Eric Griffith's page

Eric Griffith wrote:

To those asking about my gear....

I will calculate your wealth :

=> Googles Of Night / Fogcutting Lenses (I switch them as needed) : 12000 + 8000 = 20000
=> Headband of Wisdom +4 : 16000
=> Amulet Of Nat Armor + 3 : 18000
=> Cloak Of Etherealness : 55000
=> Monk's Robes : 13000
=> Vest Of Resistance +5 : 25000
=> Gloves Of Reconnaissance : 2000
=> Bracer's Of Armor +5 : 25000
=> Belt Of Dex & Con + 4 : 40000
=> Boots Of Speed : 12000
=> Ring Of Freedom Of Movement : 40000
=> Ring Of Protection +4 : 32000
=> +5 Adaptive, Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow (+8 enhancement, NOT +10 because apparently some of you can't read or add single digit numbers) : 128000 [+5 holy seeking] + 1000 [adaptative] + 3000 [impervious] = 132000

Total : 430000gp in wealth. At level 15, you should be around 240000gp. So, you have roughly twice the wealth for your level (179% exactly). No surprise you're "strong" then.

Not surprising either, most importantly though aside from the Boots, Robe and Cloak....Everything else was treasure. Even the bow started out as a +1 or +2 Holy Composite Longbow from an encounter.

It should be your responsibility as a player to hold back sometimes, at least with the character creation.

Players tend to forget one thing that this is not a competition.
Why? A GM who is starting to GM is trying to get a grasp of game. It might provide no fun for him while a single player dominates every enocunter. In this cases, it's easy to break the game and broken game gives zero satisfaction.

I am far from saying that your character is broken. It's built fine. Fine feats, fine items, all good, but it is built around combat only. As such, I can still find a obstacle or two as a GM for you always, but higher level gameplay tends to get absurd and radical all in itself, from death attacks to suffocating your character with a single cave in.

It's hard to find balance above level 10.

Point is noted Malag, but what people seem to miss (including my DM for all his joking about it) is that I didn't purposefully 'break' or TRY to 'break' this character or ANY of my other characters. I had never played a monk before, never played an Archer before, and just thought the Zen Archer was a cool idea and ran with it. And what came out was a 200-250 DPR powerhouse lol

any enemy that break line of sight to your archer negates your damage, they have tons of ways to accomplish that. it shouldnt be your responsibility as the player to hold back when the BBEGs should have basic defenses against LOS and LOE abilities.

Actually with the Fogcutting Lenses, Seeking, and the Zen Archer's ki abilities to completely negate cover and concealment.... I'm pretty much rocking the Line Of Sight issue.

Eric Griffith wrote:

Marc Radle wrote:

Any one else remember when this thread was still about the actual zen archer question the original poster asked?

I know right? ;) I leave home for a couple of days and look what happens!

i know right

I'm playin in a gesualt campaign, an I got a lvl 4 character sorscerer/zen archer pretty much the only things I use my sorcerer stuff is my 1st lvl bloodline power smite, Mage armor after those are cast it's all bow all the time
Now when I get arcane archer in a few levels then the world shall fear me
Mu ha ha ha

Double check you want to go Arcane Archer. Zen Archer is NICE at high levels. Not saying don't do it, I've always wanted to do Arcane Archer myself haha, just make sure you're okay with giving up everything else the Zen Archer gets :P

The real problem here is that too many abilities/effects are all or nothing dependent on the die roll. What I'd really like to see—and maybe I'll work on this if no one else is doing it/has done it—would be a revamped spell list where all these save-or-suck spells had partial effects. (I realize that this might seem like gravy for a wizard who's already loaded up on SoS spells, but it could be accompanied either by additional rules to mitigate this boost or by a recommendation for responsible gaming.)

Also true, I burned through quite a few spells in last night's game that had zero effect because they saved. Eventually I just said 'screw it' and stood there with the Aura Of Menace (Supernatural ability, not spell version) up just so I was helping the party a bit in the fights.

