So while Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak are lackluster statistically, in practice it brings that floor from 7 to 19, thus aiding our worst case scenario.
Worst case is that you miss, which is more likely with the -2 attack you get for using those feats. It's a lot less bad for a touch attack build than it is for a regular rogue, admittedly. Against big clumsy enemies, you might be hitting them on a 2 either way.
By the way, my build uses 1 level of fighter mostly for the bonus feats. Its also possible to add skill focus (intimidate) somewhere to get even better chances of landing those sneak attacks.
What I like the most is that I can mantain both high offense with SA and defense with the offensive defense talent, as well as having good ranks in skills to be effective out of combat too. Against stuff immune to nonlethal, you can always trade it to lethal damage doing the same SA damage as a normal rogue, because youre using unarmed strikes.
What about a moms dip for the touch build?
You can't really ever get a full-attack from stealth that gives you sneak attack on all attacks.
The rules for stealth say that it breaks as soon as you make [b]an[/i] attack, singular. So SA would only apply to the first attack.
You could keep a target flat-footed during a surprise round, but then you only get a standard action, so no Full-Attack.
So the only way to get a full-attack from stealth that gives you sneak attack on every hit is to surprise the target so that you can get next to them, and then out-roll them on initiative, since they are flat-footed until they act, but this is not really attached to stealth and doesn't help you in an ongoing combat.
Stealth is not a great pairing with melee. Though it is the only decent application of Spring attack. Scout + HiPS (via shadowdancer) + Spring Attack, can make this work, but that is still just 1 attack per round, and with scout, your stealth is really just a defense (albeit a good one)
So while Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak are lackluster statistically, in practice it brings that floor from 7 to 19, thus aiding our worst case scenario.Worst case is that you miss, which is more likely with the -2 attack you get for using those feats. It's a lot less bad for a touch attack build than it is for a regular rogue, admittedly. Against big clumsy enemies, you might be hitting them on a 2 either way.Yep.
The damned Wizard can hit touch attacks for crying out loud, I'm sure we can take the penalty.
What would increase our hit? I wouldn't bother with it at all normally. Just Dex and BAB are enough, but I figure it is worth it to make up for the -2 for the Talents.
Weapon Focus? Amulet of Mighty Fists? Brawling enchant?
The Dev team seems pretty insistent on making sure Monks don't get nice things, so anything dealing with Unarmed or "Armed Unarmed" seems stuck in the same limbo as the Monks are.
I wouldnt quite agree with the part that unarmed isnt a good option. Sap Adept and Sap Master made classes like rogue get an insane DPR with this combat style, as can be seen in my build.
Deliquescent Gloves. 8k.
Boom. Infinite touch attacks. No SR. No saves. No casting.
Only acid damage. Kind of a bummer. Could probably convince your GM to make different kinds, but I think they would be hard pressed to let you elemental sneak attack willy nilly.
I dont think those gloves give you infinite touch attacks. What they do is add 1d6 acid damage to the touch spells that you use, as well as granting corrosive enhancement to your weapons.
I dunno why everyone whines about the rogue, Id play one any given day of the week as long as the other roles in the party are comfortably and competently covered...
I think Bigdaddjug may be referring to the fact rangers get more love concerning things that help them Stealth. For example...See this? This is an answer that actually answers the question. Thank you.
You're very welcome TarkXT. ^_^
Miss chances mess up everyone. It just messes up rogues more than others. And yes while it's easy to screw a rogue not many are going to do it specifically because of them. And doesn't the heartseeker weapon enhancement negate concealment on most foes? That's a thought.
Concealment is a good defense against everyone. It's just that if my Ranger is facing a foe with concealment, he just has to deal with the miss chance. All his damage doesn't suddenly vanish even on a successful hit. :P
The heartseeking thing might work, but I kind of have this pet peeve against a class that must have a particular item to be functional. Paladins don't need a holy avenger for example, though they might want one because it's really good for their class.
And when you get into needing specific weapon enhancements you're effectively giving up other enhancements to get those enhancements, and you have to either beg, buy, borrow, craft, discover, or steal them. I've lamented the woes of specializing in a certain type of weapon above all others when discussing fighters. Specializing in a certain type of weapon enhancement seems even worse in my mind. :P
As for feral combat training I pointed it out because it allowed me to apply the aforementioned buffs like align weapon to my claws.
Oh I see. That makes sense. Good deal.
Ultimately though I would not look at it like a cahrge build. That's jsut a method of continuing to dole out the pain. In a flank we can mix in unarmed strikes with claw attacks to get more sneak attacks in with a similiar attack bonus and damage to some twf builds. Same can be done to blinded opponents or while invisible. I think the trick right now is making this build function more consistently at lower levels before getting to this point.
Aren't you only getting 2 attacks per round though? To a maximum of 3 attacks? It keeps seeming - in my head - like a martial that's using a BAB of +15/+15 instead of +20/+15/+10/+5. >_>
I guess I'm just a worry-wart. :P
I do think fleshing out how the build would function through multiple levels would be a good idea. You might be able to use the retraining rules to give you a hand in that department.
In any case this is just a starting build to lay the groundwork for more refinement. I do want to go back and work it into a more strength based build possibly dipping a level or three of monk.
Right now I'm focusing on a carnivalist with three familiars.
