Bloodrager Discussion


Class Discussion

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Bonus feat lists seems too small for the number of bonus feats given (5 bonus feats, 7 options). One fix I think would be to add a few "general" bonus feats any Bloodrager can take (rage related feats like Extra Rage is easy enough), otherwise most Bloodragers of the same bloodline are going to be taking mostly the same feats (especially as each bloodline has at least one that is only useful for spefiffic builds).

Wings of Heaven says "you can choose", but doesn't list the action needed. Dragon Wings, by contrast, explicitly state "when you enter a Bloodrage"

Fey's Confusing Critical should have some kind of bonus if using a weapon with a higher critical multiplier, as otherwise there is no point to using anything but the highest range you can get (increase duration?)

Magic Missle and ESPECIALLY Lighting Bolt don't really seem to fit the the nature of the class or the kind of spells given to other bloodlines (almost all utility and buffs). Dispel Magic is a perfect replacement for Lighting Bolt (it's even the Arcane Bloodline's bonus spell for that level), though Magic Missile is trickier.

Rysky wrote:
Okay. Really. REALLY. Like how the Bloodrager has it's own version of the Bloodlines. I'm gonna like seeing what all I can make using BR + Eldritch Heritage combos :3

Speaking of which, can a BR take EH for the same bloodline he has "Bloodrager Bloodline" for?

EH says "This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have", but "bloodline" is a separate class feature from "Bloodrager Bloodline" and the effects of the two are completely different.

Grand Lodge

My first plea would to rename the class, what does bloodrager mean anyway.
My second is to let bloodrage add to charisma instead of constitution, and let charisma effect the number of rage rounds. I'm sorry but I see so much MAD with this class.
My third is the removal of uncanny and improved uncanny dodge.
My fourth is knocking the class down to 2 skill points per level.
And my fifth is to drop the Magus spell selection and give him his own.


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Quote:
My fourth is knocking the class down to 2 skill points per level.

I don't think any class should have 2+int unless the class is intelligence focused or a full caster. 2vs.4 skill points isn't a real change in power, but it does make a character annoyingly narrow. I like charisma based raged and replacing, not axing, uncanny doge, but keep the skill points.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

They have said they will not rename the classes (goes for warpriest and any other "This name doesn't make sense" commented class).
Why do you feel the need for the bloodrager to have 2 skill points per level?
And they also said they won't make specific spell lists for these classes, as it takes up more room in the book that they feel could be used in better ways.

Shadow Lodge

Should the Tiefling's Fiendish Sorcery race trait also affect the Bloodrager bloodlines? They should. They really really should.

Dark Archive

Can a Bloodrager use the Crossblooded Archetype? Sense spells aren't really a focus it would let you pick and chose your ablilites, from two pools.


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seriously, theres a reason the tactician and lore warden fighters are popular beyond the free feats. those extra skill points (even limited) actually make the fighter good for something other that stand and swing or move and swing.


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I love this class, but I think I should mention a few possible issues that I've noticed:

The Fey bloodline seems underpowered compared to most of the other choices. Here a perfect example: at 8th level the Arcane bloodline gets Displacement or Haste for their entire rage while fey just gets Blur for one round after a charge. Bloodragers get uncanny dodge, so the blur is inferior in every way here.

The Draconic bloodline gets the fly spell one level after they gain the ability to grow wings. Seems somewhat counterproductive, though I guess it could be cast on allies.

Is it just me, or is the abyssal bloodline way too good damage wise? Between its free enlarge (+2 size bonus strength and weapon die increase) and +6 strength bonus by level 20 it seems pretty crazy. I won't be surprised if they use the standard abyssal bloodline to get another +6 inherent bonus to strength as well! They are a bit weak on the defenses though and will overall have an extra -4 to their AC, but is that enough of a balancing factor?

Edit: I would like to recommend that the strength bonus from the abyssal bloodline be an inherent bonus (somehow) in order to prevent things from getting too crazy by stacking this with the sorcerer version of the bloodline.

They Fey bloodline suffers from a flavor problem. How many fey creatures really use strength? Maybe this bloodline should get a bonus to dexterity while raging either in addition to or instead of strength?


Lemmy wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
I don't think it obsoletes the Barbarian. Because the Barbarian has two words that give him an edge: Rage Powers.
It is more of a toe stepping question. Do we really need damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc...when we are getting 4 levels of arcane spells and bloodline like powers?
That is a good point, actually. Uncanny Dodge and DR could be removed without any problem, but I wouldn't nerf the class more than that.

