wait, so using both would give you two d20 rolls and two d6 on one SM check, choosing the best of both? that's pretty baller for a snake style investigators.
My thoughts exactly, but I wasn't sure if anyone else was going to be a weirdo like I am and automatically jump to thinking of unarmed builds for every single one of the new ACG classes. =p
Wait, why don't we just allow an Investigator to modify his sneak attacks the same way an Alchemist modifies his bombs... via a discovery system.
Rogue talents actually already modify the rogues sneak attack. The problem is most of those modifications suck, like most every other rogue talent.
Wait, why don't we just allow an Investigator to modify his sneak attacks the same way an Alchemist modifies his bombs... via a discovery system.Rogue talents actually already modify the rogues sneak attack. The problem is most of those modifications suck, like most every other rogue talent.
And yep. The bleed damage is sometimes alright in the right situation (in that it will generate a solid extra 5 damage a round or w/e and sometimes more when you can surprise and attack a bunch of guys) but they are by-and-large underwhelming.
And yep. The bleed damage is sometimes alright in the right situation (in that it will generate a solid extra 5 damage a round or w/e and sometimes more when you can surprise and attack a bunch of guys) but they are by-and-large underwhelming.Wait, why don't we just allow an Investigator to modify his sneak attacks the same way an Alchemist modifies his bombs... via a discovery system.Rogue talents actually already modify the rogues sneak attack. The problem is most of those modifications suck, like most every other rogue talent.
Perhaps if they went this route with the Investigator we could hope they'd make them available to the Rogue as a talent? Two backstabbing birds with one stone?
...I was thinking of this post specifically as a concept. I love the creative, "I'm-an-intelligent-guy" concept that the investigator represents. Would it be desirable to includeDebilitation (Ex): Upon reaching the 4th level, the Investigator can chose to inflict a status effect when performing a Studied Strike. He selects a Debilitation at 4th level and can chose another for every three investigator levels thereafter. Unless noted otherwise the duration of the effects is equal to the investigator’s INT bonus in rounds. The save to avoid the effect is (Fort. 10+1/2 the investigator lvl. + INT mod.). Effects:
At 4th level, the Investigator can select from the following initial Debilitations:.
• Fatigued: The target is fatigued.
• Shaken: The target is shaken.
• Sickened: The target is sickened.At 7th level, an Investigator adds the following Debilitations to the list of those that can be selected.
• Dazed: The target is dazed.
• Staggered: The target is staggered,At 10th level, an Investigator adds the following Debilitations to the list of those that can be selected.
• Exhausted: The target is exhausted.
• Frightened: The target is frightened.
• Nauseated: The target is nauseated.At 13th level, an Investigator adds the following Debilitations to the list of those that can be selected.
• Blinded: The target is blinded.
• Deafened: The target is deafened.
• Paralyzed: The target is paralyzed.
• Stunned: The target is stunned.Pros:
- The damage provided is not too high, being lighter than the rogue or the spell based attacks. Getting a one hit (if it hits) mid-to-high damage follows the concept.
- This mechanic allows the class to be viable in a fight from the 1st level.
- The debilitations add flavour causing status that are already available at the required level (and not breaking the balance).
- The rogue (or vivisectionist or alchemist) will still deal more damage in most situations.
It does fit the intelligent concept being able to disable opponents and having someone else to articulate into complex strategies.
I really don't mind the latest version that is a move action buff that can be demoted to a swift action. It is mechanically fine, imo. I would tweak it in some directions, but that is always true.
If you guys are bothered by the damage in particular though, perhaps there could be an archetype that could replace studied strike that traded damage for status effects? That would come pretty cheap at this point.
Do people really want a complete redesign to fight around stuns and staggers and stuff?
the redesign hardly needs to be as extensive as you're implying. and, yes, i would prefer a more unique contribution to combat than additional damage. is that so bad?
What about some sort of Investigator Talent that lets the Investigator count as having a teamwork feat for other characters but not benefit from it?
For instance, a Fighter has outflank, but the Investigator doesn't, with the above talent, the Fighter gains the benefit of Outflank, while the Investigator doesn't.
Kind of the reversal of Inquisitors 'Solo Tactics' if you will.
They should get something that we look at and think: "wow, this is great!". The low extra damage after all the preparation required gets, at most, a "meh...".
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The Alchemist is one of the best balanced classes in the game.
EVERY CLASS should be compared to ones like it and the Inquisitor as a benchmark.
Normally, I don't really give in to preaching, but I am reaching for my coin purse!
I would laugh quite maniacally if there was a method for Rogues to gain both Favored Target AND Inspiration/Studied Combat.
