Chief Technical Officer
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Many of you have asked about the possibility of getting fixes for cards that have been changed via resolutions from the FAQ; it's something I've been looking into for a while.
First of all, I'd like to address the scope. As of this moment, there are 23 cards that have had changes issued, and I've seen that that volume is causing some people to think there are "a ton of errors" in the set. To be fair, a lot of this is due to my policy of saying that if something is worthy of a FAQ, it's worthy of a change; some of the changes issued have literally zero game effect, and almost all of the cards work just fine as they are; they're issues that many publishers would simply issue a FAQ entry for and never contemplate changing the wording of an actual card for, but I want to do better than that.
Here's a summary of the scale of the issues helpfully compiled by Scribbling Rambler:
1/ Detect Magic has a game affecting misprint on it.
2/ The Sandpoint Cathedral and Town Square have the correct information, but in a non-standard order.
3/ Bruthazmus, the +1 Bastard Sword, and the +1 Warhammer are each missing a trait.
4/ Scorching Ray erroneously has the Basic Trait.
5/ Speed is missing a Divine check.
6/ The Sihedron Medallion is mislabeled as to which set it came from.
7/ Other cards could be worded more clearly.IMO, only 1, 3, & 5 actually affect gameplay.
(I mention this not to downplay the issue, but because there's an economic issue associated with it, which I'll get to later, so just keep that in mind.)
Okay, so, on to what we can do about it.
Given the scope, it's just not feasible to reprint these cards at either of the two card printers we use; their minimum press run requirements make the expense simply unjustifiable.
I've been focusing on the possibility of having DriveThru Cards sell them as print-on-demand sets, which would be my preferred solution; I'm comfortable from the samples I've received that they can approximate the appropriate card stock, and they assure me that they can color-match the existing card backs, but the big problem is that their card die produces cards that are about half a millimeter shorter and narrower than our cards. When I stack one of their cards in a deck of ours, it's easy enough to spot if the deck is squared up; it's pretty hard to tell if your stack is messy, especially if you're not specifically looking for it. (DriveThru did raise the possibility of making a new custom die, but it would cost several thousand dollars, and would also create workflow issues for them: changing the die for a couple dozen cards every time somebody orders a set is something they'd really rather not do.)
Lisa, our CEO, thinks that if this were a competitive game like Magic: The Gathering, that size difference would make this a nonstarter, but for a cooperative game, maybe it's okay—you really can't tell if you're not looking for it, and, as there's no million-dollar pro tour on the line, there's not a lot of incentive for people to use it to cheat.
I'm not sure if it's good enough for you or not, though.
As for the economic issue, of course we'd want to make these available from DriveThru at their minimum cost; Paizo wouldn't make any money from these sales. I haven't done the exact math (partly because there might be a few more cards getting changes in the near future), but if our deck (with duplicates of the cards that need them) is around 60 cards, we're talking around $8 plus shipping. If your reaction is that that's too much, the alternative is to just print the cards that really have worthwhile changes; I'm sure not everyone will agree where to draw that line, but if it were down to ten cards or so, I'm thinking that the cost could come in at $2 or less (plus shipping).
The next best answer after DriveThru is making a PDF available, but I think that's less helpful to a larger number of people; it's also something we may want to do *in addition* to a print-on-demand solution.
So at this point, I'd like your feedback. Specifically:
1: Would you prefer print-on-demand cards or a PDF? (Or both?)
2: If you want print-on-demand, would you rather pay something like $8 (plus shipping) for every little change, or pay just a couple bucks for the few really important ones?
Please help keep this thread focused on providing feedback about these solutions, and avoid getting into specifics about errata, or the like. And if you have an idea that isn't addressed above, feel free to suggest it.
Thanks!
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Chief Technical Officer
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I would think the size difference would be even less noticeable for those who sleeve their cards.
Yes—if you sleeve, you will hopefully be utterly unable to distinguish a DriveThru card from a regular card.
