So this class practically obseletes Duelist? Good to know. I was hoping to make a two weapon fighter swashbuckler, but missing out on +level to damage seems like a huge penalty for not wanting to be a base class Duelist. There aren't many reasons to want to take Duelist anymore now that this exists. Most of the other unique things that Duelist has aren't that great or can be replaced by the bonus feats that Swashbuckler gets if you still want them. I'd love to have an option to make a two-weapon fighting swashbuckler, and I'd be super appreciative if the class wasn't practically forced to play with the exact same weapon style as a Duelist.
Favored Class bonuses, class feature progression, and class capstones are all there to add incentives not to take Prestige Classes. Archetypes are there to replace Prestige Classes in concept. None of the old Prestige Classes got the same power bump that the base classes did, and very few Prestige Classes offer better class features than staying pure-classed.
With all that in mind, it would seem to be a poor base class that did not render a very similar Prestige Class obsolete.
As for different combat styles, we'll have to wait and see if they were added to the latest version of the Swashbuckler, or if they will be introduced via Archetypes.
Yeah, I assumed the bleed was fluff for extra precision damage and could apply every hit. If it has a different nature, it would drop the DPR by some (maybe 5, would have to check).
So this class practically obseletes Duelist? Good to know. I was hoping to make a two weapon fighter swashbuckler, but missing out on +level to damage seems like a huge penalty for not wanting to be a base class Duelist. There aren't many reasons to want to take Duelist anymore now that this exists. Most of the other unique things that Duelist has aren't that great or can be replaced by the bonus feats that Swashbuckler gets if you still want them. I'd love to have an option to make a two-weapon fighting swashbuckler, and I'd be super appreciative if the class wasn't practically forced to play with the exact same weapon style as a Duelist.
Duelist obsoleted Duelist. Swashbuckler doing it better is a feature, not a bug.
So this class practically obseletes Duelist? Good to know. I was hoping to make a two weapon fighter swashbuckler, but missing out on +level to damage seems like a huge penalty for not wanting to be a base class Duelist. There aren't many reasons to want to take Duelist anymore now that this exists. Most of the other unique things that Duelist has aren't that great or can be replaced by the bonus feats that Swashbuckler gets if you still want them. I'd love to have an option to make a two-weapon fighting swashbuckler, and I'd be super appreciative if the class wasn't practically forced to play with the exact same weapon style as a Duelist.Favored Class bonuses, class feature progression, and class capstones are all there to add incentives not to take Prestige Classes. Archetypes are there to replace Prestige Classes in concept. None of the old Prestige Classes got the same power bump that the base classes did, and very few Prestige Classes offer better class features than staying pure-classed.
With all that in mind, it would seem to be a poor base class that did not render a very similar Prestige Class obsolete.
As for different combat styles, we'll have to wait and see if they were added to the latest version of the Swashbuckler, or if they will be introduced via Archetypes.
Yep, and good riddance. I much prefer the pathfinder approach over the PrC dipping rampage that was 3.5 where base classes only seemed to exist as paths to a prestige class.
This way, you are a duelist/swashbuckler from level 1, and this philosophy has, IMO, done nothing but great things for the game. (alright, well technically the swashbuckler is a swashbuckler from level 2 because of the odd weapon finesse placement, but I think that will be getting fixed)
As for the different combat styles... yeah I could see a few good archetypes in the Swashbuckler's future. Particularly the TWF style of rapier/main gauche. Though it is still very doable now in a roundabout way, because of this weapon property:
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.
A guardian weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his saving throws as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon. The bonus on saving throws lasts until his next turn. Only the weapon's own enhancement bonus can be sacrificed, not any enhancement bonus provided by other effects such as a greater magic weapon spell. However, the total of such effects is still diminished by the amount allocated to improving saving throws.
That may end up being a better option to help with the swashbuckler's saving throw problems than a buckler. Its not really the same as TWF, but it has a certain look to it no?
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All I'm saying is that I'd like my Swashbuckler to have a combat style other than wielding one weapon in one hand. I'm fine that it adopts a lot of the Duelist things, but to be forced into what is a prestige class style as a base class seems silly. Swashbuckler has the same limitations as an existing prestige class when base classes are supposed to be able to have some variety. I'm glad archetypes exist and maybe one will replace Precise Strike with other weapon style things. I was just hoping to be able to playtest something that wasn't a Duelist, and I extra hope that they actually do add in other things later.