That sounds highly amusing. :P
I dunno why everyone whines about the rogue, Id play one any given day of the week as long as the other roles in the party are comfortably and competently covered...
I totally agree with this. Rogues are by far my favorite class in the game.
Just another idea I had. The surprise round rogue. The plan would be to either deal such severe damage in the surprise round that you take out a single or maybe even multiple targets out of the fight immediately. Then after having spent your energy on insta kills you skulk around and flank.
a) Find an ability which allows you to take a full round action in the surprise round (Bandit or Lookout feat paired with a diviner or Bodyguard animal companion).
b) Find ways to take a full attack in the surprise round (shuriken daggers, bow...) and take lots of attacks (haste, ki, flurry of stars, Rapid Shot and TWF as they stack)...nd make sure opponents are flat footed with the surprise Attack Rogue talent.
c)Find ways to make your sneak attack hurt real bad. Knife Master, Goblin Rogue Favored Class bonus (+1 SA damage in surprise round), Knife Master, Sap line of feats?
A knifemaster Goblin Rogue at level 10 deals somewhere around 1d3+5d8+12 (average of 35) damage on a single sneak attack and could take up to 5 attacks in the surprise round.
Just another idea I had. The surprise round rogue. The plan would be to either deal such severe damage in the surprise round that you take out a single or maybe even multiple targets out of the fight immediately. Then after having spent your energy on insta kills you skulk around and flank.
a) Find an ability which allows you to take a full round action in the surprise round (Bandit or Lookout feat paired with a diviner or Bodyguard animal companion).
b) Find ways to take a full attack in the surprise round (shuriken daggers, bow...) and take lots of attacks (haste, ki, flurry of stars, Rapid Shot and TWF as they stack)...nd make sure opponents are flat footed with the surprise Attack Rogue talent.
c)Find ways to make your sneak attack hurt real bad. Knife Master, Goblin Rogue Favored Class bonus (+1 SA damage in surprise round), Knife Master, Sap line of feats?
A knifemaster Goblin Rogue at level 10 deals somewhere around 1d3+5d8+12 (average of 35) damage on a single sneak attack and could take up to 5 attacks in the surprise round.
Also take a look in the underhanded rogue talent:
"Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0)."This could increase your damage really fast on surprise rounds, the only limit being the few uses per day of the ability.
Also take a look in the underhanded rogue talent:
"Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0)."This could increase your damage really fast on surprise rounds, the only limit being the few uses per day of the ability.
Didn't mention underhanded as it's a trap. The problem is the following wording "if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about"
This part won't work with quickdraw. Quickdraw requires you to take a move action to draw a concealed weapon so that means no full attack.
Also take a look in the underhanded rogue talent:
"Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0)."This could increase your damage really fast on surprise rounds, the only limit being the few uses per day of the ability.
Didn't mention underhanded as it's a trap. The problem is the following wording "if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn't know about"
This part won't work with quickdraw. Quickdraw requires you to take a move action to draw a concealed weapon so that means no full attack.
Ah, didnt noticed that. Gotta be careful with those trap talents, just like powerful sneak (with exception maybe for the touch ac build). Still, its possible to make that surprise round build effectively even withouth this.
Yeah Shuriken and Ninja might be the best call. So let's take a level 10 Goblin Ninja.
With a STR of 10 he deals 1+5d6+10 (average of 28.5) damage with a shuriken in the surprise attack.
Using TWF, Rapid Shot, Haste (Boots), Ki pool and the Flurry of Stars Ninja Talent he can fire off 8 shuriken at a -6 penalty.
His to hit with WF and 28 DEX would be +18 so each shuriken's hit chance will be around 50% against a level appropriate AC (-DEX).
This means you can deal roughly 114 damage in the surprise round divided out as you please. Increasing to hit would really bump this.
However DR is probably a major issue. Any ideas on how to overcome DR with Shuriken would be appreciated.
No one like my Goblin build? =(
(20pt)
Str:10
Dex:26 (+4belt + 3 lv)
Con:12
Int:11
Wis:16 (+2 hb)
Cha:11
Inic: + 10(dex,trait) CA:30(dex, wis, size,ice armor, dodge, ring, amulet, haste)
Hp:12d8+34
For:11 Ref:21 Will:14
Feats/Talents:
1:Point Blank Shot,
2:Ki pool
3:Rapid Shot
4:Weapon Training (shuiriken)
5:Extra Ki
6:Sniper's Eye
7:extra talente: ninja trick: flurry of stars
8:ninja trick:Pressure Points
9: revelation: Water Sight (oracle). Extra revelation:ice armor
10:Monk Bonus Feat:Dodge
11: Toughness
12:Hide in plan sight
Stealth +31
Oracle Spells: Obscure Mist, Abundant Amunnition
Bab+7/+2, +8Dex +1Size +1Haste(boots) +1WF +1PB +3Wand -2 Rapid Shot -2Flurry of Stars -2(BaB+1)Flurry Of bow
+1 bracer +1 inspire courage
Attacks: +19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14
damage: 1d2 +5 +5d6 + 10 +1str dmg
Obscure mist centered on the goblin for SA all turns and 20-50% miss chance on him. Abundat Amunnition + Greater Magic Weapon.