If they do give the investigator the option to debuff, then it will need to function without shutting down studied combat. You need to debuff early, not late.
It occurs to me that if they put in a talent to make studied combat stay up after studied strike, then they could have another talent that gives a penalty to something equal to number of sneak dice for rounds equal to intelligence.
Its a pretty steep buy in, but at least it would be a viable option.
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Is there going to be anything that makes the investigator at least somewhat viable for 1st-3rd level? That's my main concern for the class (after the Studied Combat/Strike changes).Given our playtest data to this point, the investigator is pretty darn viable at early levels. There is even some mild concerns that it is rather front-loaded. Putting studied combat at an earlier level has a very low likelihood of occurring.
How much low level playtest data do you have from after the V.2 document was released though? Building to leverage studied strike is really different than building to leverage Sneak Attack. I had 5-6 builds pre v.2 I felt could hold their own at low levels and still pull off sneak attacks later. The builds I am working with now are either really sub optimal for levels 1-3 or have a stunted Studied Strike ability later on. Moving from sneak attack to studied strike has a big impact on the levels before you get studied strike.
I would like to see Studied Combat go more or less entirely level based. Maybe some minor functionality tied to Int but still worth using even if the Investigator has an Int 12 or 13 at 4th level.
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pretty sure they want it to be an INT class. i'm totally fine with it being practically useless to a low int character.
I know that it's a dirty word at many tables, but granting Leadership to said archetype could be interesting as well. After all, Holmes not only had his Watson, but also his Baker Street Irregulars.A talent about getting a sidekick would be nifty. Maybe as a Cohort that has a certain number of base skills per level. Maybe just an Expert that you can 'store' Inspiration in and make use of it later, like a ring of grit.One thousand times yes.
Every Sherlock needs his Watson.
Every Dr. needs his Companion.Put a talent tree in for this and I'm sold.
(Maybe an archetype that replaces mutagens?)
Did the Baker St Irregulars do any more than gather information for him? (I suppose sometimes 'acquiring' items.)
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In the hunter thread, I said that the hunter is definitely going to need another round of playtesting, and likely the shaman too. However, I also said the investigator may need another round due to some prominent changes in abilities and balance.
What do you guys think? Does it need a round three?
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In the hunter thread, I said that the hunter is definitely going to need another round of playtesting, and likely the shaman too. However, I also said the investigator may need another round due to some prominent changes in abilities and balance.
What do you guys think? Does it need a round three?
Most certainly. The non combat part of the class is really great, but in a fight it still needs a lot of work.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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In the hunter thread, I said that the hunter is definitely going to need another round of playtesting, and likely the shaman too. However, I also said the investigator may need another round due to some prominent changes in abilities and balance.
What do you guys think? Does it need a round three?
That's a moot point, because the developers have already stated that their timeline would not allow for another round... they have to finish the final development too soon for that so that their books can be sent off to the printer.
*pokes head in*
I was just walking along when suddenly I was struck by inspiration on what would be a great mechanic for Investigator. A minute later, I realized it wasn't that great. But anyways, I thought I'd share.
Predictive Study, activated as a move, maybe a standard. Lasts for a number of rounds equal to intelligence modifier, probably. The target cannot take attacks of opportunity against the Investigator during that period. This would allow the Investigator to slip up close to monsters with reach, move past a defender, and/or use the full range of combat maneuvers untrained. On the other hand… the full range of combat maneuvers. I don't know of any DMs who want to deal with trip, grapple, sunder, dirty trick, and all the rest every combat.
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Did the Baker St Irregulars do any more than gather information for him? (I suppose sometimes 'acquiring' items.)
Not really. They only appeared in two books. In both cases they were his eyes and ears on the street. He paid them for each good lead they brought him. So they were a passive information gathering network, that he occasionally sent to actively look for specific information.
The most they ever did was in their first appearance, in A Study in Scarlet. He sent them out to locate a specific cab driver in London, and then he had them summon that cab driver to give Holmes a ride (which was a trap, Holmes arrested the cabby when he arrived).
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Yes. Basically. You also get the flat precision damage from studied combat on your studied strike.So the idea is that you get some small extra steady damage, and then you end it with one strong hit?
First thought is that I like that, and perhaps more importantly, I'm interested to playtest it.
Is it still limited to once per enemy per 24 hours?
Duration = to Int Modifier? Well, Int Bonus, I guess.
One enemy per 24 hours. Yes.
Duration is Int bonus. That's an official change that is in the first post of the boards.