I don't think it particularly needs it, but neither would I mind the change. I don't think it really needs DR and Uncanny Dodge either.

Also, what is with the people going around to all of the 4+Int classes and saying "I don't like people having skills, bump them down to 2+Int"?

Grand Lodge

To further separate it from the barbarian.


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Zombie Ninja wrote:
To further separate it from the barbarian.

I'm just going to sit here dumbfounded at the ultimate badness of this idea.

That's your ONLY reason? Seriously? Come on, man.


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i'm not a fan of lobotomizing people for "differentiation".

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
Zombie Ninja wrote:
To further separate it from the barbarian.

I'm just going to sit here dumbfounded at the ultimate badness of this idea.

That's your ONLY reason? Seriously? Come on, man.

You don't have to like it, but I'm going to still suggest it.


AM SWASHBUCKLER wrote:
AM SKALD wrote:
AM BLOODRAGER wrote:
AM SKALD wrote:
AM BLOODRAGER wrote:
AM SKALD wrote:
AM BLOODRAGER wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
AM BLOODRAGER wrote:
AM NOT LIKING DIRECTION THIS ARE GOING.
Just for giggles, I now want to write up an AM BARBARIAN bloodrager bloodline.
AM HAPPY TO INSPIRE IDEA LIKE COUSIN AM SKALD.
AM WELCOME!

AM HAPPY SEE YOU COUSIN.

AM ANNOYED WITH WEIRD MILK POTION THAT BRINGS MALES OF AM SPECIES TO HOME YARD.

AM NOT CLEANING UP AFTER.

AM NOT MY IDEA. AM NOT SKALD'S KIND OF MUSIC. AM BLAMING SWASHBUCKLER.
SWASHBUCKLER OR AM SWASHBUCKLER?
BOTH?
AM SWASHBUCKLER ASK FAMILY NOT BLAME AM FOR AM FAILURE.

AM BLOODRAGER SHOULD KNOWN BETTER.

AM BLOODRAGER BLAME COSMO NOW.

Dark Archive

4+ Int should be the baseline skills for the 'worst' skill classes, there's really no argument in regards to 'overpowering' that can be made with a straight face as to how it's broken giving some classes a couple more skill points to play around with and help customise the character to match the idea they have in their head.

As to the Bloodrager specifically, love the class and I can see how the flavour of rage is different from a Barbarians, that said i'll echo the thought that some of the Bloodlines seem rather different in power levels, the difference between a character with Fey and one with Aberrant or Abyssal seems to be more than perhaps it should.

Also add another +1 for the 'can they qualify for DD/does it increase with their Bloodrager Bloodline?' stuff.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I had some free time to look at this class and I think it is over-powered.

I did a compare between multiclass and single classes for Blood5 : Bar5 : Sor5 : Bar5/Sor5 : Blood10 : Bar10 : Sor10 : Bar10/Sor10 : Blood20 : Bar20 : Sor20

I am not comparing when special abilities are gained, just the total abilities at each level. Nor am I including the various bloodlines, there are already enough people comparing them.

Blood5
BAB +5; Fort +4, Ref +1, Wil +1; Avg HP37
Special: Fast movement, bloodrage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, blood casting, bloodline power x1
Spells/day: 1st x1

Bar5
BAB +5; Fort +4, Ref +1, Wil +1; Avg HP43
Special: Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x2, trap sense +1

Sor5
BAB +2; Fort +1, Ref +1, Wil +4; Avg HP25
Special: Bloodline power x2, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x2
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x4

Bar5/Sor5
BAB +7/+2; Fort +5, Ref +2, Wil +5; Avg HP52
Special: Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x2, trap sense +1, Bloodline power x2, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x2
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x4
Cannot Cast While Raging

Blood10
BAB +10/+5; Fort +7, Ref +3, Wil +3; Avg HP69
Special: Fast movement, bloodrage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, blood casting, bloodline power x3, bloodline spell x2, bloodline feat x2, DR 2/-
Spells/day: 1st x2; 2nd x1; 3rd x1
Can Cast While Raging

Bar10
BAB +10/+5; Fort +7, Ref +3, Wil +3; Avg HP80
Special: Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x4, trap sense +3, DR 2/-

Sor10
BAB +5; Fort +3, Ref +3, Wil +7; Avg HP47
Special: Bloodline power x3, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x4, Bloodline feat
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x6; 3rd x6; 4th x5; 5th x3

