I like how soooo many people are not complying with the OP and posting builds that work (like I did) and just putting up anecdotes and 'rogues are x' opinions (which the op specifically asked us NOT to do)
This is a thread for kick ass rogue builds people, if you can't contribute one, please remain silent.
Waits for the haters...
Just reiterating this.
It doesn't make a difference whether or not you think the rogue is fine. The point is to drag up the numbers and build to prove or improve as well as the instructions on using them effectively. Anecdotes don't help without good context to back it up.
I've just about got the first catfolk I wanted to do done. I'll move on to a primarily non-damage (but not non-combat) build after that. I think the class can do a fair amount of debuffing wiht the right selection of feats adn abilities and I've seen inklings of that in the various builds posted already.
Build #3
The Ranged Enforcer:
Human Rogue (Sniper) level 12
Str:10
Dex:26 (+2 race, +3 levels, +4 belt)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
1:Point Blank Shot, Bludgeoner
2:Weapon Training (Focus: Shortbow)
3:Precise Shot
4:Combat Trick (Rapid Shot)
5:Dazzling Display
6:Sniper's Eye
7:Sap Adept
8:Ninja Trick (Darkvision)
9:Shatter Defenses
10:Feat Talent (Manyshot)
11:Sap Master
12:Crippling Strike*
Gear:
Headband of Ninjitsu
Belt of Dexterity +4
Shortbow +3
Sniper Goggless
Circlet of Persuasion
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
LOTS of blunt arrows (or a merciful bow)
Combat:
DEFENSES:
HP: 93
AC: 25
Fort:+9 Ref:+19 Will:+8
OFFENSE:
BAB: +9/+4
Full Attack w/ Shortbow: +20/+20/+15
Breakdown: +9 BAB, +8 Dex, +3 bow, +1 focus, +1 point blank, -2 Rapid Shot, (on SA, +2 for headband)
Full Round of Combat all non-lethal:
1) Manyshot attack +20 1d6+4/1d6+4
2) Activate Enforcer: Intimidate +18 (12 ranks, 3 trained, 3 circlet)
3) Rapid Shot: +20 1d6+4 - shatters defenses
4) Third Shot: +17 1d6+4+12d6+48 (98 avg.)
Breakdown of SA: 6d6 base, 6d6 sap master, +24 sap adept, +24 sniper goggles
In subsequent rounds, if a target is already shattered:
Full Attack: +22/+22/+17
Total damage if all hit: 4d6+16+36d6+144 (average: 300 exactly)
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Once again that has nothing to do with being a rogue. It is based on one race having an advantage based on the setting. You can replace rogue with inquisitor or bard, two other 3/4 BAB classes and get similar results.
It's not JUST the race; it's the synergy with the class.
Factoring size and attribute bonus, a halfling is relatively +5 to Stealth-versus-Perception out-of-box versus most other core races. Put him in a class where Stealth is a class feature, and his opponent in a class where Perception is not a class feature, then the Stealth-versus-Perception disparity increases to +8 (assuming both put a point into it). If the halfling is inclined (likely) to maximize his dexterity while his opponent is not inclined (again likely) to maximize his wisdom, Stealth-versus-Perception disparity increases to +11 or higher. You tell me how this is not awesome in a class with a primary feature actually including the word "sneak" in it.
So take the halfling out of the equation (to make you happy): +11-5 = +6, which is still a fantastic advantage in this d20 game. Still lots of races which excel at rogue. E.g., the iconic elf with a dexterity bonus, low-light vision, useful weapon proficiencies and resistance to some mental effects. Or the gnome, also with the size bonus to Stealth, and shooed in for Bewildering Koan.
But now let's make that rogue a strength-focused human with dumped INT and mediocre DEX (such builds featuring prominently among the terrible "let's fix the rogue!" DPR-maximizing advice I see on these forums); and Stealth-versus-Perception disparity drops to only +3, or ever lower; and the character is only generating half the skill-points per level as the halfling. Dump his charisma to 7 as well, and his opposed screw-with-you skills are running a good -5, -6 or worse versus a halfling or gnome build -- likely worse due to lack of skill points to devote to a wide spread, with the disparity steadily worsening with level.
Now if you can show what being a rogue had to do with it, then I will retract my statement.
Knock-out Blow followed by coup de grace next round? Yikes.
