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Chosen One paladin's familiar can LoH (with mercies IIRC) and it upgrades into an Improved Familiar, which includes some robotic options (such as Arbiter inevitable).

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But NPCs don't need these limitations since the DM can just limit himself intentionally?

Could Variant Multiclass rogue. That only takes feats.

Could look around third party/fan made archetypes

Savage technologist. You get to use guns, you get to use 1 and 2 handed weapons (the weapon masters handbook has ideas for trick weapons, but you could also just use the transformative enchant), and there are plenty of rage powers that are really good at simulating visceral attacks.

Treat it as a SU ability in your games if that makes you feel better.

It's not like it matters diddly unless you actually use anti magic.

Description: A sawtoothed sabre may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtoothed sabre), you treat the weapon as if it were a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting—the sabre remains classified as a one-handed melee weapon for all other purposes.

You can't actually finesse the sawtooth saber, if I'm not mistaken.

You are best off with an STR build that grabs artful dodge and some INT to meet the prequisits of TWF feat chain.

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Sorcerers having everything handded to them on a silver platter while fighters need to spend all of their resources on the one thing they can do well to do it up to par makes magic magical?

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Personal selling point: One of the stances lets the user move inside Time Stop.

Will there be buff time before battle? Be cause if not, I don't see how it's worth to do a battle skald like that, since you probably will not get into much fighting after spending 6 rounds buffing.

Sphere casting (from Spheres of Power) could be considered a bit simplified (expanded?) version of wordcasting. Give it a google.

Yeah, spectral hand + multi-use touch spells on an arcane trickster are pretty fun.

If you rolled with daring champion (yay!) or swashbuckler (meh), you probably wouldn't want to go into the PrC, as you lose out on too much scaling I think.

Warpriest is kinda good as a starknife user, since you get the improvements in damage dice and all. Also, that weapon master archetype can get all kinds of usually fighter-only goodies for throwing weapons, which is an option open for Desna's chosen weapon.

Mocking dance+whip means you got ghetto-pounce (since whip doesn't threaten).


You could also try "mocking dance 10 ft away with sword in hand, drop, draw reach weapon" if you are not afraid of the DM smacking you with a book.

Bah, I was so focused on the "consumables" cause I got tunnel vision.

Would pheromone arrows be allowed? Then I'd take scent as one of my rage powers, cause it's an amazing party-buff.

I think since deeds are one class feature, and both modify deeds, it shouldn't stack.

However, otherwise it's ok. It's not like you aren't gimping yourself for taking more than 5 Bolt Ace levels already anyway.

You could try the Valet archetype for your familiar instead, since it shares teamwork feats automatically.

Also, an interesting build would be carnivalist rogue, as he gets to share his Sneak attack with his little minion, into some other sneak attacking class (Arcane trickster, Slayer, or maybe vivisectionist alchemist).

Isn't there a heavy armor bloodrager archetype?

*checks* Ayupp. Steelblood

Doesn't even need to mess around with his swift actions to cast in full plate.

I honestly don't think that +1 bab over the first 4 levels is enough to justify it over Magus, but that's a bit more justified.

Sure, but how many of those do you have at levels 1-2? It's not a bad feat to grab later maybe.

Haven't followed through all the tweaks recommended in this thread, but you could go with a bloodline familiar instead of the Tumor familiar feat, saving up an early feat.

I wish spellblade just didn't exist, so nobody would trap himself by taking it.

If dips are an option, you'd save 2 feats with inspired blade swashbuckler for rapier-with-lace TWF.

Not sure if worth the spell level, but gets you on-line a lot faster. Plus hey, panache, it's good for... something.

Well, it's safe. You probably don't want to combine what you consider a huge buff to a class with all the other huge buffs (and lets face it, many archetypes were intentionally buffs) it got over the years.

Wouldn't have minded at least a few more talents that were archetype powers tho. At least something from MoMS. Maybe turning into tiger from that one archetype for catfolk.

I think dawnflower dervish bard+all the bardic buffs (dance of a hundred cuts) make bardic TWF-ing quite good, or at least adequate.

You need to get pounce from somewhere, but you have more options for that than non-caster classes like the Rogue already.


Reduced casting hurts, but if you want heavy armor and casting, it's loads better than taking those feats that eat up your swifts.

BTW, what race is your character? Maybe with Dhampir you could persuade your DM to allow swift lay on hands for yourself (like normal paladin) for healing. They get a + to CHA even.

Okay, the question is what are you willing to give up here, and how much tweaking is your DM comfortable with?

My first idea would be to go double bloodline and get psychic as your second; now all your spells are psychic spells and have no ACF because of armor.

You could also see if your DM would be comfortable using the Enlightened Paladin archetype for your anti paladin maybe? That'd let you go light armor/armorless.

Yeah, about what I thought.

Imbicatus wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I imagine it's because a lot of the inspiration for the class came from Avatar's water benders, of which not a single one can breath water.

Or the Furycrafters in Codex Alera, none of which can breath water. Or Marvel's Iceman, who can't breath water.

I can't think of anyone in Fiction or pop culture who can manipulate water who can also breath water, unless they got that ability racially.

Does Iceman even need to breath?

Unless his concept is "I want to suck at the stuff I do" he absolutely should worry about optimization on some level. Otherwise, what he wants to roleplay and what he is actually playing doesn't align.

I feel like inspired blade is such a waste for a gestalt partner.

I mean, you get most of the benefits you want by level 5, after that it's just +1 damage/level.

Which is not bad, obviously, but it's kinda bland.

