RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As for the whole scimitar/rapier thing, the class boxes itself in. You Must use a one handed piercing weapon (thats a short list), rapier is hands down your best option, scimitar is better if you have dervish dance. Crits get you back your primary resource, again this means that anything but a high crit weapon with keen/improved crit is a huge step back. Without changing those 2 facts, you arent going to get away from those two weapons, and scimitar will always be the best option by a mile if you can use dervish dance.
Mechanically I don't argue those points. In fact when I meant it boxes the class in 'it' was the classes limited list. If the weapon list is expanded it allows our Aldori duelists, our Rolendo style practicitioners, our 'wandering duelist' with the katana, etc etc.
As it stands, the swashbuckler can't swash his buckle with a sabre or cutlass, for example.
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If precise strike doesn't change they're going to need strength to damage constructs, oozes, undead, and plants.... flashbacks to the 3.5 rogue not being able to backstab anything is making me nervous about that.
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I have to add that looking over the swashbuckler the comments really make it clear that certain things should change.
Weapon Finesse at first level (i would remove the weapon limitations, they wield light weapons, not just pointy ones)
Change Precision damage bonus to only the I spend 1 panache to add damage.
Add charisma to damage instead of strength, probably at second level, with light melee weapons. I think this will prevent one of two scenarios that will happen with every swashbuckler, 1. agile weapon, 2. Dervish Dance. Allowing Charisma to damage will balance the stats out, they won't become a single stat class (your model dex will be everything just limiting use til they get the feat/magic) and Cha to me is as important to swashbuckling as dexterity.
I realize that martial type characters should have no 'mystical' abilities but it seems like you could describe Cha to damage as the ability to use speed, circumstance and opportunity to inflict additional harm on a foe, something like a graceful lunge that brings their whole body into the blow or a rapid series of blows quickly landed in the same spot.
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I moderately like the Swashbuckler and will probably build and play one.
That said, as a PFS player, I find that Evasive comes too late. Uncanny Dodge should be available at Level 3 and Evasion at Level 7.
Why not give the Deeds that don't require spending a Panache Point as class features? You could balance this by making a Swashbuckler who is out of Panache Points take the Fatigued condition.
Filling up the class features table with Bravery makes me feel that I've been shortchanged.
I would like to spend a Panache Point to stand up without any Attacks of Opportunity.
I think you need DEX to damage. Otherwise, undead become a real problem. Alternately, you could remove “living” from Precise Strike (and for the Duelist too, please!).
As an aside, I tend to take Monkey Style rather than Crane Style. Pathfinder rewards offense over defense and there is always healing.
A few things; there is one pretty important typo I dont get from the "precise strike" deed:
"As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache
point to her precise strike’s damage bonus on the next
attack. This must be used before the end of her turn, or
it is lost."
I have no idea what this means. Do you spend one panache to get one point of damage? I'm confuzzled.
Otherwise, it seems interesting. (the rest is theortetical, I will be trying to make a build tonight, test it out soon)
Positive comment: This class seems to be entirely built around one type of weapon (high-crit peircing) and does it well. The use of crit-regenerating panache is perfect, and swashbuckler weapon training encourages this well.
Negative comment: I agree with those who say finesse should be switched to level 1. What does surprise me however is that, unlike the gunslinger, the swashbuckler doesnt get dex to damage at level 5 for one weapon. The pre-existing mechanic of the gunslinger seems like a perfect fit with the swashbuckler weapon training.
Positive comment: The large amount of feats will allow this character to have significantly more variability than the average dex-fighter. I have been hearing that the paizo core design team dislikes dex-fighters, but it's nice to see them getting some love.
Negative comment: As others have indicated, (in it's current form) it seems like this character would be almost helpless against those immune to precision damage/criticals. Maybe there are mechanics hidden that circumvent this issue? If they have no other strategy than "let someone else take care of it" I will be fairly disappointed.
Well, that's what I can say. I'd be interested to see an int-centric archetype for panache, but we'll see what this gives. I hope to play one soon, though it surely wont be at level 1.
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Is it me, or is this class actually best if it does NOT bother with Dexterity?
You don't really gain THAT much from dex (weapon finesse, and +1 AC every 4 levels) and few of your abilities actually force you to light armor. Further, if I am reading the "Piercing", it still works when you wield your rapier 2-handed (which is legal). That'd mean that you could 2-hand the rapier and get the whole power-attack damage and 2-handed damage line (and free intimidate, which is easier to boost with Intimidating Prowess). Finally, since you don't get REAL weapon finesse, if you want dervish dance you have to pay 2 feats for it (or suck until level 6 where you can buy a +1 Agile Rapier).
Further, you could get heavy armor. A Paladin 2 / Swashbuckler 3 wearing heavy armor and 2-handing a rapier might be something to contend with.... and has multiple effects from having a high charisma. Wears heavy armor, has full BA, etc.
Thug would also be a great 1-level splash, since every attack you do gives you a free intimidate check and if it beats their value by 10 or more they are frightened (no save).
Just
You under estimate how much panache a swashbuckler will have. Most are going to use a high crit weapon (the best choice for them is the scimitar with dervish dance, other will probably use a rapier). With keen or improved crit, 1/4th of their attacks will be crits.Will be threats you mean, the actual crit rate will be lower.
That people are automatically going to rapier/scimitar and assuming keen/improved critical is a flaw to me. It boxes the class too much. Kind of like now how a scimitar is standard issue for magi.
You caught that they get Improved Critical with their entire weapon group for free at level five, right? It's not too huge of an assumption. ;)
A few things; there is one pretty important typo I dont get from the "precise strike" deed:
"As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache
point to her precise strike’s damage bonus on the next
attack. This must be used before the end of her turn, or
it is lost."I have no idea what this means. Do you spend one panache to get one point of damage? I'm confuzzled.