Duelist obsoleted Duelist. Swashbuckler doing it better is a feature, not a bug.
Duelist is the only prestige class I can think of where you could play it from level 1 as if it were a base class and get no abilities overwpowered for their level. It's basically the first half of a (mediocre) base class.
Yep, and good riddance. I much prefer the pathfinder approach over the PrC dipping rampage that was 3.5 where base classes only seemed to exist as paths to a prestige class.
First: maybe in the games you played in, but I didn't really notice this in mine. Melee generally took advantage of PrCs, it's true, but melee needed the damn help - until Tome of Battle, anyway, at which point you could drop 20 levels into Warblade, Crusader, or Swordsage and call it good.
Second: Multiclassing was an incredible narrative strength of 3.5. Feature, not a bug, to help flesh out character concepts. If Pathfinder didn't want MC to be a thing, they should have banned it instead of trying to cripple it but then leaving it in.
Third: See above, but replace 'multiclassing' with 'prestige classing'. WotC dropped the ball on a lot of prestige classes, it's true, but they also published a lot of striking, flavorful ones that helped take a general character concept and turn it into a more narrow, vibrant one. Power levels aside, Ruby Knight Vindicator was a wonderfully flavorful prestige class. Shadowsong Infiltrator sold the idea of a special-forces commander and sold it well. Thayan Knight. Hell, Anointed Knight. List goes on and on and on. If Paizo didn't like prestige classes, they should've had the guts to drag them out back and shoot them.
I can't help but wonder if some of these concerns about differing styles will be addressed with archetypes. Has there been any hints dropped about archetypes that are tenatively planned?
I was hoping to make a two weapon fighter swashbuckler, but missing out on +level to damage seems like a huge penalty
People have been severely overvaluing precise strike, particularly compared to going two-weapon with a swash. At high levels, against valid targets, if you don't mind losing your str, sure, you're doing more damage. It takes a while though to catch up with the extra damage you get on a full attack with the second weapon if you're making a point of it.
The real key though is crits. You aren't giving up all your damage from them, so you're ahead on that front, and you're generally getting twice as many chances to land them, which means that much more panache flowing in, so anything you can find that isn't a swift action you can start throwing in along with the usual pommel swipes.
I was hoping to make a two weapon fighter swashbuckler, but missing out on +level to damage seems like a huge penaltyPeople have been severely overvaluing precise strike, particularly compared to going two-weapon with a swash. At high levels, against valid targets, if you don't mind losing your str, sure, you're doing more damage. It takes a while though to catch up with the extra damage you get on a full attack with the second weapon if you're making a point of it.
The real key though is crits. You aren't giving up all your damage from them, so you're ahead on that front, and you're generally getting twice as many chances to land them, which means that much more panache flowing in, so anything you can find that isn't a swift action you can start throwing in along with the usual pommel swipes.
And if bleeding wound can apply on every attack....shazaam!
But I still hope to see a few different fencing styles represented in archtypes. No harm in doing that IMO. I also hope to see a swashbuckler archetype that uses pistols/slashing weapons and has a nautical theme.
PrC dipping was a symptom, not the disease. The disease was "holy s#!$, the base classes suck!". Possibly also "holy s%$+, this continues my casting 1:1 AND I get class features now? Sign me up!" on the side.I sometimes wonder what the game would look like if it had been taken in the other direction and base classes had been cut down to starter nubs so you had to multiclass.
It woulda looked a lot like D20 Modern. No, seriously, that's exactly how D20 Modern handles its classes and multiclassing. Mind you, WotC still screwed it up, but...that's WotC for you. It's like M:tG is the only game they're capable of getting right.
For those unaware, there was a podcast last night by Know Direction with Jason Bulmahn as a guest and they talked about the Advanced Class Guide and the playtest and spoilered some of the upcoming changes to the classes.
There is a thread with mine, and others', notes here: Podcast Notes.
