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I think I'm alright without more spell levels -- I just want more spells per day.
The sorcerer is the casting class this connects to so it seems right to me that it would have more spells per day than other 20 and 4 classes would.
My other thoughts are I see this guy like a sith warrior -- I don't want him to simply be a 'buff myself then melee' type -- I want him to be an offensive overwhelmer type -- he comes in hitting hard then casts a damage spell that also hits hard. His tricks maybe simple but they are also brutal.
Basically I would like to see his damaging spells be really damaging, even if low level -- yeah he might only cast fireball, but it should be the nastiest fireball you've seen (generally speaking, not like best optimized fireball you've ever seen).
If it was built into his rage mechanic I would be okay with that.
Other than that a way to trade rage for magic and magic for rage would be awesome.
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Thankfully there's d20pfsrd.com AND the PRD that you can just point new players to, for free even =)
Yep , I though of that too. I wasn't suggesting that the class needed a unique spell list to solve this minor issue. What I'm saying is that the bloodrager spells section doesn't have the pfsrd listed as a possible resource, it just has the ultimate magic. It really should be there. The play-test is for pointing out these kind of oversights.
Edited, I didn't want to sound sarcastic.
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So then does that mean after I drop both rages I would be exhausted? Since both rage fatiuge me then one would fatigue and the other would upgrade the fatuiged to exhausted. And how long would the exhausted last for?
There's also a bunch of questions about how the Skald's raging song interacts with (blood)rage.
I'm thinking it would be nice to get some spontaneous Empower Spell, whether from uses/day or some other mechanic.
I think they may need a way to boost save DCs. Most Magus spells are save-agnostic, but there is poor little fireball. Or maybe just pump the damage (see above) so that when the enemy inevitably saves, it still hurts. Honestly, I think of these spells as mainly for battlefield clearing, not the bloodrager's main offense.
So, here's my idea. A Cha-based energy pool that rips off the deprecated Arcanist mechanic. Steal that. And let it recharge in a similar fashion to grit, by dealing a crit, felling a foe, or having a foe fail a saving throw DC. That would give them something truly their own.
Where did he say that? I just know he closed my topic specifically asking about Fiendish Sorcery.Well, so far the bloodrager bloodlines do not qualify for the items and feats and other such things, that mention sorcerer bloodlines, it would seem. I believe I remember reading SKR say a tiefling's "Fiendish Sorcery" ability would not function for a tiefling bloodrager. So, that would mean a Robe of Arcane Heritage, Dragon Disciple, etc would not work in tandem with a bloodrager. My understanding would be a bloodrager could be of any bloodline (arcane, for example, as everyone has latched onto that), and take the Dragon Disciple prestige class, and would then obtain the Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline, and his bloodrager bloodline would not advance as he advanced in Dragon Disciple.
And the bloodrager's limited spell selection could also be increased by the feat "Expanded Arcana", giving them more spells known.
I don't know which way I lean concerning the interaction between the sorcerer and bloodrager bloodlines. Making them interchangeable (dragon disciple advances the draconic bloodrager bloodline, a bloodrager can use the robe, etc) would give the bloodrager some decent options. Making them seperate (an abyssal bloodrager taking the Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) feat, etc) could make for some interesting characters, but also would need certain things that apply to the bloodrager and can't affect the sorcerer.
Apparently, I am unable to find it, so just disregard my previous comment.
gotta agree with abraham spalding here--there's gotta be something changed. buffing what few spells he actually gets, or expanding how much/high his casting goes by, since currently the class just seems like a more melee-focused magus, minus all the perks that actually let the whole gish thing work, as well as lacking the swift action spells and such that makes the paladin at least competent at throwing out helpful spells during combat.
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Pros:
Barbarian with limited spellcasting
Effectively granted bloodline powers
Cons:
*limited* spellcasting
Potential issue
Natural reach at 4th level (Aberrant).
Demonic Bulk (as Enlarge Person) at 4th level (Abyssal). Needs clarification. Rage+Enlarge Person as a combined swift action?
Angelic Attacks (Celestial). Good align + 1d6. Great...but only vs. evil outsiders so very narrow focus.
I don't see vs Evil Outsiders as being very narrow at all, that's a LOT of targets and also the natural enemy of celestials.
Cons:
*limited* spellcasting
This is not so much a Con I think as it is people trying to put the Bloodrager in a design space it's not meant to be.
It's not a caster, no more than a Ranger or Paladin is. It's in the same niche they are - combatant with a bit of magical backup.
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Cons:
*limited* spellcastingThis is not so much a Con I think as it is people trying to put the Bloodrager in a design space it's not meant to be.