Build #4
The Big Game Hunter
Human Rogue level 11, Shadow Dancer 1 (at level 8)
Str:10
Dex:26 (+2 race, +3 levels, +4 belt)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
1:Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2:Firearm Training
3:Dodge
4:Grit (Amateur Gunslinger (Quick Clear), Extra Grit)
5:Combat Reflexes
6:Sniper's Eye
7:Mobility
8:Shadow Dancer PrC: Hide in Plain Sight
9:Fast Stealth, Skill Focus Stealth
10: -
11:Stealthy Sniper, Vital Strike
12: -
Gear:
Belt of Dexterity +4
+2 Impact Musket
Sniper Goggles
+2 Shadow Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Whatever else you want...
DEFENSES:
HP: 93
AC: 25
Fort:+8 Ref:+19 Will:+7
OFFENSE:
BAB: +8/+4
Grit: 3
Sniping:
Stealth Check +24 (12 ranks, 3 trained, 5 armor, 6 feat, 8 dex -10 sniping)
Vital Strike Snipe Shot: +19 (+8 bab, +2 weapon, +8 dex, +1 PBS)
Damage: 12d6+14
Once again that has nothing to do with being a rogue. It is based on one race having an advantage based on the setting. You can replace rogue with inquisitor or bard, two other 3/4 BAB classes and get similar results.It's not JUST the race; it's the synergy with the class.
Factoring size and attribute bonus, a halfling is relatively +5 to Stealth-versus-Perception out-of-box versus most other core races. Put him in a class where Stealth is a class feature, and his opponent in a class where Perception is not a class feature, then the Stealth-versus-Perception disparity increases to +8 (assuming both put a point into it). If the halfling is inclined (likely) to maximize his dexterity while his opponent is not inclined (again likely) to maximize his wisdom, Stealth-versus-Perception disparity increases to +11 or higher. You tell me how this is not awesome in a class with a primary feature actually including the word "sneak" in it.
So take the halfling out of the equation (to make you happy): +11-5 = +6, which is still a fantastic advantage in this d20 game. Still lots of races which excel at rogue. E.g., the iconic elf with a dexterity bonus, low-light vision, useful weapon proficiencies and resistance to some mental effects. Or the gnome, also with the size bonus to Stealth, and shooed in for Bewildering Koan.
But now let's make that rogue a strength-focused human with dumped INT and mediocre DEX (such builds featuring prominently among the terrible "let's fix the rogue!" DPR-maximizing advice I see on these forums); and Stealth-versus-Perception disparity drops to only +3, or ever lower; and the character is only generating half the skill-points per level as the halfling. Dump his charisma to 7 as well, and his opposed screw-with-you skills are running a good -5, -6 or worse versus a halfling or gnome build -- likely worse due to lack of skill points to devote to a wide spread, with the disparity steadily worsening with level.
Now...
Not good enough. I can take an archaologist bard and do the same thing since they get rogue talents.
So once again tell me how the rogue is special in this situation. All you did was cherry pick the situation to benefit the halfing/half-elf race, not the rogue class.
Basically you said a halfing/half-elf with a 3/4 BAB focused on stealth can handle a full BAB class with a poor perception and/or no low light vision in the correct enviroment.
I will put this another way. Tell me why another class could not defeat the fighter in this situation.
You have to show how the defeat was rogue specific.
And in addition to what wraithstrike sais - knock-out blow is just a really, really weak talent. Seriously, once per day and fort-save?
I somehow feel like you are not comparing mechanics, Sir T, but your experiences with players who are just playing the game in a way they are having fun, that however is not representativ and does not really include the facts of the mechanics pathfinder brings with.
Tell me, if Ranger, Bard, Rogue and Alchemist would be named "rogue", would you pick the one with no magic, no good BAB and actually nothing but some SA-dices?
The popularity of the rogue comes with the name and the images of rogues in peoples heads - its by far not because of the mechanics why people like playing rogues.
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I just provided an example of how a rogue without a penny to his name could kill a tank fighter and not take a scratch.
Granted, it's situational; but it's a situation the rogue controls. In the right environment, he's the boss.
Unfortunately that environment exists only in your mind.
The rogue has no accuracy advantage. The availability of concealment and cover hurts the rogue at least as much as the fighter.
You need to go back and re-read the example I set for you.
There's a halfling rogue facing off a human fighter in a dimly-lit maze.
