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Okay, the self-proclaimed expert on playing a dragon is here. Time for some knuckle cracking and getting to work.
Initial look: I like it. Alot.
Alot like you too.
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Initial look: I like it. Alot.
Now I am visualizing an Alot with Bloodrager class levels. He has alot of anger. He's alot bigger than you. He has alot of hit points.
:3
Alot better than you at everything.
This is a cool class and the bloodlines seem really fun. My first impression is that the spells come so slowly and so late they seem to not have much effect. I think I'd rather have a 3/4 BAB with more spells, more like a magus. Why would I forgo a full attack at level 6 doing d12+6 damage twice to cast my (only) first level spell? (I have no experience playing at levels past 5 so maybe it is worthwhile at higher levels.)
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Compare it less to the Magus and more to the Paladin or Ranger.
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Alright. I am letting people run these in a couple of games I actually use. So no guarantee that they will advance normally. I have a Bloodrager in my Rise of the Runelords on Saturday (We start this saturday). We are also doing a full test on friday with 5 of these classes and just doing battles to see how it work. Bloodrager is also a class in that test. I will make sure to not whether my posts are from my Saturday group or my Friday group.
These are being tested under my normal rules. So my players roll their stats and I will note if any other house rules change how the game plays. Most of my rules are clarifications.
I am having them write their initial impressions and their impression while building the class fro the game. My Saturday play forgot to write the initial impression. He did write the impression he got while building. I am pulling his impression from the Roll20 site and so this will be in his words. I can ask him questions if you need anything clarified.
Saturday Building Impression:
From Building the character it seems the Bloodrager itself is a very ability stat heavy class needing everything at a decent level, If it wasn't for good rolls may be hard to play in some campaigns They need all the standard Barbarian stats Plus Decent Charisma now for there spells.
Would have liked to see a new spell list just for them instead of using the Magus's and a few more bloodlines to choose from. They gain the utility from spells but lose alot of the cool Rage Powers Barbarians had access to instead.
They may also want to change a few of the prestige classes such as Rage Prophet to allow this class to access in addition to several other feats
reworded to allow this to work such as Eldritch Bloodline
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This is a cool class and the bloodlines seem really fun. My first impression is that the spells come so slowly and so late they seem to not have much effect. I think I'd rather have a 3/4 BAB with more spells, more like a magus. Why would I forgo a full attack at level 6 doing d12+6 damage twice to cast my (only) first level spell? (I have no experience playing at levels past 5 so maybe it is worthwhile at higher levels.)
Mechanically, you would rarely cast in a rage. You cast good out-of-combat effects, mostly, and maybe a useful buff like Haste before going into a rage or into combat at all if you had rounds to prep.
Thematically, this seems strange. Lots of people seem to expect the Blodorager to cast in combat. I am very satisfied with them not doing so.
Making a class able to use spells and combat almost equally effectively is very difficult. You'll just get caster-bloodragers and hitting-stuff-bloodragers, because action economy says it's better to be good at one things than decent at two. Magus solved this by letting you do both at the same time.
They could very much make this class 'angry magus' (which seems to be what you and others are expecting.), but I'm more than happy with 'barbarian with utility and themed rage'.
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I am 100% shocked that anyone really wants to turn this class into "more of a caster". This is the arcane paladin that we have been waiting for for so long! The Magus already exists, its done... go play that class if you are really looking to get spell combat and spellstrike.
You have to look at the spellcasting in that same Paladin/Ranger tinted light. These spells are not there to be some source of huge power, they are there to add tons of utility to this class. That is all! This is a barbarian that can cast Haste, Fly, Spider Climb, Invisibility... Heck, he can glitterdust and cast see invis... he is more versatile than a straight barbarian because of this.
And IN that light... this is a class that is working very well. The Bloodrager will never be casting big blaster spells or landing area control spells, but who cares? He isn't supposed to!
I don't know, I wouldn't mind the con based casting suggestion. As long as it didn't apply bonus spells from raging of course.