It's not a caster, no more than a Ranger or Paladin is. It's in the same niche they are - combatant with a bit of magical backup.
Magical Backup I think is a great way to describe this class as well as Paladin and Ranger.
In the game I'm currently playing in my Ranger only has two spells: Keep Watch and Lead Blades. Doesn't really need anything else.
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Cons:
*limited* spellcastingThis is not so much a Con I think as it is people trying to put the Bloodrager in a design space it's not meant to be.
It's not a caster, no more than a Ranger or Paladin is. It's in the same niche they are - combatant with a bit of magical backup.
I think people are getting hung up on that when they see "Magus spell list". To me, it seems people see that, and think why isn't it more like the Magus? Because it is supposed to be more like the paladin and ranger. It is the arcane version of the Paladin and Ranger. Just like the Magus is the arcane counterpart to the Inquisitor and the Hunter is their nature-based counterpart.
Magus = Inquisitor = Hunter (6th level spellcasters with a martial bent)
Paladin = Ranger = Bloodrager (4th level spellcasters focused more on martial prowess)
The bloodrager is not supposed to try to be like the magus, but is trying to be like the paladin and ranger. He would rather be in his opponent's face smashing them with a big weapon instead of in the back throwing spells around, but will throw them around if needed.
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Let's not go overboard with spell needs for a 4 level caster class.
It isn't like ranger spells are the focus of the class.
Keep it simple is more a mantra I would take. I think removing some of the overlap barbarian abilities to avoid toe step and you still have a very powerful martial class that can cast a limited number of spells.
Which is the goal I would shoot for.
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So, the Barbarian presence in this class is very strong. Rage, Greater Rage, Mighty Rage, Tireless Rage, and powers usable during Rage. Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge (and Improved), and DR.
I like that your powers are changed/flavored by your bloodline. I think that element should be emphasized a bit more, that your form really is twisting and changing to give you these bloodrage powers.
This class reminds me of Cu Chulainn, and his legendary riastrad, aka warp spasm.
In fact, to differentiate it for Sorcerer bloodlines which work differently, I would suggest changing the name from "Bloodrager bloodlines" to something like "Heritages."
The class name, and primary power, could be renamed from Bloodrager and bloodrage to something like warp, spasm, or twist, to emphasize the physical transformation that is going on. I like Rampager for the class name, and Warp Fury or Twisted Fury as the ability name.
I do think it suffers a bit on the action economy side. Raging increases attack potential, but you can't attack and cast at the same time. While Spell Combat could help this, I think it is best saved to be Magus exclusive. The Magus list does have a decent amount of buff spells that casting can be a pre-combat or 1st round exercise followed by attacking, so it isn't horrible either.
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Let's not go overboard with spell needs for a 4 level caster class.
It isn't like ranger spells are the focus of the class.
Keep it simple is more a mantra I would take. I think removing some of the overlap barbarian abilities to avoid toe step and you still have a very powerful martial class that can cast a limited number of spells.Which is the goal I would shoot for.
Yeah but this guy is also a sorcerer hybrid -- I am expecting magic to be kind of a big part of what he does.
Again I don't need high levels, but I see this guy as a damager -- where the paladin is a tank (of sorts) and the ranger is utility -- this guy is a bruiser through and through.
I want him to be able to lay out damage both physical and magical. In order for that to happen he needs enough spells to lay them out on damage and they need to deal enough damage to make them worth spending actions on.
The last thing I want out of a sorcerer hybrid is another magic side note, self buffing meh martial.
Martial bruiser? Absolutely -- but he isn't just that, half of where he is coming from is an absolute font of magical energy.
Again 20 and 4 is fine... if he gets enough of the 4 and the 4 is effective when it is used.
Leave subtle buffing to others -- this guy seems all flash to me.
Instead of full-on Spell Combat, like what the magus receives, why not a modified version of Spell Combat, available exclusively for the bloodrager. Not sure how this would power up the bloodrager, but it got me thinking of it after seeing SO MANY people compare this class to the magus, and only becomes available at 6th level, when they get an extra attack.
Insert Cool Ability Name Here
A bloodrager is able to cast a spell the same round as he can attack. This casting takes the place of his other attacks for that round. Thus, a bloodrager would make his weapon attack at his full BAB and could cast a spell that takes up the rest of his attacks for that round. And if the spell requires an attack roll, it uses the attack bonus of the 2nd attack (+6/+1 would be a +6 to the attack roll for the weapon, and the +1 for the spell).