-- The human fighter (without low-light vision) is going to *die* because he cannot see the person who is killing him, because that person will continually evade into the gloom after each snipe. The fighter is never within visual range at the beginning of his turn. His opposed stealth score versus the rogue's perception is pathetic. The rogue's opposed stealth score versus the fighter's perception is superb.
In this particular case, the fighter's only real option, if alone, is to run away as fast as he can.
Any competent fighter can exchange readied action attacks for your spring attacks or thrown weapons until you do something stupid like try to stay in one place and full attack with thrown knives. Then he walks over to you and trips your sorry 3/4 BAB arse and doesn't even need the feats because your CMD is that much worse than his CMB. Then he full attac--Typical fighter-think. Always bringing a melee weapon to a ranged assassination party, and then desperately hoping the opponent will "do something stupid".
Actually in your example the halfling would die because both would have concealment from neither having low light vision. The rogue would be more impacted by this, meaning the fighter will eventually catch up and kill him while the rogue does 1d3+0 with his sling.
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Build #5
The Table-Leg Bruiser
(Side note, I keep using humans, not because they are better, but because they are easy to translate into other races for builds. Obviously a half-elf or a halfling is a better sniper etc, and personally I think dwarves make the best rogues, because they can actually get decent saves. End side note)
This build is only effective against humanoids wielding weapons
Human Flowing Monk of the Empty Hand level 2, Rogue 10
Str:12 (+2 belt)
Dex:23 (+2 race, +3 levels, +2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:13
Wis:12
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
Empty Hand: All normal weapons are treated as Improvised Weapons.
1:Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
2:-
3:Improved Disarm
4:Finesse Rogue
5:Catch Off-Guard
6:Weapon Training (Focus: Light Hammer)
7:Break Guard
8:Offensive Defense
9:Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10:Deft Palm
11:Greater Disarm
12: Weapon Snatcher
Gear:
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
2x +2 Light Hammers
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Gloves of Larceny
Duelist's Vambraces
Whatever else you want...
DEFENSES:
HP: 93
AC: 23
Fort:+11 Ref:+19 Will:+10
OFFENSE:
BAB: +8/+4
Weapon Snatch, Disarm: +30 (12 rank, 3 trained, 6 dex, 5 gloves, 4 feats)
Full Attack: +14/+14/+11/+9
Tactics:
(1) Disarm your opponent (sacrifice first attack) +30
(2) Opponent is no longer armed, Catch Off-Guard = flat footed.
(3) Activate Break Guard as a swift action to attack +16 1d4+5d6+3
(4) finish attacking: +16/+13/+11 for 1d4+5d6+3 on each hit.
In later levels, or in lieu of TWF feats, you can grab the Sap Master line of feats. In fact, you can effectively disarm/intimidate in the same round and get sneak attacks without breaking stride or losing any attacks. You still have flurry, so if you want to go armorless, you can also still get an extra attack (+7/+7/+2)
It's not JUST the race; it's the synergy with the class.You have a -20 penalty to stealth when sniping
-9 is < + whatever for the fighter.
Halfling Trait Swift as Shadows makes that a -10
Rogue talent Stealthy Sniper makes that a -0Good luck finding a halfling sniper.
Pick up a level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight, and this is really obnoxious. Stealth is actually harder to get past than invisibility. Give the halfling some sniper goggles and he can sneak attack from any range. Take a headband of Ninjitsu and they can sneak attack you even if you have concealment or total concealment.
Seriously, if you want to annoy a PC group to death, ambush them in some dark woods with a few Halfling Sling snipers
Goblin Rogue 9/ Oracle (Waves) 1
(25pt)
Str:10
Dex:28 (+4belt + 2 lv)
Con:10
Int:11
Wis:16 (+2 hb)
Cha:8
Inic: + 11(dex,trait) CA:24(dex, size,ice armor)
Feats/Talents:
1:Point Blank Shot,
2:Ki pool
3:Rapid Shot
4:minor magic
5:weapon focus (shuiriken)
6:Sniper's Eye
7:extra talente: ninja trick: flurry of stars
8:major magic (obscure mist)
9: revelation: Water Sight (oracle). Extra revelation:ice armor
10: -
Bab+6/+1, +9Dex +1Size +1Haste(boots) +1WF +1PB +1shuriken MW -2 Rapid Shot - 2 Flurry of Stars
+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11
Obscure mist centered on the goblin for SA all turns and 20-50% miss chance on him.
Equip: belt 16k, headband 4k, boots 12k, 30k for supplies
You need more Cha to make that work.
You need more Cha to make that work.
why?
