say level 10 character started with 16 int (likely seeing as class is increasing strength or dex.) They probably have +4 from Int, trained proficiency +2 so +16 to hit with the spell so 40% chance of actually hitting with the spell attack. and thats after having to have already hit with the weapon attack which is probably only on +18 or 19 itself for a 45 or 50% chance for that hit. If they whiff, they can try again next round, but are still only on 45-50% chance, if they used the magus potency it goes up to 55-60% to hit followed by the 40% chance to also hit with the spell. The above really doesn't feel acceptable with such limited slots. the above was vs a clay golem
Those are just bad numbers to be working with for your limited resource abilities when they're as limited use as they are for the magus at the moment. they need more slots or more accuracy, technically doesn't matter which one I guess, although generally more slots makes for a more interesting character with options outside of just hitting stuff - something I like about games like RuneQuest.
would need to be a huge boost. they're going to have a 25% success rate on average with those 4 slots. i.e. 1 successful use per day. if it stays as is, honestly id have their spellcasting proficiency progression be the same as their weapon one. And i'd include the potency in the casting of spells through weapons too.
I guess an interesting thing about C would be that if you took wizard dedication and arcane breadth youd end up with 3 slots per level. 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/2/2
would perhaps be too much - this is the issue, they kind of wrote themselves into a hole with the mulitclass system, although to be fair a wizard could pick up sorcerer multiclass feats too so its not exactly a "new" issue. with martial magic it would actually be 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/2/2
or if they went with E and the player took a wizard dedication plus arcane breadth 0/0/0/0/0/0/2/2/2
another option would be to change martial magic to work similarly to arcane breadth and be +1 slot to all levels except the two highest.
thats a fair point. In which case, perhaps the class should just replace martial caster with some kind of series of expanded casting feats that have can be taken at certain levels to add more spell slots to specific levels - much like the spellcasting feats for multiclassing. or, just give the base class more slots and probably improve its proficiency progression for spellcasting. p.s. part of what made me think to suggest the thing with multiclass feats was inspired by PF1 where a magus of 10th level counts as a fighter 4 levels lower for any fighter specific feats, and also can learn wizard spells that fell outside of its normal spell list at certain points.
IMO It would be best with slots working like either option B or C above. If it went for option C I'd also consider bumping the expert and master proficiency for spellcasting to be a couple levels earlier (9 and 17), or if it went for option E, I'd have its proficiency progression straight up match a pure casters for expert and master (7 and 15). I think it going for option C would be best because it keeps the "oomph" for a couple of splurge spells but allows them to have "fun" with lower level slots in less dangerous encoutners. Another option, would be for the Magus to count as having both the fighter and wizard dedication feats (without actually having them, so not getting the actual benefits of those feats) for the purpose of qualifying for wizard or fighter multiclass feats... It would make sense as the magus is literally a blend of combat prowess and magic prowess. I think the way *I* would have done this class would have been:
The above means that essentially the multiclass fighter/wizard feats are class feats and means you can push the magus more towards caster or wizard if you want, or take base magus feats that blend the two. Importantly, you skip the tax of dedication feat because logically you're already dedicated to both. The weapon/armour bonus on the spell attack/DC would help make their spells a bit more reliable. The extra slots at lower levels just help the class have a bit of (less powerful) juice so they still feel like their class even when out of slots - and more importantly allows them to benefit from being a prepared caster. I'd go for C over B as it overall still has significantly fewer slots in its base chassis, and keeps the oomph they clearly want it to have with a couple of slots at the higher levels.
Hoping to hear back on how exactly focus power works based on the class table and class text, do you think we might see an update to the pdf any time soon? Or just updated wording in a comment here would be cool, I'll be playing one soon and I'd like to make sure the DM and I both understand the class. Personally feel something as seen below would be best:
Honestly, it'd make sense to also have all wizards always have energy ray as a known spell and have it always count as being prepared.
reading the focused power class ability again vs the class table... is the intent actually supposed to be: at 2nd level your 1d3 damage level 0 spells change to 1d4. then at every even level after that the damage increases by 1d4. quoting the relevant part of the class ability:
The class table has the ability at level 2 have focused power (1d4) which suggests the damage for focused power actually becomes 1d4 at level 2, however that doesn't match the above text. I wonder if the wording should just be:
But honestly, I feel like a class ability that requires you take a specific spell for it to be of any use feels slightly wrong, unless you want to also give that spell "for free". So I'd actually change the class ability to be gained at 1st level and read as:
This then means that its a complete class ability. Alternatively, I'd suggest simply saying the damage of any level 0 spell that does damage increases by 1d4 at every even wizard level and leave it as simple as that. "Additionally, whenever you cast a 0-level wizard spell that deals damage on a successful attack, the spell’s damage is increased by 1d4 damage, plus an additional 1d4 damage for every 2 wizard levels beyond 2nd."