Bar10/Sor10
BAB +15/+10/+5; Fort +10, Ref +6, Wil +10; Avg HP101
Special:Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x4, trap sense +3, DR 2/-; Bloodline power x3, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x4, Bloodline feat
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x6; 3rd x6; 4th x5; 5th x3
Cannot Cast While Raging

Blood20
BAB +20/+15/+10/+5; Fort +12, Ref +6, Wil +6; Avg HP134
Special: Fast movement, bloodrage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, blood casting, bloodline power x5, bloodline spell x4, bloodline feat x5, DR 5/- , greater bloodrage, indomitable will, tireless rage, mighty rage
Spells/day: 1st x4; 2nd x4; 3rd x3; 4th x2
Can Cast While Raging

Bar20
BAB +20/+15/+10/+5; Fort +12, Ref +6, Wil +6; Avg HP155
Special: Fast movement, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x10, trap sense +6, DR 5/-, indomitable will, rage, greater rage, tireless rage, mighty rage

Sor20
BAB +10/+5; Fort +6, Ref +6, Wil +12; Avg HP92
Special: Bloodline power x5, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x9, Bloodline feat x3
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x6; 3rd x6; 4th x6; 5th x6; 6th x6; 7th x6; 8th x6; 9th x6

A summary of this comparison is that the Bloodrager is equivalent to a Barbarian of equal level plus a Sorcerer of roughly 1/2+ the levels.
When I look at these numbers I wonder why I would choose to play a single class barbarian. I know I don't get all the rage powers that a barbarian would get, but these are made up for with bloodline powers, bloodline feats, and bloodline spells. Is reducing the number of bloodline powers, feats and spells, really an effective way to create a equal class, when you are still getting the majority of the abilities of both classes still.

I believe tireless rage, mighty rage, DR4/- and DR5/-, should all be removed from the class.
I also believe that the the rage casting should only be available when the character is raging.

I am planning on creating a Bloodrager to use over the holidays, so maybe I will be wrong in my analysis.

Ok, that is all. Start tearing it apart.

Edit: Added Average HP for each one, used barbarian for 1st level on all multiclasses and used 1/2HD+1 for each remaining level.

Grand Lodge

Grumdar wrote:

I had some free time to look at this class and I think it is over-powered.

I did a compare between multiclass and single classes for Blood5 : Bar5 : Sor5 : Bar5/Sor5 : Blood10 : Bar10 : Sor10 : Bar10/Sor10 : Blood20 : Bar20 : Sor20

I am not comparing when special abilities are gained, just the total abilities at each level. Nor am I including the various bloodlines, there are already enough people comparing them.

Blood5
BAB +5; Fort +4, Ref +1, Wil +1
Special: Fast movement, bloodrage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, blood casting, bloodline power x1
Spells/day: 1st x1

Bar5
BAB +5; Fort +4, Ref +1, Wil +1
Special: Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x2, trap sense +1

Sor5
BAB +2; Fort +1, Ref +1, Wil +4
Special: Bloodline power x2, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x2
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x4

Bar5/Sor5
BAB +7/+2; Fort +5, Ref +2, Wil +5
Special: Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x2, trap sense +1, Bloodline power x2, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x2
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x4
Cannot Cast While Raging

Blood10
BAB +10/+5; Fort +7, Ref +3, Wil +3
Special: Fast movement, bloodrage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, blood casting, bloodline power x3, bloodline spell x2, bloodline feat x2, DR 2/-
Spells/day: 1st x2; 2nd x1; 3rd x1
Can Cast While Raging

Bar10
BAB +10/+5; Fort +7, Ref +3, Wil +3
Special: Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x4, trap sense +3, DR 2/-

Sor10
BAB +5; Fort +3, Ref +3, Wil +7
Special: Bloodline power x3, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x4, Bloodline feat
Spells/day: 1st x6; 2nd x6; 3rd x6; 4th x5; 5th x3

Bar10/Sor10
BAB +15/+10/+5; Fort +10, Ref +6, Wil +10
Special:Fast movement, rage, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, Rage Power x4, trap sense +3, DR 2/-; Bloodline power x3, cantrips, eschew materials, bloodline spell x4, Bloodline feat...

Great work, though in fairness you forgot to factor in hit points, but since it's such a minor difference I don't think it matters.


I'm not seeing where the Bloodrager is equivalent to a Barbarian plus a Sorcerer 1/2 his level.

I CAN see that he might be better than a Barbarian/Sorcerer multiclass, but that's not an issue, that's part of the reason he exists (multiclassing sucks).