There are some Official Updates in the first post of the thread.
Basically, it doubles the normal bonus for that attack.
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Let me preface with the following: I love the core spirit of this class. The combination of Charisma and Dexterity is just what I was hoping for out of the swashbuckler, and the classes mechanics did not disappoint me. There are several glaring flaws with the swashbuckler, however, that I feel need addressing.
#1 — With the notable exception of the Bravery class feature, the swashbuckler contains no aspects of the fighter core class. In fact, it is far more accurate to say that the swashbuckler is to the duelist what the magus is to the eldritch knight; two options built upon a similar idea with very different mechanical approaches. This is not a poor design choice. However, the classification of the swashbuckler as a hybrid class is not appropriate at all. At its core, the swashbuckler is an alternate class of the gunslinger; nothing more, nothing less. Most of the swashbuckler class reads as a copy/paste version of the gunslinger with the exception that the class's abilities apply to a very specific subsection of melee weapons instead of firearms. It makes a lot of sense that this would happen, as the gunslinger itself was originally designed as a fighter alternate class. From a linguistic standpoint, swashbuckler and gunslinger have the same meaning, except that they hail from different time periods. In this respect, swashbucklers have the same relationship to gunslingers that samurai have to cavaliers or antipaladins to paladins, except the connection is based on time period rather than region or morality. A book called the Advanced Class Guide is allowed to have different types of classes, and maybe this is a good place for the developers to finally nail down what the difference between an alternate class, a base class, and an archetype is.
#2 — The class's primary mechanic, panache, leaves a sour taste in a veteran's player's mouth because it is literally an old class feature painted new. There is absolutely no reason that the gunslinger's grit should have been relabeled as panache, and in the long run this change causes more problems then it solves. For one, there is a good chance that an Extra Panache feat needs to be written. Magic items that interact with grit (such as a ring of grit mastery) do not function for the Swashbuckler and instead new versions of those magic items need to be developed. Finally, this is an opportunity to expand a seldom expanded feat category; Grit Feats. The idea of having a swashbuckler with the No Name grit feat is awesome, as is a Swashbuckler with the Signature Deed. Finally, as written changing the mechanic from grit to panache causes more trouble then it is worth. Several character types can easily grab a grit pool, namely the Holy Gun paladin. Whereas these pools might have stacked, allowing for interesting interactions, instead I now have two separate pools of points that mechanically function in the same manner.
#3 — As written, the Swashbuckler's biggest weakness is that its combat style is too rigid. Historically speaking, the term swashbuckler was (and still is) synonymous with 'pirate,' yet I can't build a swashbuckler who uses a cutlass because its not a light or one-handed piercing weapon. Instead of having a ridiculously specific version of Weapon Finesse, the Swashbuckler should be the first-stop for all melee Dexterity-focused characters; its abilities should function with any light or one-handed melee weapon so long as the swashbuckler is not wielding a weapon in his off-hand. Although the class would be called the swashbuckler, this simple change would allow for hundreds of different character concepts to emerge, including the Dexterous Rhonin with a katana, the Dexterous Pirate with a cutlass, or even a class well-suited to an Aldori Swordlord, because as written it isn't clear whether this highly appropriate class would even function with an Aldori Longsword.
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Adding dex to damage doesn't make this a onestat class any more than a strength based fighter or a gunslinger with dex... you know, the classes this was built on.
I understand the hesitance to grant one of the gunslingers best abils to a hybrid class that is getting other stuff... but its important to remember that being forced into melee is a huge penalty compared to a gunslinger. You are also getting ramrodded into a small junky weapon group.
Melee is its own big fat penalty in pathfinder. It puts you in danger and makes it much harder to get full attacks. The swashbuckler is also not hitting touch AC. So I think you can justify a straight up dex for str substitution.
If you don't, then this is a very underpowered class that gives up a ton to get nothing back.
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One thing I haven't seen anyone bring up yet (and please forgive me if someone did mention it and I just missed it) is the 1st level Deed Recovery. The way I read it, it's possible for the Swashbuckler to use Recovery to 5-foot step away from an enemy during the first attack of their full attack sequence, and after getting +2 against their first attack, deny them the rest of their full attack if the Swashbuckler has moved outside of their reach.
If that is the correct way to read that ability, it seems pretty powerful, not to mention matching the flavor of the Flynn-style Swashbuckler - "Full Attack, will you?! Your DPR and flurry of attacks means nothing to me, brute, I've dodged the first and it seems you canont reach me now! Ha ha!" or somesuch.
Is it me, or is this class actually best if it does NOT bother with Dexterity?
Yes... except for the riposte, which takes combat reflexes.
One thing I haven't seen anyone bring up yet (and please forgive me if someone did mention it and I just missed it) is the 1st level Deed Recovery. The way I read it, it's possible for the Swashbuckler to use Recovery to 5-foot step away from an enemy during the first attack of their full attack sequence, and after getting +2 against their first attack, deny them the rest of their full attack if the Swashbuckler has moved outside of their reach.
If that is the correct way to read that ability, it seems pretty powerful, not to mention matching the flavor of the Flynn-style Swashbuckler - "Full Attack, will you?! Your DPR and flurry of attacks means nothing to me, brute, I've dodged the first and it seems you canont reach me now! Ha ha!" or somesuch.
you can 5 foot step in the middle of your full attack, so if someone 5 footed up to the swashbuckler yes, it interupts. If they started off nose to nose then no, the opponent 5 foots and keeps swinging.
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One thing I haven't seen anyone bring up yet (and please forgive me if someone did mention it and I just missed it) is the 1st level Deed Recovery. The way I read it, it's possible for the Swashbuckler to use Recovery to 5-foot step away from an enemy during the first attack of their full attack sequence, and after getting +2 against their first attack, deny them the rest of their full attack if the Swashbuckler has moved outside of their reach.
