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According to Sean K Reynolds WBL is both a guideline and a rule, but I guess paying someone from the designteam some respect is totally out these days.
I'm pretty sure that was something from the newly clarified guidelines on crafting from Ultimate Campaign, not some general rule.
I just don't see any way such an arbitrary rule could be enforced on a player and still maintain some kind of in-game realism. It's a good guideline when making a powerful NPC or for when you are creating a character at higher level for some reason, but the idea that a DM would tell a player how he can spend his gold is pretty off, other than from an in-game standpoint.
In other words, if the character goes into a town and wants to buy a specific magic item, the DM can certainly tell the player that no one in town has that item for sale ... that's certainly valid.
But the idea of a DM telling the player "yes, I know you have enough gold to enhance your weapon from a +1 up to a +4, but I'm not going to let you. Instead, you can go up to +2 and the rest of your gold has to be spent on armor of some sort because that's what the WPL chart says. Sorry, if you don't want to buy magic armor, I say you have to."
I know that's an extreme example, but you get the point. A player should have the right and freedom to do as he wishes for his character, as long as it's legal according to the rules and is appropriate for the campaign and game world. The DM should not be arbitrarily saying no just because, without a valid, in game reason.
To me, that would be like in real life if you or I decided to spend all the money we had on a huge house, even though it meant we would not have enough money to pay our bills or afford a decent car. Does doing something like that go against the recommended spending ratio most economists suggest (Approximately 40% of your income should go toward housing, or whatever it is)? Sure. Does that mean the government or some divine being will arbitrarily forbit you from doing it? Of course not.
The restriction on WBL that limits what you can spend on a single item is intended for new characters to emulate how experienced characters acquired and spent the wealth that they acquired over their careers. No sane adventurer would save up all his money to buy a single big item at a given future level -- he would save up enough to buy his next useful upgrade. A newly generated character knows that he will face no threats until the level at which he enters play -- a character who actually earned every level does not have that luxury.
Nothing in the WBL restrictions should apply to a character who gets a major windfall of cash after play starts.
Feat /Class ability wise I think you are OK or fine.
I would like to see you full wealth break down. Because that where I think you are over powered.
+10 weapon at level 15 really?:(
The other thing is I think you are pretty heavy with combat feats. So you sit do nonthing in most none combat encouters. To me that is borring.
Any one can build guy to do one thing well. But their is many aspect of the game beside just fighting. So if you sit there and nothing for 1/2 the game time to me that is raelly Boring.
So made a car that can go 200 miles per hour but can it turn? Go off road? ext.
If you are not having fun then ask to rebuild so it more balenced. I bet you have crafter in the party and you all the perfect items you need to help you out as well as having soild build.
What is the rest of the party like do they walk over combat as well?
If yes then GM need to rethink the encounters. Also you are at level 15 where rule start to fall apart balenced wise.
I agree with my DM that it is horrendously over powered damage, on par with that of a Fighter -- Archer Archetype, or a ranged Ranger vs his main favored enemy, but what I'm mainly concerned about is: is it all legal and correct?
So yes feat and class abitly wise it is correct, money wise it may be not. Reguardless you as the player feel it to powerfull for that game. So therefore it is broken because your not feeling challenged or having fun.
Well, that's what the Instant Enemy spell is for.
A more serious problem is that anything that protects against arrows renders you useless. Which is the main issue with a one-trick pony. As DE3 put it, "what a pony!" But like all one-trick ponies, it will be very easy for the GM to completely shut you down if he so chooses.
This.
You don't even need spells... even ordinary weather (high winds, storms penalize or make ranged attacks impossible; fog makes you unable to see your target) can screw this up.
Or, depending, close quarters combat in tight spaces.
Now, this doesn't mean the GM should make every fight take place in a wind tunnel, but it's not a foolproof build.