A Bloodrager 20 isn't even equivalent to the Sorcerer 10 you posted there in casting. It has less spells per day and one entire spell LEVEL less. The gap grows from there.

On the Barbarian he looks roughly equal. Bloodline ability x5 plus Bonus Feat x5 = Rage Power x 10.

Assuming best Bloodlines vs best Rage Powers, that puts them on equal footing at best, the Barbarian pulling ahead in raw power at worst.

Though again, losing Uncanny Dodge/Improved and DR wouldn't hurt.


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This class is rock solid. At last a Full BAB class with 4/9 arcane casting.

My new Favorite class.

No, it is not OP.


If something replaces UD, it should be customizable, as the bloodrager is lacking past level 1 (he has choices in theory, but the bonus feats and new spells known come from such tiny lists with even fewer actually useful to him. He'll easily have all relevant feats and most spells useful to him by the end, with only order being a serious choice)

Another thing I spotted: Does (Arcane) Bloodrager qualify for Spellbreaker and Disruptive outside of his bonus feats?

Sczarni

I think it is tied between the barbarian and the bloodrager. The latter cannot abuse so many power that the barbarian can with rage powers at late levels with rage on/rage off in the same round because she's not tired anymore after a rage. But maybe it is not relevant a this high level. I think I should play the bloodrager first before criticising it.


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Is it just me or is the celestial blood rager kind of stupid good?

At level 1 you get to bypass DR of [evil] creatures, and for the most part do extra damage to them too (most evil creatures are evil outsiders). You can do this more times than a Paladin can too. I can see a large number of people dipping just for this ability.

Then you get resistances to acid and cold which is not shabby at all.

Finally at level 8 you get the ability to fly. No devil or demon is safe now.

I havn't looked super carefully at all of the bloodrage bloodlines but this one really jumped out at me. Mainly because you turn into a flying Paladin who gets more bypass DR goodness.

Silver Crusade

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Mahtobedis wrote:
Is it just me or is the celestial blood rager kind of stupid good?

Chaotic Good actually :3

Silver Crusade

Something else to consider I hope would be either an errata for the Eldritch Heritage feat tree or a new feat tree that allows non BR characters to use these BR bloodlines. Melee classes like fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians and rogues could get a lot out of these feats instead of the normal Eldritch Heritage since the Sorcerer bloodlines boost casting more often than melee.


toascend wrote:

In combat, I think that the bloodrager does what it aims to do, and does it well, but not too well.

Out of combat, the spells seem of greater use than within it. I would probably not be wasting rounds of bloodrage too often to be letting off weak spells, but out of it, I would be vanishing, jumping, and the like with foolish abandon to augment the adventuring aspects.

One thing I could suggest to enhance the class, is to allow some of the bloodline powers that aren't specifically about hitting and hurting things to last outside of combat. Examples that come to mind are:

Energy resistances, flight, condition immunities, and the like.

While I am aware that would increase the power a tad, the duration allotted to a raging barbarian is almost guaranteed to extend through the entirety of nearly any of the encounters in the day. I have never seen a combat exceed 15 rounds, nor would I want to.

This would add an element to the bloodrager where there is an actual, progressive transformation, and it would also cut down on bookkeeping for closing the number of abilities that are temporal in nature, as well as more closely mimic the sorcerer bloodlines.

The bloodlines would be of greater potency at earlier levels than sorcerer, but I think the 9th level spellcasting makes such an apology unnecessary.

If this can be done without breaking or OPing anything I am wholeheartedly behind this. Maybe as part of the trade off for some those barbarian abilities that people keep mentioning? Although I am not sure about effects of those losses. Just an idea use, bend, or twist as you see fit. Don't mind me.


The NPC wrote:
Just an idea use, bend, or twist as you see fit. Don't mind me.

IF AM SURE, COULD USE WORKOUT.

Shadow Lodge

Mahtobedis wrote:

Is it just me or is the celestial blood rager kind of stupid good?

At level 1 you get to bypass DR of [evil] creatures, and for the most part do extra damage to them too (most evil creatures are evil outsiders). You can do this more times than a Paladin can too. I can see a large number of people dipping just for this ability.

Then you get resistances to acid and cold which is not shabby at all.

Finally at level 8 you get the ability to fly. No devil or demon is safe now.

I havn't looked super carefully at all of the bloodrage bloodlines but this one really jumped out at me. Mainly because you turn into a flying Paladin who gets more bypass DR goodness.

Remember, its only while bloodraging.