If that is the correct way to read that ability, it seems pretty powerful, not to mention matching the flavor of the Flynn-style Swashbuckler - "Full Attack, will you?! Your DPR and flurry of attacks means nothing to me, brute, I've dodged the first and it seems you canont reach me now! Ha ha!" or somesuch.
you can 5 foot step in the middle of your full attack, so if someone 5 footed up to the swashbuckler yes, it interupts. If they started off nose to nose then no, the opponent 5 foots and keeps swinging.
D'oh. You're right. I forgot about that. Not quite as awesome as I had hoped, though I can see some corner cases where you could use terrain or formation to make it harder to take that 5-foot step.
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#2 — The class's primary mechanic, panache, leaves a sour taste in a veteran's player's mouth because it is literally an old class feature painted new. There is absolutely no reason that the gunslinger's grit should have been relabeled as panache, and in the long run this change causes more problems then it solves. For one, there is a good chance that an Extra Panache feat needs to be written. Magic items that interact with grit (such as a ring of grit mastery) do not function for the Swashbuckler and instead new versions of those magic items need to be developed. Finally, this is an opportunity to expand a seldom expanded feat category; Grit Feats. The idea of having a swashbuckler with the No Name grit feat is awesome, as is a Swashbuckler with the Signature Deed. Finally, as written changing the mechanic from grit to panache causes more trouble then it is worth. Several character types can easily grab a grit pool, namely the Holy Gun paladin. Whereas these pools might have stacked, allowing for interesting interactions, instead I now have two separate pools of points that mechanically function in the same manner.
Well, you do gain some flavor. The word panache fits better than grit. This is part of the class that we are waiting on playtest results to come in and see what people do and want to do with the class. That said, this one has been weighing on my mind since the start, and we will come up with a solution and it will be in the final class. My favorite option right now is a sidebar that just tells people that that panache and grit are the same thing with different names, and they do the same thing when it comes to feats, magic items, and other rules items that deal with grit or panache. But I can see the pros and cons of this approach, and I'll wait for more playtesting information to come in before I pitch my answers to the rest of the design team.
Why not just come with these answers now? We are waiting for playtest feedback on a number of things that will actually inform our decision on many items of development and even design philosophy with this book. Here is a secret. We have a good idea of where we want to be at the end of the book with these classes, but often are not entirely certain by the exact route on how to get there. The broad strokes are there, but perfecting them absolutely benefits from the strange and faceted lens of playtesting. It's the main reason why we do this. Players give us their feedback on reading the class, and let us know if it whets their appetite. The theorycrafters (for good and ill). And most importantly, GMs and players let us know how the classes actually played and their level of satisfaction with the class as it currently stand. We take all of this together, and it gives us a better sense of the best route to get to our design goals.
Swift Feint as needs some serious rewrite.
You can "swift" feint by missing with an attack that could normally hit as a standard action? Wha?
1) Nothing swift about a standard action.
2) Does this mean when you take a standard attack action, and hit, that you can choose to miss in order to deny the target its dexterity bonus to AC? How about, "you can feint as a swift action?" OR "when you hit an opponent, instead of dealing damage you can deny that target its dexterity bonus to AC for 1 round".
Either way... this needs a rewrite. Not that feinting provides any actual benefit for a Swashbuckler, but it could be useful if there is a Sneak Attacker in the group.
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I can't help but look at this class and be excited, because outside of Dervish Dance shenanigans, it looks to me like the closest there has been to a Dex-based melee class that can keep pace with the 2-handed weapon juggernauts that have dominated melee in PF thus far.
I know this has been mentioned several times already, but the limitations on Precise Strike seem a little overboard. "affects only enemies vulnerable to critical hits" would feel a lot less feast-or-famine to me.
I do like the Panache pool mechanic, especially since most archetypal Swashbucklers fight with high crit weapons like the Rapier and benefit from Improved Crit at 5th level, making combat a dynamic experience for Swashbucklers, though it would be fun to see an archetype that uses Int instead of Cha, since many fantasy & literature fencers fall into the "brains and discipline over brawn" camp.
I have to say that while Parry/Riposte do seem a bit expensive when used together, the ability to use AoOs as a currency in duels and other combats where there's not a lot of moving around and provoking AoOs seems pretty appealing.
The Swashbuckler seems like a pretty defensive melee class, between Parry/Riposte, Recovery, and Menacing Swordplay all making it continually harder and harder to hit the Swashbuckler. I suppose, playing one, I would be concerned that in many adventures I would go from awesome to near-useless if, for example, the party was fighting a lot of a common enemy type such as undead, making the main source of damage (Precise Strike) and an awesome debuff/defense ability (Menacing Swordplay) both unusable in the same fight.
On the other hand, it seems exciting that Swashbuckler Level = Fighter level for Combat Feats, meaning that Weapon Specialization and all of the really high-octane critical boosts that require you to be a high level Fighter (like the ones that allow you to get a free combat maneuver out of a crit) are available at no additional charge, which seems like it could be very, very good since many Swashbucklers are going to be getting in a lot of crits.
However, not outright gaining the Weapon Finesse or Improved Crit feats hurts. I don't want to pay double feat slots just to be able to build on my 15-20 crit range.
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Swift Feint as needs some serious rewrite.
You can "swift" feint by missing with an attack that could normally hit as a standard action? Wha?
1) Nothing swift about a standard action.
2) Does this mean when you take a standard attack action, and hit, that you can choose to miss in order to deny the target its dexterity bonus to AC? How about, "you can feint as a swift action?" OR "when you hit an opponent, instead of dealing damage you can deny that target its dexterity bonus to AC for 1 round".