I still feel you ought to pick some other skills to be class skills, I can't think of any other class that has so few class skills that it cannot spend all it's starting skills on class skills. Also, even if wizard had computers as a class skill, technomancers get a scaling insight bonus to both computers and mysticism that starts at +1 on level 3 and eventually hits +6. So I certainly wouldn't consider it kicking and taking school money. The above is why I suggested wizards should actually get a similar scaling bonus on mysticism (based on them knowing so much and the themes you put forward of them archiving lore) instead of using int for mysticism (no such bonus suggested for computers, that would remain unique to engineers and technomancers). I'd suggest:
I suggest diplomacy and sense motive as learning stuff sort of makes sense and it adds some minor social skills to the class. Then either computers (they use a computer for their spell book so makes sense) or perception (it's a handy skill and fits someone that spends their time gathering lore from hidden places. Could even add both so that even an 18 int starting wizard can't have all the class skills.
It feels like the classes could do with making use of resolve more, tying more abilities to spending resolve points would be good. The level 20 capstone for the wizard also feels a bit lack lustre compared to any of the core classes, something to show the mastery of magic would be better as a final capstone. Maybe something where you can spend resolve to cast spells below a certsin level or something along those lines. I also feel the wizard needs at least a couple more class skills, it's an intelligence based class which means most wizards will have 8 skill points at the start. I'd suggest adding perception, medicine and computers to the list (computers because the class still uses a computer for its core abilities). Finally, I'd consider granting the class a skill bonus to mysticism that scales at a similar rate to the technomancer. Possibly even Mysticism and one of the science skills. I'd suggest that as a benefit instead of making mysticism be keyed to intelligence.
spellcritical from eldritch knight seems like it should work too... Quote:
so, the trigger is confirming a critical hit, which can of course happen as part of an AoO. It's a swift action, not an immediate action though... thoughts?
simply allowing all swift actions would give Eldritch Knight a power boost... (well kind of) as they could then use their spellcritical ability out of turn. although, considering most people feel the class sucks anyway, i dont know that I'd call that a negative (I actually play one, which is why i bring the above up). I still think that in my game I run, id err on the side of sticking to the specific list given though.
I think I'd err on the side of what RumpinRufus has said, it specifically calls out a list of free actions at the moment, so unless specific feats add to that list explicitly I'd avoid it. (for any wondering, I'm a player in a recently started pathfinder campaign, and am dming a different campaign as well, I'm a pretty seasoned DM and player but like to get clarification 'from the masses' when im not sold on something)
I posted a thread about how the hurtful feat worked here:
blackbloodtroll noted that some free actions can be taken out of turn as per FAQ here:
this then brought up the concept of using enforcer or cornugon smash as part of an attack of opportunity to trigger the hurtful feat and get an extra attack at that point. blackbloodtroll wrote:
so, could something like this work? either doing nonlethal damage in some manner as part of an AoO to trigger Enforcer, intimidate for free and use hurtful? or use power attack in your turn, then if you AoO, intimidate for free and use hurtful?I thought only immediate actions can be used out of turn, but blackbloodtrolls logic was worth querying
blackbloodtroll wrote:
enforcer lets you intimidate if you caused non lethal damage, so you'd need to have the orc feat that lets you do a point of non lethal damage with each hit to really make it work well... but otherwise, yeah in your turn itd work with enforcer. not gonna work with an AoO as noted though. It definitely feels like there is neater synergy there for Cornugon Smash though.