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A little note, this has good synergy with an intimidate build, since you,re going to have charisma anyways.


Zombie Ninja wrote:

My first plea would to rename the class, what does bloodrager mean anyway.

My second is to let bloodrage add to charisma instead of constitution, and let charisma effect the number of rage rounds. I'm sorry but I see so much MAD with this class.
My third is the removal of uncanny and improved uncanny dodge.
My fourth is knocking the class down to 2 skill points per level.
And my fifth is to drop the Magus spell selection and give him his own.

I don't see how switching everything rage based from CON to CHA would help the MAD issue, as a melee class you will want a good CON.

Also I don't think any class should be reduced to 2 skill points a level.

The Exchange

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Mahtobedis wrote:

Is it just me or is the celestial blood rager kind of stupid good?

At level 1 you get to bypass DR of [evil] creatures, and for the most part do extra damage to them too (most evil creatures are evil outsiders). You can do this more times than a Paladin can too. I can see a large number of people dipping just for this ability.

Then you get resistances to acid and cold which is not shabby at all.

Finally at level 8 you get the ability to fly. No devil or demon is safe now.

I havn't looked super carefully at all of the bloodrage bloodlines but this one really jumped out at me. Mainly because you turn into a flying Paladin who gets more bypass DR goodness.

I love the theme of holy wrath. my issue is the bonus feats, why do they get 2 mounted combat feats?


Have we gotten word yet if a Bloodrager has a full caster level? It certainly lacks the wording the paladin and ranger do about having -3 caster level.


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upon beginning my "break the new classes" run for character building for my groups next upcoming campaign which will be Tomb of Horrors, i discovered something interesting about this class: it uses the magus spell list...not that big of a deal until you consider multiclassing into magus with it. normally, to combine any other casting class with magus, you need a three level dip in magus at a minimum in order to obtain a magus arcana to allow you take have access to your other spellcasting classes spells with spellcombat and spellstrike. but since these two classes use the same spell list, i at at a standstill with building this class...can i actually only take a two level dip in magus and still make full use of spellcombat and spellstrike?

my after thinking it over and arguing with my groupmate about it, i think i may have an answer, but feel that it needs to be rewritten as such. while the bloodrager and magus spell lists are identical, they are still entirely seperate lists within themselves and must be listed as such to maintain efficient balance for the purpose or magus cross-classing. otherwise we are going to see a brutal influx of bloodrager x, magus 2 builds as it will become the best possible spellstrike/spellcombat build in the game with a 19 BAB and access to all the touch spells a 20th level magus relies on normally for spellstrikes. in addition, he'll have an oddly large number of usable spells per day due to the increased spell slots granted from 2 levels of magus for 1st level spells.


because a mounted bloodrager makes total sense, considering there is nothing else on the class that does it.

Grand Lodge

Some Random Dood wrote:
Zombie Ninja wrote:

My first plea would to rename the class, what does bloodrager mean anyway.

My second is to let bloodrage add to charisma instead of constitution, and let charisma effect the number of rage rounds. I'm sorry but I see so much MAD with this class.
My third is the removal of uncanny and improved uncanny dodge.
My fourth is knocking the class down to 2 skill points per level.
And my fifth is to drop the Magus spell selection and give him his own.

I don't see how switching everything rage based from CON to CHA would help the MAD issue, as a melee class you will want a good CON.

Also I don't think any class should be reduced to 2 skill points a level.

Personally I would like to see the class go a little more charisma based. Con effects hit points and yes we want this, but as it stands Con is far more important then Cha, and I want to balance them out more, as well as creating a difference between bloodrage and a ordinary rage. Raising Cha. would mean raising the DC of our spells in bloodrage, since casting spells in bloodrage as it stands now seems pointless, it helps change that. As it stands now I'd rather buff before hand. Even in case of touch based spells, well I rather just whack them with my sword anyway.

The two skill point, was just a suggestion. I felt the barbarian should be overall a more skill focused class. Personally I think skills are overrated anyway. We have spells and cool bloodline powers Skills offer so little in the way of extra customization. We're freak'n raging spell-cast class, but we hardly have the need for spells, and raging dose so very little for our spell-casting. Maybe you like that, I find it a little disappointing.


Oh wow, didn't even consider using the Magus class abilities like that.

It's actually 6 levels to get that arcana, not 3 though.

Andrew R wrote:
Mahtobedis wrote:

Is it just me or is the celestial blood rager kind of stupid good?