To those asking about my gear....

Googles Of Night / Fogcutting Lenses (I switch them as needed)

Headband of Wisdom +4

Amulet Of Nat Armor + 3

Cloak Of Etherealness

Monk's Robes

Vest Of Resistance +5 (modified version of cloak, as per crafting rules)

Gloves Of Reconnaissance

Bracer's Of Armor +5

Belt Of Dex & Con + 4

Boots Of Speed

Ring Of Freedom Of Movement

Ring Of Protection +4

+5 Adaptive, Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow (+8 enhancement, NOT +10 because apparently some of you can't read or add single digit numbers)

Any one else remember when this thread was still about the actual zen archer question the original poster asked?

I know right? ;) I leave home for a couple of days and look what happens!

Malag wrote:

@OP

Your archer doesn't even have Precise Shot or Improved Precise shot. Without even figuring in the additional whether or terrain penalties it has alone -4 to hit targets in melee and targets also get maybe +4 soft cover bonus.

So, my suggestion is to your GM to check the combat rules.

I was wondering about the lack of those two skills myself. His g.m. may not be enforcing those rules. I just started a ranger for RotRL with a monk in group, and those 16AC (you-know-whats) all over the place are hard a hell for me to hit with a monk kung-fuing it up. (I got PBS at lvl 1 forgetting about precise.) Got it at 2 though.

I've got precise shot, its just not listed up there because it doesn't affect my everyday attack and damage.

Also Zen Archer can spend ki points to ignore all forms of cover and concealment, even to the extent of shooting around corners, so I ignored Improved Precise Shot and instead grabbed Seeking and Elven Accuracy.

This.

You don't even need spells... even ordinary weather (high winds, storms penalize or make ranged attacks impossible; fog makes you unable to see your target) can screw this up.

Or, depending, close quarters combat in tight spaces.

Now, this doesn't mean the GM should make every fight take place in a wind tunnel, but it's not a foolproof build.

Weather yes, that can screw me.

Close quarters is actually a non-issue-- Zen Archer doesn't provoke for using a bow in melee. I actually typically am on the front line next to or directly behind the paladin lol

You are 15th level.

Remind him that you can auto-kill if the enemy fails a fort save.

An equal level opponent is going to have 220 hit points and do 70 damage on a singe attack if it moves.

It is all about perspective.

That attack is a touch attack, though in 2 levels I can deliver it through an arrow lol

@eric, your numbers are slightly off for the attacks. For a zen archer they get to use their wisdom at 3rd level to attack when using a bow. And also, when using a flurry, they have their bab equal to their level (level 15=bab15) minus the -2 penalty for the TWF esque like flurry.

So base flurry: 13/13/8/8/3/3
+wisdom, +1 weapon focus +5 bow, point blank shot +1, -3 deadly aim, (+7 wisdom modifier minimum at 15th)
Total: +27/27/22/22/17/17... Or +24/24/19/19/14/14 with deadly aim.

GET TO use wisdom. Not HAVE TO. My wisdom is one modifier lower than my dex so I stick with my dex.

I'll preface this by saying I don't think the OP build or damage is overpowered as is, but I did have a question on the bow.

WBL use to have a 2nd rule, something about "no more than 50% on one item", is that rule still in PF? (I can't open the PRD from here to see if it carried from 3.5)

If so, and going off memory so this is all only IIRC, Level 15 is 240 or 250k, a +8(+) bow would be over that... at something like 125k for the base +8, then + the extras on the bow on top of that.

This campaign started at level 1, not 15. I didn't spend the entire allotment of my WBL on the bow, it gradually got better and better.

Heh ... you better hope your DM doesn't read this thread or you can bet every enemy from here on out will be casting fickle winds, wind wall etc ;)

Already saw it :P

how do you have 28 DC at level 13?