Equip: belt 16k, headband 4k, boots of speed 12k, Bracers ofof Falcon´s Aim 13k, Sniper Goggles 20k, Cloak of Resistence+3 9k, rinf of prot+1 2k, Amulet of Nat. Arm+1 2k, Wand of magic weapon greater CL12 13,5k
As was stated at the start, the rogue needs help from his buddies. The problem is getting the other players to build with you in mind.
Any way to increase your weapon to +4 while having the courageous weapon property combo's very well with Heroism. The +4 to hit is so important for the rogue, as is the +4 to all saves.
I guess your build includes a lot of the same ideas. Not sure about the obscuring mists stick. Also what is the point of sanctified rogue? I don't get it...
Also you can't pick up WF shuriken at level 4 because you're not gonna be proficient till level 10...
Greater magic weapon sadly doesn't solve the DR issue.
After rereading the goblin favored class bonus I'm liking it all the more. It doesn't only apply in the surprise round but also in the first round before targets haven't acted. As a Goblin Rogue you'll have an awesome initiative so you'll likely find another easy victim in the second round.
Throwing builds are always interesting, but they tend to have a lot of problems with dr, and they tend to fall later on as you cant enchant all of your shurikens, which hurts on your bonus to hit against higher ac. Still, I find them viable for low to mid games, and pretty fun too.
So here’s my initial idea for the surprise round Goblin Shuriken flinger. The build as proposed would usually be riding his wolf companion. This way in the surprise round wolf can move into range and you can throw all of your shuriken. The main reason for getting an Animal Companion however is the combination of Lookout, the bodyguard animal companion archetype ability Tenacious Guardian and the Bandit Rogue Archetype’s Ambush ability which ensures that you and your AC get a full round action every surprise round. Things I’d like to add to the current build are boon companion and the pressure points rogue talent. The build listed here forgoes those for added flexibility (weapon finesse) and DPR (WF shuriken).
The idea behind this build basically at all levels is to be super deadly in the surprise round and first round of combat thanks to the Goblin Rogue’s Favored Class Bonus. Afterwards you (and at later levels your animal friend) move into position to flank and try to clean up the scraps of what is a hopefully decimated enemy force.
Poof is fast but poof not strong!
Blink too slow your eyes is gone!
Now that you is dead and gone
Poof now sing a happy song!
Goblin Ninja 10
Attributes:
STR 10 (2)
DEX 26 (10 +4 magic/+2 level increases)
CON 12 (2)
WIS 11 (1)
INT 10
CHA 12 (5)
HP 58 AC 24 Reflexes +17 Will +5 Fort +6
Feats and Rogue Powers
1 TWF
2 Finesse Rogue
3 PBS
4 Flurry of Shuriken
5 Nature Soul
6 Surprise Attack
7 Animal Ally
8 Combat Feat: Rapid Shot
9 Lookout
10 WF Shuriken
Equipment (62000 total):
Headband of Ninjutsu 15000
Boots of Speed 12000
Bracer’s of Falcon’s Aim 4000
Belt of DEX +4 16000
+2 Padded Armor 4000
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor 2000
+1 Ring of Protection 2000
+2 Cloak of Protection 4000
3k left over for melee weapon of choice…
Attack Bonus hasted is 23
+8 DEX +7 BAB +1 WF +1 PBS +1 Size +1 Falcon’s Bracers +2 Headband of Ninjutsu +1 MW Shuriken +1 Haste
Penalties from RS, TWF and Flurry of Shuriken add up to -6 makes for +16 on normal attacks and +11 on the secondary attack. So that’s 75% likelihood of hitting on ordinary attacks and 50% on secondary.
Damage per hit adds up to 1+5d6+11 (29.5)
We have 7 attacks at full attack and 1 at -5. So the DPR is
29.5*.75*7+29.5*.5=169.625 DPR
Also note that DPR without the TWF extra attack is actually only 1 point lower…so that sorta frees up a feat slot…
My main issue with rogues is how dependent they are on their friends to get their sneak attack at low levels, i.e. before the Rogue (Scout) allows sneak with charge. Meaning, a player has to slog through the first three levels being a fifth wheel. I would almost say that rogues are as weak as arcane spell-casters in those levels, which is very sad. This wasn't the case in previous D&D editions, because Pathfinder boosted arcane spell-casters hit points and damage output at low levels with at-will cantrips and abilities from bloodlines and schools.
I would suggest that optimizing builds consider how to be more effective at low levels (1 to 3), when players can get discouraged.
cheers
Three inquisitor levels gives you the gang up feat bonuses which is a thing flankers would like.
What about a moms dip for the touch build?
I'm terrible but all I want to do is make a joke about your mom after seeing that acrynom.
No one like my Goblin build? =(
** spoiler omitted **
I was slightly sad that the only mention I got in the entire thread (on my rogue) was "a drow" in TarkXT's post (though I guess it's a fair assessment).
We'll commiserate together.
Does obscuring mist allow your goblin to get sneak attacks?
Looking through some feats, I've figured a way to reliably get full attacks off of twf, but it doesn't come online until level 14.
If you pick up mounted skirmisher you can full attack after the mounts move. By then you could probably combine that with the appropriate leadership feat mount and have a half decent way to get a full attack in.
Somehow a halfling riding a pegasus to fly in and full sneak attack someone in the gut just doesn't seem right though.