I was hoping to make a two weapon fighter swashbuckler, but missing out on +level to damage seems like a huge penaltyThe real key though is crits. You aren't giving up all your damage from them, so you're ahead on that front, and you're generally getting twice as many chances to land them, which means that much more panache flowing in, so anything you can find that isn't a swift action you can start throwing in along with the usual pommel swipes.
That's actually a really valid point. I like it. Forget the raw damage, I want more panache to do more cool things with.
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As for questions to bleed damage, I have always seen the bleed effect as the condition "bleed":
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
So as far as the bleeding wound ability, I would surmise that you can use it once to have them bleed for your dexterity modifier in hp damage, then switch to Dexterity damage, and Strength damage, and finally Constitution damage. If you used the ability 4 times and they do not heal check or cast a cure spell, they in turn would bleed every round at the start of their turn for (dexterity modifier in HP), as well as 1 Strength, 1 Dexterity, and 1 Constitution due to the changing of different kinds of damage.
In regards to the Boar style feats;
Boar style:While using this style, once per round
when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed
strikes, you can tear f lesh. When you do, you deal 2d6
bleed damage with the attack.
and
Boar Shred:While using Boar Style,
whenever you tear an opponent’s f lesh, once per round at
the start of that opponent’s turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage.
The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even
if you later switch to a different style.
From this I see the use of the same word BLEED but not the effect.
In Boar style, it states you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack, inferring that ONLY that attack gains the bleed damage. Because it is a bleed, It does not work against creatures normally immune to bleed damage.THIS IS EXTRA DAMAGE THAT CAN BE NEGATED BASED ON CREATURE TYPE
In Boar Shred, however, it takes almost a verbatim description of the bleed condition. At the start of that opponent's turn, he takes 1d6 bleed damage, and persists if you switch stances(assuming they do not cure or make a heal check.) THIS IS A BLEED CONDITION
Thanks to the developers for the quite rapid response, and I am glad to see that you guys are enjoying the feedback we are giving you. I am also happy to hear that you guys have made some changes to the swashbuckler class for the next release of the playtest, as I cannot wait to play one in our mythic game(assuming we do not loose our arcane caster heh)
Speaking of the next release, JJ stated it would be comming out this week? wasn't sure if there was a scheduled day or not. Any word?
As for questions to bleed damage, I have always seen the bleed effect as the condition "bleed":
A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect. In this case, ability drain is worse than ability damage.
So as far as the bleeding wound ability, I would surmise that you can use it once to have them bleed for your dexterity modifier in hp damage, then switch to Dexterity damage, and Strength damage, and finally Constitution damage. If you used the ability 4 times and they do not heal check or cast a cure spell, they in turn would bleed every round at the start of their turn for (dexterity modifier in HP), as well as 1 Strength, 1 Dexterity, and 1 Constitution due to the changing of different kinds of damage.
In regards to the Boar style feats;
Boar style:While using this style, once per round
when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed
strikes, you can tear f lesh. When you do, you deal 2d6
bleed damage with the attack.and
Boar Shred:While using Boar Style,
whenever you tear an opponent’s f lesh, once per round at
the start of that opponent’s turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage.
The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even
if you later switch to a different style.From this I see the use of the same word BLEED but not the effect.
In Boar style, it states you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack, inferring that ONLY that attack gains the bleed damage. Because it is a bleed, It does not work against creatures normally immune to bleed damage.THIS IS EXTRA DAMAGE THAT CAN BE NEGATED BASED ON CREATURE TYPEIn Boar Shred,...
In the Know Direction Podcast, Jason mentioned there was no definite date, but they hope to have it out by the end of this week, slipping into next week if necessary. They can't give a definite date because they are still working on things, but it's 'mostly done' and that it would be out 'soon'.
If you want more info on the Podcast, I posted a link to the thread just above yours, where you can find some notes taken about the Podcast.
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Thank you sir, I allready have. Found a great bit about Investigator removing SA for a sherlock holmes ability like This One and found it quite amazing actually!
But on the note of swashbuckler, bravo for the archetype for gun/rapier.
Makes me think of a proper swashbuckler(I always imagined the Drow hand crossbow/rapier thing was very swashbuckler ish )
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This is the swashbuckler I have been having a blast with:
Human
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Traits: Indomitable Faith: +1 to Will Saves
Crowd Dodger: +2 to acrobatics to move through another creatures square, and to avoid attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares.
