Chief Technical Officer
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I also have a question, if you are limited to 55 and 110 card runs, can you print multiples in the same run, ie if there were 22 errata cards after all is said and done, each 110 sheet could print 5 sets.
Yes... but the more copies of a set you print on a sheet, the fewer sheets you print, and the printer's minimums are really about how many sheets you print.
Definitely the PDF and I would seriously consider the POD option at $8.
As postage is probably more than $2 to Europe I probably won't buy the minimum card option, as I try to avoid paying more for S&H then for the actual product.
Now if you add in some extra characters or other nice things to make it a full 55 or even 110 cards I would consider it a must have. Then I would not mind paying full price for that expansion, even if it contains some errata. As a single character already uses 3 cards it should be easy to fill: just add all the remaining iconics ;-), and the fun stuff like cards for alchemy, guns, cavalier mounts and you are nearly there.
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Chief Technical Officer
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What I am most concerned about is if the following expansions are of the same "quality" play testing and proofreading; are all customers just going to have to shell out $8 more for every coming expansion too?
This goes back to the "scope" issue above. Just to be clear here—nearly all of the cards we've errata'd work perfectly fine as printed—they're mostly just clarifications, many of which are there to cover edge cases. Part of the reason I'm talking about a possible $8 price point is that it includes 37 copies of Blessing of the Gods, because the updated text on that card explicitly states that the card copies only the power. This is exactly the kind of thing that most publishers would fix simply by posting a FAQ saying "Blessing of the Gods does not copy the recharge," and be done with it.
Yes, future releases have exactly the same quality of playtesting and proofreading, and while it's not perfect, it's frankly pretty damn good. It's just a simple fact that when you have *tens of thousands* of people looking at a game, they will ask questions that *hundreds* of people didn't think to ask. It's going to happen with chapter 2, and chapter 3, and, frankly, with every product we will ever release. Heck, I fully expect that a year from now, somebody will ask a really good question I've never been asked before about some card in the Base Set that I think is good enough to merit a change.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I don't for a minute believe that the changes to this set will stop anytime in the next year, so I'd basically like to issue a sort of "errata base set" that's followed up with additional sets once we have a big enough batch that it's worth doing. (Additional sets would be rolled into the base set for new purchasers.)
Reposting this bit because I think a bunch of people didn't read it.
For the first set, that might be possible (though, since we want to price them at DriveThru's cost, which doesn't include shipping, having them shipped to us would actually mean we'd lose a little money on every one we carried). But once additional cards are added, the options get more complicated, and I think most customers will just be better served if they deal directly with DriveThru to begin with.The eight-ish dollar option for me.
I'd quite like it if I could order them through your site (I've done that before with other companies who use POD). Not sure of the logistics involved there though.
What I was envisioning was an $8 price point through them and $9 through you (or whatever it needed to be). I don't think you should wear the cost of making my life easier. :)
Most people would no doubt take the cheaper option, but I don't give out my details lightly and would pay for that convenience. There would also be (potential) shipping savings for those of us with international subscriptions (I imagine they'd end up shipping to me for nothing).
As someone who only sees this as a physical product, I wasn't really considering the prospect of it being updated. Rather I'd just imagine paying $8 for "errata set one" and a further $8 down the track, whenever there was enough cards to release errata set two.
I would be willing to pay the $8 option. And as a subscriber I would be willing to pay $10 if Paizo stocked it and I could add it to my normal monthly shipment.
I however sleeve the game, so a PDF would be a fine work around for me as well if they do not come out with a physical card.
I would want both the PDF and the $8 option
But just to be clear, if you do the print on demand, is the only option with the half a millimeter shorter and narrower cards?Realistically, yes.
I see. Thanks for the response.
I don't for a minute believe that the changes to this set will stop anytime in the next year, so I'd basically like to issue a sort of "errata base set" that's followed up with additional sets once we have a big enough batch that it's worth doing. (Additional sets would be rolled into the base set for new purchasers.)
