choice, I'd take sneak attack over it any day. It's a standard action to get an accuracy boost for a very short number of rounds that goes away the second you use Studied Strike. Which will probably be the next turn. So that's two turns whereas the sneak attacker just kinda...stabs and gets extra damage.
If you could use a crossbow or any sort of ranged weapon with it, it'd be nice as sort of surprise shot ability, but as is...
I get that they're meant to be the skill monkeys and not damage-blenders, but this seems a bit of a nerf for a class that's not much different from an Expert of the same level for the first few levels.
I'm interested in doing some playtests of this ability, but I'm not sure how much that'll change my view. Taking up 2 turns for single set of d6s...not so sure about that.
a number of rounds equal to his half his Intelligence
modifier (minimum 1 round), or until he chooses to
make a studied strike, whichever comes first.
You take one turn to study, then attack on the next. Then another turn to study, one to attack. You essentially only get to attack half the time if you want the bonuses. That doesn't sound like fun to me.
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Studied Combat + Studied Strike seems like an inferior replacement for Sneak Attack. While it's great that the Investigator is able to grant himself a large amount of bonus damage, there are two drastic drawbacks to the ability:
- Standard action to activate. I'm confused why this doesn't improve at higher levels, as it's a huge action economy disadvantage.
- Only once per target every 24 hours.
I understand that they're trying to stop the class being a strictly better rogue, but I think it should only have - at most - one of these drawbacks. If you can Studied Strike a target every two rounds, it's - at best - a middling bonus damage ability. Or, if you can only use it on a target once but it doesn't require the huge action investment in the first place? Good against mooks, not so great against big, HP-loaded targets, but still an okay ability.
The combination of the two makes it a pretty bad ability.
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You take one turn to study, then attack on the next. Then another turn to study, one to attack. You essentially only get to attack half the time if you want the bonuses. That doesn't sound like fun to me.a number of rounds equal to his half his Intelligence
modifier (minimum 1 round), or until he chooses to
make a studied strike, whichever comes first.
It's worse than that.
...once a creature has become the target of an investigator’s studied combat, he cannot become the target of the same investigator’s studied combat for 24 hours.
It lasts for a number of rounds equal to half your INT modifier, and it's a free action to add the extra damage. Can you only use one free action per round? Sure, it means you have one round of not doing much, but then you get a full round of sneak attack without needing to meet any of the usual prerequisites.
The free action that lets you add the extra damage, Studied Strike, ends the duration of Studied Combat. Without a target for Studied Combat, you can't spend your free actions to Studied Strike anymore.
EDIT: Ninja'ed by ubiquitous.
My reading is that you can gain the insight bonus on multiple attacks (all your attacks for a number of rounds equal to half your INT modifier), or until you make a Studied Strike.
So if you have an INT mod of +6, you could make three rounds' worth of full attack actions against the target (with all attacks benefiting from the insight bonus to the attack rolls), then make the last attack in the final full attack a Studied Strike and deal the precision damage.
That would be the optimal method of using the abilities.
Note that there's a couple of discoveries that rely on Studied Combat Quick Study and Studied Defense. So you can then study the opponent as a move action and have the option to add the insight bonus to your AC instead.
My reading is that you can gain the insight bonus on multiple attacks (all your attacks for a number of rounds equal to half your INT modifier), or until you make a Studied Strike.
So if you have an INT mod of +6, you could make three rounds' worth of full attack actions against the target (with all attacks benefiting from the insight bonus to the attack rolls), then make the last attack in the final full attack a Studied Strike and deal the precision damage.
Ah, good catch. So you can get a pretty good bonus to hit for a couple of rounds, then finish with bonus damage. Maybe not so bad as I thought, but I'm still not thrilled about it.
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It lasts for a number of rounds equal to half your INT modifier, and it's a free action to add the extra damage. Can you only use one free action per round? Sure, it means you have one round of not doing much, but then you get a full round of sneak attack without needing to meet any of the usual prerequisites.