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I am happy that it is a cha based caster.
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I love the idea that was posited of giving the bloodrager access to schools of magic based on the bloodline they choose. It is a seriously cool way of differentiating them further, while working as a balancing factor (example: arcane getting divination). Also this would keep them using the sorcerer lists, and actually give them some possible utility.
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I am 100% shocked that anyone really wants to turn this class into "more of a caster". This is the arcane paladin that we have been waiting for for so long! The Magus already exists, its done... go play that class if you are really looking to get spell combat and spellstrike.
You have to look at the spellcasting in that same Paladin/Ranger tinted light. These spells are not there to be some source of huge power, they are there to add tons of utility to this class. That is all! This is a barbarian that can cast Haste, Fly, Spider Climb, Invisibility... Heck, he can glitterdust and cast see invis... he is more versatile than a straight barbarian because of this.
And IN that light... this is a class that is working very well. The Bloodrager will never be casting big blaster spells or landing area control spells, but who cares? He isn't supposed to!
+10,000
Also, the point of the class is MAD. Paladins? MAD. Rangers? MAD. Moving casting to CON a) breaks the game design choice of all casting being through a mental stat, b) breaks the principle of spontaneous casters being CHA based, and c) makes the class no longer need to focus on both facets of its class. Paladin must concentrate on melee viability (or ranged if they're an archer) as well as maintaining a high enough casting stat to at least hit your minimum required value (14). Ranger is the same way. Moving casting to CON would be like saying the Pal uses CHA for to-hit and melee damage, or that a Rng uses WIS for to-hit with a bow. It just doesn't thematically work or make sense.
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Just to be fair, both A and B on your list have been broken before - Scarred Witch Doctor archetype is a CON-based caster and Inquisitor is a WIS-based spont-caster.
Just to be fair, both A and B on your list have been broken before - Scarred Witch Doctor archetype is a CON-based caster and Inquisitor is a WIS-based spont-caster.
don't forget paladins are charsima based prepared casters.
The Scarred Witch Doctor is an archetype for Witch and the fact that it uses a Physical ability score for casting is something weird, and unique to that archetype (if it were STR, they could just punch reality).
About Inquistor and Paladin… I have no real comment as the only experience I have in those two are the Inquisitor of Sarenrae I made for a friend, and the Paladin I'm currently playing in WoTR, who just reached level 4 during the last session.
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Can you "hold" a two-handed weapon in one hand to cast a spell?
Yes.
Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).
As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).
Yes, you can hold a 2-hand weapon in one hand to cast a spell. Removing your hand from a 2-hand weapon is a free action, as is returning your hand to the weapon.
I think This one need read and detect magic on the spell list along with ligth and a few others that every spell caster need but that they may not use that often.
Also my first impression tells me that the polymorf spells is to low for this guy at level 13 when the earth(more like acid and not a very earthy feel but that is another discussion) NerdRager cast the pinnacle of what magic his blood will give him... and turn in to a small elemental? not cool!
But else i like this one a lot.
I don't know, I wouldn't mind the con based casting suggestion. As long as it didn't apply bonus spells from raging of course.
Any increase to an ability score does not grant any extra spells or abilities until it lasts for over 24 hours. And since rage will never last that long, it shouldn't be a problem.
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(if it were STR, they could just punch reality).
I CAST FIST
Here's a question, since the bloodrager is a hybrid of barbarian and sorcerer, would a robe of arcane heritage progress their bloodline powers?
Here's a question, since the bloodrager is a hybrid of barbarian and sorcerer, would a robe of arcane heritage progress their bloodline powers?
Currently, they would not, as the robes say "…Sorcerer Bloodline…" and "…treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher…" though they may change it once the book is released, or add a different version for the Rage Mage (I personally like saying this name more than Bloodrager, it's just easier to say).
EDIT: This also seems to be the same situation with the Rage Mage's bloodlines and Eldritch Heritage for characters of other classes.