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Hihi. Its been a while since ive been on these forms and will admit i have not ready any post excluding the OP. Here is a whip rogue i made and played a while back to level 19. I made it primarily because my friend was complaining about how weak the Rogue is and being a waste to the party. This character is a face character, does decent dpr when there are multiple enemies, does some minor debuffing, can sneak attack almost every round, and has ac comparable to tanks in plate.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Fighter - Lore Warden, Rogue - Thug
-Stats (20 pt)-
STR 28 (Base 15)(+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)
DEX 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
CON 16 (Base 10)
INT 08 (Base 13)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
AC 41 (+ an addition 4 from combat expertise and an additional 5 from defending for a total of 50, also + 10 more from Offensive Defensive)
Touch 21
Flat - Footed 30
-Class / Feats-
R01 EWP Whip, Dodge
R02 Talent Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Whip)
R03 Whip Mastery
R04 Talent Offensive Defense
F05 Mobility, Spring Attack
F06 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
R07 Dazzling Display
R08 Talent Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
R09 Shatter Defenses
R10 Talent Combat Trick (Lunge)
R11 Skill Focus Intimidate
R12 A Talent Improved Evasion
R13 Persuasive
R14 A Talent Entanglement of Blades
R15 Improved Feint
R16 A Talent Feat (Greater Feint)
R17 Skill Focus Bluff
R18 A Talent Skill Mastery
R19 Deceitful
R20 A Talent (w/e u want)
Traits = Bully, Defensive Strategist
-Gear-
+5 Defending Holy Ghost Touch Whip
+5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Shield Cloak
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Natural Armor Necklace
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)
Belt of Physical Might (Str/Dex)
Headband of Alluring Charisma
-Misc-
Character performs a full-round action intimidate to demoralize all enemy targets within a 30ft radius then proceeds to attack with Whirlwind Lunge Attacks that apply Offensive Defense upon all targets or Entanglement of Blades depending on situation. For single targets move action with a whip attack or full-round action intimidate with full attack next round. Intimidate at cap level is d20+48 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Persuasive +5 Cha +9 Str +1 trait) and bluff is d20+38 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Deceitful +5 Cha).
If you are interested in other builds of mine they can be found below.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2phof?Builds-for-high-levels
Looking through some feats, I've figured a way to reliably get full attacks off of twf, but it doesn't come online until level 14.
If you pick up mounted skirmisher you can full attack after the mounts move. By then you could probably combine that with the appropriate leadership feat mount and have a half decent way to get a full attack in.
Somehow a halfling riding a pegasus to fly in and full sneak attack someone in the gut just doesn't seem right though.
The question is, how does that get you sneak attack?
Scout won't activate because the mount is moving, not you. Or the mount is charging, not you.
So how are you getting sneak attacks? Just flanking?
Although they are limited, I really like Jaunt Boots for this purpose as well as lunge.
Looking through some feats, I've figured a way to reliably get full attacks off of twf, but it doesn't come online until level 14.
If you pick up mounted skirmisher you can full attack after the mounts move. By then you could probably combine that with the appropriate leadership feat mount and have a half decent way to get a full attack in.
Somehow a halfling riding a pegasus to fly in and full sneak attack someone in the gut just doesn't seem right though.
The question is, how does that get you sneak attack?
Scout won't activate because the mount is moving, not you. Or the mount is charging, not you.
So how are you getting sneak attacks? Just flanking?
Although they are limited, I really like Jaunt Boots for this purpose as well as lunge.
At this point, i'm assuming, purely from flanking. Though the gang-up feat seems like it would be more viable. (I assume the mount counts as one of the 2 allies needed to make it work). With this in mind you just need to have 1 melee in combat and you can move in and then just full attack.
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In regards to making the rogue work, I really wish the ninja was proficient in a two-handed bludgeoning weapon. what's killing me the most on building something that works is the lack of weapon proficiencies rogues get. I could make it work with a half-elf, but I really need to be human for the extra feat.
I assume from this statement that ninja's lose quarterstaff proficiency.
I wanted to try building a rogue that followed the sap master line of feats. Earthbreaker seemed like an optimal choice for a two-handed, Strength-based sap master, but I wanted to find a way to get two-weapon attacks in for the extra sneak attack. Buying a huge strength was going to make having a high enough Dex for TWF very difficult, so that left a ranger dip (which has nice things to offer like skills, good BAB, and the favoured enemy mechanic) or a monk dip for flurry. I went with weapon adept monk to replace the mostly useless Stunning Fist (DC way too low since it's just a dip)with Perfect Strike, and pick up Weapon Focus for free (as well as Unarmed Strike and two other bonus feats of my choice from a decent list), excellent save boost, and no loss of BAB when I flurry.
I'm by no means an expert optimizer in any way, but here's what I came up with, written up at ninth level. I'd love some suggestions on how to improve him. He took the monk levels at level 3 and 4. A big problem is that his AC tanks at this point; he needs spells like mage armour, though the offensive defense helps a bit.
