|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think comparing the 4 level spells to the absolute best two rage power lines is so smart a thing to do...It'll give you skewed results. On average, the bloodrageline abilities are stronger than the average rage power.
Which is why I think removing barbarian specific stuff makes sense. Fast movement going also wouldn't bother me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think comparing the 4 level spells to the absolute best two rage power lines is so smart a thing to do...It'll give you skewed results. On average, the bloodrageline abilities are stronger than the average rage power.Which is why I think removing barbarian specific stuff makes sense. Fast movement going also wouldn't bother me.
It does seem sort of silly to have fast movement and the ability to cast Expeditious Retreat in the same class.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bloodragers can cast their spells in OR out of bloodrage. Jason Bulmahn stated such earlier in the thread. I am sure it is even updated in the OP.
Not updated in OP, but yeah, they can cast out of rage.
Even if an Archtype doesn't fix this, I've now got an idea in my head who is setting up shop and I fear won't go away until played.
Thorg is a bloodrager. Thorg does not understand doing fancy magic, just look at his 0 spellcraft, but Thorg makes things happen. When Thorg needs something done, Thorg tells reality what to do, and it usually goes pretty well.
Summoning Mount is not some arcane act for Thorg. Thorg shouts at reality, "Thorg wants a horse now, and reality better not deny Thorg a horse." and a horse appears. Thorg is satisfied. Sometimes, sometimes Thorg is really angry at reality, things get weird then as his arcane bloodline becomes really apparent, and reality just lets Thorg get his way for a bit (bloodrage bloodline powers).
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I see bloodragers as elite shock troops. They live in special camps, chanting while waving their weapons, tattooing their faces, bathing in eldritch energies, drinking psychedelic beverages, and practicing arcane incantations while in platoon formation. Like party animal sorcerers who like swords.
|
I agree with people that the bloodlines are not balanced. Not to say options like these (domains, sorcerer bloodlines, curses / mysteries) are always completely balanced anyway. But as cool as an elemental bloodrager might sound, I don't see myself ever picking it over Aberrant, Arcane, or Destined. Though 70ft base speed is pretty neat for level 8 Fire Bloodragers.
I don't know dude, a +1d6 energy damage to attack as early as an elemental bloodrager gets it is not anything to scoff at.
I like the class a ton, most options looks really great. A short list of concerns:
1) Several bloodlines give the ability to grow claws to attack with. While flavorful and cool, isn't this kind of power useless during a game? Sure, at low levels a bloodrager could maybe benefit from getting two attacks at full BAB with weak weapons (1d6...) instead of one attack with a two handed weapon, but a weapon very quickly becomes a MUCH stronger option. Those just don't scale enough. They also have the problem of *only* working during a rage, meaning that if the BR puts feats into making the claw attacks better, the feats do *nothing* when she isn't raging.
2) Some of the spells certain bloodlines give are odd. Why does the draconic bloodline give shield, of all spells? and some other spells have the opposite problem - they kind of fit their bloodline but are bizarre choices of a barbarian-like class in general. For example the fey bloodline gives the "deep slumber" spell - I just can't see a raging battle crazed barbarian using a spell like that.
3) Some bloodlines are indeed of different power levels. The arcane bloodline is simply insane, while the fey bloodline is nearly useless and the infernal bloodline is just a weaker version of the elemental bloodline. Let me talk about arcane bloodline for a moment here - by 8th level you have so much versatility when you enter a bloodrage, and haste on a barbarian is always a game changer. Plus, awesome bloodline spells, especially invisibility and dimension door.
4) Why does the draconic boodline gives the spell "Fly"... after you already get the ability to grow wings a level earlier? or "resist energy" a full 6 levels after you get energy resistance? seems like the spells are pointless and should be replaced.
5) The capstone abilities of all the bloodlines are lackluster. Similar things could have worked for sorcerer bloodlines because they are physical anhancments for a non physical class. But it feels like the bloodrager doesn't need an unexciting passive, it needs something else. Maybe the capstone ability should be to grant the bloodline powers already accumulated outside of rage, too? sort of a "and now you learned complete control over your blood" kind of thing?