Well, so far the bloodrager bloodlines do not qualify for the items and feats and other such things, that mention sorcerer bloodlines, it would seem. I believe I remember reading SKR say a tiefling's "Fiendish Sorcery" ability would not function for a tiefling bloodrager. So, that would mean a Robe of Arcane Heritage, Dragon Disciple, etc would not work in tandem with a bloodrager. My understanding would be a bloodrager could be of any bloodline (arcane, for example, as everyone has latched onto that), and take the Dragon Disciple prestige class, and would then obtain the Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline, and his bloodrager bloodline would not advance as he advanced in Dragon Disciple.
And the bloodrager's limited spell selection could also be increased by the feat "Expanded Arcana", giving them more spells known.
I don't know which way I lean concerning the interaction between the sorcerer and bloodrager bloodlines. Making them interchangeable (dragon disciple advances the draconic bloodrager bloodline, a bloodrager can use the robe, etc) would give the bloodrager some decent options. Making them seperate (an abyssal bloodrager taking the Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) feat, etc) could make for some interesting characters, but also would need certain things that apply to the bloodrager and can't affect the sorcerer.
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Maybe it's more of a flavor thing, but the bloodrager really should have a lycanthrope blood line.
...Speaking of Arcane, I find the True Arcane Bloodrage selection of buff spells odd. Beast Shape IV and Form of the Dragon I are just fine polymorph spells, though definitely not what I would think of in the context of the rest of the bloodline, which, broadly speaking, is about enhancement, not transformation. It seems like a decent chunk of the benefits of Transformation are things the Bloodrager will already have by level 16. Plus it seems that all three choices in True Arcane Bloodrage take away spellcasting, though I presume you can choose to not apply any of the...(Bold emphasis mine)
From the description of the Polymorph Subschool on d20pfsrd:
While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
(Bold emphasis mine again)
Yes, beast shape IV and transformation will take away your spellcasting, but form of the dragon I does not.
Fair point. It should be obvious to me given how many spellcasting dragons I've run into (i.e. almost ever dragon I've encountered is more a caster than a fighter). Of course, dragon form means essentially changing how you operate at level 16, unless you've been building some sort of natural attack character, which I'm not sure how you would do with an arcane Bloodrager, off the top of my head. Not impossible, just... not the bloodline you'd pick to do that. So this is a weird set of effects.
In general, I'd want either limited ability to break normal action economy to use spells along with physical combat, or a custom spell list that does something like the Paladin and Ranger lists do; i.e. guide the player away from spells that just don't suit. I think I'd prefer that. As a full-BAB character likely wielding a two-handed weapon, I expect I would use spells as buffs & utility, and keep one or two around for niche cases (can't reach any foe, vampiric touch emergency recovery), and any spells that are already swift actions.
As a 6th-level caster, I'd argue for an action-economy breaker like Spell Combat. As a 4th-level caster, I definitely prefer a trimmed and adjusted spell list. That would also be the way to get some spells that have been cantrips, such as detect magic, which is something I always feel odd not having as any sort of caster. Still, it's a bit late to add that to Paladin & Ranger. And I don't want this to become a 6th-level caster.
I can live with four levels of the Magus list, though I think some additional level compression would be good for the class. Getting greater bladed dash for example, would be very nice, as would getting a few spells a bit earlier.
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The Bloodrager seems like an awesome class, but I see one major problem with it. This is its compatibility with the Dragon Disciple prestige class. This class gives a +4 to strength and a +2 to constitution, which greatly improves melee combat. Although this does not work too will with the spell casting sorcerer that is largely unconcerned with melee, this buffs the Bloodrager almost unfairly.This thread is for discussing the Bloodrager. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
The following updates apply to the Bloodrager.
• Add Spellcraft to the list of Bloodrager class skills.
• On the Bloodrager table, the bloodline power gained at 3rd level should be moved to 4th level to match the individual bloodline entries.
The improved STR helps with touch attacks.
And the improved CON helps with fortitude saves and staying alive. Doesn't matter what class you're playing, you WILL get hit eventually.
The more I look at the Arcane Bloodline the less I like True Arcane Bloodrage.