So to clarify, you would like to re-release the original boxed set and follow-up expansions when enough cards have been found (needing errata) to justify a large enough batch? And this would be with the standard sized cards? Or the shorter and narrower ones? Also, do you mean re-release the entire RotRL set (with expansions) or just a batch of the errated cards?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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I don't want to speak for Vic, but here's my understanding:
* An errata deck will be released for the base set
* As the expansions come out, cards will be accumulated for a second errata deck
* When that second errata deck is available, the first errata deck will be expanded to include both sets (probably at a slightly higher cost) so new purchasers don't need to buy two decks to replace the cards.
Based on past behavior, the card game itself won't be reprinted unless (A) Paizo sells out of it, and (B) they have strong reason to believe that a reprint would sell out in a reasonable amount of time.
For folks who miss the first AP, there's likely to be another, and I bet there's plenty of time to buy a set.
Again, that's all my understanding of the situation.
I think a release of a PDF quickly (with in reason of course) is a must. Print on demand? Less so.
Thanks for the lengthy discussion, Vic.
I would initially probably use the PDF versions since the printed version are going to be offsized, although if I'm totally honest I'll get the $8 set as well. Do you envision a time in the future when all the cards that are going to be corrected and get printed in the right size?
Thanks!
Do you envision a time in the future when all the cards that are going to be corrected and get printed in the right size?
I am first appreciative on everything Paizo is doing to rectify these issues. As a lot of companies would just let them go, thank you. But above is what I am wondering as well.
I could sleeve my cards, but I really want to fit them all in my box for storage and sleeved cards don't fit all to well. And don't want to be taking them in and out of my sleeves, so I am also wondering if there will be a time where the cards are going to corrected and printed on the right size.
The more I think about it, the more I'm turned off from playing the game at this point. Taking a brash approach to a customer concern and very rudely rubbing their noses in it with your unprofessional response and thinking that's an okay way to deal with things is garbage.
The topic was brought up multiple times on the forum here and the only responses you ever gave were curt. Then you have the audacity to claim that you are open for discussion when, in fact, there had been an attempt at discussion all along. It's no coincidence that this thread was started following the petition thread.
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I really hope they don't just go with the $8 option because there are so many votes here saying that would be good. I'd rather see a $3-4 option that doesn't include reprints just to clarify Blessing of the Gods and other cards that are fine as is, but some people had questions about. I just want the cards with actual corrections on them, not clarifications, as much to save trees and make things easier when switching them out as to save myself $5.
I like both the PDF and the POD solution (preferably the option with the both the fixes and clarifications). I'm surprised a POD option is even going to be offered, so kudos to Paizo.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I don't want to speak for Vic, but here's my understanding:
* An errata deck will be released for the base set
* As the expansions come out, cards will be accumulated for a second errata deck
* When that second errata deck is available, the first errata deck will be expanded to include both sets (probably at a slightly higher cost) so new purchasers don't need to buy two decks to replace the cards.
Correct.
I do not at this time foresee an option that includes printing only the updated cards, other than print-on-demand through DriveThru.
I appologize if this covered elsewhere but I do not feel as concerned with this issue but I did read that something would be issued as part of the subscription. If this is accurate, is there a way to stop that from happening as I do not feel it is necessary to get a reprint, and I certainly don't want to pay for one that I don't feel I need. I applaud Vic and the rest of Paizo for their willingness to handle this for those that feel it is important, I just don't want to be penalized when I'm not one of those people. Thanks.
Just wanted to say, I really appreciate the honest and frank discussion of why things would work and why they wouldn't. I wish it was done more!
I appologize if this covered elsewhere but I do not feel as concerned with this issue but I did read that something would be issued as part of the subscription. If this is accurate, is there a way to stop that from happening as I do not feel it is necessary to get a reprint, and I certainly don't want to pay for one that I don't feel I need. I applaud Vic and the rest of Paizo for their willingness to handle this for those that feel it is important, I just don't want to be penalized when I'm not one of those people. Thanks.
My guess is that it would be an "opt-in" item, at most. So I doubt you'd get it as a subscriber unless you specifically requested it.
Having said that, if you're ever looking to "skip" one or two items from a subscription, you just need to contact Customer Service (via forum, email or phone) before the item leaves the warehouse. Once that shipment has gone, you can resubscribe with the next item,
Thank you for clearing that up. It's good that everyone is working this out. Keep up the good work.