Either way... this needs a rewrite. Not that feinting provides any actual benefit for a Swashbuckler, but it could be useful if there is a Sneak Attacker in the group.
Swift Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with at least
1 panache point can spend a standard action to purposelymiss a creature that she could normally hit with a light
or one-handed weapon melee attack. When she does, that
creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the
start of her next turn.
Yeah, it's a bit of a word salad. I think the intent was, as a standard action, to make an attack, and instead of dealing damage the target is flat footed until your next turn. Overall it's an okay ability. I don't see why a melee damage dealer should be giving up full attacks, but it could be fun.
Swift Feint as needs some serious rewrite.
You can "swift" feint by missing with an attack that could normally hit as a standard action? Wha?
1) Nothing swift about a standard action.
2) Does this mean when you take a standard attack action, and hit, that you can choose to miss in order to deny the target its dexterity bonus to AC? How about, "you can feint as a swift action?" OR "when you hit an opponent, instead of dealing damage you can deny that target its dexterity bonus to AC for 1 round".
Either way... this needs a rewrite. Not that feinting provides any actual benefit for a Swashbuckler, but it could be useful if there is a Sneak Attacker in the group.
Swift Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with at least
1 panache point can spend a standard action to purposely
miss a creature that she could normally hit with a light
or one-handed weapon melee attack. When she does, that
creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the
start of her next turn.Yeah, it's a bit of a word salad. I think the intent was, as a standard action, to make an attack, and instead of dealing damage the target is flat footed until your next turn. Overall it's an okay ability. I don't see why a melee damage dealer should be giving up full attacks, but it could be fun.
Yeah, that is what I got out of it... seems pretty terrible IMO. And there isn't anything "swift" about it.
Pommel strike is just miles better than the other level 7 deeds.
Non Gamplay feedback:
I really like the class but it got some problems that can be fixed.
Before the ACG we had the following roles covered:
Now if a party needs a full Arcane casters, a full divine castes, a full BAB class with heavy armor and a trap expert, all roles except the trap expert could be filled by at least 3 different classes.
If our GM tells us: You need one Arcane caster and one Divine casters. At least one has to be a full caster, the other can be a 6/9 caster. You also need a tank/full BAB class and a Scou/trap expert and you need someone that can be a party face and a skill monkey.
The combination of classes are endless except for the trap Expert. We just have the rogue. True, there are archetypes such as The Urban ranger, the archaeologist, etc that can deal with magical traps, but if we look at the vanilla classes there is only one class. One choice only. All other roles can be covered by at least 3 different options.
With a new full arcane class and a new Divine full caster all roles, except the Trap Expert, can be filled by at least 4 classes.
Please give players more options and don’t let a role that needs to be covered force them to play the rogue. True we now get the wonderful Investigator that can fill the role of the Trap Expert, but that isn’t enough.
My wish is that there should be at least 4 classes that get trapfinding. Rogue, Investigator, Slayer and Swashbuckler.
Even if Swashbuckler is a cool class it is a bit like the Monk. What role is supposed to fill? Make it a primary damage dealer or.....
Instead of making it as powerful damage dealer as fighter, Paladin, Cavailier or barbarian, let it be a secondary damage dealer, a party face, a skill monkey and a trap expert. Problem Solved.
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While I agree about the Rogue being the odd one out in terms of trapfinding, I don't think Swashbucklers have much to do with traps, in terms of flavour. A swashbuckler with a gun might shoot a lock off a chest, but I'm not sure if the concept favours a careful, safe-cracking approach.
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While I agree about the Rogue being the odd one out in terms of trapfinding, I don't think Swashbucklers have much to do with traps, in terms of flavour. A swashbuckler with a gun might shoot a lock off a chest, but I'm not sure if the concept favours a careful, safe-cracking approach.
I agree, no to traps
While I agree about the Rogue being the odd one out in terms of trapfinding, I don't think Swashbucklers have much to do with traps, in terms of flavour. A swashbuckler with a gun might shoot a lock off a chest, but I'm not sure if the concept favours a careful, safe-cracking approach.
True, but what looks cool in the Movies doesn't always work in game play. Errol Flynn never fought Zombies or dragons nor did he have to deal with magic traps.
This is one of my favorite classes, but I see an real danger this class will turn out to be the new monk.
Edit:
Flavour is cool, but don’t kills monsters.
In the movies the SB is agile, use battle filed control and can takes on any foe one-on-one. He can even take on multiple foes at the same time. He is a killing machine.
In pathfinder you lose all attacks but one if you move more than 5 feet and combat maneuvers sounds cool but becomes more and more obsolete as you level up. You can’t disarm or trip a dragon.
I love flavor, that is one of the reasons I like the Bard, but unlike the Bard I really can’t see what the SB is going to be good at.
Let him/her be a good damage dealer/a front liner or let him/her be a jack of all trades that can also deal with traps. The swashbuckler is what we make it to be. If it is no to traps, the let him/her be a full BAB class to be recond with.
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While I agree about the Rogue being the odd one out in terms of trapfinding, I don't think Swashbucklers have much to do with traps, in terms of flavour. A swashbuckler with a gun might shoot a lock off a chest, but I'm not sure if the concept favours a careful, safe-cracking approach.True, but what looks cool in the Movies doesn't always work in game play. Errol Flynn never fought Zombies or dragons nor did he have to deal with magic traps.
This is one of my favorite classes, but I see an real danger this class will turn out to be the new monk.
Edit:
Flavour is cool, but don’t kills monsters.
In the movies the SB is agile, use battle filed control and can takes on any foe one-on-one. He can even take on multiple foes at the same time. He is a killing machine.In pathfinder you lose all attacks but one if you move more than 5 feet and combat maneuvers sounds cool but becomes more and more obsolete as you level up. You can’t disarm or trip a dragon.