(I don't want to get into a discussion about sleeves here, please—that's another issue I'm working on right now, and it will get its own thread when I have some more information.)
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I'd say that the relative ease of providing a PDF makes it an obvious choice, regardless of whether or not you also print the new cards. As someone who sleeves my cards, that would be enough for me, as I could print the PDF and put the paper in my sleeves with the cards.
But I might be willing to also pay the $2-3 plus shipping for reprints of the cards that affect game play, if that option became available. As long as there's a PDF, though, I don't consider that mandatory.
1) Both. The cards themselves would address the issue as much as possible (within the card size limitations you mentioned) for those that really feel they need the cards; PDF will provide a 'free' solution to those that just want to have the updates and can manage applying them themselves with um... card covering devices.
2) $8. If we're going to go through the trouble of ordering them, may as well get what we can. Also, more cards will provide a greater pool of 'offsize' cards to at least diminish the 'marked cards' pool (it's a minor issue, but worth mentioning). Is there any chance that DTC can provide both fix pack sizes?
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'd say that the relative ease of providing a PDF makes it an obvious choice...
You've reminded me to point out that no matter what we do, there will be a delay between changing something in the FAQ and making it available as a replacement card. I can add a FAQ entry myself in a matter of seconds once a call has been finalized, but updating a PDF involves three additional people whose available time is often more scarce than my own, so stuff will need to be batched. And getting it added to DriveThru will take longer than that.
Personally I think the pdf is a great solution.
That probably because I'm rather OCD when comes to consistency and since I sleeve my cards, I can use the solution mentioned above.
I also want to add that I appreciate Vic's effort in resolving this situation and even though I have had some problems with customer service recently, I still think Paizo is one of the few companies that really take an interest in what the customers are saying.
Thank you.
1: Would you prefer print-on-demand cards or a PDF? (Or both?)
A. I would prefer print-on-demand or both.
2: If you want print-on-demand, would you rather pay something like $8 (plus shipping) for every little change, or pay just a couple bucks for the few really important ones?
A. I am a stickler for consistency, I would prefer all cards that are incorrect in some way be corrected and I would pay $8.00 shipping and Handling for the new cards.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Is there any chance that DTC can provide both fix pack sizes?
I'd like to avoid that. I don't for a minute believe that the changes to this set will stop anytime in the next year, so I'd basically like to issue a sort of "errata base set" that's followed up with additional sets once we have a big enough batch that it's worth doing. (Additional sets would be rolled into the base set for new purchasers.) Basically, I don't want the options there to be so numerous that people get confused about what they want to buy. So I kind of want to set a single scale of "this is worth printing."
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Why not do what Fantasy Flight games does, add the reprints into another separate set.
I other words Add the reprinted 23 cards to A future expansion pack.
In fact you can do both, add them to an Expansion pack which will cover your minimum run issues and have the correct size cards with your printer and release them through drivethrurpg for those players that don't like the idea of having to buy a another product to fix the game they bought (though both will cost them money albeit one is cheaper).
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Chief Technical Officer
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We've already printed all of the expansion sets for the entire year.
Even if we hadn't, though, card printers use sheets of a particular size—our sheet sizes are 55 or 110 cards. We can't just add 15 cards to a 110-card expansion—doing so means filling spots on the sheet that would have otherwise been used for new cards. (And wouldn't you rather have a new card than an old card that has been reworded?)
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We've already printed all of the expansion sets for the entire year.
That is fine, Do it for next year...
And is year through December or a Year from now? If through to December that is not that long of a wait.
I would rather wait for the proper cut and colors added to a print of an expansion deck then get a somewhat inferior product.
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I'd far prefer print-on-demand cards over a PDF.
On the $8 vs. the "only important" cards:
I've subscribed to the game, so I am effectively "all-in." If that $8 pack comes out, I won't hesitate to get it, and I'd probably prefer it. I wouldn't at all be unhappy, however, if the decision is to only print those cards that are "really important," then I'd get that, too. I realize there are other people who are more budget-conscious about it, and I'd want their needs considered, too.