Male human Rogue (Scout/Thug) 7/Monk (Weapon Adept) 2
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +18
AC 17 (Dex +3, +1 Wis, +1 dodge, +2 deflection), touch 17, flat-footed 13
CMD 29
HP 69 (7d8+14+7+2d8+4) (FC)
Fort (5) +10, Ref (8) +13, Will (5) +8 (+2 resistance from cloak)
Defensive Abilities
barbed vest: attacker hitting with unarmed or natural attacks must make Reflex save DC 15 or take 1 point of damage
evasion: on a successful Reflex save against an area effect spell that allows a save for half damage, you take no damage
Immunities None
Resistances None
Speed 30 ft
Melee
Single Attacks
+1 holy quarterstaff +14/+9 (1d6+10; 20/x3; B and good; lethal or non-lethal) (+2d6 vs evil)
+1 holy quarterstaff lethal sneak attack +14/+9 (1d6+10+4d6; 20/x3; B; lethal) (+2d6 vs evil)
+1 holy quarterstaff non-lethal sneak attack +14/+9 (1d6+10+4d6+8; 20/x3; B; non-lethal) (+4d6+8 if opponent is flat-footed) (+2d6 vs evil)
MW cold iron sickle +13/+8 (1d6+6; 20/x2; S)
dagger +12/+7 (1d4+6; 19-20/x2; S or P)
Full Attacks
+1 holy quarterstaff +13/+13/+8 (1d6+7; 20/x3; B; lethal or non-lethal) (+2d6 vs evil)
+1 holy quarterstaff lethal sneak attack +13/+13/+8 (1d6+7+4d6; 20/x3; B; lethal) (+2d6 vs evil)
+1 holy quarterstaff non-lethal sneak attack +13/+13/+8 (1d6+7+4d6+8; 20/x3; B; non-lethal) (+4d6+8 if opponent is flat-footed) (+2d6 vs evil)
Ranged
sling +9/+4 (1d4+6; 20/x2; 50 feet; B)
dagger +9 (1d4+6; 19-20/x2; 10 feet; P)
Special Actions
sneak attack: [/i]+4d6 against flanked or flat-footed opponents (+4d6+8 for non-lethal lethal) (+4d6+8 if opponent is flat-footed)bludgeoning damage)
frightening: Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round.
brutal beating: reduce sneak attack damage by 1d6 (or non-lethal bludgeoning sneak attack by 2d6+2) to make target sickened for a number of rounds equal to half her rogue level (3)
scout’s charge: whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attackdamage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
daredevil softpaw boots: up to 10 rounds per day, can use boots to receive a +5 bonus on Acrobatics checks to avoid AoOs. If no AoOs are incurred through movement, he receives a +2 bonus to attack rolls for rest of turn.
Abilities Str 22 (+6), Dex 16 (+3), Con 14 (+2), Int 7 (-2), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 12 (+1)
Base Attack +6/+1; Melee Touch +12/+7; Ranged Touch +9/+4
CMB +13
Feats
Sap Adept (human): when using a bludgeoning weapon to deal sneak attack damage, add (2) (twice the number of sneak attack dice) to the total
Bludgeoner (1): use a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal non-lethal damage with no penalty
Perfect Strike (M1):once per monk level, plus once per four other levels (3) per day, roll an attack roll twice and take better result
Improved Unarmed Strike (M1): [i]considered armed when attacking without weapons
Dodge (M1): +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD
Enforcer (3): Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
Weapon Focus – quarterstaff (M2): +1 to attack with quarterstaff
Combat Reflexes (M2): can make 1 + Dex modifier (2) attacks of opportunity per round, and can make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed
Dazzling Display (5): While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus, you can perform a bewildering show of prowess as a full-round action. Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within 30 feet who can see your display.
Intimidating Prowess (R4): Apply Strength modifier to Intimidate as well as Charisma
Sap Master (7): Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
Shatter Defenses (9): Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
Rogue Talents
Slow Reactions* (R2): Opponents damaged by the rogue's sneak attack can't make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Strong Impression (R4): Gain Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat
Offensive Defense (R6): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for one round.
Traits
Bred for War: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks and a +1 trait bonus on your CMB because of your great size. You must be at least 6 feet tall.
Tactician: You gain a +1 trait bonus on initiative checks. In addition, once per day when you make an attack of opportunity, you gain a +2 trait bonus on the attack roll.
Skills
Acrobatics (7) +13
Bluff (4) +8
Climb (4) +13
Disable Device (9) +15
Intimidate (9) +20
Perception (9) +18
Stealth (7) +13
Use Magic Device (6) +10
Languages
Common
PP – 0
GP – 737
SP – 9
CP – 10
Carrying Capacity: Light – 100 lbs; Medium – 200 lbs; Heavy = 300 lbs; Current – 74 lbs (Light)
Weapons – +1 holy quarter staff (18,300 gp, 4 lbs), MW cold iron sickle (312 gp, 2 lbs), sling (0 gp, 0 lbs), sling bullets (0.1 gp, 5 lbs), dagger (2 gp, 1 lb)
Armour –
Alchemical –
Other Combat Gear –
Scrolls –
Potions –
Wands – mage armour (25) (375 gp), shield (25) (375 gp),
Other Magic Items – ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp, 0 lbs), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp, 1 lb), belt of physical might (Str, Dex) +2 (10,000 gp, 1 lb), [i]eyes of the eagle (2,500 gp, 0 lbs), daredevil softpaw boots (1,400 gp, 1 lb)
Mundane Gear – explorer's outfit (-- gp, 8 lbs), bedroll (0.1 gp, 5 lbs), belt pouch (1 gp, 0.5 lbs), waterskin (1 gp, 4 lbs), silk rope - 50 feet (10 gp, 5 lbs), hooded lantern (7 gp, 2 lbs), 3 x Oil (0.3 gp, 3 lbs), backpack (2 gp, 2 lbs), thieves' tools (30 gp, 1 lb), grappling hook (1 gp, 4 lbs), rations x 4 (2 gp, 4 lbs), crowbar (2 gp, 5 lbs), caltrops x 2 (2 gp, 4 lbs), pitons x 5 (0.5 gp, 2.5 lbs), barbed vest (10 gp, 4 lbs), drill (0.5 gp, 1 lb), chalk x 5 (0.05 gp, 0 lbs), ear trumpet (5 gp, 2 lbs), saw (0.2 gp, 4 lbs), notebook (1 gp, 0 lbs), pencil (0.1 gp, 0 lbs)
@Nazard: Try Natural attacks they solve all the problem you listed and save you that pesky -2 penalty to hit...claws are slashing and piercing weapons so they qualify for Bludgeoner or better yet Blade of Mercy and the Sap Master Line.