I love flavor, that is one of the reasons I like the Bard, but unlike the Bard I really can’t see what the SB is going to be good at.
Let him/her be a good damage dealer/a front liner or let him/her be a jack of all trades that can also deal with traps. The swashbuckler is what we make it to be. If it is no to traps, the let him/her be a full BAB class to be recond with.
You know... I totally agree with the mobility thing
How about this for an ability.
Rapid Strikes (Ex): When the Swashbuckler uses a standard action to attack or makes a full-attack, he can take a -2 on all of his attack rolls for the round to gain an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus.
Seems like it would be a good level 10/11 ability. Basically this is rapid shot for melee, with the exception that he can still make 2 attacks with a standard action attack while moving.
Helps offensive output, helps with multiple opponents, helps with mobility.
Did you just make that up, or is that from somewhere? I can't find it on d20pfsrd.
Like I said:
Exotic One-Handed Weapon
Estoc - 30 gp - 1d10 - 18-20/x2 - B or P - disarm, brace.THERE's your rapier upgrade people.
The estoc is a real life weapon, but it is not in the rules [yet]
In general an upgrade from martial to exotic should do only one of the following things: decrease the weapon's size by one step (two-handed to one-handed or one-handed to light), increase the weapon's damage die one step, increase the weapon's critical range one step, or add one or two special abilities.
This weapon has the same damage die as a bastard sword, a greater critical range, and two special abilities. IMO it isn't balanced.
It,s a one-handed nodachi that can deal blunt damage instead of slashing and can also disarm.
seems legit IMO.
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Since I'm working on a Swashbuckler character for a game that will hopefully begin next week, I decided to take a closer look at the class and here are some of my thoughts (two I've mentioned earlier, but I'll add them here for completion)
1. The Swashbuckler should receive Weapon Finesse at 1st level as a bonus feat. When you have a martial class that puts a lot of its focus on Dexterity, its strange that you have to wait until 2nd level to gain the benefits of the feat.
2. The weapon restriction should be done away with. Maybe open it up to allow light and one handed piercing AND slashing weapons so characters can use the Aldori dueling sword and the falcata. It would also not make Dervish Dance a required feat.
3. Like others, I think the Swashbuckler should have another saving throw bonus. Personally, I would go for Will over Fortitude. Will seems to fit the class better and we could get rid of Bravery.
4. Speaking of Bravery, maybe it could be replaced with an ability called "Finesse Maneuvers". At 2nd level, the Swashbuckler would receive a plus 1 bonus to their CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts. This bonus would increase by 1 for ever four levels beyond 2nd.
5. The whole "living creature with determinable anatomy" line from Precise Strike needs to be dropped. This is a relic from 3.5 that needs to disappear and fast.
6. The Swashbuckler Weapon Training ability should be similar to the Gunslinger's Gun Training ability, allowing you to add your Dexterity bonus to the damage roll of a light or one handed piercing and slashing weapon of your choice. They'd choose a new weapon every four levels thereafter.
While I think the Swashbuckler is a pretty cool class and is my favorite out of the ten, there are some problems keeping the class from reaching its full potential. Fix these problems, and it will be awesome.
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As of now, the Swashbuckler looks like a fun alternate fighter with potential to deal a good amount of damage, but it'd seem like an underwhelming choice around 10-12th level.
You mean when he's hitting a crit with Nat 15+ for 2d6+10+STR+WT damage? Or burning a panache to possibly get 2d6+26ish? It's not bad...
Most popular weapon choices will be: Scimitar, Rapier
Most badass weapon choices will be: Unarmed Strike (Snake Style), Picks (light if you want weapon finesse, heavy if you go Str).
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One of my biggest problems with the class is that a very limited resource (panache) frequently has to be spent BEFORE the roll is made. This is especially frustrating with parry.
Panache doesn't scale with level so even a character with 16 charisma is only going to have at most 3 panache available. Even if we assume you get back 1 per battle that makes it very limited. And buying a 16 charisma is pretty painful.
I ran a very limited playtest. In 2 encounters (level 3 swashbuckler) parry was never useful. It was either wasted on a blow that missed anyways or it was wasted on a blow that rolled so high that it hit anyways.
It also is unclear how parry interacts with a critical. If you beat the confirmation roll do you turn it from a critical into a normal hit?
As it stands, parry us insanely less useful than Crane Style.
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One of my biggest problems with the class is that a very limited resource (panache) frequently has to be spent BEFORE the roll is made. This is especially frustrating with parry.
Panache doesn't scale with level so even a character with 16 charisma is only going to have at most 3 panache available. Even if we assume you get back 1 per battle that makes it very limited. And buying a 16 charisma is pretty painful.
I ran a very limited playtest. In 2 encounters (level 3 swashbuckler) parry was never useful. It was either wasted on a blow that missed anyways or it was wasted on a blow that rolled so high that it hit anyways.
It also is unclear how parry interacts with a critical. If you beat the confirmation roll do you turn it from a critical into a normal hit?
As it stands, parry us insanely less useful than Crane Style.
The fix is to make parry only waste an AoO as long as you have a Panache available. If you succeed than you spend the panache to riposte. This would go along way to solve the problem of the swashbuckler having a low AC as the game progresses.
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My take on this is a bit different than most people's, since I practice historical Renaissance fencing with rapier (as opposed to foil, epee, or sabre as in modern fencing) as my other hobby. My commentary isn't all based on that, but it gives some perspective.