Okay, so just to make sure I've got this right:
Studied Combat: Move Action (can increase to Swift with Talent). Gain ½ Investigator level as Insight Bonus to Attack and as Precision Damage to a target (once per target in 24 hour period)Studied Combat: Free Action. End Studied Combat against target to get +1d6 Precision damage to target (+1d6 for every two levels)
Both abilities are gained at level 4.
Chiming in my support for these proposed Studied Combat/Studied Strike changes. This would go a long way to making the class play better and feel unique.
Did the Baker St Irregulars do any more than gather information for him? (I suppose sometimes 'acquiring' items.)I know that it's a dirty word at many tables, but granting Leadership to said archetype could be interesting as well. After all, Holmes not only had his Watson, but also his Baker Street Irregulars.A talent about getting a sidekick would be nifty. Maybe as a Cohort that has a certain number of base skills per level. Maybe just an Expert that you can 'store' Inspiration in and make use of it later, like a ring of grit.One thousand times yes.
Every Sherlock needs his Watson.
Every Dr. needs his Companion.Put a talent tree in for this and I'm sold.
(Maybe an archetype that replaces mutagens?)
Well, information-gathering was sort of my point: Leadership not only gives you your sidekick, but it also gives you a number of followers - minor NPCs that can act as informants, provide you small favors, etc.
I like the theme of an Investigator having followers, but I don't really think they need a talent for it. Especially at early levels such a talent could be pretty powerful, and we already have available feats to help out.
Squire - picked up at level 3 with a dip into another class. Fighter (Lore Warden) would be really tempting.
Leadership - grab it at level 7 like anybody else
Dynasty Founder - the perfect way to start off with your Baker Stree Irregulars.
Really what I would support would be a talent that lets you use Intelligence instead of Charisma when calculating your Leadership Score, or simply one that gives you some bonuses to Leadership.
Someone pointed out "Leadership" can be a dirty word at some tables. I agree.
I was hoping an Investigator side-kick talent-tree/archetype could give some unique uses for the companion (like storing inspiration, or acting as a spell book, or providing daily-re-rolls) that apply in clever ways for the investigator. Not just to improve upon Leadership. Most agree leadership is too powerful unless house ruled appropriately.
There are of course other ways to do it (as you mentioned above)--but if it's class specific we might see even more fun (and balanced) additions to game play.
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pretty sure they want it to be an INT class. i'm totally fine with it being practically useless to a low int character.
If that is the case then Int needs to contribute more in melee, especially at low levels. Right now as a 1st level Alchemist in melee you are functionally an alchemist with no bombs or mutagen who can add a d6 to an attack roll or save .5 + int mod/2 times a day. That is if you don't want to not burn inspiration out of combat too. On top of that you need a higher casting stat than any other 6 level casting class so you can be good at studied strike later and you have to be melee oriented to leverage that ability as well. You are much weaker than your parent classes at low levels now.
pretty sure they want it to be an INT class. i'm totally fine with it being practically useless to a low int character.If that is the case then Int needs to contribute more in melee, especially at low levels. Right now as a 1st level Alchemist in melee you are functionally an alchemist with no bombs or mutagen who can add a d6 to an attack roll or save .5 + int mod/2 times a day. That is if you don't want to not burn inspiration out of combat too. On top of that you need a higher casting stat than any other 6 level casting class so you can be good at studied strike later and you have to be melee oriented to leverage that ability as well. You are much weaker than your parent classes at low levels now.
don't get me wrong; i agree with you and have said as much. just saying i don't want to shift away from int.
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pretty sure they want it to be an INT class. i'm totally fine with it being practically useless to a low int character.If that is the case then Int needs to contribute more in melee, especially at low levels. Right now as a 1st level Alchemist in melee you are functionally an alchemist with no bombs or mutagen who can add a d6 to an attack roll or save .5 + int mod/2 times a day. That is if you don't want to not burn inspiration out of combat too. On top of that you need a higher casting stat than any other 6 level casting class so you can be good at studied strike later and you have to be melee oriented to leverage that ability as well. You are much weaker than your parent classes at low levels now.
Indeed. And most builds right now try to balance INT and STR in order to do something in combat. That should not have to happen, as the concept is not of a brutish character, but one that fights with brains and finesse.
From the 1st level the Investigator should have a source of precision damage (and I mean something that can be used multiple times against the same enemy, not only once a day). Otherwise, well see another great concept that will rarely be used because of poor combat utility.
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Would you consider allowing Investigators to use Studied Combat more than one pert target per 24 hours? Like maybe 1 time with an additional use every few levels? Or maybe even infinite uses?
Absolutely. It was one of the things I brought up when we started discussing this option. I think my current favorite is by expending a use of inspiration when you studied combat, you can use it again on the same target.