My #1 option, however, would be to wait until next year's base set (or whatever) and have corrected cards thrown into that print run. Of course, if you were going to do that, I'd prefer to know in advance so that I don't order the DriveThru option...
I agree the PDF should be in either way.
My preferred solution, have a PDF available and updated when possible. After the entire run has released and been played enough to have final errata worked out, print a correction run at non profit. If a second series is made, include the errata cards from the first series for free.
I also have a question, if you are limited to 55 and 110 card runs, can you print multiples in the same run, ie if there were 22 errata cards after all is said and done, each 110 sheet could print 5 sets.
I'd be happy with just the pdf. So far I have written on the cards and that has made things clear. The pdf would be an easier reference than the errata printed out.
The eight-ish dollar option for me.
I'd quite like it if I could order them through your site (I've done that before with other companies who use POD). Not sure of the logistics involved there though.
Thank you for the response and chance to provide feedback.
Both the PDF(with margins that are Letter and A4 friendly) and Print on Demand $8 option.
I hope these can be distributed with the expansions to save on P&P.
The POD option makes it much easier for club games there is already enough downtime in 4+ games without the need for an errata look up.
I'm for the PDF in any case and the 8$ solution.
Great game, by the way, I just got it the base game and the add-on deck in the last two days and the solo games I've played have been very enjoyable.
Could we add Ambush to the list of cards where the wording change is important?
And I'm ambivalent; as a sleever, the difference in size won't be noticed. But as a sleever, a corrected PDF works just fine too (it's what I have done with other games pending/instead of corrected cards).
I believe that PDF must be included, as almost every gamer affected will be able to use that option if they choose. Don't make the only option to have customers pay more money for something they did not do.
As an additional option, Pay to Print sounds good for the next step up; those who want to invest in the game, and don't mind paying a little more. Is it possible to have all cards on the "list" available for P2P, and let the customer choose from "Just effects gameplay" to "I want everything to look perfect please"?
What I am most concerned about is if the following expansions are of the same "quality" play testing and proofreading; are all customers just going to have to shell out $8 more for every coming expansion too?
I'm new to all this, but I'd gladly pay the $8 for such a great game.
I would go for both.
PDF for speed of change and the prited cards for a better finish.
Do drive through have a Europen branch?
Would it be possable to include the Promo cards in these reprints for those of us who did not get access to them?
Andy
Thanks for the detailed, considered and helpful post, Vic. You guys are Awesome (note the capital 'A').
I'd be in for both the $8 set (even though shipping to the UK is probably going to double that cost) and the PDFs.
If there's any way that you could print up some 100% accurate sized cards in the future I'd probably buy that too. e.g. if there was an errata pack for sale in a year's time, printed off when you print AP#2. You might even have 110 errata cards by then ;) You could even stick a couple of specials/promos in the pack and then completionists like me will just have to buy it :)
$8 no prob. As long as card back colors match the originals
Should we not also wait to see if any more card fixes come up with future sets?
Maybe someone at Piazo can go through the cards from the rest of the sets just to verify there are no more miss prints. If I do this I'd like it to be a one time deal.
Thanks for the effort.
If the corrected cards are available I will purchase them, and thank you for the effort in addressing the misprints. (also thank you a fantastic game)
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I'm not one who thinks reprints are totally necessary, but if they were available as print-on-demand, I would still order them. I'd be willing to pay the $8 plus shipping. I do NOT sleeve my cards, so the pdf wouldn't be any more useful than the FAQ, but either way the PDF is a good idea.
Thanks for addressing this, Vic, even if it was just to appease a relatively small number of very vocal forum users. I was getting tired of seeing it repeated over and over.
+1 for at least the PDF, and I'll buy whatever errata pack you make available though I'd prefer the $8 set.