I strongly support the idea of rage adding charisma instead of con.... or maybe even making it a choice the PC takes every time she rages ("OK, I'll go into rage, and chose to increase my CHA..."). It's a neat idea that, among other things, helps differentiate a bloodrage from a rage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) Several bloodlines give the ability to grow claws to attack with. While flavorful and cool, isn't this kind of power useless during a game? Sure, at low levels a bloodrager could maybe benefit from getting two attacks at full BAB with weak weapons (1d6...) instead of one attack with a two handed weapon, but a weapon very quickly becomes a MUCH stronger option. Those just don't scale enough. They also have the problem of *only* working during a rage, meaning that if the BR puts feats into making the claw attacks better, the feats do *nothing* when she isn't raging.
Since it's a warrior-caster, it's actually a neat little bonus for someone who uses a single-handed weapon. Longsword and claw?
2) Some of the spells certain bloodlines give are odd. Why does the draconic bloodline give shield, of all spells? and some other spells have the opposite problem - they kind of fit their bloodline but are bizarre choices of a barbarian-like class in general. For example the fey bloodline gives the "deep slumber" spell - I just can't see a raging battle crazed barbarian using a spell like that.
Maybe like this?
4) Why does the draconic boodline gives the spell "Fly"... after you already get the ability to grow wings a level earlier? or "resist energy" a full 6 levels after you get energy resistance? seems like the spells are pointless and should be replaced.
Remember, you only benefit from your bloodline powers when you rage (unless they specifically say they function out of the bloodrage), and you can cast when you aren't in your bloodrage. So, a draconic bloodrager would benefit from Fly spell for the 90% of the day he isn't in a bloodrage. Even an Aasimar, Tiefling, Ifrit, etc benefit from the Resist Energy spell, giving them resistance to an energy that they don't have. And again, they can benefit from this resistance outside of bloodrage.
And Lyee, Thorg sounds awesome, in my opinion.
I definitely agree that the bloodrager should give up a bit more of barbarian, because it just looks too good right now, though not massively too good.
Giving up some barbarian, especially if in favor of some limited quickened spellcasting (or a Spell-Combat-like ability) would be good. Getting that limited quickening would require giving up more of barbarian. That's the classic gish issue which Magus addresses with Spell Combat and most others address with Quicken Spell - having to choose, round by round, between the martial and the magical sides of your character. I think any purpose-built gish should incorporate a way to address this, at least in a limited fashion.
EDIT: On second thought, I think that as a 4-level caster, maybe we don't need that, whereas it makes more sense on a 6-level caster. The theme is more of a guy drawing on his bloodline for power while fighting than truly slinging spells. In which case, a custom spell list becomes more valuable.
A custom spell list would be nice, though that does also increase the burden of support. (i.e. I'm remembering when Wizards continually put out new books, and always, always had new spells for Sor/Wiz, Cleric, and Druid, and rarely had new spells for many of the classes with custom spell lists, especially the ones outside of Core. Hexblades barely ever got spells, etc. If the Bloodrager has a custom spell list, then spells need to get added to it periodically, which can be a hassle.) Still, having a custom spell list allows addressing concerns about late access to spells, by making them a lower level for the Bloodrager than for the Magus.
I do actually like the idea of a Charisma bonus while raging, especially if we do not remove spells with save DCs from the list. As it stands, most Bloodragers won't be able to invest in a high enough Charisma to feel confident selecting spells like fireball as a spell known, because the effectiveness will be low. Late access coupled with a low spell level (possibly even lower than usual), and a save DC based on a secondary stat, and no real expectation of taking feats like Spell Focus, will relegate those spells to "why is this even on my list?" But if bloodrage boosts Charisma, that can bring the save DC up enough to feel worth the action.
I think some bloodlines (Aberrant, Abyssal, Infernal) were written by a different person than the rest.
I want to like Destined...but it seems mediocre. It's all about not failing, instead of succeeding better (if that makes sense). It would be a good choice in a campaign where enemies pack ridiculous ACs.