Hi All, I initially posted this as a reply in the hurtful feat discussion over on the advice board, but thought it might be better placed here... what attack bonus do you use for the hurtful feat? e.g. say I've got a level 11 character with a BAB of 9... so two attacks normally at 9/4 respectively. i've also got cornugon smash. my AB when taking into accounts Dex (slashing grace), weapon focus, sword scion trait and a +2 weapon is therefore +16/11 normally. I use power attack which at this point reduces those to 14/9 respectively I successfully intimidate my opponent so use a swift action to get another attack... what is that attack resovled as? +16? +11? +14? +9? or something else? I'm wondering as my swash/wiz/eldritch knight/hellknight signifier will be taking this chain as it is quite fitting (hellknights emulate devils, cornugon smash!) likewise, if i used the above with haste... i'd be on +15/+15/+10 with power attack, I then would get another attack, as a swift action from hurtful... if thats also at +15... thats pretty effective as the build would eventually have a BAB of 17 with cats grace, haste, greater heroism, a +5 weapon, weapon focus, greater weapon focus and sword scion the characetr would have an AB of...
what attack bonus do you use for the hurtful feat? e.g. say I've got a level 11 character with a BAB of 9... so two attacks normally at 9/4 respectively. i've also got cornugon smash. my AB when taking into accounts Dex (slashing grace), weapon focus, sword scion trait and a +2 weapon is therefore +16/11 normally. I use power attack which at this point reduces those to 14/9 respectively I successfully intimidate my opponent so use a swift action to get another attack... what is that attack resovled as? +16? +11? +14? +9? or something else? I'm wondering as my swash/wiz/eldritch knight/hellknight signifier will be taking this chain as it is quite fitting (hellknights emulate devils, cornugon smash!) likewise, if i used the above with haste... i'd be on +15/+15/+10 with power attack, I then would get another attack, as a swift action from hurtful... if thats also at +15... thats pretty effective as the build would eventually have a BAB of 17 with cats grace, haste, greater heroism, a +5 weapon, weapon focus, greater weapon focus and sword scion the characetr would have an AB of...
are there really likely to be many situations where i'd want to launch fireball as part of a full attack action though? it seems to me like if im in melee with an enemy, dropping a fireball is a bad idea, but a burning arc might be perfect? I should note that metamagic master doesn't allow spells above third level, and that my opposed schools are enchantment and necromancy (Divination(scryer) specialist)
Hey guys, I am heading towards eldritch knight/hellknight signifier combo, as such I will usually be wearing at least a mithral be eat plate, but obviously I will have spell critical to worry about, my theory is choose a spell that is worth casting as part of spell critical and prepare it as a still spell. I will probably be taking extend spell too, so if it's a spell that combines with that too.. great.
yeah, for the Eldritch Hellknight build, I think it'd benefit from additional traits and one of the two traits that lets you reduce the cost of a metamagic feat by one on a single spell at level 14 instead of greater weapon focus. And Still spell instead of quicken spell. that way, I select a spell I've found I use a lot, cast it as part of a spell critical, without worrying about ASF and rely on arcane armour training in near enough any other scenario. second trait would be the one that adds +1 to will saves and a further +1 in certain situations (cant remember the name).
i prefer wizard spell list, and level 9 spells honestly, likewise 4 attacks a round will be nice. The magus/wizard idea was more theorycraft, thought perhaps it'd be a viable choice to allow me my love of wizard spells whilst getting the one (and only) ability of magus I really like (spell combat). suggestions on how to make the Eldritch Hellknight better would be appreciated though.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
How does the updated build fair in your mind? (swashbuckler(inspired blade)1/wizard(shadowcaster scryer)1/Eldritch knight 10/Hellknight Sig 8) Cap. Darling wrote: You can take arcane strike, the rounds you attack you wont need to spend the swift on arcane armor thingie. One more meta magic feat and Spell perfection Might also be worth a look. except arcane strike (and tbh.. even arcane armour training) interfere with spell critical, which should go off pretty often with a 15-20 crit range weapon. Should probably pickup still spell at 15th (when id get spell critical) i guess, so that those free quickened spells arent wasted. Maybe instead of quicken spell? Or where would you slot arcane strike in?
yeah im sticking with the character as I have him. swashbuckler(inspired blade)1/wizard(shadowcaster scryer)1/Eldritch knight 10/Hellknight Sig 8 traits: forlorn and magical knack
level 1 feats: fencing grace and medium armour prof (he has a flaw which gets him an extra feat).
no idea what feats to take for 15th, 17th or 19th. gets BAB 17, spellcasting as an 18th level wizard (CL20)
big issues: no free spells on level ups mean thats a LOT of spells he has to buy. any thoughts or suggestions on the above? (at earliest convenience, pickup a mithral breastplate or maybe just a mithral shirt... the latter is probably better at lower levels as i could ignore all spell failure, eventually, the former is better, and even later, mithral full plate would be an option too) Originally this character was going to use slashing grace and a longsword, but for backstory he ended up being an aspiring member of the order of the scar, whom favour rapiers.