I don't know. Just had that rolling in my mind and thought I would put it out there.
I'd be quite happy to see more spell slots on the Bloodrager. It's always a bit weird to me when a prepared caster and a spontaneous one have the same number of spell slots on the chart. (And as I mentioned before, it's a little weird that the Bloodrager starts ahead of Paladin/Ranger and ends up equal (barring the one presumed typo).
As a 4th-level caster, he's not going to have very powerful spells, relatively. His spell levels are at best half of a full caster, and that affects both the raw power of the spells and their DCs. So does having Cha as a secondary, at best, ability score. I'd rather see his ability to use magic directly to destroy be part of a bloodline. Still, a little more direct spellcasting power would be nice. Ditch a couple of Barbarian features (possibly even downgrade the Rage effect itself), for limited-use metamagic'ing (Quicken & Empower, especially). But I could do without this.
Magic is a big part of what the Bloodrager does. It's just that most of it isn't "casting magical spells", so much as "being magical". Bloodrage itself is magic that the Bloodrager does.
I would suggest Bloodrage itself should be (Ex), but the bloodline powers affecting it should be (Su). The general Barbarian effects remain (Ex), while the specific abilities from your heritage are (Su) makes sense (and keeps the class from being extra-hosed in an anti-magic field).
I'm good with keeping the Bloodlines as Bloodlines; it keeps that Sorcerer flavor, it keeps you from being a Draconic Bloodrager who also has Eldritch Heritage (Draconic). The Draconic + Dragon Disciple needs a clarification; I'd assume you must have Draconic Bloodrager Bloodline much as you must have Draconic Sorcerer Bloodline, and I'd play it that way in the absence of an official ruling; it's a pretty obvious extrapolation to me.
Now I just have to convince someone to run a one-shot I can playtest in. Or run one of my own and rebuild an NPC enemy or two. But finding time has not been easy so far.
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on cellphone, so apologies for a lack of formating.
ability suggestion.
rampaging spell. replaces uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, and the damage reduction.
when casting a spell that does damage adds class level to the spell damage, double when raging. at the damage reduction levels it also increases the spell dc by 1 when raging. the dc increase increases each time the bloodrager would have gotten another point of dr.
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If the bloodrager is going to successfully fulfill the design space of an arcane analogue to the ranger and paladin (as it should) it badly needs its own spell list. The magus spell-list is thematically mis-matched for this class since it focuses on damaging combat spells and a bloodrager is unlikely to be doing damage with spells in favor of just ripping people's faces off in meele. The bloodrager needs a spell-list focusing on self-buffs and situational spells to manipulate the combat environment along with some utility spells. This would thematically fit the class both flavor wise (their arcane power gets channeled inwards to self-buff) as well as mechanically (they are not going to be relying on spells in combat).
This will also allow both some spells at lower spells levels like the ranger and paladin get to ensure timely access to certain important effects as well as potentially allowing future bloodrager-specific spells just as there are numerous paladin-specific spells.
Also there is not other example of a class using a spell list which is mismatched in terms of what level of spell it goes up to. That is not necessarily a good argument but just an interesting bit of precedent.
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I feel like a lot of people in this thread are underestimating the non-damage spells of the Magus list. Magus also has access to things like Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, etc. These are the spells I am looking for with the Bloodrager.
It's directly in line with Paladin/Ranger where the spells are mostly utility/buff type spells. I want to be getting in to combat, casting my Mirror Image, and then charging in as a Barbarian that is harder to stop. Casting Arcane spells in Medium Armor is huge and the amount of defenses this class can layer while still being a giant bruiser is incredible.
If you want to be swinging and casting offensive spells, play the Magus. That's not what this class is.
I would like to see something other than DR and Uncanny Dodge on the class, to bring more of the Sorcerer flavor as right now it's basically just trading Rage Powers for More Different Rage Powers from a bloodline, particularly with certain ones. Draconic Bloodline felt like a Beast Totem Barbarian, getting claws, then natural armor. Arcane Bloodline felt amazing and exactly like the kind of things I want to be getting with these. Likewise with Abyssal, it really feels like a demonic outburst of power.
Right now, it feels like Ranger and Paladin have a TON of fluffy, relevant, but not necessarily Combat oriented abilities, and I'd like to see something like that here. Maybe Detect Magic as an SLA similar to the Paladin's Detect Evil; or bonuses against specific schools of magic in a manner similar to Favored Terrains.
Just building a Blood Rager and noticed with the Arcane bloodline at level 16 that once you use the power you stop being able to cast spells. It kind of seems counter intuitive to the rest of the class. beast shape - no hands, Transformation - no casting or anything spell like. Form of the Dragon--- questionable because dragons cast spells.