Your options are, essentially: Be a Natural Attack specialist (and lose all your spells) or be a weapon user (and lose all your spells). It's kind of ironic that the Arcane bloodline, the most magic themed of the bunch, is the one that loses its ability to cast while Raging at higher levels.
Just my 2 cents there.
First, before I say anything else, let me mention the extremely confusing presentation. By putting Blood Casting before the Spells ability, it is very easy to read the class in a way that suggests it can only cast spells while raging. I know that is not the case, but it is not very clear.
That said, it seems like everyone loves this class but me. I feel like the only one not interested in it.
To me, the spells are just an afterthought. By using the Magus list, you're giving the Bloodrager a very blasty, touch-focused spell list which is basically the opposite of what they need and will/can use.
Blast spells, especially touch spells, are worthless to the Bloodrager, because they can hit harder with their weapon thanks to the whole rage thing. What the Bloodrager really needs out of their spell list is utility and buffing, but the Magus list is very weak on those things, and deliberately so.
Further, this is a delayed 4 level spell progression built out of an already reduced 6 level spell progression. The spells you end up getting are so hilariously out of date by the time you get them that I frankly question their very presence.
I fully understand the developer's views on custom spell lists, but I really hope they see why the Magus list is not the answer for the Bloodrager. Even if they can't have a custom list, if they just got the normal Sorc/Wiz list for 4 spell levels rather than the Magus, it would be a huge improvement.
Otherwise, I'm just not interested in raging at all, and I've never liked the "bloodline" thing they foisted on Sorcerers, so this class does not appeal to me in any way.
I don't find the Magus spell list to be overly focused on blasts and touch attacks. I definitely found that the last time I played a Magus, I was focused too much on the touch attacks, but I attribute that to building around Spellstrike, and having not enough Intelligence for spells with save DCs, or enough spell slots to keep any variety of spells other than offensive touch attacks in a default spell prep.
The list has a solid sampling of core Sor/Wiz buff and utility spells; I don't think it's any worse than just using levels 1-4 of Sor/Wiz.
I do, however, think the class calls for some spells to be pushed to lower levels to compensate for the late access to spell levels, the way Paladin and Ranger have in many cases. And to help push players away from spells that are essentially traps.
But I know the developers don't want to make custom spell lists for these classes, though I think the Bloodrager has a stronger claim on a need such a list than the 6th-level casters do (and it would take up less space, too!) So I'll try to refrain from calling for that list anymore.
I agree that the writeup could use some clarifying / reformatting. As I understand it:
- The Bloodrager can cast spells, Bloodrager or otherwise, when not bloodraging.
- When bloodraging, the Bloodrager can cast Bloodrager spells, but no other types of spells.
- Bloodline powers function only during bloodrage.
- Bonus feats and spells are available in and out of bloodrage.
- Most likely, caster level is class level - 3, starting at 4th level.
But an editing pass or two should address that, and this is just the playtest.
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Well, so far the bloodrager bloodlines do not qualify for the items and feats and other such things, that mention sorcerer bloodlines, it would seem. I believe I remember reading SKR say a tiefling's "Fiendish Sorcery" ability would not function for a tiefling bloodrager. So, that would mean a Robe of Arcane Heritage, Dragon Disciple, etc would not work in tandem with a bloodrager. My understanding would be a bloodrager could be of any bloodline (arcane, for example, as everyone has latched onto that), and take the Dragon Disciple prestige class, and would then obtain the Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline, and his bloodrager bloodline would not advance as he advanced in Dragon Disciple.
And the bloodrager's limited spell selection could also be increased by the feat "Expanded Arcana", giving them more spells known.
I don't know which way I lean concerning the interaction between the sorcerer and bloodrager bloodlines. Making them interchangeable (dragon disciple advances the draconic bloodrager bloodline, a bloodrager can use the robe, etc) would give the bloodrager some decent options. Making them seperate (an abyssal bloodrager taking the Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) feat, etc) could make for some interesting characters, but also would need certain things that apply to the bloodrager and can't affect the sorcerer.