In re the Underhanded rogue talent, you can draw a weapon as part of a charge, and you can charge in a surprise round as long as you don't move more than your normal movement speed.
In regards to making the rogue work, I really wish the ninja was proficient in a two-handed bludgeoning weapon. what's killing me the most on building something that works is the lack of weapon proficiencies rogues get. I could make it work with a half-elf, but I really need to be human for the extra feat.
A few traits can lessen your ills: most likely shoanti tatoo which grants proficiency with the Earth breaker is just what you were looking for...
@Nazard: Try Natural attacks they solve all the problem you listed and save you that pesky -2 penalty to hit...claws are slashing and piercing weapons so they qualify for Bludgeoner or better yet Blade of Mercy and the Sap Master Line.
I'm sorry... weapons that are slashing and piercing qualify for a feat that requires bludgeoning? Is there a rule I'm missing somewhere (quite possible, as I've been away from the game for awhile and am not very familiar with anything after Ultimate Equipment)?
Blade of Mercy basically does for slashing weapons what Bludgeoner does for bludgeoning, except it still doesn't make slashing weapons qualify for the Sap Master Line.
You don't need to fix the rogue, just fix the campaign the rogue is playing in. Not everything is hack'n slash and the rogue excels there and even manages to 'sneak' his damage into combat!!
Feat, two words: Improved feint (preruiquisite: combat expertise)
It allows the rogue to create his own flatfooted adversary in a move action (instead of a standard action) and then nail him with the 'standard action' attack including sneak damage.
A rogue, using acrobatics, can jump into the square of a adversary to use flanking and sneaking the opponent (but you need a partymember threatening this oponent). The jump succeeds if the acrobatics check succeeds and will deny the adversary an attack of opportunity.
So get a rogue with a high dexterity (maybe using a dex weapon) and max out his acrobatics skill and his bluff skill (used to feint).
I also liked someone's suggestion to use a reach weapon for flanking.
@Nazard
Thats right, only bludgeoning works for sap master, maybe he confused the wording in the feat.
@Snowleopard
Dont take improved feint, its a trap for rogues. Giving up your full attack for a single SA is suboptimal in the best, you would be better off focusing on getting into position for a flank.
If you want to go the feint line, I suggest two-weapon feint. With this, instead of giving up your move action, you give up your first attack in your full attack for virtually the same effect. Also take a look at scout archetype, it greatly helps in getting SA's while you position yourself.
Looking through some feats, I've figured a way to reliably get full attacks off of twf, but it doesn't come online until level 14.
If you pick up mounted skirmisher you can full attack after the mounts move. By then you could probably combine that with the appropriate leadership feat mount and have a half decent way to get a full attack in.
Somehow a halfling riding a pegasus to fly in and full sneak attack someone in the gut just doesn't seem right though.
The question is, how does that get you sneak attack?
Scout won't activate because the mount is moving, not you. Or the mount is charging, not you.
So how are you getting sneak attacks? Just flanking?
Although they are limited, I really like Jaunt Boots for this purpose as well as lunge.
im pretty sure riding a mount that's charging counts as you charging, else the cavalier class straight up doesnt work.
@Snowleopard
Dont take improved feint, its a trap for rogues. Giving up your full attack for a single SA is suboptimal in the best, you would be better off focusing on getting into position for a flank.
That's why I suggested the acrobatics as well that will get you in flanking position without an attack of opportunity (provided that you make the skill check off course). You can use acrobatics to use half movement through threatened squares and not get an attack of opportunity. You can even go through adversaries (greater difficulty but it's possible).
If you want to go the feint line, I suggest two-weapon feint. With this, instead of giving up your move action, you give up your first attack in your full attack for virtually the same effect. Also take a look at scout archetype, it greatly helps in getting SA's while you position yourself.
Nice one thanx, I will definitly keep that one in mind.
I'm sorry... weapons that are slashing and piercing qualify for a feat that requires bludgeoning? Is there a rule I'm missing somewhere (quite possible, as I've been away from the game for awhile and am not very familiar with anything after Ultimate Equipment)?