Feats:
1st: combat reflexes, dodge
2nd: -
3rd: power attack
4th: improved unarmed strike
5th: crane style
6th: -
7th: crane wing
8th: crane riposte
9th: dragon style
10th: -
11th: signature deed- opportune parry
12th: weapon focus or iron will
13th: weapon specialization or great fortitude
Stat increases for level into strength, also the racial modifier. Weapon feats into rapier. What do you guys think? Obviously, a dip into MoMS would be better, but I decided to stay with the class for the playtest
This is the swashbuckler I have been having a blast with
It looks good, almost the standard pure Swashbuckler build, with the class as it currently stands. Dragon Style is an interesting choice, especially without Master of Many Styles. I'd grumble about Strength being the primary stat over Dexterity, but the class has had some rewrites so we'll see what the newest version looks like.
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I only took dragon for the mobility, I figured the swift action wouldn't hurt my action economy too bad if I only switched when I charged. I just feel that the class needs mobility, which it doesn't get on it's own. Hence the trait and dragon style. I to am unhappy with strength over Dex, but I refuse to dervish dance on a swashbuckler. It makes very little sense. Hopefully, the rewrite will allow for better Dex builds so I can phase out Str and dragon style and pick up more thematic feats, though I think a MoMS dip would be in my future were I to play this in an actual campaign. The save boost would be nice, and I would have more wriggle room with feat selection. I really hope thethe rewrite makes that unnecessary.
I to am unhappy with strength over Dex, but I refuse to dervish dance on a swashbuckler. It makes very little sense.
Just think of it as a sabre.
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I tried. I really did. I hope that the rewrite will have better saves, a swashbuckler weapon group, and an overhaul on the deeds. DD is ok, but I don't want to be pigeonholed into that build. I ran a DD bard once, I want this character to use mobility, parries, ripostes, and force of will to be an awesome melee front liner. I feel like pathfinder needs ways to make Dex fighters work without DD or the swordlord.
This class seems to deliver on exactly what it's supposed to, so...awesome! My only complaint is that it relies exclusively on piercing weapons. That sort of rules out the pirate swashbuckler with a cutlass. :)
Maybe it could be changed to just affecting specific swords?
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Second: Multiclassing was an incredible narrative strength of 3.5. Feature, not a bug, to help flesh out character concepts. If Pathfinder didn't want MC to be a thing, they should have banned it instead of trying to cripple it but then leaving it in.
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Um Multiclassing in PFRPG is much better than in 3.5. Paizo did nothing to make Multiclassing worse. They simply made staying in your class more attractive while removing stupid multiclassing restrictions. XP penalty anyone?
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I am trying to create a gnome swashbuckler for PFS, that would fit with the gnome fighter mini #22 from Pathfinder Battles: Heroes & Monsters Base Set Expansion.
I think it is thematically awesome, but find it hard to make it viable... especially at level 1.
Being a gnome, I would get more panache.. but I have to wait till level 2 to get swashbuckler finesse.. so it's not worth it to invest a feat in weapon finesse yet.. so.. I guess this build will have a hard time hitting until it gets to level 2 where it gets better.
Lets say I invest for a 14 in STR, getting reduced to a 12 by racial modification.. this gives me a meager 1d4+1 damage per attack.
So, with STR 12. my first level is really not interesting.
I'll hit at +3 for 1d4+1.
I like the concept, but mechanically it is sad.. at least at first.
I am trying to create a gnome swashbuckler for PFS, that would fit with the gnome fighter mini #22 from Pathfinder Battles: Heroes & Monsters Base Set Expansion.
I think it is thematically awesome, but find it hard to make it viable... especially at level 1.
Being a gnome, I would get more panache.. but I have to wait till level 2 to get swashbuckler finesse.. so it's not worth it to invest a feat in weapon finesse yet.. so.. I guess this build will have a hard time hitting until it gets to level 2 where it gets better.
Lets say I invest for a 14 in STR, getting reduced to a 12 by racial modification.. this gives me a meager 1d4+1 damage per attack.
So, with STR 12. my first level is really not interesting.
I'll hit at +3 for 1d4+1.I like the concept, but mechanically it is sad.. at least at first.