First, it's derring-do. :p
Second, Precise Strike is, as in the duelist, restricted to only working when not attacking with a weapon in the off hand or using a shield. First, this makes the buckler proficiency worthless. Second, you might as well say the hand must be empty; at least in Duelist you could two weapon fight and dedicate the off-hand attack to the parry ability (after all, you're not attacking with it) and get mileage out of it that way, but Swashbuckler doesn't give up attacks to parry, so you don't even have a use for that trick. Speaking as a fencer, parrying is what the off-hand weapon is for, and very few self-respecting rapier fencers in history would have been caught without something to use in the off hand (buckler, dagger, second sword, the scabbard in a pinch, what have you) outside of very specific fighting styles or formal duels. At any rate, I fundamentally disagree that the class's primary damage source should be limited to einhander fighting; there's a prime opportunity here to actually make two weapon fighting viable (bonus damage is one of the few things that can do it) and it would fit the historical context of what you're trying to make a class for here. The restriction should be removed for all these reasons.
Third, does the Dizzying Defense deed allow an attack (indeed, a full attack!) in conjunction with total defense? It reads like it does, just wanted to make sure that's intentional.
Fourth, why does Stunning Stab cost more panache than Deadly Stab? Killing the opponent outright seems a bit more powerful an effect than a one-round stun (which monks do from first level rather than nineteenth, I might add).
Fifth, Swashbuckler Finesse really should count as the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of prerequisites if it's not going to just come out and give the feat. The swashbuckler might want the dueling sword or scimitar feats that lead out of it in the Inner Sea World Guide, not to mention that the class should really be able to qualify for Duelist, and making the character take Weapon Finesse again just to qualify is 100% pure feat tax.
That's about all I've got for now. I may have a player play a swashbuckler in an upcoming campaign, and if that happens I'll be back with playtest reports.
I disagree. We have bravery, weapon training, weapon mastery and nimble (witch is pretty much the elusive ability form the free hand fighter).
What else could it have from the fighter? amror training? no (in fact elusive is a replacement from armor training). Armor mastery? no. Bonus feats? this class have those.
Actually, I do dislike how much old material is being used here.
Bluntly, you are incorrect.
The Gunslinger receives Gun Training at the same level as the Swashbuckler's Weapon Training. Nimble is a gunslinger class feature. So that means Bravery and the class's capstone share the same name as Fighter class features.
Believe it or not, but Fighter is basically impossible to truly make a hybrid out of because its a "choose your own flavor" class, which is one of the reasons it is designed well. It is a broad strokes class as opposed to a class with a specific theme. That's why swashbuckler looks better as a Gunslinger alternate class, as well as why gunslinger never clicked as a hybrid class. You can't hybrid-ize the Fighter because it has nothing significant to share. As the developers themselves said, bonus feats are the fighter's primary class feature.
I'm surprised I haven't seen any outrage yet over the non-standard probability of Daring Do. Adding a couple of points to a d20 roll is old hat for D&D and its descendants. Adding one or more d6 to a d20 roll seems pretty bold to me.
For those of you who are interested, it's not hard to calculate the expected value of daring-do:
E.V. = sum of results/no. of different outcomes.
Here the expected value is:
E.V. = (1/6)*(1+2+3+4+5+6 + (1/6)*(1+2+3+4+5+6 + (1/6)*(....)))
= (1/6)*(21+(1/6)*(21+(1/6)*(21+...)))
= (7/2)*sum(n=0,\infty)(1/6)^n
= (7/2)*(1/(1-(1/6)) = 4.2
So it's similar to a d8 roll but skewed towards 1-5 but with a really long tail.
The histogram is also quite interesting:
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Just for clarity sake, are the grit feats applicable to the Swashbuckler? Can they take them?
I am assuming yes because of this sentence under Daring-Do, but there does need to be some clarity. The sentence I am referring to is: "This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any
other effect that reduces the amount of panache a deed costs." on pg 41
Also I am assuming Extra Grit based upon the above also should increase panache by 2?
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Ok so here is some feedback after my game tonight.
I decided to take my PFS Ifrit out for a spin, using swashbuckler. I had GM credit up to level 3.
Built him with 17 DEX, 16 CHA. 13 STR and 12 CON, trying to keep it balanced for PFS. mithral chain shirt and rapier style, his two feats being Combat Reflexes and Weapon Focus (rapier) to try and maximize parries.
Overall: Loved the flavor of the class. I had a lot of fun with the roleplay, and used Intimidate more than any of my other characters. Very awesome in that regard. I really want to play him again some more to get more reactions and a better feel for the class.
What I hated: OMG, panache is seriously limiting. All the cool stuff that my class wants to give me seems seriously limited. At 16 CHA that is only 3 panache, but it's really more like 2 because you always want to save at least 1 for Precise Strike. So, a single parry-riposte and you are totally out of panache until you crit or down someone. We played a whole scenario (about 4 encounters) and I was only able to regain 1 panache during the whole session, by downing someone. Never critted once, not even a threat, with a 18-20 weapon. But that is part of the luck of the dice.
Suggestions: I was fine with getting pseudo-finesse. Not having power attack/piranha strike or using STR for damage also felt fine. With Precise Strike I was dealing 1d6+4 damage without trouble, on every hit. And with weapon focus, no minuses due to power/piranha strike and setting up flanks I was hitting quite often. Just never rolled that 18-20.
That said, unlike the deeds for the gunslinger, the deeds for the Swashbuckler really feel like the bread and butter of the class (while for the gunslinger they are more like bonuses, and reactionary). The gunslingers' main use of grit is reactive: doing something after it happens. The Swashbuckler's deeds however, are proactive. You have to decide to parry BEFORE you attack, whether they hit or miss you. You have to spend the swift action and the panache to double your Precise Strike damage BEFORE you attack, before knowing if you hit or miss. Because of these two things, I pretty much felt that I just spent all my panache for nothing, and really didn't get to use my abilities at all.
I never got to Daring-do even once because if I only had 3 panache, I really wanted to save them for combat. If I was down to 1, I never wanted to spend it.