To be honest I think the Bloodrager, with all it gets, is balanced against the base Barbarian. The best Barbarian rage powers are pretty awesome (pounce, superstitious/spellsunder), while the bloodrager powers are great (free buffs in rage) but not as good. Especially since a normal barb can use his powers plus collect buffs. The Bloodrager is more independent from friendly spellcasters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think it obsoletes the Barbarian. Because the Barbarian has two words that give him an edge: Rage Powers.It is more of a toe stepping question. Do we really need damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc...when we are getting 4 levels of arcane spells and bloodline like powers?
That is a good point, actually. Uncanny Dodge and DR could be removed without any problem, but I wouldn't nerf the class more than that.
AM NOT LIKING DIRECTION THIS ARE GOING.That is a good point, actually. Uncanny Dodge and DR could be removed without any problem, but I wouldn't nerf the class more than that.I don't think it obsoletes the Barbarian. Because the Barbarian has two words that give him an edge: Rage Powers.It is more of a toe stepping question. Do we really need damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc...when we are getting 4 levels of arcane spells and bloodline like powers?
Heh... This made me lol.
AM NOT LIKING DIRECTION THIS ARE GOING.
Just for giggles, I now want to write up an AM BARBARIAN bloodrager bloodline.
AM HAPPY TO INSPIRE IDEA LIKE COUSIN AM SKALD.AM NOT LIKING DIRECTION THIS ARE GOING.Just for giggles, I now want to write up an AM BARBARIAN bloodrager bloodline.
AM WELCOME!
AM HAPPY SEE YOU COUSIN.
AM ANNOYED WITH WEIRD MILK POTION THAT BRINGS MALES OF AM SPECIES TO HOME YARD.
AM NOT CLEANING UP AFTER.
AM RYSKY rolled a 1 one on her AM BLOODRAGER Disguise check I see. :)
I would remove the blood from the name and replace it with sandwich. That is my contribution.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i think keeping this class more MAD than a standard Barb was an intentional design/balance decision- and a good one!
losing access to rage powers is significant (and people have called out a lot of the classic staples- beast totem, superstitious, come and get me...), but it does seem that many of the bloodlines are dangerously close to overcompensating... you lose the option of taking extra rage power as a feat, but still- i think dropping DR would create a little bit more distinction between this and a barbarian and help maintain balance a little better (and ensure there's still a niche for barbs as the only d12, DR class).
AM WELCOME!AM HAPPY TO INSPIRE IDEA LIKE COUSIN AM SKALD.AM NOT LIKING DIRECTION THIS ARE GOING.Just for giggles, I now want to write up an AM BARBARIAN bloodrager bloodline.AM HAPPY SEE YOU COUSIN.
AM ANNOYED WITH WEIRD MILK POTION THAT BRINGS MALES OF AM SPECIES TO HOME YARD.
AM NOT CLEANING UP AFTER.
AM NOT MY IDEA. AM NOT SKALD'S KIND OF MUSIC. AM BLAMING SWASHBUCKLER.
It's a person whose fury comes not from emotional rage but from innate internal power.
SWASHBUCKLER OR AM SWASHBUCKLER?AM NOT MY IDEA. AM NOT SKALD'S KIND OF MUSIC. AM BLAMING SWASHBUCKLER.AM WELCOME!AM HAPPY TO INSPIRE IDEA LIKE COUSIN AM SKALD.AM NOT LIKING DIRECTION THIS ARE GOING.Just for giggles, I now want to write up an AM BARBARIAN bloodrager bloodline.AM HAPPY SEE YOU COUSIN.
AM ANNOYED WITH WEIRD MILK POTION THAT BRINGS MALES OF AM SPECIES TO HOME YARD.
AM NOT CLEANING UP AFTER.
BOTH?
