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Thanks for the help!

I finally talked to my GM, and we are using what I originally thought: the character gets the bonus when either one of his classes' atributes increase. Also, he has changed his mind about the ban of the ACG, so I am going back to my origional concept of Boodrager instead of sorcerer.

I do know that my GM wants us to take the best abilities from either classes, but since no one in my group ever multiclassed a gestalt before, it never mattered whether my original interpretation of taking the increase, or taking the better sum of the side is right. I will ask my GM when I get a chance.

Oops! I just realized that I was doing bab wrong. I would just increase it if it increased on either side. This means that I would not have a full bab with my current build, and might redesign part of it.

The reason I am taking dd and sorcerer at the same time is because sorcerer was originally Bloodrager. My original concept was to make a character with a high strength using blood rage, the abyssal bonuses, crossblooded/Draconic to get dd, and eldritch heritage to get the orc bloodline bonuses. Then, my GM banned the acg classes, so I switched to sorcerer and became a full caster, but still with a lot of the str madness.

To further justify this decision, we are using Canthin's rules about taking the better rather than the average bab, skill ranks, etc. I figured that if I started dd at 6th level and sorcerer, I would still have a full bab.

Finally, I have an even weirder question about crossblooded, and dd. For crosblooded, you choose a bloodline power from either of your bloodlines when you gain a bloodline power. DD stacks with the Draconic bloodline. Since I am taking both sorcerer and dd for 10 levels, can I get both powers by choosing the abyssal power with sorcerer and gaining the Draconic power through dd?

Thanks again for answering my previous questions. Although I know there aren't official rules for this, I at least want your opinions on how this works.


For a gestalt campaign, I am working on a gish that will eventually take levels in dragon disciple. I will not go too in depth with my build, but we are starting at level 3, and my plan is sorcerer 3 (crossblooded, draconian and abyssal)/ Lorewarden fighter 2, ranger 1.

Firstly, I am confused by the base saves. Do you just take the highest increase each level as in normal multiclassing, or do you just keep the best saves?

Also, I am confused about the extra spellcasting levels that come from DD. I am expecting to take levels in DD and sorcerer at the same time. Although I would not expect the levels to stack for spellcasting, my friend thought that they would. There is a similar problem with the levels of DD counting for levels of the Draconic bloodline. I guess this is something that the rules might not cover, because it's gestalt but does anyone have any idea how this works?


I just realized that you can get around the problems of spells and hexes in rage casting in rage with the Urban Barbarian archetype. Although I would not be getting the same bonus to strength for melee combat, I could still make really amazing hexes like Nate Lange suggested.

I still like the idea with the Vivisectionist, though, and will most likely play it. I like the invisibility and enlarge person with Duerger.

Although the idea of a DC 19 slumber at 2nd level is amazing, I am not sure that you can use Hexes while raging. The core rulebook says, "While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration." I would think that a hex requires concentration to use..

Would a 14 Int be acceptable? I want a high Str and Con, so I think I can probably get a headband to bring it to a 16 before I need to make higher level extracts.

Also, any suggestions for good races? I don't think Orc is the best option anymore. I think the GM will probably let me use the Lizardfolk example race in the ARG. I am tired of being a human, and would like to try another race.

I think the Vivisectionist is currently the best choice after consideration. I will try this out. Thanks for the help!

Thanks for the input. I was considering taking oracle with the lame curse, but I think someone else in the party is looking into oracle.

I completely forgot about not being able to cast spells during rage, because I playtested the Bloodrager which could, so I think the Witch is out of the picture.

An alchemist would be interesting (one of my original ideas was a ragechemist Abyssal Bloodrager for the ridiculous strength bonuses), but what is the selling factor with the Vivisectionist in particular? I see sneak attack as being extremely inconsistent. Is there something else I am missing?

This post may or may not be a pointless, last-ditch effort to move this thread up in the list in order to possibly get a response.


Greetings. My friend is starting a gestalt campaign. I am deciding between two interesting builds. We are starting at level 1, but knowing the DM, I expect to level up extremely quickly.

The first is the "Barbighter", or Barbarian Fighter. I am thinking of selecting the Invulnerable Rager, and Two Handed Fighter Archetypes. I would be an Orc for the bonus to strength, and use a falchion as my primary weapon. I would dump my mental stats (except for maybe Wis for Will saves).

The next is the "Barb#tch", or Barbarian Witch. I would select the Scarred Witch Doctor, and probably again the Invulnerable Rager archetypes to compensate for the lack of armor. I can still dump my mental stats with this build (Wis too this time because of the Witch's good Will saves).

I know that the first build would probably be a stronger character in general, more useful to the party, and more fun to play, but the idea of a full spellcaster with a fast BAB, a lot of hp, a d12 HD, and other useful front line combat abilities is very tempting to try out.

Which build should I choose? Are both of these even viable? Thank you!

The entire character has not actually been created yet, my friend is still working on all of the details. I will be happy to show the GM this advice, so he can change his mind about the scroll.

As far as the patron, I am not sure, but I do know that the character is LN.