The only Thing I would question is the possession of a +10 Composite Bow. Its definitely outside of the Item Level for a lv15 character.Yeah the bow is waaaaaaaaaaay beyond WBLExactly. At level 15 your WBL should be about 240.000 gold. Calculating that about 25% should go to weapons, it should be below the 60.000 gp mark. If going for "But it's my main weapon, I don't need armor" etc than we could bump it up to 35-40% (in my humble opinion) you end up at 96.000 gold.
A "regular" +8 equivalent weapon adds +128.000 to your weapon, without counting base cost, masterwork, and impervious and adaptive.
Oh, I open the floor to the flame war on "WBL" but I as a DM adhere to it rather strictly every odd level, and it has helped the mood a lot, and even made some encounters eeasier because someone bought a Feather token coz it was funny, that eventually saved a(n important) life.
My take on that rule (the 25% business) is that if you are building an NPC or starting a character at high level, it is a guideline. However in this instance the player has leveled up from 1 to 15 and spent his money this way over time. Unless someone as GM feels it is fair to tell a player how they can spend their gold, there is nothing wrong with this. He earned the gold in the game, and he can spend it the way he likes.
According to Sean K Reynolds WBL is both a guideline and a rule, but I guess paying someone from the designteam some respect is totally out these days.I'm pretty sure that was something from the newly clarified guidelines on crafting from Ultimate Campaign, not some general rule.
Perhaps an arbitrary rule but here are what SKR had to say on the topic.
First of all the WBL level is intended only to be a guide and not a hard and fast rule.If the party pays 5,000 gp, the GM either remembers that for the rest of the campaign, or forgets it.
(A) If the GM remembers it and wants it to be a real cost, the GM has to subtract 5,000 gp from the WBL for the party until the end of the campaign.
(B) If the GM forgets it, then the GM either uses the WBL guidelines, or doesn't.
(B1) If the GM uses the WBL guidelines, then that 5,000 gp cost eventually gets corrected for with extra treasure, and therefore isn't a cost.
(B2) If the GM doesn't use the WBL guidelines, then the party may have a higher or lower WBL than what is expected, which means the 5,000 gp may be a trivial cost or a significant cost.That's the math.
I would never deny players treasure they earned because they were ahead of that the WBL says they "SHOULD" have or grant them extra treasure because they kept making foolish mistakes that caused characters to die excessively.So all monsters in your campaign provide the same amount of treasure per CR? You don't have some encounters that are low-treasure (like a pack of skeletons) and some that are high treasure (like an NPC or dragon)? Because unless you do this, some encounters will have more or less treasure than the average, and by balancing the distribution of those encounters, you keep the PCs at the appropriate WBL.
I am sorry, but this is a false argument.No, it isn't.
It is more intended on a guide of what wealth new characters should have when they are brought into an existing campaign.No, it's both: it's both a guide for determining if you need to throw some low- or high-treasure encounters at the party to balance out current WBL, AND it is an estimate for how much wealth a new character should have. It's right there in the book that it's both of these things—and the "how much for a character starting above 1st level" rule is after the "all PCs of equivalent level have roughly the same mount of treasure and magic items" rule.
And another quote from the same thread:
Ehhhh no.
Again, WBL is a guideline to help DMs who don't want to keep up with treasure distribution and if you are a DM that throws monsters exactly from the book at just the right CR. You don't have to use the WBL, I don't normally use it and my games run just fine. My players don't like to play in games where certain amounts of gear and treasure are expected. Oops I blew 2K, DM how about you throw an extra 2k my way.The rules say:
Nowhere does it say "WBL is a guideline," any more than it says "the CR system is a guideline for what power level of monsters you should throw at the PCs."
Just because you don't use the WBL table doesn't mean it's not a rule. Some people don't use XP, but it's still a rule. Just because the WBL table is flexible enough to allow for low-magic or high-magic campaigns as well as standard fantasy campaigns doesn't mean it's not a rule.
I know the quotes are taken out of context, but it’s still pretty clear what SKR has to say.
I should be clear, I think the 25% spent on X is a guideline. I consider WBL fairly sacrosanct since it does have strong CR repercussions.