My suggestions for improving the class after a playtest (level 3):
1. Increase the amount of panache you start with (3+cha mod), or make it scale with level (cha mod + 1/2 swashbuckler levels). Right now, all I want to do is take more "Extra panache" feats. Over and over. Please give us more panache.
2. Tied to above, I think the cost for Parry-Riposte is still insanely high. 2 panache and 2 AOOs. May be solved with a fix to #1, but still seems costly right now.
3. I'm happy with the weapon choices of piercing one-handed weapons. Fits the flavor and honestly, I'm happy to see a class that doesn't go to the BORING default longswords/scimitars. If you want to add more weapon choices to this class, please consider doing so with archetypes.
4. CRAZY idea: make the feat Signature Deed available earlier for swashbucklers, or baked in some way as a class ability. Something like "at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a swashbuckler can declare one of his deeds a Signature Deed. Works like the feat Signature Deed..." and so on and so forth. This allows each player to customize their swashbuckler to their taste. Maybe they want to go for more parry/riposte. Maybe they want more damage from Precise Strike...
Hopefully that was some constructive feedback for you all.
That said, this one has been weighing on my mind since the start, and we will come up with a solution and it will be in the final class. My favorite option right now is a sidebar that just tells people that that panache and grit are the same thing with different names, and they do the same thing when it comes to feats, magic items, and other rules items that deal with grit or panache. But I can see the pros and cons of this approach, and I'll wait for more playtesting information to come in before I pitch my answers to the rest of the design team.
This needs to happen like woah.
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I think a fair group consensus right now is this:
Parry and Riposte, used together should not cost 2 panache.
That should just be a change that flat out happens.
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I seriously believe that the whole limitation on light and one handed piercing weapons is arbitrarily limiting and honestly, speaking from a perspective that loves reading about european martial arts kind of silly.
This is a swashbuckler who cannot actually swash his buckler.
But beyond that I think it should jsut include all one handed weapons. This let's me actually make the longsword duelist, or the scimitar wielder, or a guy who makes proper use of an Irumi.
I just think there's lots of good fun to be had by just leaving the pirate film stereotype and entering the world of a good old fashioned classic early renaissance sword duel.
After looking at the class again, I must agree that, while the static bonuses increase swimmingly at the high levels, it seems to lack the "oomph" most classes get after level 10-12. I also recommend a "Rapid Shot" melee feature, although I would probably place it around level 14-15, so that it stays relevant for the endgame of a typical AP campaign and is something to look forward to. Placing it earlier would be too good, placing it later makes it irrelevant, because most players will never see it in action.
Of course I am a bit biased, since I had the very same feature in my own take on the Swashbuckler, located at level 15 and called Lightning Strike. :p
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Yeah, that is what I got out of it... seems pretty terrible IMO. And there isn't anything "swift" about it.
Pommel strike is just miles better than the other level 7 deeds.
Are we reading the same ability? Swift feint is AMAZING! Standard action to deny somebody their Dex to AC with no dice required? Yes please!
As to when you would use it? Maybe on all of those creatures that you can't get your precise strike damage on? Or maybe you are traveling with a rogue who needs help getting in his sneak attack, or the rest of your party just can't hit the bad guy? Distract him with your fancy footwork and lead your party to victory!
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Yeah, that is what I got out of it... seems pretty terrible IMO. And there isn't anything "swift" about it.
Pommel strike is just miles better than the other level 7 deeds.
Are we reading the same ability? Swift feint is AMAZING! Standard action to deny somebody their Dex to AC with no dice required? Yes please!
As to when you would use it? Maybe on all of those creatures that you can't get your precise strike damage on? Or maybe you are traveling with a rogue who needs help getting in his sneak attack, or the rest of your party just can't hit the bad guy? Distract him with your fancy footwork and lead your party to victory!
Are we even playing the same game? Please don't lead Paizo to believe this ability is good, because it isn't.
You're a melee fighting class: Dealing damage is your entire raison d'être. Furthermore, you need to be getting as many attacks as possible, in order to generate Panache at a useful rate. Now you're using a Standard Action to not hit the target, and the effects only last until the start of your next turn.
Beyond that, the conditions under which you cannot apply Precise Strike have nothing whatever to do with the target's Dex bonus to AC.
So you don't personally benefit unless you... spend a Panache point on Pommel Strike. Which (maybe) can't deal Precise Strike damage anyway, because it's Bludgeoning damage. Well, you might just get that attack back: If that target attacks you, and if you successfully Parry, and if you have two more Panache to spend on the Parry-Riposte combo.
As far as the Rogue is concerned, against most enemies you could just flank with him. It helps against enemies with Improved Uncanny Dodge, that's all. But even in those corner cases, have a look at the math.
Disclaimer: Math may be off because I should have gone to bed hours ago.
At Level 7, the Swashbuckler's damage with a single attack will be:
1-6 Weapon Damage Die
+7 Precise Strike
+5 Dexterity (what sane reason could you have for not taking Dervish Dance, even if you had to hold your nose and take the redundant Weapon Finesse feat?)
+2 Enhancement Bonus
+1 Weapon Training
Total with Precise Strike: 16-21 (avg 18.5) on hit, 25-35 (avg 30) on crit (remember, you threaten on 15-20 and crits are your fuel)
Total without Precise Strike: 9-14 (avg 11.5) on hit, 18-28 (avg 23) on crit
You're giving up that damage to enable the Rogue's 4-24 (avg 14) sneak attack damage, which can't crit. The Rogue's other damage isn't included, because he's presumably attacking whether he can get his sneak attack or not. Yes the Rogue can add more effects to his Sneak Attack using his Rogue Talents, but you can add more effects to your attacks using your Panache. Like doubling your Precise Strike damage.