I do not at this time foresee an option that includes printing only the updated cards, other than print-on-demand through DriveThru.
Well, that's a bit disappointing to hear, but thank you for your honesty and attempts to solve the misprints.
I don't have an issue with DriveThru as a company, I just would like my errated cards printed on the same sized cardstock as the original cards at some point.
I would definitely go for an errata deck.
Honestly I thought something like that would happen and I would have shelled out $20 for it.
As so many others above me have said, the PDF is an excellent option no matter what other options are available. I personally would pay for the $8 POD option as well, mostly because my friends are tired of putting up with my weekly update meeting, but also because I love supporting support (I only hope I can be as incredible with support as you guys are in my own little game design attempts.)
I would pay for an errata deck. However, I would really appreciate the .pdf, FAQ and rulebook being updated as rules change.
I would also pay for a promo card collection set, because I don't really have the time to go to conventions and resellers have them at $25/per.
Regardless, the game is awesome. Thanks to your team for putting together a super-fun experience.
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I would pay for an errata deck. However, I would really appreciate the .pdf, FAQ and rulebook being updated as rules change.
I would also pay for a promo card collection set, because I don't really have the time to go to conventions and resellers have them at $25/per.
Regardless, the game is awesome. Thanks to your team for putting together a super-fun experience.
^^^^^^ this for me too.
I would pay for a promo card deck. As someone who doesn't live on the continent of North America I don't have the opportunity to make it to conventions.
Hmmm. I would very likely buy the POD option, no matter the number of cards in the deck, so long as the price was appropriate for the number of cards. Really, I'd start to rethink the purchase at about $12-$15 dollars, unless there were a lot of cards.
I do not think the PDF should be free. Even if it was only $1. This is something that is costing time and money to make and really is about customer convenience. I'm willing to pay to help make the cost a little less painful to Paizo.
Why? Because, most companies would count a FAQ as good. A few companies may do reprints, but only when the whole set warranted a reprint. That way prior owners could just update their deck then.
I really think this whole debate, though met with stress by many, is an example of good, no excellent, customer service, not poor as some have voiced.
--- My only concerns, and they are small, come from the little OCD voice in my head. I'd likely never fully use a PDF to print because I want the card backs to match as closely as possible. (I do not want to use card sleeves. I think the insert was designed great and want to use it.) The card size difference is really small and I'd like to think I could overlook it, but I would not be sure until they were actually in front of me. So, though it is a worry, I'd still buy them. If I used the PDFs as a print option would be if the card size of the POD bothered me. I'd print the PDF card faces only on a label paper of some sort and then adhere them to the faces of the errata cards. that way the backs are originals and the faces would be one big label rather than marked up or partially labelled cards. (I think I'd only do this on errata cards. Clarifications are what FAQs are for and I'd leave the cards as is.)
Errata deck and pdf options both sound good to me.
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I would pay for an errata deck. However, I would really appreciate the .pdf, FAQ and rulebook being updated as rules change.
I would also pay for a promo card collection set, because I don't really have the time to go to conventions and resellers have them at $25/per.
Regardless, the game is awesome. Thanks to your team for putting together a super-fun experience.
+1
1) Both. I'd want the PDF and POD.
2) 8$ Full Errata would be my choice.
Thank you for communicating the options you are considering with the fans, much appreciated.
EDIT: Looking forward to Rule-book becoming a Living Errata-ed Compendium of all things PACG.
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I probably wouldn't buy an errata deck. I'm already stretching to afford this game (don't get me wrong, it's worth it, but that doesn't change my financial situation). I'm perfectly capable of remembering the errata from the faq and I don't really have a problem relating that information to newcomers. As you say, Vic, most of the changes have no effect on gameplay. I just can't justify the cost for the handful of cards that are affected.
I don't sleeve my cards but I would happily accept the PDF solution. It's not that I would print them out, it's that a PDF would provide a superior visual reference to errata than a simple faq. But that's such a minor thing that I'm not certain it's worth the effort on your end, using the valuable time of those three employees. But if your determined to see it through, I will tell you that I'd very likely be willing to pitch in a dollar for the PDF, to help recoup the costs in man hours.