You need more Cha to make that work.why?
Uuuuh, you dont, sorry. But why dont you just use the obscuring mist spell from your oracle level? That would spare 2 feats or am I missing something?
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Here is an 11 level rogue that actually qualifies. Only 1 level of a non rogue class.
rogue rogue
Dwarf Ranger (Guide) 1/Rogue 10
NG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +21
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Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +1 Dex, +2 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 77 (1d10+10d8+22)
Fort +12, Ref +13 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +11; +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities
Defensive Abilities defensive training, evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +2 keen scimitar +17/+12 (1d6+11/15-20)
Special Attacks hatred, ranger's focus, sneak attack +5d6
Ranger (Guide) Spells Prepared (CL 0; concentration +2):
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +14; CMD 27 (27 vs. bull rush, 27 vs. trip)
Feats Furious Focus, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Steel Soul, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+10 jump), Appraise +1 (+3 to determine the price of nonmagic items with precious metals or gemstones), Bluff +14, Climb +10, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +21, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Heal +6, Perception +21 (+26 to locate traps, +23 to notice unusual stonework, such as traps and hidden doors in stone walls or floors), Ride +0, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +15, Stealth +19, Survival +6 (+7 to track), Swim +9, Use Magic Device +14
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant
SQ greed, hardy, rogue talents (bleeding attack +5, coax information, combat trick, crippling strike, offensive defense), slow and steady, stability, stonecunning, track, trapfinding +5, wild empathy
Other Gear +3 Shadow Mithral Agile breastplate, +2 Keen Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Eyes of the eagle, Ring of protection +2, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 2935 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
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Bleeding Attack +5 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 5 bleed damage/round.
Coax information (Ex) Can use Bluff or Diplomacy to force an opponent to act friendly.
Crippling Strike (Ex) Your sneak attacks do 2 points of Strength damage.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Poison/+4 Spells or Spell-like Effects Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ranger's Focus +2 (1/day) (Ex) +2 to hit and damage focused target.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Stability +4 Gain bonus to CMD vs bull rush/trip while standing on ground.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wild Empathy +1 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
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This is a strength focused rogue.
stealth = 19
perception 21
DPR= 19.79
DPR with PA and Furious Focus 27.2
DPR with sneak attack and flanking + furious focus 52.86
All of the above + ranger's focus which is only availible once per day 65.85
Fort 12 Reflex 13 Will 11<---Before the dwarf bonuses or Steel Soul comes into play.
A CR 11 monster forces a save of 20 on average, and most will saves will be spells or SLA. That means a 75% chance of success. The fort save is even higher, which is a good thing.
I still have close to 3000 gp left over. That might go towards a circlet of persuasion so my diplomacy, bluff, and UMD checks get boost.
My AC is not that good, but I do have offensive defensive. I also have crippling strike which further decreases my chances of getting hit. With the right wand I should be able to give myself a mischance. Even a low level wand of mirror image would be nice once I save the money to get one.
It's not JUST the race; it's the synergy with the class.You have a -20 penalty to stealth when sniping
-9 is < + whatever for the fighter.
Halfling Trait Swift as Shadows makes that a -10
Rogue talent Stealthy Sniper makes that a -0
Good luck finding a halfling sniper.Pick up a level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight, and this is really obnoxious. Stealth is actually harder to get past than invisibility. Give the halfling some sniper goggles and he can sneak attack from any range. Take a headband of Ninjitsu and they can sneak attack you even if you have concealment or total concealment.
Seriously, if you want to annoy a PC group to death, ambush them in some dark woods with a few Halfling Sling snipers
See this is the type of writing that is needed instead of assuming the fighter fails a 1/day fort save or doing something that can be done by a bard or inquisitor. :)
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See this is the type of writing that is needed instead of assuming the fighter fails a 1/day fort save or doing something that can be done by a bard or inquisitor. :)It's not JUST the race; it's the synergy with the class.You have a -20 penalty to stealth when sniping
-9 is < + whatever for the fighter.
Halfling Trait Swift as Shadows makes that a -10
Rogue talent Stealthy Sniper makes that a -0
Good luck finding a halfling sniper.Pick up a level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight, and this is really obnoxious. Stealth is actually harder to get past than invisibility. Give the halfling some sniper goggles and he can sneak attack from any range. Take a headband of Ninjitsu and they can sneak attack you even if you have concealment or total concealment.