UMonk and Magus should work pretty okay if you are allowed to mix in the flurry extra attacks to your spell combat. You can even use a monk weapon as your chosen weapon and flurry with that, or go with the Myrmidarch archetype, get weapon training and use the style switcheroo for flurrying with any sword.

There's nothing more comic relief than the good ole swashbuckler.

You could certainly make the argument that if you want an alchemist without bombs or mutagen (and hence "mutation" as a theme in general) you may need to consider if your concept would be better served with Investigator.

But usually the things they receive for trading those away still has distinct alchemist flavor, so there's that.

Cavall wrote:
I had a buddy play a crossbow user. Wasn't bolt ace. It's viable and perhaps sub optimal but still an option.

My character once picked up rocks to throw at enemies.

It's viable and perhaps sub-optimal, but still better than crossbows were.


Well then, there goes that.

I guess it's too imba compared to sonic thrustadin.

Okay, so lets get an actual strategy in here that's at least somewhat exclusive to eldritch scoundrel:

1.)Grab pressure points ninja talent
2.)Get telekinesis or sonic thrust
3.)Fire 15 sneak attacking missiles, each lowering STR or DEX by one
4.)Reduce enemies into piles of immobile flesh.

Pretty sure you can select katana/bastard sword for your black blade.

Why would you dip swash for katana exactly? How many levels?

Tiefling has "oversized demonic arm" on its deformity table, and a unique (and I think compatible with everything) archetype that does blood-related stuff. It's pretty bad, but it's free.

(I hope this wasn't what the rules discussion was about)

Would free-style fighter's level 3 ability stack with the reworked MoMS 1st level ability?

As in, could MoMS 1/Free-style fighter 3 would have 3 stances, right? Would net you +1 to attack once he hits MoMS 8 too.

It's not a bad dip anyway, since it has martial flexibility right away, which could be good to pick up style feats, and then you can use the MoMS "joker" styles for those.

If there's a bard 7 around, he can also cast good hope. Also, there's deadly aim.

Why does deadshot work better against hardness than DR? I may be missing something there.

Well, it's the only way an UMonk is going to get the ability to mix styles, so that's something as well.

Dead Shot is terrible. You trade out the damage you lose on DR for damage you lose on all the /hit bonus effects (like your dex, enhancements, inspire courage, other buffs). And you need to pay grit for this... privilege.

I mean, I guess it conserves ammo. That's something.

Guru-Meditation wrote:

VMC is not balanced.

Most options are bad, others come close to might-be being worth half your feats.

If you have a build that gets some bonus feats the steep costs are easier to swallow. Ipersonally would never again do any VMC on a class that doesnt get bonus feats.

Then again, neither are the classes in general. So it's just PF as usual.

Athos710 wrote:
Cult of Vorg wrote:
....why would you do that to a new player?

Because that's the character she wanted to play. She wants to focus more on RP than combat. I asked her if she wanted to do various things, i.e. Sneak attack, any casting, drinking extracts. She wanted to be able to do the social interaction skills, tumble around the battlefield, and know things about the enemies. She's probably going to end up being the flanking buddy most of the time. She didn't seem to mind that she's going to be fairly ineffective in combat.

Her companions are a dwarven hunter with a wolf, and half-Orc Druid with the Fire Domain, and a human Bloodrager (steelblood) with Destined Bloodline.

Being effective in combat and role playing aren't exclusive.

In fact, you demonstrate this yourself by asking for feats that are obviously combat related, instead of just picking up some noncombat feat like alertness or whatever. She doesn't mind sucking in combat anyway, right?

Nobody mentioning the Sepllslinger 1/eldritch archer X Named bullet+ranged spellsltrike+disintegrate for 120d6+ damage?

Your blackblade and kensai features stop advancing if you dip put. Unless you want to leave your blackblade in the scabbard forever (not that it doesn't become kinda obsolete on its own anyway), you need to keep on being a Magus.

ekibus wrote:

@LoneKnave...for your analogy..think of it this way guns or bat...in a zombie apocalpse...those 5 bullets really did a number to that horde...now here comes 20 more.... I'm sure it is a preference but I agree with it I wont play a magus out of fear of burning through resources. I like a decent balance.

The point is that the Myrmidarch still has the bat (or, in my original post, his fists), he just also has a gun. That has about twice the number of bullets than the Child of Acavna and Amaznen, since he got 6th level spells, not 4th, and pool points on top of that. And it's probably actually shotgun because spellstrike and spellcombat.

Deep Delver is the dwarven Magus archetype, yes.

You probably mean Eldritch Archer instead of Eldritch Scion :P

Anyway, I think ranged spellstrike for myrmidarch can be really cool as a backup strat, either going with the named bullet+spell of your choice for a guaranteed spell crit, or using your weapon with returning/blinkback belt.

Secret Wizard wrote:

And Fighter has a ton of feats to improve combat utility and does not need to juggle resources, concentration checks, dying due to rage ending when unconscious, etc.

It's a class. It has its things. You either prefer them or not.

Overall, Fighters post-WHM are low spectrum, sure, but they now have distinct advantages.

It can't really use WHM as well because it loses Weapon Training (myrmidarch however CAN use WMH because they get it). It also gives up a bunch of feats, and Myrm can just take combat feats for its arcanas (which is a terrible idea, but w/e).

The whole "doesn't have to resource juggle" thing is silly, it's like saying "fists are obviously better than guns because I don't have to count the bullets!".

There's basically no point to it beyond having "fighter" on your character sheet, unless there's something more. Myrmidarch gets weapon training (which makes up for 3/4th BAB compared to full BAB but no weapon training) and 6th level spells, along with features that actually mesh with its casting. Bloodrager gets Rage and can buff itself for free on rage/has the blood conduit archetype for further mixing magic and martial.

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