It doesn't? I'm not so sure.
I agree with wealth by level rule but, all the rules are arbitrary.
We can all say what we think it should be but it still just our arbitrary point of view of rule.
On a diffent point how can any take SKR as rule expert... He think you need to make a attack roll with rope trick.
Tom S 820 wrote:
A????ok you lost me but I will ask clear smoke OR hazy a littel... Name one spell that you make a attack roll with that is not a weapon like spell.
clenched fist (and related spells)
produce flame
rope trick
any spell that requires you to make a melee touch attack against an opponent
Copy form SRD
Rope Trick
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered corn and a twisted loop of parchment)
Range touch
Target one touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the usual multiverse of extradimensional spaces. Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). The rope cannot be removed or hidden. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.
Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can't see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.
Point is any one can be wrong and most of us are more than once. So quoteing game arthors dose not allway mean they are right if was there would be no need for all PDF errata / problems edit threads on the board. There is normaly 2 or 3 theads with over 500 post of mistakes per hard back book.
I beleive every hard back book by 6th month after it printing has had a PDF errata.
If you look hard enough you will find game designer A say bah bah bah while game designer B say na na na and they both do not agree.
Just like some GM will it this way and the player say that way.
At the end of the day try to be fair and have fun it just a game.
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you could make it even worse with a one level sorcerer (the wild blooded archetype that gets spells based on wis)
the feat that adds half of your non monk levels as monk levels to your unarmed strike/AC
then take the arcane archer class as far as you want
then cast the spells gravity bow and enlarge person
you now have your damage with your non spell arrows increased by two size categories
and you have the added versatility of spellcasting and more importantly you have the incredibly potent combination of flight and ranged attack
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The whole WBL thing is kinda funny to think about in game.
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Fighter Bob walks over to his Wizard Buddy Jeff.
BOB: "Hey Jeff, when we get to town can you add another magical aura to my Sword... I was thinking of making it light on fire like you did to Ranger Ted's Sword!Jeff: "Sorry, Bob but I cant"
Bob: "Um... Why? I got the gold this adventure and Ted told me what you need to enchant it. We are going to be in town for awhile and I will even tip."
Jeff: "Yeah I know... but I cant"
Bob: ".... But I have the gold. You know how to do it. You have done it before. And we will have plenty of time. Why "cant" you"
Jeff: "Well your sword already has 5 levels of magic on it. Ted's only had 4.
Bob: "O, I see, so weapons are limited to 5 levels of magic."
Jeff: "Nope. Ten."
Bob: "O, So you cant enchant something past 5 levels of magic."
Jeff: "Yep. I can."
Bob: ".... Then what in the Nine Hells is the issue?"
Jeff: "You have 5 levels of magic on your sword."
Bob: "...But that isnt the max and you can increase it past that!"
Jeff: "Yeah but you cant wield a weapon with that much magic."
Bob: "Why?"
Jeff: "Cause.... Um.... I dont know. As the bloody invisble overloard eating cheetos over there!"
Kind of rediculous to limit someone on enchanting a single item if he wants to. He will sacrifice on other items and its his gold. I can understand using the rule when bringing in a new character above 1st level but for the guy who survived and saved... let him have his toy.
I've seen worse with Ranger at that level in the King Maker AP that I ran due to Favored Enemy and Quarry. The Spell Instant Enemy made all but 3 creature types his best Favored Enemy. So 15 BAB with +10 to hit and Damage on top of the high strength, magic items and feats he had.
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@OP
Didn't read the whole thread, but as my players grow higher in levels, I tend to use obstacles or whether effects to provide a penalty or two, but most of time, it only avoids the inevitable result of them crushing the NPCs or monsters. Still, the rain and wind penalties provide -8 or -4 if applied individually on ranged attacks.
There is many problems that archer can get on to. Soft cover and concealment are one of hardest at higher level. Without Improved Precise Shot, the archer would still tend to miss on 50% of attacks.