10 Base

Eric Griffith wrote:

Maybe it was a stronger than normal Glabrezu, I don't know. All I know is DM pulled out his 'fate die' he uses for win/lose saves and said he needed to roll at least an 8. Thankfully he rolled a like 3, but still.

Well it would have to be a stronger than normal one to need an 8. Another thing is that banish could've hit the other demon if he was of 14 HD or less(if you were level 13 I mean).

I...never actually noticed that Banish could do more than one creature till now o_O

the glabrezu have +11 will save. Witha DC of 28 he wil lned a 17 to saves, unless that was a stronger than normal glabrezu.

By the other hand, Banishment automatcally eliminate the outsider from the fight. Against a equal CR enemy to have 60%+ of changes of whining the fight with one action do not seems fun to me.

Wasn't just a glabrezu in the fight. Was a glabrezu, another demon, 2 wizards and one assassin type. We (5 person party that night) were all level 13 or 14.

Maybe it was a stronger than normal Glabrezu, I don't know. All I know is DM pulled out his 'fate die' he uses for win/lose saves and said he needed to roll at least an 8. Thankfully he rolled a like 3, but still.

Eric Griffith wrote:

Are they the most common defender though?

Well, to state another opinion, it hurts the PCs far more to fail a save or die than mook #12. Its also crazy anticlimactic. At level 1 you can have a color spray with a DC 15, 50% chance of an npc with a will save of 5 failing it.(which is generous imo!) I've seen whole rooms of foes cleared by a single color spray.

In the case of banishment, supposing 24 wisdom and no feats into it you can hit an outsider with a DC 23 will save at level 11. Hezrou demon have a will save of 9, Erodaemon of 12, Barbed Devil a less than amazing 8. Still in the defenders favor? If your level 8 you can hit 2 of those barbed devils, and with greater spell focus and an object that repulses them you can hit them with a DC 27. They need to roll a 19 to match the DC, 20 to go over it. Your almost guaranteed to remove at least one from battle.

So maybe its more the monster's the DM chooses? As I said above, we had a Glabrezu the other night who despite a DC 28 or 29 will save to avoid the Banishment (Holy symbol of a Ragathiel counted as an object he hated) the DM said his roll had to be a 8 or higher to make the save. And when the sorcerer in the party tries to do banishment I seriously just roll my eyes because it seems like a solid 75-80% of the monster making the save

Low level spells aren't meant to be used as save or loose / suck / die / whatever into the mid to late game. They're meant to be buffs and utilities. Adapt your spell list accordingly.

Fair enough. Lets go through the list then and we'll see, maybe I'm just using the wrong spells. "D)" denotes domain spell.

Domains: Destruction ---> Catastrophe, and Good ---> Archon.
Caster Level: 14
Wisdom Modifer: +8

Relevant Feats:
1) Spell Penetration
2) Greater Spell Penetration
3) Elven Spirit
4) Spell Focus -- Abjuration
5) Greater Spell Focus -- Abjuration

0
1) Purify Food and Drink
2) Detect Magic
3) Read Magic
4) Create Water

1
1) Bless
2) Detect Evil
3) Air Bubble
4) Doom
5) Entropic Shield
6) Shield of Faith

D) Divine Favor (or True Strike)

2
1) Grace
2) Resist Energy
3) Bull's Strength
4) Spear Of Purity
5) Spear Of Purity
6) Spear Of Purity

D) Gust Of Wind (or Align Weapon)

3
1) Magic Circle vs Evil
2) Chain Of Perdition
3) Resist Energy Communal
4) Sacred Bond
5) Invisibility Purge
6) Magic Vestment

D) Prayer (or Call Lightning)

4
1) Tongues
2) Dimensional Anchor
3) Freedom Of Movement
4) Holy Smite
5) Holy Smite
6) Holy Smite

D) Holy Smite (or Inflict Critical)

5
1) Breath Of Life
2) Flame Strike
3) True Seeing
4) Spell Resistence

D) Dispel Evil (Or Shout)

6
1) Banishment
2) Banishment
3) Greater Dispel Magic
4) Heal

D) Harm (Or Planar Ally -- Archon only)

7
1) Holy Word
2) Destruction
3) Greater Restoration

D) Holy Word (or Control Weather)

It's supposed to be weighted in the defender's favor. That's why resistance bonuses are so cheap compared to stat bonuses. That's because the most common defender is the PC.