I'll be interested to see how this one does in playtests. As I reflect on it more, I'm just not sure the limited spellcasting really will see all that much use in the end to warrant taking this class as anything other than a RP issue, but I very well could be wrong (and hope I am!)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This class looks on its surface to be extremely good, both from a technical and a roleplaying point of view. I hope it survives the playtest without major nerfs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bloodragers can cast their spells in OR out of bloodrage. Jason Bulmahn stated such earlier in the thread. I am sure it is even updated in the OP.Not updated in OP, but yeah, they can cast out of rage.
Even if an Archtype doesn't fix this, I've now got an idea in my head who is setting up shop and I fear won't go away until played.
Thorg is a bloodrager. Thorg does not understand doing fancy magic, just look at his 0 spellcraft, but Thorg makes things happen. When Thorg needs something done, Thorg tells reality what to do, and it usually goes pretty well.
Summoning Mount is not some arcane act for Thorg. Thorg shouts at reality, "Thorg wants a horse now, and reality better not deny Thorg a horse." and a horse appears. Thorg is satisfied. Sometimes, sometimes Thorg is really angry at reality, things get weird then as his arcane bloodline becomes really apparent, and reality just lets Thorg get his way for a bit (bloodrage bloodline powers).
I have to give you the applause for this Lyee, I want to see a player do this now.
Edit: to give credit where credit was due~!
I was surprised how much I friggin' love this class. I figured it would be neat, but I would love to play this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My pre-build impressions
Nothing. It does what it says on the tin, and looks like it functions exactly as I expected. I love it.
Bloodragers can cast their spells in OR out of bloodrage. Jason Bulmahn stated such earlier in the thread. I am sure it is even updated in the OP.Not updated in OP, but yeah, they can cast out of rage.
Even if an Archtype doesn't fix this, I've now got an idea in my head who is setting up shop and I fear won't go away until played.
Thorg is a bloodrager. Thorg does not understand doing fancy magic, just look at his 0 spellcraft, but Thorg makes things happen. When Thorg needs something done, Thorg tells reality what to do, and it usually goes pretty well.
Summoning Mount is not some arcane act for Thorg. Thorg shouts at reality, "Thorg wants a horse now, and reality better not deny Thorg a horse." and a horse appears. Thorg is satisfied. Sometimes, sometimes Thorg is really angry at reality, things get weird then as his arcane bloodline becomes really apparent, and reality just lets Thorg get his way for a bit (bloodrage bloodline powers).
I so want to change the name and try this out. Can I borrow this idea?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
my question on the bloodrager is "how well would a draconic 'bloodline' bloodrager work with the dragon disciple PrC", the two seem made for each other, but since the bloodrager bloodline isn't the sorcerer bloodline, i'm not sure it works, which seems like wasted potential there.
will this be changed or errata'd to allow it? otherwise it'd be kinda disappointing.
I kind of like this class. I'll admit at first I was disappointed. I was kinda hoping for a 2nd tier BAB 2/3 caster like the magus, but with Barbarian+sorcerer instead of Fighter+Wizard. Cast like sorcerer, gain ability to cast through a 2 handed weapon, rage. Maybe some powers that are better if you a lower on health. Hit big instead of hit multiple times like magus.
The more I read the class the more I like it though.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm just lost on this one. Yes, it looks very powerful and combat-effective, if you like that sort of thing.
But... what IS a Bloodrager? What's the underlying concept? How do you roleplay a guy who's a raving, howling, murderous swirl of death in combat...
...who occasionally stops to toss off a few spells?
Seriously. Not getting it. The barbarian is the ultimate in pure physical focus--and he's casting spells in the middle of a fight? What's up with that?
Think... Akuma, except magic instead of ki and a huge sword.
Think... Akuma, except magic instead of ki and a huge sword.I'm just lost on this one. Yes, it looks very powerful and combat-effective, if you like that sort of thing.
But... what IS a Bloodrager? What's the underlying concept? How do you roleplay a guy who's a raving, howling, murderous swirl of death in combat...
...who occasionally stops to toss off a few spells?
Seriously. Not getting it. The barbarian is the ultimate in pure physical focus--and he's casting spells in the middle of a fight? What's up with that?