Where did he say that? I just know he closed my topic specifically asking about Fiendish Sorcery.
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My review:
Bloodrager: A. I love barbarians, and this is a great, great alternative barbarian class. Losing rage powers (especially rage cycling rage powers) hurts, but getting things like always-on haste while raging makes up for losing always-on pounce while raging. There's a lot of synergy waiting to be explored with the Bloodrager. I'm looking to roll up a PFS character that uses Fey Rage and a keen rapier to confusion tank people. My PFS titan mauler could certainly benefit from a permanent +5' reach while raging, or a permanent enlarge person, etc., but he's probably better as he is now, which says a lot about the balance of this class. The main downside to this class is that you apparently need to be raging to cast a spell, even out of combat, which makes things kind of annoying (rage, cast fly, drop out of rage, wait two rounds for exhaustion to wear off, and then proceed). For this reason, they are more likely to run out of rage than normal barbarians.
Also: rage-cycling Destined bloodragers past 16th level will be pretty sick. Roll twice. Autoconfirm if either of them threatens.
That said, it seems like everyone loves this class but me. I feel like the only one not interested in it.
...
Otherwise, I'm just not interested in raging at all, and I've never liked the "bloodline" thing they foisted on Sorcerers, so this class does not appeal to me in any way.
I'm pretty sure if you don't like bloodlines, and you don't like raging, this is not the class that is ever going to appeal to you. That being said, I don't think you're giving things a fair shake. Specifically-
By using the Magus list, you're giving the Bloodrager a very blasty, touch-focused spell list which is basically the opposite of what they need and will/can use.
Not really, have you looked at it? The spells a bloodrager is realistically going to use are pretty much all pre-battle buffs, and they're all on here. The stat boosts, weapon enhancers, size changers, blur, invisibility, you name it, they get it. Heck, they get beast shape 2, the one that gives you pounce! It's an amazingly good list for what they need, particularly considering that I agree with you it feels like an afterthought. In the sense, that is, that I'd be happy with this class without any spellcasting because I'm just a huge fan of the thematic fun of the bloodlines, and having access to all these is just a cool extra.
Further, this is a delayed 4 level spell progression built out of an already reduced 6 level spell progression. The spells you end up getting are so hilariously out of date by the time you get them that I frankly question their very presence.
This meanwhile is a completely baseless concern. A magus has to wait longer to access any given spell than a wizard does, but this is not due to, say, greater invisibility being a level 6 spell for magi instead of the level 4 spell it is for wizards. It's a level 4 spell either way, it's just that magi have to wait longer to access 4th level spells than than wizards do. Once you divorce the list from the class though, turns out the same spells come at the same levels. A level 4 spell is a level 4 spell (unless you're a summoner, which I think has been acknowledged as a design flaw).
You cannot have regular rage. Hybrid classes cannot mix with base classes that they are a part of, its written at the beginning of the book.
They can multiclass with Fighter, though.
You cannot have regular rage. Hybrid classes cannot mix with base classes that they are a part of, its written at the beginning of the book.
(viking archetype)
^^^^^
So you can have Regular Rage.
You should be able to activate both, they are different abilities after all. The Morale bonuses wouldn't stack, of course, so you'd end up burning twice the rounds to get your selection of Rage Powers and Bloodline Powers up at the same time.
You shouldn't get Rage Powers in Bloodrage though because they're different abilities (and this is likely EXACTLY why for all those people griping about how pointless it is for the name to be different if it's mechanically identical besides the Su tag).
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The Magus spell list could lead to a slight problem. A new player who only has the player's handbook and the APG isn't going to know what the magus spell list is or where to find it. We had this occure last night where a player asked "what the bloodrager's spell list was", and I replied the magus spell list, and he said "what's a magus".
I might seen minor, since older player's can just explain, but if your completely new to the game you might not understand.
Thankfully there's d20pfsrd.com AND the PRD that you can just point new players to, for free even =)