Are they the most common defender though? Maybe it just varies based upon the DM and group but to me (playing for 7yrs with the same DM) it seems like the monsters are the ones usually having to make spell saves and they typically have bonuses where its "they need to roll at least a 6" and it just comes off like "And I try...why?"

I LOVE my cleric, don't get me wrong. Clerics are quickly becoming my favorite class but it feels like even with being greater spell-focused to the spell school I use the most (abjuration-- banishment, dismissal, dispel ______) my DC's are just pathetically easy for the monsters to make.

Your damage looks fine--pretty much where I'd expect an end game archer to be. As someone mentioned, a core only fighter archer was rocking about 275 DPR at 20th, so you're doing great.

However, I want to point out that spending your Ki to make your arrows deal unnarmed damage is always worse than spending that ki to make another attack.

We weren't sure if +Attack from Ki and +Attack from haste would stack, and instead of having that argument with my DM I just decided to take the other damage

Consider being on the receiving end of spells based on those save DCs. Does that sound fair to you? How about one targeting your weak saves? Don't be too quick to want your spellcaster's offenses to be improved unless you're quite happy when you're the target.

Oh trust me I have considered being on the receiving end, I've seen entire encounters in our games break because we were ripping through saves like they were nothing. Even if my change alone doesn't "fix" it, it definitely seems like there's a problem with save progression in pathfinder.

The formula is

10 + modifier + level + misc.

the 10 is static. The modifier goes up slowly. The level caps. and "misc" rarely is higher than a +2.

Let's assume that the 10 was chosen because it represents "half way" or "50%" on the d20 roll.

So we have:

Modifier + level + misc bonuses

going up against

Ever increasing base saves + modifier + magical bonus + racial bonuses + misc bonuses.

Thats a weighted system that HEAVILY favors the defender and that leads to a situation at higher levels where the rule of thumb for casters is "Don't even bother reading what happens if they fail the save, because it will probably only happen if they roll a 1 or a 2."

If your damage is 'on par with that of a Fighter-Archer or Archery Ranger', does that mean he thinks those are also overpowered? Or does he just think that for some reason you have to be worse than them?

I haven't done the math specifically for the fighter Archer, I just know that since he's the only other class with access to the Weapon Spec feats (plus the class bonuses to damage and to hit) he is the only one that could come CLOSE to my damage output.

The archery ranger vs his favored enemy is reasoned away with the fact that his damage only becomes ridiculous WHEN fighting that ONE enemy type. Its not constant. My damage is CONSTANT and CONSISTENT.

The only Thing I would question is the possession of a +10 Composite Bow. Its definitely outside of the Item Level for a lv15 character. But nevertheless, that is the DM's concern, as to the rules, they are all fair provided you have all the Feat pre-requisites you needed to have those abilities. Damage is appropriate for the weapon/level. You are a one trick pony, but man what a pony!!!

+8, not +10. Adaptive and Imperverious are static cost enhancements, not +1's. As to the cost... the ONLY thing I have to spend money on is my bow. I don't need armor (ignoring bracers of armor) or shields or other weapons. With the bumps from the monk level and adding my wisdom to my AC I don't even bother upping my Natural armor and rings of protection, I just wait till we find upgrades.

I don't see how they are in the winning position as is. I pretty much assume all of my 1st through 3rd level spells, as a cleric, have a 5% chance of working (they have to roll a 1) 5th through 7th (all I have access to at this point) the mobs typically have to roll a 7 or lower to fail. Which is unfortunate because while some lower level spells have more powerful equivalents, not all do.