Hey guys, so i'm pondering the possibility of a magus/wizard build and how playable it'd be. theory would be to go with magus up till 5th, take a level of wizard (scryer), then back to magus for another level. Then take Eldritch knight from levels 8-17 and finally top off with either 3 more levels in wizard, or 3 levels in something like hellknight enforcer. For Magus, i think the first arcana would be totally open to suggestions, but the level 6 arcana would be Broad Study. the result of the above is a character with the following at the end (assume 22 intelligence) BAB of 16 (so 4 attacks vs the magus' normal 3)
saves of 11/6/12 has access to spellcombat and spellstrike with any of the above spells
cannot cast the wizard type spells with armour on, or has to use arcane armour training to do that... if picking up the latter, swap the final 3 wizard levels for hellknight, netting a couple more abilities and slight ability to ignore ASF without using any kind of action. It FEELS like the above character would be pretty versatile and probably more useful than a magus outside of combat due to access to the wizard spell list. I've got a swash/wis/ek/hellknight im playing that ends up with marginally better BAB (17), slightly worse saves and 3 9th level spells a day, but this feels like it'd be pretty comparable, especially if the right traits/feats and spells are taken. Thoughts? Suggestions?
As I say, it gets to bab 17 with the correct combo of classes. I think melee will be highly important as the other party members are an inquisitor, rogue (skill monkey rather than combat built - but will be a good flanker) and a necromancer. Dimensional dervish is still a likely feat chain to take, this character will have better than cleric hp... (11 d10, 1 d6 and 8 d8 + plus 20) thanks to 8 levels in enforcer he'd be able to cast spells in armour with an asf of 30. Also thanks to the reasonable charisma he has, he can use the enforcer special abilities a fair number of times a day. BAB would be... 1 from swashbuckler, 10 from eldritch knight, 6 from 8 levels of hellknight. so with the above, what feats to take? Obviously has to take medium armour prof and arcane armour training at some point before entering hellknight, but he has a total 12 feats to gain from where he currently is, I'd want extra panache, medium armour prof and arcane armour prof, so 9 more fests to take. Suggestions?
So what do people think? Is going for eldritch knight and arcane archer a good plan? Or would I be better off going into hellknight? I believe my BAB maths for the hellknight was wrong and I actually only get to BAB 16. So hellknight/eldritch knight gets less saves by 1 on both fort and reflex, less attack by 1, less class skills. But has a smaller feat tax (2 vs 3) and level 9 spells a level earlier. It also requires I be a scryer wizard.
is that a foresight or scryer diviner or standard? is the free run from having the fleet footed elf racial trait? i originally had that but swapped it away as i didnt like losing the bonus on perception checks. lots of archery feats, significantly less melee feats, does that mean you'd recommend archery as the focus over melee? are the crafting feats because you have little/no access to items generally? assuming the run feat comes from the elf racial trait and you have something like +15 to init? (4 dex, 4 improved, 2 reactionary, 2 elf, 3 divination) whilst i know going first is important, is improved init really a good use of a feat? same goes for critical focus, wouldn't greater weapon focus be more useful? i guess not as its weapon specific... in the above, are you using a familiar, a bonded item or an archetype?
or.. if the DM was okay with it, swap teleportation for scryer school, go EK from level 3-6, picking up medium armour prof and arcane armour training on level 3. Then go into Hellknight levels 7-11, back to EK levels 12-17, then 2 more levels of wizard and finish off with another level in hellknight... that'd get saves of 9, 13, 10... so the saves are not quite as good. BAB still would be 17 though
so basically, trading a point of fort and a point of reflex, for another level of spellcasting, also frees up a feat, and grants him the ability to cast spells in armour fairly well, and to make doing that an immediate action (freeing up the swift for spell critical). Trouble with the above, is it loses the versatility of the imbue arrow ability and loses 6 skill points. No idea what feats would be worth taking in the above character though? |