Really only worth it against enemies that you can't Precise Strike but which the Rogue can still Sneak Attack (such as constructs and corporeal undead), and if the Rogue hits two or more times that turn, and if you weren't in full attack range on your turn.
Rogues at this level get one attack, plus one for TWF (no longer fashionable among the Rogue set, something to do with their attack bonuses), plus one if he has Haste on him. How often will that set of circumstances line up to make this maneuver worth it? And don't forget, you have a much better chance to hit than he does.
How does it stack up at higher levels? At level 12 (when PFS ends), the damage will be:
1-6 Weapon Damage Die
+12 Precise Strike
+8 Dexterity
+3 Enhancement Bonus
+4 Weapon Training (with Gloves of Dueling)
Total with Precise Strike: 28-33 (avg 30.5) on hit, 47-54 (avg 50.5) on crit
Total without Precise Strike: 16-21 (avg 18.5) on hit, 32-42 (avg 37) on crit
Sneak Attack is 6-36 (avg 21). Just as it was at level 7, the Swashbuckler's average hit without Precise Strike is a mere 2.5 damage less than the Rogue's average Sneak Attack damage. On the other hand, the Rogue now has two iterative attacks, potentially a haste attack, and two TWF extra attacks if they went that route. So in those rare corner cases, he's a little more likely to land those 2+ hits to make your feint worth it.
At level 20, the Swashbuckler's damage per attack will be:
1-6 Weapon Damage Die
+20 Precise Strike
+12 Dexterity
+5 Enhancement Bonus
+6 Weapon Training (with Gloves of Dueling)
Total with Precise Strike: 44-49 (avg 46.5) on hit, 92-107 (avg. 99.5) on crit (don't forget about Weapon Mastery!)
Total without Precise Strike: 24-29 (avg 26.5) on hit, 72-87 (avg. 79.5) on crit
Sneak Attack is now doing 10-60 (avg 35). The Swashbuckler's average hit, sans Precise Strike, is now 3.5 damage less than the Rogue's average Sneak Attack damage. Whoopee. Incidentally, the Rogue now has three iteratives, plus Haste, plus three more with TWF. He'd better be landing 2+ hits with his Full Attack now.
Edit: Well, this really got out of hand. Swift Feint needs to be a Swift Action, or provide an effect that is actually worth losing your Standard Action (let alone Full Attack Action).
I love the class but I agree it does need another good save, I would much rather have fort since it is a melee specialist class.
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Starting in on some real serious playtesting here.
This is Debbie Debug, the swashbuckler. I am gradually running her through a semi-abstracted version of Rise of the Runelords to see how things shake out. So far, not great, but let's look at where we're starting.
In practice, there are some minimum values for stats with this class.
Int is 13. I really can't see a way to play this class that isn't chaining feats off combat expertise. This also gives her enough skill ranks to grab what I really consider the essential skills for the concept- Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. She'd really like swim, might get it with favored class bonuses. She can live without Escape Artist because she has full BAB.
Cha is 14. This gives her 2 points of panache. 1 to spend on abilities, 1 to hold in reserve for the ones that require you not to tap out. Something people don't seem to have realized yet is that this is all she gets. These aren't like ki points or an arcane pool, this is all she's going to get in this playtest. If she can pick up a feat for more, she will, because 2 really isn't enough, but otherwise, this is it until she can splurge on a headband, probably up around level 12. If she uses a deed, she's done until her next crit or kill. If she even attempts a riposte, she's tapped out and depowered. As there is no extra panache deed yet, she is never going to actually attempt a parry. Too expensive to try, and besides her AC is high enough right now that anything that beats it will beat the parry attempt too.
Str is 9. That's the bare minimum. With 9 str, your light load is 30. A chain shirt is 25, a buckler is 5, a rapier is 2. That's over the limit. Either you drop the buckler, or you drop the chain shirt down to studded leather. A mithral shirt is a must ASAP, ideally she's probably going to want to ditch armor entirely and go with bracers. She's carrying 6 darts if ranged combat is required and that's it. Her carrying capacity is tapped out right now. She leaves her wallet at home, and she's not wearing anything under this armor. At 8 str she'd need to drop to leather. 10 only adds 3 lbs. People tend to ignore weight but it is a serious issue with this class.
Dex is 18 because it is the sun and moon to her. 16 from points, 2 from race. Probably would have been better off as an elf, but hey.
Wis is dumped to 7 because she desperate for points.
Con is 12 because I'm never going to use parry and I can't move in my full armor allotment.
For feats, she has improved unarmed strike and combat expertise. I'm open to suggestions for something more viable, but for now I'm aiming for improved trip. It should be noted, Debbie has a sister, Dawn Debug, who spent her first two feats on Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance. Dawn is a way more viable character, with +5 to hit and +4 to damage, and it's slashing. Good for Dawn, but I'm refusing to take feats this class emulates because come on now. I was planning to give her power attack, because power attack is a must for any full BAB melee character, but it has a minimum str requirement of 13. I'd need to completely trash her con and/or dex to make that work and neither a +2 for a primary stat or a -2 to con is a sane thing to do. She desperately needs a belt in the future.
At level 1, Debbie is just keeping her rapier in her off hand and getting some milage out of those darts. If she fought properly, neither her nor the goblins she's fighting would ever get a hit in, and it takes her a couple tries to drop one. So screw it, at least the darts connect.
Later, Debbie faces some skeletons. She's kinda up the creek. If she stabs, she has a 3.75% chance of a crit, which will do 2d6-7 damage. She can't even borrow a club unless she emptied all those darts out of her pockets first. Her best bet is to go total defense and let the rest of the party have at it.
Dawn has a hard time with these too, but she can hit them and do damage on anything but a 1.
Struggling through this, they level up. Debbie can now actually land a hit reliably, Dawn pretty much has a totally dead level.