Seriously, if you want to annoy a PC group to death, ambush them in some dark woods with a few Halfling Sling snipers
To be fair, an archaeologist bard can do this also. If he casts ventriloquism it's even sillier.
I'm rather surprised no one's suggested a tiefling rogue with Fiend Sight. Get a consistent source of deeper darkness and sneak attack away.
Similar tricks are normal darkvision and normal or magical darkness versus an opponent without it; a Fetchling with Dark Sight and deeper darkness; obscuring mist and the Goz Mask; and the previously mentioned obscuring mist and Waves Oracle. It isn't the sanest tactic, but the Headband of Ninjitsu would let you ignore all those fancy "I can see in the dark" tricks and just blindly shank enemies.
Admittedly, a vivisectionist alchemist can pull off every one of those.
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So... I tried to make a Rogue duelist.
Sadly, dueling is a terrible combat style in PF and Rogues are not known for their amazing effectiveness either, so don't be too harsh on her, okay?
Half-Elf Rogue 10
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 shield, +5 Dex)
hp 88 (10d8+40)
Fort +12, Ref +15 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +13; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense; Immune magic sleep; charm and compulsion spells (as Protection From Evil) Resist elven immunities
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 rapier +15/+10 (1d6+4/18-20) and
. . +1 silversheen cestus +14/+9 (1d4+4/19-20) and
. . +2 silversheen rapier +16/+11 (1d6+5/18-20)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite shortbow +14/+9 (1d6+4/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Combat Reflexes, Defensive Combat Training, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lunge, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits indomitable faith, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +13, Disable Device +23, Intimidate +13, Perception +17 (+22 to locate traps), Sense Motive +15, Stealth +18, Survival +2 (+4 to avoid becoming lost), Use Magic Device +13; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ elf blood, rogue talents (combat trick, finesse rogue, offensive defense, slippery mind, weapon training), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear Wand of Acid Splash, Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Mithral Buckler, +1 Adaptive Composite shortbow (Str +3), +1 Rapier, +1 Silversheen Cestus, +2 Silversheen Rapier, Belt of physical perfection +2, Cloak of resistance +3, Feather step slippers, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun torch, Traveler's any-tool, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Masterwork tool (Disable Device), Masterwork tool (Stealth), 400 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Ioun torch This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit, and allows the bearer to carry light and still have his hands free.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Slippery Mind (Ex) If you fail a save vs an Enchantment spell/effect, can re-save next rd.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Traveler's any-tool Acts as masterwork tools for most Craft or Profession skills.
Wand of Acid Splash Add this item to create a wand of a chosen spell.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone.
It's amazing how many resources I had to spend just so Roxy could have mediocre AC/CMD and decent/good saves... And her accuracy is still bleh. :(
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Note if anyone will tell me how to make spoilers or do so in a quote I'd appreciate it...
At the bottom of the page click on "How to format your text".
It will give you the BB code for spoilers and other things.Here is an example for now
(spoiler=rogue) whatever you want to type (/spoiler)
When you really do the text replace the () with [].
I think the Rogue is fine, for what I want the Rogue to do.
I think the main problems with the rogue stem from the varied and disparate expectations of the class, some say its utility, some say its DPS (which in MMO's is really all it is)
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Build #5
The Table-Leg Bruiser
(Side note, I keep using humans, not because they are better, but because they are easy to translate into other races for builds. Obviously a half-elf or a halfling is a better sniper etc, and personally I think dwarves make the best rogues, because they can actually get decent saves. End side note)This build is only effective against humanoids wielding weapons
Human Flowing Monk of the Empty Hand level 2, Rogue 10
Str:12 (+2 belt)
Dex:23 (+2 race, +3 levels, +2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:13
Wis:12
Cha:10Feats/Talents:
Empty Hand: All normal weapons are treated as Improvised Weapons.1:Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
2:-
3:Improved Disarm
4:Finesse Rogue
5:Catch Off-Guard
6:Weapon Training (Focus: Light Hammer)
7:Break Guard
8:Offensive Defense
9:Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10:Deft Palm
11:Greater Disarm
12: Weapon SnatcherGear:
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
2x +2 Light Hammers
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Gloves of Larceny
Duelist's Vambraces
Whatever else you want...DEFENSES:
HP: 93
AC: 23
Fort:+11 Ref:+19 Will:+10OFFENSE:
BAB: +8/+4
Weapon Snatch, Disarm: +30 (12 rank, 3 trained, 6 dex, 5 gloves, 4 feats)Full Attack: +14/+14/+11/+9
Tactics:
(1) Disarm your opponent (sacrifice first attack) +30
(2) Opponent is no longer armed, Catch Off-Guard = flat footed.