Um, no. You don't get a Full Round of Sneak Attack. You get one. Because Studied Combat ends when you use a Studied Strike, and you can only use SS when SC is up.
Joining the chorus of "That action economy is physically painful". Not quite "Using Kirin Strike" painful, but up there. I don't see a reason to EVER use Studied Strike. Studied Combat will be worth it sometimes at higher levels, when that +5 to-hit pushes you out of auto-miss range (then again, it only lasts 1 round unless you have 18 Int...something you don't benefit from a whole lot since all of your other class stuff works with 16 Int...so maybe not).
I'm not a fan of Sneak Attack, at all...but it was a lot better than this.
Why wouldn't you use Studied Strike every time on the last attack you can make before it expires? Using it earlier would be questionable, but not using it at all would be silly; if the ability is about to expire anyway, you'd always want to use it on that final attack.
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The Quick Study and Studied Defense Talents just feel like they are adding insult to injury.
Quick Study should be built into Studied Combat from the start, you shouldn't need to waste a talent to bring the action economy within reasonable limits and after a certain level, you shouldn't need to spend inspiration for a swift action Studied Combat.
Studied Defense makes me think of the similarity to Smite Evil again, except that instead of getting a bonus to hit and AC simultaneously, the Investigator has to choose and needs to waste a talent just to get that choice.
Since it's really the only thing to talk about for Investigator this iteration, I have to agree that the new study mechanics need a buff, even though their flavor is delicious.
Perhaps some more Talents to augment it? I'd definitely invest in a talent to boost its range to 30m like Sneak Attack, or spend an Inspiration Point to retain the bonus after using Studied Strike.
Why wouldn't you use Studied Strike every time on the last attack you can make before it expires? Using it earlier would be questionable, but not using it at all would be silly; if the ability is about to expire anyway, you'd always want to use it on that final attack.
In theory, that seems like the best way to do it. But in practice, you're going to run into the possibility that you use a couple turns of Studied Combat's bonus to hit, then when you reach your final turn miss your last attack and lose your opportunity to use the bonus damage, vs. using it as soon as you successfully hit with a melee attack.
I have an Investigator in The Moonscar game I'm running so I'll try to have some feedback in the next week or so.
I would have it function thus:
Studied Combat is gained at 1st level; it starts as a move action and improves to a swift at 8th. Studied Defense gets built into the Studied Combat feature; you gain a number of points of insight bonus from Studied Combat that can be allotted to your AC or attack rolls, divvied up at the time you use Studied Combat. Otherwise, Studied Combat remains the same.
Studied Strike would be changed so that it can be performed once per round for the duration of Studied Combat.
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
You could get a bonus to AoO's, I guess? But now that you pointed that out, Studied Combat without Quick Study seems even more underwhelming. Would number of rounds equal to full Intelligence modifier really be that overpowering?
Studied Combat doesn't synergise very well with the Investigator's abilities by granting a bonus to attack. Sure, as a 3/4 BAB class it means that the Investigator is going to be able to hit more consistently when using Studied Combat, but the Investigator already has an - albeit limited - pool for which to increase their attack bonus with Inspiration.
What they really need - and what Sneak Attack and now Studied Strike try to fill - is some kind of damage bonus. If they're requiring a minimum of 16-18 intelligence, then their damage isn't going to be anything spectacular. They only wear light armor, are not proficient in shields, and their weapon selection is pretty similar to a Rogue's.
At least with Sneak Attack it's a consistent damage bonus on every attack so long as the Rogue has sort of flank, or can feint the target (a known problem, but still more consistent than the current implementation of Studied Attack).
Basically, an +attack bonus that is independent of a +damage bonus isn't very useful for the Investigator as it'll let them hit consistently, but their damage will be very minimal.
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
I overlooked that, and that's an excellent point.
Perhaps the 'clock' on the effect should not begin until you make your first attack against the target? That would add some flexibility to it. At the same time, though, to use it effectively it's still just as positionally-restricted as sneak attack, and that makes it rather underpowered IMO.