Sign me up for the $8 DriveThru option. As mentioned by Deekow, the greater pool of cards that are "off" will lessen how noticeable they are.
Would this include cards in future packs that have errata on them that are known, but not released yet? For example, The Amulet of Fiery Fists that is already in the FAQ.
On a side note, I would love a PDF update of the rulebook containing all the paragraph changes.
I think pdf & drivethrough RPG print-on demand 60-card deck is the way to go.
Lets say I wait a year or six months to buy this replacement deck, will it have all errata rolled into it? I'd rather wait to see if as expansions come out more cards get added to the list.
Like will you keep adding to the virtual deck at DriveThrough RPG? Then I can buy that just once if I feel I need it.
Don't care about the PDF. I'd definitely pay for print on demand.
I vote for (1) both and (2) the $8 option. ^_^
A PDF file with the corrected cards is fine. If you could do print on demand cards that exactly match the originals, I would pay for them. However, since I don't sleeve my cards I don't want mis-sized cards in the mix.
Something I'm not sure I saw mentioned - Would the print on demand cards include corrections for the yet unreleased adventure decks 2-6? Or only the base set + adventure deck 1 and character add-on pack? If I were interested in buying the print on demand cards I would be worried future card corrections would come up and I'd have to pay for them again.
I'd definitely want the PDF, that's a no-brainer; I like them for reference, etc.; it's super-easy to reference a PDF instead of finding a card in the box.
However, I find the idea of print-on-demand decks really enticing. I don't sleeve my cards, as I find it to be a pain in the derriere, and not trashing my actual set with repeated gameplay for simply $8 plus shipping would be awesome. I'd replace the entire deck and just use that.
Just a fun little idea I had... since every pack is already printed, what about designing a "roleplayers accessory" pack of sorts. Maybe fun little things to add to the game that don't alter the balance of the game, but add little fun things for the roleplayers. Within that, you can also include the reprinted cards. (Which would lower the amount of things you'd have to design) Then it would be an entire expansion pack and more cost effective?
One idea I had was a pickpocket deck. In the Pathfinder RPG, I have an old list that whenever people pickpocket someone I make rolls on this table. They might pick something valuable, get some pocket lint, or maybe even a piece of cheese wrapped in a hanky. I'm thinking for game mechanics for the card game, something along the lines of if you have a dexterity of d10 or d12, you get the skill Pickpocket: Dexterity +2. You can use it when you attempt to evade a monster. If you succeed, you can draw a card from the pickpocket deck. Could be something useful, or something just to discard. If you fail, you are caught and have to fight.
Just some odd idea that sprang in my head as I was reading this.
I would prefer to pay the $8 for print on demand.
But just to be clear, if you do the print on demand, is the only option with the half a millimeter shorter and narrower cards?
I am one who does not use card sleeves (as I want them to fit in the predesigned slots of the box), so if they are smaller, I would rather wait for an option to have them printed on the same sized and thickness card stock.
Well, as originator of the infamous petition thread, I'm glad we're finally able to discuss this to a reasonable extent.
Before I give my vote on a $2 vs. $8 pack, I'd like to know the full extent of cards that would be included in the $8 pack. For instance, would blessing of the gods contain a rewording that would prevent confusion regarding its inability to copy the recharge effect?
Right now I'm leaning towards the $2.00 PoD option.
The size difference is a slight concern.
Also, what would be the policy to cards that are discovered with typos/omissions in the upcoming adventure packs? Would they get cards integrated into those PoD packs, or how exactly would that work?
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Chief Technical Officer
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The eight-ish dollar option for me.
I'd quite like it if I could order them through your site (I've done that before with other companies who use POD). Not sure of the logistics involved there though.
For the first set, that might be possible (though, since we want to price them at DriveThru's cost, which doesn't include shipping, having them shipped to us would actually mean we'd lose a little money on every one we carried). But once additional cards are added, the options get more complicated, and I think most customers will just be better served if they deal directly with DriveThru to begin with.