I am not the GM of this game, I am just concerned about having to put up with a combat based cleric with an overpowered imp.

As far as the scroll, the GM hesitantly allowed him to buy it.

Recently, I had an argument with a player in my gaming group about certain class features such as rogue talents and alchemist discoveries. He tried to argue that an alchemist can gain the 'extra discovery' feat at first Lvl when an alchemist would not have a discovery normally, and that the rogue can do the same with rogue talents.

He seems to think that when you select a class, you gain all of its class features, but they do not activate until you are at their required Lvl, and because of this, the prerequisite for the feats are met.

I disagree and think that you can only take the feats at second level or when you gain a discovery or rogue talent.

Can you take such feats at first level?

Thanks for the feedback. My friend is quite stubborn, and will still probably try to benefit from the ambiguity of the rules. Is there any evidence in the rules that prove this?

A certain player in my gaming group always tries to bend the rules in order to create the most overpowered PCs possible. We have finally convinced him to be a cleric, but he managed to find the Diabolist Prestige class.

He is in the process of making a level 5 cleric, 1 Diabolist because he can't seem to grasp the concept of playing a supporting character that does not deal a ton of damage. He is currently trying to get away with having a level 7 imp companion, because in the FAQ on the Diabolist page, it says that it increases the CL of his other class. The formula for imp level is Highest CL+ Diabolist level, so he thinks that the Diabolist level is counted twice.

I disagree and instead think that the Diabolist level increases separately and is only counted once. The only problem with this is that once he becomes a cleric 5, Diabolist 6 and higher, his Diabolist level will be accounted for twice, giving a level 12 imp at level 11. Surely this cannot be correct either.

How is the diabolist's imp level accounted for, and can he have a level 7 imp companion at 6th level?

Finally, if I am correct, and when your Diabolist level is your highest caster level, do you add it twice?

At least monks are far superior to rogues

honestly i wouldnt be surprised if the base monk went the same way with the next major book--or even with an archetype of the brawler when the acg actually comes out next year. the sheer logistics of trying to fix the rogue or monk (and the reprints that would follow) to keep them out of their children's shadow means that neither will ever be fixed, only replaced, and it saddens me.

NO! The monk of the core rulebook is one of the best melee class. I recently participated in an arena match with my friends. We each had to make a 20th level, 10th tier mythic, character (no spellcasters for obvious reasons) with 500,000 gp to spend on items and gear (Again, we banned wands, scrolls, and most other spellcasting items). We fought each other in tournament style 1 on 1 matches.

I was a monk, and I went undefeated, and slaughtered everyone I faced in the first round (a barbarian, a gunslinger, and a cavalier). The monk is great.

Tangent101 wrote:
Simple solution: a Rogue Talent that allows them to use Feint as a Swift action. At that point they get a full attack for the rest of their attacks using Sneak Attack damage. Have it be an Advanced Skill only usable by 11th+ level Rogues.

The problem here is that sneak attack damage for a normal rogue is not even that great. For example, a 11th level rogue only does 6d6 damage. The average is only 20, which is awful at 11th level. The damage from their normal weapon is relatively insignificant, due to the being MAD, and generally having only a small strength bonus, if any. With a good hit and sneak attack, an 11th level rogue only does an average of 30 damage per attack, if they can manage to feint.

Personally, I think the rogue is a terrible class by itself. The ninja base class is far better the rogue because of ki, poison, and the ability to take a rogue talents. When I GM-ed, my friend was a catfolk rogue. He could barely contribute to my combat-intensive quests, and ended up dying three times, when no one else died once. The quests were not even too hard; he died at the hands of a CR 2 skeleton champion while at level four. Each time, he would come back as a "better" rogue that was just as bad as his last one.

The main problem with the "rogue" type class is its dependency on sneak attack. The ninja solves this problem with ninja tricks like "Vanishing Trick" that allow you to use sneak attack more often. The new classes seem to solve this problem by relaxing the rogue's dependency on sneak attack.

I am currently multiclassing as a monk/ninja in my friend's campaign. This build seems to be an effective build. Using Wisdom instead of Charisma for ki is nice, and using sneak attack on fury of blows is amazing. The two classes are very similar and stack nicely.

When I first heard of the new hybrid classes, I anticipated a monk/ninja or at least a monk/rogue to convert my character for a better build. I was angry when I did not see the build.

What other combinations have not been made, and why does this build not exist?!?!

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This thread is for discussing the Bloodrager. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.

Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


The following updates apply to the Bloodrager.

• Add Spellcraft to the list of Bloodrager class skills.

• On the Bloodrager table, the bloodline power gained at 3rd level should be moved to 4th level to match the individual bloodline entries.

The Bloodrager seems like an awesome class, but I see one major problem with it. This is its compatibility with the Dragon Disciple prestige class. This class gives a +4 to strength and a +2 to constitution, which greatly improves melee combat. Although this does not work too will with the spell casting sorcerer that is largely unconcerned with melee, this buffs the Bloodrager almost unfairly.