At level 1 you get to bypass DR of [evil] creatures, and for the most part do extra damage to them too (most evil creatures are evil outsiders). You can do this more times than a Paladin can too. I can see a large number of people dipping just for this ability.

Then you get resistances to acid and cold which is not shabby at all.

Finally at level 8 you get the ability to fly. No devil or demon is safe now.

I havn't looked super carefully at all of the bloodrage bloodlines but this one really jumped out at me. Mainly because you turn into a flying Paladin who gets more bypass DR goodness.

I love the theme of holy wrath. my issue is the bonus feats, why do they get 2 mounted combat feats?

Mounted Fury is one of the few archetypes any of these new things qualify for, so you can combine those.


What happens if the bloodrager takes one level of Magus to get Spell Combat?

This wasn't an issue before, but now here is a class that actually uses the Magus Spell list.

So, lvl 2 magus, rest in Bloodrager?

Thoughts?


Consider me on board for making Bloodrage unique and it giving a + to Charisma instead of Constitution. I planned on posting that idea myself but people Beat me to it. Make his caster level equal to class level -3 replace Improved uncanny dodge with an ability to add a metamagic feat to a Bloodrager spell once per rage.


I have to disagree with the removal of Uncanny Dodge,
Given that the Bloodrager is more Barbarian than Sorcerer, and also more melee focused than spell focused.
So from my POV the Uncanny Dodges should stay, and not be removed.

The plus Charisma instead of Constitution, sounds good in the early stages of it's theory, but falls flat in that it would raise some problems, Spells per day, used them up, rage and get a bonus spell slot, and cast, broken.
In combat next to foes, What helps more a Boost to CON or a Boost to CHA,
CON = HP, FORT saves, where CHA = Spell DC, of which there are few spells per day, So the winner is CON.

Dark Archive

More Bloodlines should be like the arcane blood line and have a few spells that activate when entering a blood rage.


The idea is to encourage the use of spells during bloodrage a little more. Currently the incentive to cast compared to just be a Barbarian is low. Also the loss to Fortitude and temporary hit points is intentional as right now the Bloodrager might actually be a better Barbarian than a Barbarian. I can tell you one of my players is going Gaga over this class as all he plays are barbarians. He may never play a regular Barbarian again. I also edited my original post keeping uncanny dodge but losing Improved uncanny dodge. We will be playtesting the class as written on Sunday alongside the War Priest.

Sczarni

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It is strange to have a class based on the sorcerer and barbarian mixed together, with a spontaneous spellcasting, but that does not gain Eschew Material when she gains spellcasting. She should have it.

My 5 cents: Add Eschew Material at Fourth Level to the Bloodrager. She is a sorcerous barbarian, why would you take out a spell components in a bloodrage? You're supposed to channeled the power inside, not do the same wizard tricks with spell components.


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Caïen wrote:

It is strange to have a class based on the sorcerer and barbarian mixed together, with a spontaneous spellcasting, but does not gain Eschew Material when he gains spellcasting. She should have it.

My 5 cents: Add Eschew Material at Fourth Level to the Bloodrager. She is a sorcerous barbarian, why would you take out a spell components in a bloodrage? You're supposed to channeled the power inside, not do the same wizard tricks with spell components.

i imagine the spellcasting of a bloodrager to be somewhere along the lines of:

he goes into a rage, begins casting the spell, but cant get the components out of his bag, so just hurles it at the bad guy and screams incoherently. the result it an explosion of arcane power when the bag hits the bad guy that somewhat resembles some other spell we've seen before.


It would be nice to have a feat that let you cast a spell on a crit as a swift/free action... something like the Eldritch Knight ability.

Either way, though, this is not a caster class... this is a way to invent new rage powers without making the barbarian EVEN BETTER.

The only thing I would miss as a bloodrager is the ablility to take the Extra Rage Power feat.

Sczarni

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Shimesen wrote:
Caïen wrote:

It is strange to have a class based on the sorcerer and barbarian mixed together, with a spontaneous spellcasting, but does not gain Eschew Material when he gains spellcasting. She should have it.

My 5 cents: Add Eschew Material at Fourth Level to the Bloodrager. She is a sorcerous barbarian, why would you take out a spell components in a bloodrage? You're supposed to channeled the power inside, not do the same wizard tricks with spell components.

i imagine the spellcasting of a bloodrager to be somewhere along the lines of:

he goes into a rage, begins casting the spell, but cant get the components out of his bag, so just hurles it at the bad guy and screams incoherently. the result it an explosion of arcane power when the bag hits the bad guy that somewhat resembles some other spell we've seen before.