Blade of Mercy basically does for slashing weapons what Bludgeoner does for bludgeoning, except it still doesn't make slashing weapons qualify for the Sap Master Line.
I'm sorry Claws deal slashing and bludgeoning damage. Thus via Blade of Mercy you can actually qualify for Sapmaster. Kindo cheesy but hey...
You don't need to fix the rogue, just fix the campaign the rogue is playing in. Not everything is hack'n slash and the rogue excels there and even manages to 'sneak' his damage into combat!!
Feat, two words: Improved feint (preruiquisite: combat expertise)
It allows the rogue to create his own flatfooted adversary in a move action (instead of a standard action) and then nail him with the 'standard action' attack including sneak damage.
A rogue, using acrobatics, can jump into the square of a adversary to use flanking and sneaking the opponent (but you need a partymember threatening this oponent). The jump succeeds if the acrobatics check succeeds and will deny the adversary an attack of opportunity.
So get a rogue with a high dexterity (maybe using a dex weapon) and max out his acrobatics skill and his bluff skill (used to feint).I also liked someone's suggestion to use a reach weapon for flanking.
And the bard full attacks with bonuses because he can hurt enemies that aren't flat footed. So does the inquisitor. Both can use their casting stat for all their social skills. Both have spells. The social intrigue campaign is not the salvation of the rogue. He's just as sad there as anywhere else.
If you can't bring something to the table we're going to give your position to someone else. Other people in this thread are trying to find ways around the rogue's problems. You're just pretending the problems don't exist.
There are other ways for a rogue then using social skills: like steal, slight of hand, forgery. You don't need to be a diplomat, just break into the archive and plant the treaty you wanted to make with the kingdom your party wants to negociate. Then suggest you were just here to confirm the age-old treaty between both kingdoms and their 'eternal' bond.
Poison or disease the adversary in order to gain a social advantage. That way the lesser negociater will have to do the negociating.Sneak into the room of the opposing party or to the window and eavesdrop in order to learn their strategy and possibly their intend.
There are so many ways for a rogue to be usefull if you and a GM just look for the right use of the rogues specific skills. What I meant to say was to play the rogue to his/her strength and not to the strengths of other classes.
You're also confusing jump and tumble. Jump does not prevent attacks of opportunity. Tumble is against CMD.
You are right, I stand corrected
There are other ways for a rogue then using social skills: like steal, slight of hand, forgery. You don't need to be a diplomat, just break into the archive and plant the treaty you wanted to make with the kingdom your party wants to negociate. Then suggest you were just here to confirm the age-old treaty between both kingdoms and their 'eternal' bond.
Poison or disease the adversary in order to gain a social advantage. That way the lesser negociater will have to do the negociating.Sneak into the room of the...
The only issue with what you describe is none of that is "rogue" specific. We can pull off the above with a ranger, bard, inquisitor, or alchemist.
Yet, no one will tell you that these above classes have many if any issues. Therein lies a sort of problem.
What we're trying to accomplish here is a rogue or set of rogues that can work around these problems and be a significant contributing member of a group without being outright replaced with any of the above classes.
You don't need to fix the rogue, just fix the campaign the rogue is playing in. Not everything is hack'n slash and the rogue excels there and even manages to 'sneak' his damage into combat!!
Feat, two words: Improved feint (preruiquisite: combat expertise)
It allows the rogue to create his own flatfooted adversary in a move action (instead of a standard action) and then nail him with the 'standard action' attack including sneak damage.
A rogue, using acrobatics, can jump into the square of a adversary to use flanking and sneaking the opponent (but you need a partymember threatening this oponent). The jump succeeds if the acrobatics check succeeds and will deny the adversary an attack of opportunity.
So get a rogue with a high dexterity (maybe using a dex weapon) and max out his acrobatics skill and his bluff skill (used to feint).I also liked someone's suggestion to use a reach weapon for flanking.
And the bard full attacks with bonuses because he can hurt enemies that aren't flat footed. So does the inquisitor. Both can use their casting stat for all their social skills. Both have spells. The social intrigue campaign is not the salvation of the rogue. He's just as sad there as anywhere else.
If you can't bring something to the table we're going to give your position to someone else. Other people in this thread are trying to find ways around the rogue's problems. You're just pretending the problems don't exist.
There are other ways for a rogue then using social skills: like steal, slight of hand, forgery. You don't need to be a diplomat, just break into the archive and plant the treaty you wanted to make with the kingdom your party wants to negociate. Then suggest you were just here to confirm the age-old treaty between both kingdoms and their 'eternal' bond.
Poison or disease the adversary in order to gain a social advantage. That way the lesser negociater will have to do the negociating.Sneak into the room of the...
The reason for this thread particularly is those advantages you listed aren't advantages at all.
For example the bard could break into the vaults as easy or even easier (he has spells and via versatile performance has more skills). This creates a situation where the rogue isn't fulfilling a niche that can't be filled by someone even more useful in combat.
Am I the only one that is depressed by all the two-handed bludgeoning, strength builds? Great clubs and lucerne hammers just don't sound like Rogue weapons to me. Sure you can get them to work, but it feels like you are selling your soul in exchange for combat effectiveness.
My apologies to those that actually like big bruiser Rogues.