Look at Spear Of Purity, Searing Light, and Holy Smite-- all spells that are "iconic cleric spells" for damage...and yet their saves are pitifully easy to make.

Banishment especially-- despite being at a +4 bonus for having something the creature hates, and it being a +2 from spell focus... the Glabrazu we were fighting still had to roll a 8 or lower for it to work. That means if it was the sorcerer in our party doing the banishment, the same level as me, the Glabrazu would have had to roll a 2 or 3 to fail-- basically a guaranteed success.

Scratch that last line. "Full" saves are indeed 3 higher, but Low saves are actually 6 lower. But that can be offset by the feats that bump your saves by 2.

So my one character is a 15th level Zen Archer (Monk archetype, APG)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/zen-archer

Weapon is a +5 Adaptive Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow

Attack / Damage Relevant feats:

Deadly Aim
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical

My to hit chart:

Bow: +5
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Dexterity: +7
Weapon Focus: +1
Point Blank Shot: +1
Deadly Aim: -3

(Total +26 / +23 with deadly aim)

My to damage chart:

Bow: +5*
Strength: +3*
Weapon Spec: +2*
Point Blank Shot: +1*
Deadly Aim: +6*

Total: +17

Ki Arrows lets me change my damage dice of my arrows to that of my unarmed damage (15th level monk + Monk's Robes means my unarmed damage is 2d10*)

Holy is +2d6

Means each arrow is 2d10+2d6+17

All of the above marked with "*" Is crit-multipled, no?

So on a crit my damage becomes 6d10+2d6+51 per attack.

Flurry of blows gives me the attacks:

+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15

If I haste (via boots of speed) its instead:

+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15

Perfect Strike makes me hitting on one of those two +15's pretty likely

So let's assume all but one attack hits, but no crits (pretty likely talking from experience)

I'm doing 12d10+12d6+102 per round.

I agree with my DM that it is horrendously over powered damage, on par with that of a Fighter -- Archer Archetype, or a ranged Ranger vs his main favored enemy, but what I'm mainly concerned about is: is it all legal and correct?

Greetings all. After going through with my cleric in a few high-ish (15th level) games lately I've come to realize something: Saves absolutely suck for casters longterm.

This is the current formula for save DC's is:

10 + caster modifier + spell level + misc modifiers.

The formula I'm proposing is:

10 + 1/4 caster level + caster modifier + spell level + misc modifiers.

For the caster let's assume my cleric at 20th level, with a 30 wisdom. Non-spell-focus spell.

Old DC's ---> New DC's

1st Level: 21 ---> 26
2nd Level: 22 ---> 27
3rd Level: 23 ---> 28
4th Level: 24 ---> 29
5th Level: 25 ---> 30
6th Level: 26 ---> 31
7th Level: 27 ---> 32
8th Level: 28 ---> 33
9th Level: 29 ---> 34

For the defender of that affect lets assume my 15th level monk raised to 20th level. He's got a +6 in all save stats since Con, Wisdom and Dex are all important to monks with a +5 cloak of resistance. D20 + 23

What number does he need to roll to save? (Assume 1 auto-fails)
Old DC's ---> New DC's

1st Level: 2 ---> 3
2nd Level: 2 ---> 4
3rd Level: 2 ---> 5
4th Level: 2 ---> 6
5th Level: 3 ---> 7
6th Level: 4 ---> 8
7th Level: 5 ---> 9
8th Level: 6 ---> 10
9th Level: 7 ---> 11

My goal with this new formula was to allow for some lower spells to remain at least PARTIALLY viable at higher levels.

Monk's are 'medium' saves. "Full" saves are +3 higher, "Low" saves are -3 lower. So the numbers still work fairly well for those classes that are not middle of the road.

Thoughts? Comments?