Anyway maybe instead of Transformation and beastshape you go with Monstrous physique 4 or giantform 1 or 2... separating them from wild shape or dragon disciple a bit too.
Anyway - lots of fun in this class.
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Maybe Detect Magic as an SLA similar to the Paladin's Detect Evil;Oh wow, this. Not game breaking, but gives them that extra something that adds a very 'magical' flavor to the furious monstrosity with the falchion.
Also in favor of this. it'd tie in with the innate magical ability of the class.
BR: "Wait, you mean you guys have to actually Cast spells in order to see magic? Wow you must lead a dreary existence."
The bloodrager can't get more "sorcerer"-y than it already is. Except for Eschew Materials, there is nothing else that a sorcerer gets that the bloodrager doesn't already have. So, with that in mind, what would replace the Uncanny Dodges and Damage Reductions? Eschew Materials? I don't think that is a very comparable trade-off.
So a bloodrager abbysal bloodline) level 6 half orc
Asunda Zyperion IV
20 point build
Str 19( +2half orc and+1for level 4+2for belt)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 13
HP : around 59( with favored class bonus)
Fort+8
Reflex: +5
Will: +6(8 vs charm and compulsion)
Toothy alternate race trait
Feats: power attack , iron will, arcana strike, Toughness,
Traits: birth mark, armor master,
Spells known: truestrike, shield, vanish, expeditious retreat. 2/day
Equipment: amulet of MF +1, mithril brast plate, ring of prot+1, belt +2str, cloak of res +1, some potions and low level wands.
Skills: acrobatics perception, Spell craft, mande out and the other class skills have one rank each.
In the near future she will get craft wonderous items. And later lunge, and even later pehaps IUA and dragon style 1 and 2 and feral combat training ( claws)
At level 6 she will have somthing like + 11 to hit and +14 to Dam with 3 attacks her AC will only be 17 but she will be large and have reach to compensate.
She will need a Bardiche and a sling for when Rageing is no good idea or when she need could iron pehaps.
But i guess abbysal bloodline is the easy one?
Edit: forgot to name her
At level 6 she will have something like + 11 to hit and +14 to damage with three attacks. Her AC will only be 17 but she will be large and have reach to compensate.
Who cares about AC 17? Pop a shield spell and mage armor, or perhaps mirror image at level 7.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but shouldn't this class be unable to be lawful? Because as written, you can be a bloodrager monk or paladin, which makes no sense, since you can't be a barbarian monk or paladin. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see why adding spellcasting to a barbarian would make that barbarian more inclined (or for that matter, allowed) to be lawful.
Basically it seems like either this class should be unable to be lawful, or barbarians should be able to be lawful.
So a bloodrager abbysal bloodline) level 6 half orc
Asunda Zyperion IV
20 point build
Str 19( +2half orc and+1for level 4+2for belt)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 13
HP : around 59( with favored class bonus)
Fort+8
Reflex: +5
Will: +6(8 vs charm and compulsion)
Toothy alternate race trait
Feats: power attack , iron will, arcana strike, Toughness,
Traits: birth mark, armor master,
Spells known: truestrike, shield, vanish, expeditious retreat. 2/day
Equipment: amulet of MF +1, mithril brast plate, ring of prot+1, belt +2str, cloak of res +1, some potions and low level wands.
Skills: acrobatics perception, Spell craft, mande out and the other class skills have one rank each.In the near future she will get craft wonderous items. And later lunge, and even later pehaps IUA and dragon style 1 and 2 and feral combat training ( claws)
At level 6 she will have somthing like + 11 to hit and +14 to Dam with 3 attacks her AC will only be 17 but she will be large and have reach to compensate.
She will need a Bardiche and a sling for when Rageing is no good idea or when she need could iron pehaps.But i guess abbysal bloodline is the easy one?
Edit: forgot to name her
I was just reminded that rage takes from AC as well. She will have AC 15 when large and raging. That is a bit low. And pehaps she will only have + 10 to hit.
But she is doing fine so far even with the reduced hit and ac
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but shouldn't this class be unable to be lawful? Because as written, you can be a bloodrager monk or paladin, which makes no sense, since you can't be a barbarian monk or paladin. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see why adding spellcasting to a barbarian would make that barbarian more inclined (or for that matter, allowed) to be lawful.
Basically it seems like either this class should be unable to be lawful, or barbarians should be able to be lawful.