We have a lot of different options on the table, and we are looking into which one solves the issues the best.
@Devo: I'm not certain that Stephen absolutely intended that to be the next official change. The duration change was added because he'd decided that it was definitely going to happen and he wanted the data on it from a playtest; I think the above was more a, "I think this is what I'm going to do, but I'm not 100% sure yet," statement.
This is correct.
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Someone pointed out "Leadership" can be a dirty word at some tables. I agree.
I was hoping an Investigator side-kick talent-tree/archetype could give some unique uses for the companion (like storing inspiration, or acting as a spell book, or providing daily-re-rolls) that apply in clever ways for the investigator. Not just to improve upon Leadership. Most agree leadership is too powerful unless house ruled appropriately.
There are of course other ways to do it (as you mentioned above)--but if it's class specific we might see even more fun (and balanced) additions to game play.
I think that the reason that Leadership is a dirty word in some tables (and doesn't work will with organized play) is that multiple characters tend to slow down the game and hog the spotlight. There are other reasons why that might be the issue (power level depending on build), but those go a long way for giving something the ban hammer in some play spaces.
While I'm not ruling out potential archetype options, for the most part I think we will just let Leadership do its job and not create a group of talents that does a similar job that would have most of the same problems that Leadership has among some groups.
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Really what I would support would be a talent that lets you use Intelligence instead of Charisma when calculating your Leadership Score, or simply one that gives you some bonuses to Leadership.
That should really be a feat, because it would fit many other classes as well. But this is getting into a tangent, Leadership should really have its own thread. This guy seems more "specialist" than "leader" to me - Snake Eyes, not Duke.
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In general, simple is good. But there is a point where simple becomes simplistic, and that is when things are no longer fun. I am not saying this is that point - actually that point varies from person to person. I am just saying that this is something to look out for. This path is the road 4E went down, and it's not been seen since...
I think I'm well aware of that game's road...much better than most, I would venture.
Someone pointed out "Leadership" can be a dirty word at some tables. I agree.
I was hoping an Investigator side-kick talent-tree/archetype could give some unique uses for the companion (like storing inspiration, or acting as a spell book, or providing daily-re-rolls) that apply in clever ways for the investigator. Not just to improve upon Leadership. Most agree leadership is too powerful unless house ruled appropriately.
There are of course other ways to do it (as you mentioned above)--but if it's class specific we might see even more fun (and balanced) additions to game play.
I think that the reason that Leadership is a dirty word in some tables (and doesn't work will with organized play) is that multiple characters tend to slow down the game and hog the spotlight. There are other reasons why that might be the issue (power level depending on build), but those go a long way for giving something the ban hammer in some play spaces.
While I'm not ruling out potential archetype options, for the most part I think we will just let Leadership do its job and not create a group of talents that does a similar job that would have most of the same problems that Leadership has among some groups.
A talent does seem like a strange way to do that, but what about a variant leadership feat like Squire or Torchbearer? A restricted version that can be taken at lower levels, and offers some flavor specific to "assistants" or "apprentices". Maybe, as mentioned above, let this feat use int for leadership score, since it seems appropriate for Wizards as well.
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A talent does seem like a strange way to do that, but what about a variant leadership feat like Squire or Torchbearer? A restricted version that can be taken at lower levels, and offers some flavor specific to "assistants" or "apprentices". Maybe, as mentioned above, let this feat use int for leadership score, since it seems appropriate for Wizards as well.
It is on the list of ideas for consideration.
pretty sure they want it to be an INT class. i'm totally fine with it being practically useless to a low int character.If that is the case then Int needs to contribute more in melee, especially at low levels. Right now as a 1st level Alchemist in melee you are functionally an alchemist with no bombs or mutagen who can add a d6 to an attack roll or save .5 + int mod/2 times a day. That is if you don't want to not burn inspiration out of combat too. On top of that you need a higher casting stat than any other 6 level casting class so you can be good at studied strike later and you have to be melee oriented to leverage that ability as well. You are much weaker than your parent classes at low levels now.Indeed. And most builds right now try to balance INT and STR in order to do something in combat. That should not have to happen, as the concept is not of a brutish character, but one that fights with brains and finesse.
From the 1st level the Investigator should have a source of precision damage (and I mean something that can be used multiple times against the same enemy, not only once a day). Otherwise, well see another great concept that will rarely be used because of poor combat utility.
I maybe want to be able to benefit from strength, though. I mean: strength should not be an entirely meaningless stat.