Your archer doesn't even have Precise Shot or Improved Precise shot. Without even figuring in the additional whether or terrain penalties it has alone -4 to hit targets in melee and targets also get maybe +4 soft cover bonus.
So, my suggestion is to your GM to check the combat rules.
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So my one character is a 15th level Zen Archer (Monk archetype, APG)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/zen-archerWeapon is a +5 Adaptive Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow
Attack / Damage Relevant feats:
Deadly Aim
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Improved CriticalMy to hit chart:
Bow: +5
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Dexterity: +7
Weapon Focus: +1
Point Blank Shot: +1
Deadly Aim: -3(Total +26 / +23 with deadly aim)
My to damage chart:
Bow: +5*
Strength: +3*
Weapon Spec: +2*
Point Blank Shot: +1*
Deadly Aim: +6*Total: +17
Ki Arrows lets me change my damage dice of my arrows to that of my unarmed damage (15th level monk + Monk's Robes means my unarmed damage is 2d10*)
Holy is +2d6
Means each arrow is 2d10+2d6+17
All of the above marked with "*" Is crit-multipled, no?
So on a crit my damage becomes 6d10+2d6+51 per attack.
Flurry of blows gives me the attacks:
+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
If I haste (via boots of speed) its instead:
+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
Perfect Strike makes me hitting on one of those two +15's pretty likely
So let's assume all but one attack hits, but no crits (pretty likely talking from experience)
I'm doing 12d10+12d6+102 per round.
I agree with my DM that it is horrendously over powered damage, on par with that of a Fighter -- Archer Archetype, or a ranged Ranger vs his main favored enemy, but what I'm mainly concerned about is: is it all legal and correct?
lol your gm is complaining about your zen archer? he should be happy that you didnt play an eldritch knight archer, same physical dpr + 9th level spells. but anyway you're not OP, your gm needs to learn how to stop archers is all.
heck even martials can do cheesy things with the right magic items if the DM is an idiot and allows it. Your point?
I think that some point last half of this thread... This guys monk Zen Archer is legal but, his Wealth by level is funky. So to quote you even martial can cheesy thing with the right magic items if the DM allows it.
Summarize: yes it is legal, but i woudld suggest you asking your dm if you should downtune your machine gun... sorry, bow :-p
To a level 6 equivalent...
My two cents
@OP
Didn't read the whole thread, but as my players grow higher in levels, I tend to use obstacles or whether effects to provide a penalty or two, but most of time, it only avoids the inevitable result of them crushing the NPCs or monsters. Still, the rain and wind penalties provide -8 or -4 if applied individually on ranged attacks.There is many problems that archer can get on to. Soft cover and concealment are one of hardest at higher level. Without Improved Precise Shot, the archer would still tend to miss on 50% of attacks.
Your archer doesn't even have Precise Shot or Improved Precise shot. Without even figuring in the additional whether or terrain penalties it has alone -4 to hit targets in melee and targets also get maybe +4 soft cover bonus.
So, my suggestion is to your GM to check the combat rules.
I was wondering about the lack of those two skills myself. His g.m. may not be enforcing those rules. I just started a ranger for RotRL with a monk in group, and those 16AC (you-know-whats) all over the place are hard a hell for me to hit with a monk kung-fuing it up. (I got PBS at lvl 1 forgetting about precise.) Got it at 2 though.
Any one else remember when this thread was still about the actual zen archer question the original poster asked?I know right? ;) I leave home for a couple of days and look what happens!
i know right
I'm playin in a gesualt campaign, an I got a lvl 4 character sorscerer/zen archer pretty much the only things I use my sorcerer stuff is my 1st lvl bloodline power smite, Mage armor after those are cast it's all bow all the timeNow when I get arcane archer in a few levels then the world shall fear me
Mu ha ha ha
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your archer is fine, your gm isnt well versed in how to allow BBEGs to survive encounters with archers.
any enemy that break line of sight to your archer negates your damage, they have tons of ways to accomplish that. it shouldnt be your responsibility as the player to hold back when the BBEGs should have basic defenses against LOS and LOE abilities.