As an additional thought, I'd probably prefer seeing a PDF because they are easily alterable. As you say, there will *always* be errata. You might need to errata the errata. Then you'd have to wait for those subsequent changes to stack up and create another deck to fix the first one. That's a lot of trouble, both for you and us, to go through for something so intensely minor.
But that's just the way I see it. Most of the folks I talk to would prefer to pay out to have their cards *just so*. So probably both is the best option, based on my very, very, limited understanding.
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I'd wait until a couple of months after the entire Rise of the Runelords set is out to gather all necessary errata, then do a print run including all the cards that need to be updated, and if there are extra spots, add some desirable cards to encourage (and justify) its purchase, such as:
- A set of Promo cards!!!
- Cards that run short if certain character combos are picked
- A new character or two
- Blanks, or textless categorised cards to replace lost/damaged cards (eg. "Generic Ally" or "Weapon" with a picture and a blank text box)
Being a perfectionist, another print run is the only final solution to me. PDFs are great in the interim, but once the set is released in its entirety there should be a fix that is seamless.
I could certainly justify an additional expansion if it meant a complete and error-free set.
Edit: Paizo customer support is really showing it cares about its customers by doing this. I really hope they do an errata deck (with promos!!!) - that would be awesome.
I know I'm a bit late for this post; I hadn't seen it before and the recent replies put it back at the top of the list which brought it to my attention.
Vic, concerning the problem with the print on demand version being smaller cards (or costing a ton of time and money to make new a new template cutter), does the company happen to have a larger die than the cards you use?
If so, you could simply make an outline for the cards in addition to the card itself and have it printed on the larger card. Then those of us that that are sticklers for perfection can order that and then just use scissors or a hobby knife to cut the cards out and have exactly the right card size and scale. Also, those of us that aren't perfectionists can use scissors and get almost the right size and have almost no sign of a replacement card in the deck. I think this would work out better than it being a smaller card by default.
I think a lot of people would be okay with the smaller cards... until they actually had them shipped to them and put them in the decks, then when looking at the stacks, they'd always notice them, since they know they're there.
It's just an idea, and by no means a requirement, as most (including me) are fine with just the FAQ and Errata, but from a player standpoint, I'd rather have the option, even if it requires my own personal time and effort, to have proper sized cards instead of having to settle for something that's going to be somewhat obvious upon slight inspection.
The other option that came to mind as I was typing this is that maybe Paizo could have a kickstarter campaign for a print run to pay for the costs of the die and extra time by the printers to change it out. If the issue is indeed as large as some people are making it out to be, then there should be no shortage of funding from people that would love to have their cards fixed. Maybe Paizo could even include a second print of the rulebook in with the kickstarter as a longer-term idea or a stretch goal just in case it receives enough funding.
This way, if it makes it, then people are happy, and if it doesn't, at least Paizo tried.
Vic: Thank you so much for putting so much time and effort in order to fix this. Not all companies would do the same.
A slightly out of the box suggestion: are stickers worth considering? Something that sticks over the existing card, with the necessary corrections, and only for the errata that actually affect gameplay.
Not an ideal solution, and possibly not one to many people's liking, but I just thought I'd put it out there.
Vic: Thank you so much for putting so much time and effort in order to fix this. Not all companies would do the same.
A slightly out of the box suggestion: are stickers worth considering? Something that sticks over the existing card, with the necessary corrections, and only for the errata that actually affect gameplay.
Not an ideal solution, and possibly not one to many people's liking, but I just thought I'd put it out there.
I don't think stickers would be a good option because they'd interfere with shuffling without being sleeved. It'd be less invasive and troubling to simply write on the card with a marker and let it dry.
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I don't think stickers would be a good option because they'd interfere with shuffling without being sleeved. It'd be less invasive and troubling to simply write on the card with a marker and let it dry.Vic: Thank you so much for putting so much time and effort in order to fix this. Not all companies would do the same.
A slightly out of the box suggestion: are stickers worth considering? Something that sticks over the existing card, with the necessary corrections, and only for the errata that actually affect gameplay.
Not an ideal solution, and possibly not one to many people's liking, but I just thought I'd put it out there.
It's never been a problem for the prototypes and PnP games I've made using label paper stuck on playing cards.