Or how to turn a spellcomponent pouch into a deadly weapon. Arcane explosions guaranteed.

Nevertheless, I would like to see Improved Uncanny Dodge transformed into an ability that can make you Quickened some of your spells, because with 4th level spellcasting, you are not going to quicken anything without a metamagic rod, and God knows that you will be a Two-Handed weapon combattant, since I see no reason to NOT go THW in a class built on damage and some utilities.

Sczarni

Seeker of skybreak wrote:
The idea is to encourage the use of spells during bloodrage a little more. Currently the incentive to cast compared to just be a Barbarian is low. Also the loss to Fortitude and temporary hit points is intentional as right now the Bloodrager might actually be a better Barbarian than a Barbarian. I can tell you one of my players is going Gaga over this class as all he plays are barbarians. He may never play a regular Barbarian again. I also edited my original post keeping uncanny dodge but losing Improved uncanny dodge. We will be playtesting the class as written on Sunday alongside the War Priest.

Your barbarian is not going to be outclassed. The Rage ability of the Barbarian is (Ex), while the Bloodrage is (Su). The Barbarian is going to laugh at his hybrid son in an antimagic field. In fact, the Bloodrager becomes pretty useless in an antimagic field. Your turn into a smack bot doing less than any martial classes. At least the wizard could step out of the antimagic field and do a mage's disjunction. Hope you have a wizard, or a way to destroy the AMF.

Shadow Lodge

Caïen wrote:
Seeker of skybreak wrote:
The idea is to encourage the use of spells during bloodrage a little more. Currently the incentive to cast compared to just be a Barbarian is low. Also the loss to Fortitude and temporary hit points is intentional as right now the Bloodrager might actually be a better Barbarian than a Barbarian. I can tell you one of my players is going Gaga over this class as all he plays are barbarians. He may never play a regular Barbarian again. I also edited my original post keeping uncanny dodge but losing Improved uncanny dodge. We will be playtesting the class as written on Sunday alongside the War Priest.
Your barbarian is not going to be outclassed. The Rage ability of the Barbarian is (Ex), while the Bloodrage is (Su). The Barbarian is going to laugh at his hybrid son in an antimagic field. In fact, the Bloodrager becomes pretty useless in an antimagic field. Your turn into a smack bot doing less than any martial classes. At least the wizard could step out of the antimagic field and do a mage's disjunction. Hope you have a wizard, or a way to destroy the AMF.

Ouch, didn't notice that. Well, you probably already have a two-handed weapon, so power attacking the source of the AMF should not be too hard.

Silver Crusade

Shimesen wrote:

upon beginning my "break the new classes" run for character building for my groups next upcoming campaign which will be Tomb of Horrors, i discovered something interesting about this class: it uses the magus spell list...not that big of a deal until you consider multiclassing into magus with it. normally, to combine any other casting class with magus, you need a three level dip in magus at a minimum in order to obtain a magus arcana to allow you take have access to your other spellcasting classes spells with spellcombat and spellstrike. but since these two classes use the same spell list, i at at a standstill with building this class...can i actually only take a two level dip in magus and still make full use of spellcombat and spellstrike?

my after thinking it over and arguing with my groupmate about it, i think i may have an answer, but feel that it needs to be rewritten as such. while the bloodrager and magus spell lists are identical, they are still entirely seperate lists within themselves and must be listed as such to maintain efficient balance for the purpose or magus cross-classing. otherwise we are going to see a brutal influx of bloodrager x, magus 2 builds as it will become the best possible spellstrike/spellcombat build in the game with a 19 BAB and access to all the touch spells a 20th level magus relies on normally for spellstrikes. in addition, he'll have an oddly large number of usable spells per day due to the increased spell slots granted from 2 levels of magus for 1st level spells.

See this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Spell Combat: What spells can I cast when using spell combat?

The relevant text of the ability is:

"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."

The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.

(Other magus abilities may modify what spells can be used with spell combat. For example, the broad study magus arcana explicitly states the magus can use spell combat to cast spells from the selected non-magus spellcasting class.)