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It should be your responsibility as a player to hold back sometimes, at least with the character creation.
Players tend to forget one thing that this is not a competition.
Why? A GM who is starting to GM is trying to get a grasp of game. It might provide no fun for him while a single player dominates every enocunter. In this cases, it's easy to break the game and broken game gives zero satisfaction.
I am far from saying that your character is broken. It's built fine. Fine feats, fine items, all good, but it is built around combat only. As such, I can still find a obstacle or two as a GM for you always, but higher level gameplay tends to get absurd and radical all in itself, from death attacks to suffocating your character with a single cave in.
It's hard to find balance above level 10.
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It's a vanilla Zen Archer build.
Zen Archer Handbook, by StreamoftheSky.
To those asking about my gear....
I will calculate your wealth :
=> Googles Of Night / Fogcutting Lenses (I switch them as needed) : 12000 + 8000 = 20000=> Headband of Wisdom +4 : 16000
=> Amulet Of Nat Armor + 3 : 18000
=> Cloak Of Etherealness : 55000
=> Monk's Robes : 13000
=> Vest Of Resistance +5 : 25000
=> Gloves Of Reconnaissance : 2000
=> Bracer's Of Armor +5 : 25000
=> Belt Of Dex & Con + 4 : 40000
=> Boots Of Speed : 12000
=> Ring Of Freedom Of Movement : 40000
=> Ring Of Protection +4 : 32000
=> +5 Adaptive, Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow (+8 enhancement, NOT +10 because apparently some of you can't read or add single digit numbers) : 128000 [+5 holy seeking] + 1000 [adaptative] + 3000 [impervious] = 132000
Total : 430000gp in wealth. At level 15, you should be around 240000gp. So, you have roughly twice the wealth for your level (179% exactly). No surprise you're "strong" then.
To those asking about my gear....Not surprising either, most importantly though aside from the Boots, Robe and Cloak....Everything else was treasure...
The point is, the class doesn't make you OP, it's the GM giving you items that did. Martials need gear more so than casters but when GM's start playing Monte Hall, this is what happens.
What did he expect was going to happen?
What he do should is cut your item wealth in half, not nerf the build. That would make it legal.
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Point is noted Malag, but what people seem to miss (including my DM for all his joking about it) is that I didn't purposefully 'break' or TRY to 'break' this character or ANY of my other characters. I had never played a monk before, never played an Archer before, and just thought the Zen Archer was a cool idea and ran with it. And what came out was a 200-250 DPR powerhouse lol
I never tried to say that you broke anything, but instead to go 'easy' on GM's sometimes. ;)
One of the main problems is enhancing already magical items. If you have a crafter, then everyone will just get a +1 weapon and enhance it so +10, makes it *way* cheaper then creating a new upgraded weapon every once in awhile, and also makes drops almost not important.
430,000 gp wealth for level 15 PC .... Is not broke build but broke GM. Turn off all magic crack. Welcome to super mega cheese muchkin Monty Hall level of magic. With the treasure horde of king Solomon and all the wealth of all Egypt, Rome, Greace, Aztecs, China and Japan combined. With wealth of that level of 187% of WBL you need to be facing CR 18 as a equal to your level and wealth and CR 19 as equal you + 1, CR 20 as you + 2, and lastly CR 21 as equal to you + 3. Then you may feel challenged. As it is like playing video game in god mode you can not be hurt. Your GM feels bored and so do you because all monster pop like Bubble wrap. That fun for minute or two but if your an adult it get boring quick.