[edit]
Just thought I'd toss out my full edited idea of how this could best function:
Beginning with his next attack against the opponent, he gains an insight bonus equal to half his investigator level; this insight bonus can be divided as desired between the investigator's AC versus attacks made by the opponent, or to attacks made by the investigator against his opponent. These bonuses last a number of rounds equal to half his INT modifier, rounded down (minimum 1).
An investigator can only have one target of studied combat at a time, and once a creature has become the target of an investigator’s studied combat, he cannot become the target of the same investigator’s studied combat for 24 hours.
Studied Strike (Ex): At 4th level, an investigator can choose to make a studied strike against the target of his studied combat as a free action upon successfully hitting with a melee attack to deal additional damage. The damage is 1d6 at 4th level and increases by 1d6 for every two investigator levels thereafter (to a maximum of 9d6 at 20th level). The damage of studied strike is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit; creatures that are immune to sneak attack are also immune to studied strike. The investigator can use this ability once per round for the duration of his studied combat.
If the investigator’s attack used a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), he may choose to have the additional damage from studied strike be nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. If the investigator chose to make an attack with a lethal weapon instead do nonlethal damage (with the usual –4 penalty), the studied strike damage may also deal nonlethal damage.
The investigator must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. An investigator cannot use studied strike against a creature with concealment.
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So we had a number of choices in the tweaking of the investigator's precision damage, but two main ones. The first was to keep sneak attack at 4th level, but scale the damage progress to every three levels, or to experiment with studied strike. Why scale it down? The class was just getting too much. It's often utility. It's often restricted to theme, but we did have to scale it back a bit.
For this document, we decided to release studied strike. It was a more interesting choice, and we could see if it was satisfying to play, and felt like it went with the investigator. If we keep it, the timing may need to be tweaked, or the frequency, or the fact that you can't use it on the same target for 24 hours, but for right now, play test it. See if it is right for an investigator--not a rogue substitute--but an investigator.
That's all I ask. I look forward to reading about your experiences.
It is not an oversight, studied strike right now works on melee attacks.
So we had a number of choices in the tweaking of the investigator's precision damage, but two main ones. The first was to keep sneak attack at 4th level, but scale the damage progress to every three levels, or to experiment with studied strike. Why scale it down? The class was just getting too much. It's often utility. It's often restricted to theme, but we did have to scale it back a bit.
For this document, we decided to release studied strike. It was a more interesting choice, and we could see if it was satisfying to play, and felt like it went with the investigator. If we keep it, the timing may need to be tweaked, or the frequency, or the fact that you can't use it on the same target for 24 hours, but for right now, play test it. See if it is right for an investigator--not a rogue substitute--but an investigator.
That's all I ask. I look forward to reading about your experiences.
Thanks for the insight, Stephen. Always interesting to hear about the design thoughts behind these abilities.
I agree with the idea behind Studied Combat/Strike. It definitely fits the Investigator far more than Sneak Attack did. I just think it's a little too restrictive/underpowered in its current implementation.
Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
@SRM: I'm willing to give it a shot. Just from the description of people on the forums (the Sherlock Holmes boxing match) I was expecting a bit more. :)
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I was excited about playing this class before.... now after seeing the changes, The insanely massive nerf studied strike is has made my players completely disregard the class, they won't even consider it at this point. If they want to take away all the physical damage to the point where it's pretty much pointless and make it a skill monkey/caster, don't give abilities that will just become completely pointless by the time you get access to them.
I was excited about playing this class before.... now after seeing the changes, The insanely massive nerf studied strike is has made my players completely disregard the class, they won't even consider it at this point. If they want to take away all the physical damage to the point where it's pretty much pointless and make it a skill monkey/caster, don't give abilities that will just become completely pointless by the time you get access to them.
Agreed. Fluff good, implementation bad.
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It is not an oversight, studied strike right now works on melee attacks.