PFS is actually the only time that the missing Weapon Finesse at 1st level is no problem (usually it's all kinds of awkward in a home game), since you can grab it at 1st and rebuild for free!
PFS is actually the only time that the missing Weapon Finesse at 1st level is no problem (usually it's all kinds of awkward in a home game), since you can grab it at 1st and rebuild for free!I am trying to create a gnome swashbuckler for PFS, that would fit with the gnome fighter mini #22 from Pathfinder Battles: Heroes & Monsters Base Set Expansion.
I think it is thematically awesome, but find it hard to make it viable... especially at level 1.
Being a gnome, I would get more panache.. but I have to wait till level 2 to get swashbuckler finesse.. so it's not worth it to invest a feat in weapon finesse yet.. so.. I guess this build will have a hard time hitting until it gets to level 2 where it gets better.
Lets say I invest for a 14 in STR, getting reduced to a 12 by racial modification.. this gives me a meager 1d4+1 damage per attack.
So, with STR 12. my first level is really not interesting.
I'll hit at +3 for 1d4+1.I like the concept, but mechanically it is sad.. at least at first.
Why not just play a min-max Barbarian 1st level, then rebuild to Swash at 2nd level? That way you can have all that Barbarian fun for 3 scenarios, then 'retire' to the 'civilized' killing technique. :P
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I'm trying to work up a panther/snake style swash, but I'm going to wait until after the update to finalize the build and put it on here. I had an idea though, fix parry/riposte by giving the swash the crane style tree at certain levels, without having to meet the prereqs. That way, they can't stack the two. Of course, some tweaks would have to be made for balance.
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Panther style just sounds to me, like what a swashbuckler should be doing every time he moves around the battlefield. That kind of mobility, coupled with precision damage, describe to me the perfect swashbuckler. I think those added in with the crane style tree, are what the swashbuckler base class should be.
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have to echo the desire for an elf archetype that uses elven curved blade, I do not believe it would be overpowered and there is some nice synergy in that elven curved blades are harder to disarm, sunder etc and the elven combat training feat which likewise has some nice synergy with combat reflexes and this class.
Might have to give it a go and see what it'd be like.
I don't understand why soo many people are all over this weapon, for a swashbuckler no less.
Sure it can use weapon finesse due to it's curved shape. But the iconic rapier(or short sword even) one handed, light piercing weapons, going to a monsterous 2 handed slashing weapon????
In no way does this keep the swashbuckler feel. I think that people are just looking to cheese extra damage out of it.(2h power attack, with dex and a half, and d10 vs d6) I would be against this being an option for my groups.(Most of my groups are power gamer min/max people as well)
I'm mostly for an elven archetype that can use the curve blade because it evokes the kind of traditional imagery that you would associate with an elf. Nimble, light armor, and a graceful elven weapon instead of a honking greatsword. It's tough to make that happen without going strength, which is a shame.
I'm mostly for an elven archetype that can use the curve blade because it evokes the kind of traditional imagery that you would associate with an elf. Nimble, light armor, and a graceful elven weapon instead of a honking greatsword. It's tough to make that happen without going strength, which is a shame.
Akin to the Elven Wardancers of Warhammer...
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TWF would be an easy one me thinks. Just cut the precision damage in half and give them bonuses for fighting Florentine.
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Swashbuckler in my mind is all about mobility and maneuvers. Any character that runs and tumbles across the battlefield while humiliating his opponents will fit, no matter what his weapons are. Heck, I could even imagine a heavy-armored dwarf swashbuckler (maybe as a racial archetype) as long as it plays the same.
I think an archetype that focuses with natural weapons would be nice.
So. how does a GM build a swashbuckler NPC with standard stats of
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8?
Where do the 10 and the 8 go?
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I think one of the reasons people have such different views of how the swashbuckler should be like is that the concept is all about how the character does things far more than what he actually does. Having charm, grace, speed, and dynamic action makes a swashbuckler, not the specific weapons or fighting style.
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I think one of the reasons people have such different views of how the swashbuckler should be like is that the concept is all about how the character does things far more than what he actually does. Having charm, grace, speed, and dynamic action makes a swashbuckler, not the specific weapons or fighting style.
Absolutely agreed. I'm just happy the class feels like a Swashbuckler. :)