How about this mechanic:
Well-Considered Combat:
Starting at level 1, an investigator may add her INT to melee damage instead of their strength when wielding a weapon in one hand. If they wield a weapon in two hands, they can add their STR+INT rather than 1.5 strength.
Maybe further limit this to rounds per day (like INT+Level)
I love love love the change being considered for Studied Combat.
With the duration being Int modifier, and the damage bonus being added in, this class is good to go IMO. The path to 4th level will be FINE.
For those who are worried, truly these are the levels where the D20 overshadows static bonuses, and the only thing holding the investigator back is stat dependency which lies outside of combat, namely INT. At these levels, the investigator is a utility beast, and a fairly weak combatant, but no worse than a rogue who can't get in position for a sneak attack.
I am still a bit saddened by the restriction of Studied Combat to "melee only" but if that is too powerful, then it should be a talent or feat that allows ranged studied combat (within 30ft as per sneak attack)
The beauty of the damage increase is that it is essentially like giving them static minimum sneak attack damage. I would like to state as a matter of course, that the bonus damage from studied combat should have the same caveat as sneak attack wherein a non-lethal attack deals non-lethal damage ... just to be thorough.
Overall, I am very excited about the possibilities. The accuracy bonus is very cool, but mostly just helps to tackle the stat dependancies that rogues do not have, and the 3/4 bab issues. Even with it, the investigator wasn't quite doing meaningful damage at higher levels. With this change, the investigator should be able to contribute very well to combat, without overshadowing everything. And perhaps equally as important to me, it means that the rogue is still a better combatant, which seems like it should be the case.
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We have a lot of different options on the table, and we are looking into which one solves the issues the best.
What about reducing the cost to use inspiration to affect attack rolls? Keep the saving throw boost as "two uses" but reduce the cost to affect attack roles to only one point per use as a way of boosting low level combat? It's not like you'll have a ton of inspiration points, even at higher levels, and there are a lot of other things you can spend them on as you gain levels.
You'd just need to drop or change the Combat Inspiration talent.
We have a lot of different options on the table, and we are looking into which one solves the issues the best.What about reducing the cost to use inspiration to affect attack rolls? Keep the saving throw boost as "two uses" but reduce the cost to affect attack roles to only one point per use as a way of boosting low level combat? It's not like you'll have a ton of inspiration points, even at higher levels, and there are a lot of other things you can spend them on as you gain levels.
You'd just need to drop or change the Combat Inspiration talent.
Well I was talking about studied combat and studied strike...this is a different thing entirely. And something I'm sure you will not see. You are right, there are a lot of things to spend inspiration on. We don't see that as an issue.
Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?
Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?
There is. I believe the argument is to get rid of that talent or modify it and to make that talent's inspiration cost for attack rolls the default.
Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?
There is. I think that feller means for it as a way to boost combat effectiveness if we dont get Studied Combat at level 1 and Studied Strike at level 4.
Edit: Apparently this Antipaladin multiclassed Ninja. =P
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Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?There is. I think that feller means for it as a way to boost combat effectiveness if we dont get Studied Combat at level 1 and Studied Strike at level 4.
Edit: Apparently this Antipaladin multiclassed Ninja. =P
Rogue, actually. I kick it old school, and I don't think it is worthless class. ;)
Rogue, actually. I kick it old school, and I don't think it is worthless class. ;)Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?There is. I think that feller means for it as a way to boost combat effectiveness if we dont get Studied Combat at level 1 and Studied Strike at level 4.
Edit: Apparently this Antipaladin multiclassed Ninja. =P
A regular Blackguard aintcha? For the record, I don't believe it's a worthless class, simply one on the lower end of the power spectrum.
Think there'll be any talents to take advantage of conditions on foes? In play tests of that concept, I've seen it cause an increase in what I'd call "smart combat".
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Wait, I thought there was ALREADY a Talent to reduce Inspiration for attack rolls to a single use instead of two?There is. I think that feller means for it as a way to boost combat effectiveness if we dont get Studied Combat at level 1 and Studied Strike at level 4.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry for any confusion if people thought I was referring to Studied Strike/Combat.
You can currently spend two points of inspiration to boost a single attack roll, and you can take a talent to drop that point cost down to one.
Since one of the complaints I keep reading is that the investigator is a underpowered in combat at levels 1-3 (since they don't get Studied Combat/Strike until level 4), I was proposing making it cost only 1 inspiration point by default and changing/eliminating the Combat Inspiration talent.
Since using inspiration this way only boosts one single attack roll, and since inspiration pools are pretty small and have a lot of other uses, I figure that two points is a bit too steep a cost. If it were only one point, on par with a skill check, then a low level investigator may be more willing to take advantage of the couple time a day boost.