430,000 gp wealth for level 15 PC .... Is not broke build but broke GM. Turn off all magic crack. Welcome to super mega cheese muchkin Monty Hall level of magic. With the treasure horde of king Solomon and all the wealth of all Egypt, Rome, Greace, Aztecs, China and Japan combined. With wealth of that level of 187% of WBL you need to be facing CR 18 as a equal to your level and wealth and CR 19 as equal you + 1, CR 20 as you + 2, and lastly CR 21 as equal to you + 3. Then you may feel challenged. As it is like playing video game in god mode you can not be hurt. Your GM feels bored and so do you because all monster pop like Bubble wrap. That fun for minute or two but if your an adult it get boring quick.
Which is nearly identical to how one of my DM"s has our campaigns play out. Over abundance of wealth and items, artifacts, and even intelligent items, and then later complains of broken characters. Don't give so much treasure and you make any build, especially martials work more towards their builds. Casters will be denied spell access due to money issues, rarity of spell, access to information.
That is how you quickly balance those types of games out. As for abilities, GM's need to use tactics with their enemies just as much, or more than their players. Otherwise your playing a 'punch bag' game to see who can kill who first faster. Not fun.
@ Eric: I would say to your GM that you didn't break your character, your GM did. By giving so much treasure, it allowed you to have better ( fil in the blank) than normally possible at your level. If he wants things from characters to balance out, cut back on treasure/access to things. And make it only as accessible and fair as would be allowed a party of level 15 characters. (I.e.: not facing CR 21 monsters because they can't anymore due to power levels.).
One of the problems that can exist with Zen Archer is that it basically optimizes your character for you. The archetype gives you everything you need to be an archer to the point your feats for leveling are almost superfluous. Now if everybody else builds optimized characters then obviously this is less of a problem. In a group that doesn't optimize then one optimized character, especially an archer, can quickly overshadow the others. You run into a similar problem with the Tetori.
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On a diffent point how can any take SKR as rule expert... He think you need to make a attack roll with rope trick.
Obviously I meant animate rope, not rope trick.
Attacking other posters (including Paizo staff) is against the rules of the Paizo.com message boards. Please reread and observe the Paizo.com message board rules.
Thanks.
It is fine for a GM to run a game with a lot more treasure than usual. But realistically he should be adjusting the CR of your encounters upwards if he does so.
Maybe it is worth auditing the other characters in the party as AVH has done above to see how treasure is spread around in the party. If everyone is in the same boat then I would definitely increase CR by at least +1.
On the other hand, if it turns out that you have ended up with more valuable treasure than other party members (which can happen if people are just picking items out of a pile) then you should probably let everyone else "catch up" for a little while and let them have all the treasure for a bit.
Peet
Seeing that at 15th level it is trivial to shutdown archery with spells I don't consider that large amount of damage all that over powered. If you are rolling through encounters with archery then the GM is letting you do that. I know when I was running a game and I had a player with a Ranger that was dishing out 200 damage a round at 16th level. I had to let the ranger have his fun. At the same time some encounter I shut down archery using casters and creative terrain.
Casters can shut down archery at higher levels, this is true. Terrain can annoy archers to some degree, but any terrain that hampers archers, hampers everyone.
The problem is, if every single caster prepares Fickle Winds, then it becomes quite obvious that the GM is custom tailoring encounters to spite the archer. Or if every encounter has cliffs and sharp turns and other things that block line of sight, then the Archer is going to quickly get very annoyed.
That's not good. Some casters could have Fickle Winds prepared, this is true, especially if they have foreknowledge of the party, or are monitoring them or something. But not every caster is going to have it.
So far, I've had one BBEG use Fickle Winds in a major encounter. I can't tell you how frustrated the archer in my party was. His character was almost completely useless. Fly + Fickle Winds + Globe of Invulnerability makes for a frustrated party. They didn't know that the Wizard had cast the Globe, and were frustrated until they tried an Area Dispel and got the Globe, which allowed them to Dispel the Fly and Winds and the BBEG finally went down.
You guys have interesting ideas of how much damage characters should be doing.
Just be careful man. At level 15, all it takes is one encounter with one BBEG that you kill in one round and the game is over. You might want to consider toning down your damage output if you want the game to continue.
Otherwise you will be looking at making a new 1st level character. . .