Sczarni

Ninjaxenomorph wrote:
Caïen wrote:
Seeker of skybreak wrote:
The idea is to encourage the use of spells during bloodrage a little more. Currently the incentive to cast compared to just be a Barbarian is low. Also the loss to Fortitude and temporary hit points is intentional as right now the Bloodrager might actually be a better Barbarian than a Barbarian. I can tell you one of my players is going Gaga over this class as all he plays are barbarians. He may never play a regular Barbarian again. I also edited my original post keeping uncanny dodge but losing Improved uncanny dodge. We will be playtesting the class as written on Sunday alongside the War Priest.
Your barbarian is not going to be outclassed. The Rage ability of the Barbarian is (Ex), while the Bloodrage is (Su). The Barbarian is going to laugh at his hybrid son in an antimagic field. In fact, the Bloodrager becomes pretty useless in an antimagic field. Your turn into a smack bot doing less than any martial classes. At least the wizard could step out of the antimagic field and do a mage's disjunction. Hope you have a wizard, or a way to destroy the AMF.
Ouch, didn't notice that. Well, you probably already have a two-handed weapon, so power attacking them should not be too bad.

Yup, but you have no your Bloodrage bonuses. So your less than a fighter on this. The rogue is going to sneak attack, and you will be sitting there trying to Power Attack. The Bloodrager is MAD: you want to be as martial as a Barbarian, but you cannot dump Charisma like in every other build. Dump Intelligence, but you end up with no skill points at all, un less you're human. That is maybe not a bad thing, because you trade efficacity for versatiliy. Nonetheless, in a AMF you pretty much screwed. Even the sorcerer bloodlines have (Ex) abilities, while the Bloodrager relies too much on (Su) abilities. I think the Bloodrage should fall into (Ex), but that it should give less Strenght bonus for a +2 bonus to Charisma. Since it is temporary, you could rule that it does not give bonus spells per day. You'd end with a more balanced class, bloodrage would be a unique ability. +2 Str, +2 Cha, +4 Con is nice and rounds the class a lot more. The Con bonus should stay, because you'll likely be a melee gish than a ranged one. In addition, some Bloodline powers should fall into the (Ex) category. Now we need to weigh the abilities to not make a more powerful character in a AMF than pure martial ones, but something between spellcasters and martial characters.


I know SKR has pointed out solid reasons to avoid giving these classes their own spell lists. I think there's definitely value in doing so, because it lets you shift spell levels around to accommodate the 4 levels of spells, and also to help indicate what the class is expected to be casting.

As a 4-level caster, I don't see a great need for a way to break normal action economy to cast and fight at the same time... but I do think it would help if the class is going to have as much of an array of offensive spells as the Magus list has. (An alternate approach, with a custom spell list, would just to include some spells that are already swift actions, similar to the Litany line.) That is to say, with a spell list fairly packed with offensive spells, the writeup is saying to players "your Bloodrager shouldn't just be packing buffs and spells that play well with melee attackers like bladed dash and emergency recovery options like vampiric touch, but hey, everybody loves fireball". But with a list written for the class, you can affect that perception as appropriate.

It seems like it might be valuable to have some bloodlines modify the rage directly; not just Arcane's very nice selection of buffs, but things like changing the stat buffs. The Fey bloodline providing a Dexterity bonus was mentioned. Perhaps a bloodline or archetype providing a Charisma-boosting rage would favor a more caster-focused option.

Speaking of Arcane, I find the True Arcane Bloodrage selection of buff spells odd. Beast Shape IV and Form of the Dragon I are just fine polymorph spells, though definitely not what I would think of in the context of the rest of the bloodline, which, broadly speaking, is about enhancement, not transformation. It seems like a decent chunk of the benefits of Transformation are things the Bloodrager will already have by level 16. Plus it seems that all three choices in True Arcane Bloodrage take away spellcasting, though I presume you can choose to not apply any of the three if you want.

And looking at the spells per day, I'm not sure what to make of it. It seems to start off a bit better than the Paladin & Ranger, getting 1 spell instead of 0 at 4th, and so on, but then ending up at the same point as them, except for what I assume is a typo on the 4th level spells at level 20 (3 for Paladin & Ranger, 2 for the Bloodrager). I assume that, similar to how Magus, Bard, and Inquisitor all have equal spells per day, the Bloodrager is not supposed to have more spells per day due to being spontaneous as opposed to prepared, but that makes me wonder why they start off higher but end in the same place.


I think that the class could take out a lot of the class features from barbarian (uncanny dodge, fast movement, damage reduction) in favor of adding features that synergize with its casting. Maybe spellstrike or something that lets them cast a spell when entering a bloodrage. As it is, they have very little use for offensive spells, since they're way better off just attacking with their weapon. I also think that just way too much was copied over from the barbarian, which takes away some uniqueness from the bloodrager.

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