Well I can tell you now It's not really going to work. To take advantage of the ability he has to be in melee which since he's trying to do a ranged Investigator is a bit of a none starter. I dont see why letting ranged attacks use this ability would be such a big deal for two reasons
1 Most class abilities that give you a bonus can be used in Melee and ranger (Favoured enemy, Smite, Sneak attack even rage while not adding a bonus to hit increases the damage of thrown weapons
2 It forces all Investigators into Melee builds
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Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)
Studied Combat is really weak and weird right now. Losing a standard action is not fun at all, the damage is low, it loses utility after used, the duration should just not be there.
In order to fix that, i would propose the following:
Studied Combat(Ex): The investigator can spend a swift action to declare a creature the focus of his studied combat. Against his chosen target the investigator receives an insight bonus to attack or AC equal to his Intelligence bonus and deals an extra 1d6 precision damage plus 1d6 for each three levels beyond 1. The target remains until out of sight for more than the Investigator's Intelligence in rounds, dead, or until the investigator declares to stop the focus. After ending the studied combat, the investigator is fatigued for (10 - int) rounds.
As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
That's uhm.....hrm.
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As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
Stephen, I wouldn't necessarily say that having less than 18 Int is "dumping" it. I've seen plenty of Oracles, Bards, Alchemists, Inquisitors, Summoners, and other classes that get 6 levels of spells start with a 14 in their casting stat. With Investigator, that would mean you couldn't have your Studied Combat do anything until level 8 or a +4 Int headband barring an extremely specific build based on getting attacks of opportunity.
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As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
Having 16 Int is now considered "dumping" it.
Who knew?
Investigator has officially slid from my favorite of the new classes, to one I would never consider playing.
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As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.Having 16 Int is now considered "dumping" it.
Who knew?
Investigator has officially slid from my favorite of the new classes, to one I would never consider playing.
Yeah I have never seen a class fall out of favor with my players so quikly before.
Personally, it's more about being an interesting character with the 15 point buy that sean has mentioned as the default for designing against.
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I was excited about playing this class before.... now after seeing the changes, The insanely massive nerf studied strike is has made my players completely disregard the class, they won't even consider it at this point. If they want to take away all the physical damage to the point where it's pretty much pointless and make it a skill monkey/caster, don't give abilities that will just become completely pointless by the time you get access to them.Agreed. Fluff good, implementation bad.I really don't think the fluff is all that great.
"oh look how smart Dr. Smarty Pants is, he can study an opponent and strike its weak points."
"Oh look how roguey Dr. Roguey Pants is, he knows an opponents weak points and can strike them."
If anything, it's dumber fluff. Dr Smarty pants has to spend all this time going "hrmmm" and scratching his chin when the philistine Rogue already knows where the weak points are.
I'm just sayin, I hope Dr Smarty Pants didn't get an expensive student loan when he went to Investigator school. There's no way he is going to pay it off if he is no better than a layman.
Yeah and Dr smarty pants has to get into punching range to do it while the rogue just takes a shot from 30feet away.
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Yeah I have never seen a class fall out of favor with my players so quikly before.
Investigator was tied with Shaman as my favorite class before the revision. Now I'm having trouble even wanting to playtest it. Which is self-defeating to the max.
Gotta fight through the pain though.
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As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
It doesn't seem to be a matter of just not dumping Int, since an Investigator with 17 Int (+3 modifier, divide by 2, round down...1 round duration) spends a standard action to use Studied Combat, which lasts until the beginning of his next turn, preventing him from taking advantage of Studied Combat except on AoO's. And a 17 Int is already higher than the Investigator needs to cast his max level spells. The 17 Int Investigator is actually no better off than one with 7 Int, as far as the duration of Studied Combat is concerned.
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As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)
I'd say 16 Intelligence isn't dumping Int, yet - somehow - isn't high enough a stat for a 4th level ability. That's a pretty tough requirement.
It almost doesn't seem worth it, as - at 4th level - all an Investigator receives if they spend a standard action to study a target, is +2 to Attack, and +1d6 Damage in the next round. They can't reduce it to a Move action until 5th level.