(3) Activate Break Guard as a swift action to attack +16 1d4+5d6+3
(4) finish attacking: +16/+13/+11 for 1d4+5d6+3 on each hit.In later levels, or in lieu of TWF feats, you can grab the Sap Master line of feats. In fact, you can effectively disarm/intimidate in the same round and get sneak attacks without breaking stride or losing any attacks. You still have flurry, so if you want to go armorless, you can also still get an extra attack (+7/+7/+2)
hellooo jackie chan build.
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Not good enough. I can take an archaologist bard and do the same thing since they get rogue talents.I get the impression that nothing will be good enough for your moving-goalpost fallacy.
i think he means more that in an even situation (both are halflings) the rogue wouldn't have this advantage you keep talking about, or that ANYONE with a sling and decent stealth can pull this exact strategy off, regardless of class.
you build your argument on a corner case without any bearing on class, and when this is pointed out, we're "moving the goalposts".
for example, take that halfling rogue and replace him with a halfling inquisitor--he can use the exact same tactics, AND have a higher to-hit or damage from judgments. even a monk could do this, and it's in the same lack-of-attack-bonus pit with the rogue.
what you've listed isnt a situation where the rogue shines for being a rogue, its a situation where a halfling trumps a human thanks to the environment.
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Not good enough. I can take an archaologist bard and do the same thing since they get rogue talents.I get the impression that nothing will be good enough for your moving-goalpost fallacy.
Let me make this clear. Make the situation so that being a rogue is the primary reason, not being a halfing/half-elf/etc against human(other creature with sight disadvantage) in favorable conditions that I could duplicate with a bard or inquisitor or _____.
Not good enough. I can take an archaologist bard and do the same thing since they get rogue talents.I get the impression that nothing will be good enough for your moving-goalpost fallacy.i think he means more that in an even situation (both are halflings) the rogue wouldn't have this advantage you keep talking about, or that ANYONE with a sling and decent stealth can pull this exact strategy off, regardless of class.
you build your argument on a corner case without any bearing on class, and when this is pointed out, we're "moving the goalposts".
for example, take that halfling rogue and replace him with a halfling inquisitor--he can use the exact same tactics, AND have a higher to-hit or damage from judgments. even a monk could do this, and it's in the same lack-of-attack-bonus pit with the rogue.
what you've listed isnt a situation where the rogue shines for being a rogue, its a situation where a halfling trumps a human thanks to the environment.
Thanks..This is basically what I have been saying.
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Guys, I'm working my ass off over here. How much harder do you want me to work?
<cracks whip>
Stop complaining and get back to work..| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks..This is basically what I have been saying.Not good enough. I can take an archaologist bard and do the same thing since they get rogue talents.I get the impression that nothing will be good enough for your moving-goalpost fallacy.i think he means more that in an even situation (both are halflings) the rogue wouldn't have this advantage you keep talking about, or that ANYONE with a sling and decent stealth can pull this exact strategy off, regardless of class.
you build your argument on a corner case without any bearing on class, and when this is pointed out, we're "moving the goalposts".
for example, take that halfling rogue and replace him with a halfling inquisitor--he can use the exact same tactics, AND have a higher to-hit or damage from judgments. even a monk could do this, and it's in the same lack-of-attack-bonus pit with the rogue.
what you've listed isnt a situation where the rogue shines for being a rogue, its a situation where a halfling trumps a human thanks to the environment.
Throwing up an actual build instead of coming up with a random arbitrary situation might help too.
I like the Rusty and Co. reference, Lemmy, but isn't Roxy a Bard in that?
(Heh, see what I did there?)