Am I the only one that is depressed by all the two-handed bludgeoning, strength builds? Great clubs and lucerne hammers just don't sound like Rogue weapons to me. Sure you can get them to work, but it feels like you are selling your soul in exchange for combat effectiveness.
My apologies to those that actually like big bruiser Rogues.
As someone who was just trying to figure out a way to use an earthbreaker while mounted and charging (which sadly doesn't work) i completely agree. Sad truth is there's no effective way to have the dagger rogue work efficiently. (so far)
Am I the only one that is depressed by all the two-handed bludgeoning, strength builds? Great clubs and lucerne hammers just don't sound like Rogue weapons to me. Sure you can get them to work, but it feels like you are selling your soul in exchange for combat effectiveness.
My apologies to those that actually like big bruiser Rogues.
Personally, my efforts to go with quarterstaff were inspired by Mat Cauthon from Wheel of Time.
That being said, great clubs and lucerne hammers might fit very nicely with the "thug" interpretation of a rogue. The great thing about rogues is that you can have so many variations, from the debonair rake with a rapier to the back alley, toothless street tough.
If your toothless street tough started swinging into battle on a chandelier while flourishing his cape and winking at the ladies, that might count as wrongbadfun.
Hmmm...new ideas are a-churning...
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As someone who was just trying to figure out a way to use an earthbreaker while mounted and charging (which sadly doesn't work) i completely agree. Sad truth is there's no effective way to have the dagger rogue work efficiently. (so far)Am I the only one that is depressed by all the two-handed bludgeoning, strength builds? Great clubs and lucerne hammers just don't sound like Rogue weapons to me. Sure you can get them to work, but it feels like you are selling your soul in exchange for combat effectiveness.
My apologies to those that actually like big bruiser Rogues.
The stealth beyond stealth rogue disagrees with you! Never get detected while sneaking, get a SA on the guy and run back to the shadows! Sure, Scavion build uses a shortsword, but it would work just fine with a dagger, if not even more flavorful!
Edit: link is here, search for his second build, the adjusted stealth beyond stealth rogue. 40 stealth on level 11 baby, you cant beat -that-!
You can build a decent dagger rogue, the only problem is that Sap Master is really really really really good. If you can use it, you will see huge damage. If you are going to stealth, well then sniping is the easiest route for that. A TWF rogue can work, it just highlights some of the rogues issues.
However, for argument's sake, lets go through a knife master. There are two ways to do this, throwing or melee. It can be tough to do both, and getting sneak attacks on a full ranged attack is not easy.
It may seem like you can feint at range, but the Archer fighter archtype confirms that you cannot, so, invisibility is probably the best way to get a full ranged dagger SA. The other issue with thrown weapons is that you basically just need a blinkback belt. Returning doesn't get your weapons back until the end of your turn. This takes up an incredibly valuable slot, so you are stuck paying +50% to put it in a diff. slot, or you are limited to a very few items.
In the end, there is no mechanical benefit to using a dagger... it feels like it should be more accurate somehow, but it isn't. There also aren't really any particular feats that support daggers or light weapons.
Sure, a dagger master gets +1 dmg per SA die, but that is about it. You need combat expertise, imp feint, TW feint, TWF just to be functional, and this is a heavy feat investment. You are also starting to get a little MAD when you get stuck with needing a 13 int on a class that get 8+ skill/lvl.
Anyway, here is a knife-master build:
Human Fighter 1, Rogue (knife master/scout) lvl 11
Str: 12 (+2 belt)
Dex: 23 (+2 race, +3 levels, +2 belt)
Con: 14 (+2 belt)
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
Feats/Talents:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint (fighter), Two-Weapon Fighting (Human)
3: Two-Weapon Feint, Finesse Rogue
5: Dazzling Display , Weapon Training (Focus Kukri)
7: Hero's Display, Combat Trick (Performing Combatant)
9: Shatter Defenses, Offensive Defense
11: Imp. Two Weapon Fighting, Feat: Dramatic Display
13: Masterful display, Open Talent
Gear:
2x +2 Kukri
+3 Mithral Chain
+2 belt of physical perfection
Duelists Vambraces
Headband of Ninjitsu
Circlet of Persuasion
+3 cloak of resistance.
Other stuff.
OFFENSE:
BAB: +10/+5 SA:6d8 with knives
Attack Sequence
Sacrifice first attack to feint. +23 (13 rank, 3 train, 2 cha, 2 head, 3 circlet)
Perform Check to activate Hero's Display and Dramatic Display +13 vs. DC 20(+3 BAB, +3 perform ranks, +3 circlet, +2 cha, +2 feat)
Use Heros Display to intimidate all in 30ft. +20 (12 ranks, 3 train, 2 cha, 3 circlet)
If that all works, which you have fair odds on, you will finish up your attacks (10 BAB, 6 dex, 2 weapon, 1 focus, 2 headband, 2 dram. display, -2 TWF)
Attack Bonus:
1st MH: Spent of feinting.
1st OH: +21, 1d4+6d8+7
2nd MH: +16, 1d4+6d8+7
2nd OH: +18, 1d4+6d8+7 (use vambraces)
Average flat footed AC of CR 13s is about 27-28, so you have moderate hit chances. Your attacks will deal 36.5 damage on average, but this is just really weak. Even if everything hit in a full round, you are talking appx 115 dmg. A sap master scout can land that in one swing while moving at level 12.