Check. Who's Akuma? If he wasn't in Lord of the Rings or Doctor Who, I've never heard of him.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In combat, I think that the bloodrager does what it aims to do, and does it well, but not too well.
Out of combat, the spells seem of greater use than within it. I would probably not be wasting rounds of bloodrage too often to be letting off weak spells, but out of it, I would be vanishing, jumping, and the like with foolish abandon to augment the adventuring aspects.
One thing I could suggest to enhance the class, is to allow some of the bloodline powers that aren't specifically about hitting and hurting things to last outside of combat. Examples that come to mind are:
Energy resistances, flight, condition immunities, and the like.
While I am aware that would increase the power a tad, the duration allotted to a raging barbarian is almost guaranteed to extend through the entirety of nearly any of the encounters in the day. I have never seen a combat exceed 15 rounds, nor would I want to.
This would add an element to the bloodrager where there is an actual, progressive transformation, and it would also cut down on bookkeeping for closing the number of abilities that are temporal in nature, as well as more closely mimic the sorcerer bloodlines.
The bloodlines would be of greater potency at earlier levels than sorcerer, but I think the 9th level spellcasting makes such an apology unnecessary.
Adding to the above, I think what inspired me to oppose such a disassociated mechanic, was watching a barbarian character in my game get thematically angry just so she could track by scent...Completely illogical response in character to access a mechanic that shouldn't be rage-dependent.
The nature of rage is such that it inspires fury, and shouldn't be a necessary gatekeeper to accessing utility power, in my opinion.
I wonder if giving the elemental movement 8 levels earlier than the sorcerer is overbalancing in any way.
I see no problem with the bloodrager getting elemental movement 8 levels earlier than a sorcerer. Why? Because the bloodrager only benefits from the elemental movement when his blood courses through his body stronger than normal (bloodraging). While the sorcerer benefits from the elemental movement ALWAYS (unless they are supernatural, in which case they are suppressed in antimagic, if I am remembering right).
There is a rather large trade-off when it comes to the bloodrager gaining abilities sooner than the sorcerer (elemental movement, wings from celestial, etc). While the sorcerer gets them later, he also gets them "permanently"; whereas the bloodrager gets them sooner, but only temporarily.
And about taking damage reduction away from the bloodrager. How would he compensate for being up close and personal? Barbarians get damage reduction, and also a few rage powers that reduce damage or heal. The fighter gets improved AC as he levels. The paladin can heal himself as a free action. What would be the bloodrager's compensation if you remove the damage reduction?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm just lost on this one. Yes, it looks very powerful and combat-effective, if you like that sort of thing.
But... what IS a Bloodrager? What's the underlying concept? How do you roleplay a guy who's a raving, howling, murderous swirl of death in combat...
...who occasionally stops to toss off a few spells?
Seriously. Not getting it. The barbarian is the ultimate in pure physical focus--and he's casting spells in the middle of a fight? What's up with that?
looking at their abilities? i was immediately reminded of celtic mythology and the riastrad (the 'warp spasm', which showed up repeatedly, notably ny cu chulainn), which is a terrifying battle-rage that morphed the user into an embodiment of fear.
as for how to roleplay one? theres several ways:
-bruce banner/the hulk
-a Blood Knight (combat/deathseeker guys who revel in the chaos of the battlefield)
-an honorable warrior whose skill at arms is matched by an inner ferocity few can match (examples might include himura kenshin before his change of heart, and of course, cu chulainn)
-a man chosen by fate as a destroyer of many, who seeks to avoid it by travelling, only to be forced to use his powers to defend himself or others (p much any anime protag ever, busou renkin has some great examples)
|
You can also RP one where the Rage isn't literal OMGICANTTHINKBUTKILL into something that requires 150% of your entire focus, thus limiting your concentration. The Arcane Bloodrager is so focused on bending reality to his demand, that his form becomes inconsistent (Blur), and his movements unnaturally fast (Haste). His determination blots out most other tasks at hand, but he still has the clarity of mind to be able to bend reality in other ways, flinging Magic Missiles, doubling his own size, or even launching fireballs.