()
Rouge Roguey Rogue-like the Third (15 pt buy)
DROW; favored class: +1/2 to Bluff for feint and secret messages
STR 12
DEX 17
CON 8
INT 10
WIS 11
CHA 16
SKILLS
Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device
FEATS
1st: Stealthy
3rd: Spider Steps
5th: Drow Nobility
7th: Improved Drow Nobility
9th: Greater Drow Nobility
11th: Noble Spell Resistance
13th: Umbral Scion
15th: Improved Umbral Scion
TALENTS
2nd: Minor Magic (Penumbra)
4th: Fast Stealth
6th: Lasting Poison
8th: Sniper's Eye
10th: Another Day
12th: Defensive Roll
14th: Deadly Cocktail
16th: Deadly Sneak
You end up with a decent ranged sneak-attacker who excels in darkness, subterfuge, poison (via race) and has access to reasonably useful spell-likes that aid in most situations. It certainly "feels" like a rogue to me. EDIT 3/4: Also, from what I can tell of a super-brief once- twice-over of the rules (warning: my reading comprehension sucks tonight, so beware the probable-mistake here), he should be able to feint his way to sneak attacks while maintaining a lack of melee, even if he's not stealthy. Which he will be. Especially with his darkvision range (which is a drow thing instead of a rogue thing, I admit).
EDIT 4: actually, upon re-reading, feinting is a melee-specific thing, unfortunately. So nevermind that one, then, probably switch out the favored class thing for another skill point and put it into diplomacy or intimidate or one of the movement skills.
Your hit points and fortitude will suck, though. Like, they'll actively suck fortitude-focused effects toward your character.
Besides having access to magic, going through the Nobility line gets you ways to shore up your skills (levitate being great for movement, suggestion for diplomacy, and so on) and grants you improved Spell Resistance - not the best thing (as noted in many a monk thread), but certainly useful against Fortitude spells and since you already have it, it seems (to me) like you might as well have it.
Skills and hit points can be alleviated by making it a 20 point buy and increasing CON and INT by a few points each.
The minor magic aids in keeping your main weakness (light blindness) negated. I'd rather get a custom-made constant-penumbra item, but, even though that's only 1,000 gold, it's not able to be guaranteed access.
Other than that, the typical array of equipment was mentioned by others - nab some cheap alchemical or magical items to allow you to stealth under circumstances.
The rogue is not a powerhouse, and likely could be imitated by others (most notably the ninja, though since that also gets poison-use, that's one less useful class ability). It's just making a build that looks neat to me (and doing so quickly) so I'm not ignoring your OP request!
EDIT 3: I'm probably making a mistake somewhere. It was a really quick build. Feel free to let me know where I'm wrong.
Now, if only the GM would give me the Young template, I'd be pretty daggum set for an amazing scout...
EDIT: linking Roxy
EDIT 2: You know, I just realized, it probably wasn't a reference. Roxy is not only a Bard, but an Elf (I'd missed the "half" in Lemmy's build) so... whoops. OH WELL, IT STANDS.
Heh... While I do read and enjoy the Rusty and Co. comics, it really wasn't a reference (Well, not a conscious one, at least). I just thought of the name for some reason... Maybe I subconsciously thought of Roxy The Bard.
>.<
Heh... While I do read and enjoy the Rusty and Co. comics, it really wasn't a reference (Well, not a conscious one, at least). I just thought of the name for some reason... Maybe I subconsciously thought of Roxy The Bard.
>.<
Yeah, it's not a real reference, just - at most - a minor subconscious association of a few things.
When I saw, "elf", and "swashbuckler" with "Roxy" (nevermind the "half" in front of elf or rogue instead of bard) my mind immediately went to Rusty, thus my comment. Whoops.
Thugsalot: your first post was funny (treating a Rogue like a Fighter), but since then you've only added anecdotal data which is kind of against the point of the thread. Please post some builds, good or bad, and I think a lot of your opposition will cease (though if they're bad builds, I'd expect critique).
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Guys, I'm working my ass off over here. How much harder do you want me to work?
I don't see sweat! How many human fighters have you killed alone in the dark with but a sling and a prayer! You sicken me! Now give me 40 squat thrusts!
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Oh, it's Mike. That explains everything.
Maybe I was gone for too long or I was lucky enough to avoid certain post when I was more active before? Who is Mike Schneider?
In any case I'm ignoring the nonsense because the nonsense is unproductive. Anyway Ima update my pbp's and comeback to consolidate more builds. I may sit down and do some statistics real fast.
Something of interest might be characters seeing actual play in actual games as well. If you do post those please post what the rest of your party looks like and any house rules that may affect your performance.
Are you considering a ninja to be fully roguish? I know people have differing opinions on whether an alternate class is a member of the original class or not. If ninja are kosher, I'll post a level 12 build later on.
You can do this simply because I can't stop you. Just keep in mind that it will just be used as a baseline for comparison rather than anything meaningfully helpful to current or future potential rogue players.