It was mentioned within the first 10 replies (I asked the same thing), and it is not a typo. So, you could be a monk or paladin bloodrager if you wanted. I thought it was strange myself, but it opens up some nice concepts.
Who cares about AC 17? Pop a shield spell and mage armor, or perhaps mirror image at level 7.At level 6 she will have something like + 11 to hit and +14 to damage with three attacks. Her AC will only be 17 but she will be large and have reach to compensate.
Quite rigth under ideal circumstances. But some rigths start without me noticing them or there May be more than 2 a Day but with a wand of shield she is not in bad shape if she have a round or 2 for preperation.
It was mentioned within the first 10 replies (I asked the same thing), and it is not a typo. So, you could be a monk or paladin bloodrager if you wanted. I thought it was strange myself, but it opens up some nice concepts.
Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that it can be lawful, but it seems unfair to barbarians. Personally I think barbarians should be lawful too. The way I see it, a barbarian is basically a primitive warrior, and while they are certainly less likely to be lawful, I feel like every once in a while there would be a lawful one. So why not allow people to be that lawful one?
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but shouldn't this class be unable to be lawful? Because as written, you can be a bloodrager monk or paladin, which makes no sense, since you can't be a barbarian monk or paladin. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see why adding spellcasting to a barbarian would make that barbarian more inclined (or for that matter, allowed) to be lawful.
Basically it seems like either this class should be unable to be lawful, or barbarians should be able to be lawful.
The any alignment has specifically mentioned to be intentional. I do not mind this.
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As a Bloodrager I'd rather spend a round of rage killing stuff with my weapon, not casting a spell. It's very much in need of a spell combat lite ability. Maybe as part of going into rage they can cast a personal range spell. Or to avoid rage cycling free spells (at much later levels) make it part of a charge action. Since barbarians want to charge into combat anyways it takes care of that pesky first round "buff and move action" phase. It takes care of a "dead round" where you're not killing things. Plus a Bloodrager doing charge and getting enlarged, or mirror imaged, is pretty intimidating. Just my 2 cents.
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***Official Update***
The following changes have been made to the bloodrager. These changes have also been added to the first post of this thread.
• Add Spellcraft to the list of Bloodrager class skills.
• At 4th level, the Bloodrager gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.
Also, this has been brought up with the skald as well, but consider letting bloodrage qualify as rage for rage feats (such as raging vitality), so they're not deprived of existing support from the get-go, and prevent the need to make slightly modified versions of existing stuff just for the new hybrid.
Also, this has been brought up with the skald as well, but consider letting bloodrage qualify as rage for rage feats (such as raging vitality), so they're not deprived of existing support from the get-go, and prevent the need to make slightly modified versions of existing stuff just for the new hybrid.
Bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s rage class ability for the purpose of qualifying for feat prerequisites, magic item abilities, and spell effects.
welp, i cant read apparently. disregard my previous post (does raise the question why the skald doesn't get the same treatment though).
Cons:
*limited* spellcastingThis is not so much a Con I think as it is people trying to put the Bloodrager in a design space it's not meant to be.
It's not a caster, no more than a Ranger or Paladin is. It's in the same niche they are - combatant with a bit of magical backup.
I think people are getting hung up on that when they see "Magus spell list". To me, it seems people see that, and think why isn't it more like the Magus? Because it is supposed to be more like the paladin and ranger. It is the arcane version of the Paladin and Ranger. Just like the Magus is the arcane counterpart to the Inquisitor and the Hunter is their nature-based counterpart.
Magus = Inquisitor = Hunter (6th level spellcasters with a martial bent)
Paladin = Ranger = Bloodrager (4th level spellcasters focused more on martial prowess)The bloodrager is not supposed to try to be like the magus, but is trying to be like the paladin and ranger. He would rather be in his opponent's face smashing them with a big weapon instead of in the back throwing spells around, but will throw them around if needed.
I made this same sentiment awhile back.
Again the Magus spelllist isn't full of damage and blasty spells. It has all the nice staples of buffs that Wiz/Sorcs get as well.
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I didn't see this get asked (I very well may have missed it in the last 7 pages), but if a Bloodrager took Extra Rage, would he get more rounds of Bloodrage? Should he?
Either that or B. they're gonna have Extra Bloodrage in the final book, or C. Just rename it, the feat does the exact same thing pretty much.
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Rynjin reposted the line in the bloodrage description like 3 posts up.
I know that they qualify for extra rage, but extra rage gives more rounds of rage, not bloodrage. The difference is bloodrage is an SU ability with a different name and a few other changes due to bloodline. It wouldn't give extra rounds of bloodrage RACW(rules as currently written).