First, there'd need to be large-scale alliances, or empires. World wars happen when both sides taken together will involve a majority of countries. So maybe something that can tie together lots of nations, say all the Azlanti-descended ones (Cheliax, Taldor and others); maybe the return of Aroden to unity Azlanti-descended human nations and groups, then those becoming opposed by a motley "last alliance" of everyone who isn't a human who self-identifies as an Azlanti heritor?
The return of the runelords or XIn
Cheliax aggression spurring conflict between Andora, Taldor with Qadira looking to pick up the pieces.
Arguably, the World Wound is already a worlds war
The return of Tar-Baphon
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First, there'd need to be large-scale alliances, or empires.
Pretty much this. Golarion isn't interconnected enough to have a world war. Even the biggest powers (Kelesh, Cheliax, and Lingshen) have great difficulty projecting power beyond their respective continents of Casmaron, Avistan, and Tian Xia. Of those three only Cheliax maintains an alliance system that extends beyond its home continent, in the form of colonies on Arcadia.
It is, however, possible to talk about an Avistani or Inner Sea General War, on the order of the Napoleonic Wars in Europe, or a Tien General War on the order of the Warlord Era. If we had maps and gazetteers of Casmaron, southern Garund, Arcadia, and Sarusan, it might be possible to talk of general wars in those regions, but we don't, so let's just talk about Avistan/the Inner Sea and Tian Xia.
As Analysis points out, world wars require more than big powers; they require power blocs. This applies to continental general wars as well. In the Inner Sea the biggest and most formally established power bloc consists of Cheliax, Nidal and Isger, the latter two being, at least formally, vassals or tributary states of the former. To this bloc we can probably append Korvosa as well without too much trouble. If Isger gets too embroiled in any general war, Druma will probably get involved on its side in order to protect its investments, probably after a long period of neutrality. No other power bloc in the Inner Sea is as coherent as the one around Cheliax, but there are hints in Elves of Golarion of an embryonic Almas-Iadara axis and both Andoran and Kyonin share good relations with the Five Kings Mountains, which in turn has good relations with Druma. It really is true, at least as far as their neighbors go; everybody loves the Dwarves. Considering these countries a bloc is, however, problematic as both the Dwarves and the Elves are more or less isolationist.
No other power in the Inner Sea seems to be involved in bloc politics as such, being mostly occupied with their own affairs or pursuing their own goals. Molthune and Nirmathas are bound in their own simmering conflict, as are Taldor and Qadira and Mendev and the Worldwound. They'd have to be drawn in. Razmiran is locked in similar low-intensity conflicts with Kyonin and Ustalav, and this might be a theater where a general war could expand, with Razmiran associating itself with the Chelish bloc and Ustalav with the Andoren (though the latter is doubtful, or at least complex, due to the weakness of central authority in the country). Galt might make good on their propaganda and invade Andoran, though again the lack of central authority will hamper their effort. Rahadoum might try to take back its lost land and open the Arch of Aroden once Cheliax is distracted, and the Shackles pirates (though not Sargava itself; it's too far away and too weak in terms of power-projection) might make a similar opportunistic move against the Chelish threat. Magnimar might bestir itself against Korvosa, and could likely carry the Shoanti and Elves of Varisia with it. None of the other powers, however, will find it in their interests to be drawn in, however, and none of the blocs will find it in their interest to draw them in. Taldor, for instance, has no interest in turning its back on Qadira in order to fight other people's wars even if Galt enters the war, and indeed would probably be delighted to see its daughter nations bleeding themselves white. On the other hand, nobody would be stupid enough to try and get help from Mendev and risk unleashing the Worldwound or, Iomedae forbid, try and get help from the Worldwound itself!
To sum up, here are what I feel could be the "sides" of an Inner Sea general war sparked through conventional means:
Cheliax
Isger
Nidal
Korvosa
Likely Associated Powers (after varying periods of neutrality)
Galt
Razmiran (only if Kyonin enters the war for the Sellen Powers)
Druma
The Sellen Powers
Andoran
Likely Associated Powers (after varying periods of neutrality)
Five Kings Mountains (if Druma enters the war for the Arcadian Powers before the Dwarves enter the war, their own entry becomes much less likely)
Kyonin
Magnimar
Rahadoum
Shackles Pirates
Shoanti
This does not end well for the Sellen Powers. At all. So let's be sporting and even the odds. Conveniently, we can provide ourselves a spark at the same time. Let's say Andoran manages to gain an undue - from the point of view of Cheliax but neither Taldor nor Qadira nor Osirion nor Absalom itself - influence in Absalom and the Chelaxians use this as a cassus belli. Absalom is, of course, incensed by another nation daring to dictate its sovereignty for it, and fearful of the implicit threat of becoming a Chelaxian protectorate should they be the victors, so they ally with Andoran out of convenience. This scenario gives us the following sides:
Cheliax
Isger
Nidal
Korvosa
Likely Associated Powers (after varying periods of neutrality)
Galt
Razmiran (only if Kyonin enters the war for the Sellen Powers)
Druma
The Sellen Powers
Absalom
Andoran
Likely Associated Powers (after varying periods of neutrality)
Five Kings Mountains (if Druma enters the war for the Arcadian Powers before the Dwarves enter the war, their own entry becomes much less likely)
Kyonin
Magnimar
Rahadoum
Shackles Pirates
Shoanti
There we go, much better. I'll be looking at a Tien General War in a later post.
Possibly a vast army from the East. If Qadira successfully annexed Taldor and then pressed into Andoran and Galt, I could see some 'enemy of my enemy' alliances springing up. Another possibility would be a sudden surge in Cheliax's power (whether politic, economic or magical).
Essentially, I think it would have to be some unexpected event which would seriously throw the current balance of power out of whack.
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Volume 5 of the Pathfinder Chronicles!
Serpent's Skull Spoiler (but also an answer)
I'm serious. Simple and to the point.
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I agree with the need for power blocks but I think that it would fall to a larger more strained Cheliax vs taldor/andoran. it would most likley turn from a two way war of agression into a four way world war. I would break it down into two sides to start, followed by opportunistic back stabbing later on.
Cheliax would be the aggressors striking at the Andoran border. they would do so with a force that would probably roll over half of Andoran. Taldor would see no alternative but to stop the expansion of Cheliax and come to the aid of Andorans. Qadira would seize the opportunity to strike the southern border of Taldor thus allowing the Andorans navy to dispense righteous freedom justice on the fleets of Qadira.
That will happen fast. weeks to months of serious conflict. the Cheliax will employ their colonies to bring more conscripts from the shackles and the mwangi expanse. this will force Taldor agents to employ pirates to stop them (even though I'm sure the pirates would just do it for themselves). Qadira will beat the Taldor price at some point.
A majority of the north will care less until the Cheliax are convinced they are going to deliver a killing blow and coax the northern less nice nations into the war to help finish off the Andoran/Taldor alliance. Galt has a 50/50 chance of seeing the Massive Beast that Cheliax would have become as a threat... or they will see northern Andoran as ripe for the picking. I expect civil war to turn it inside out again.
Taldor will reach out to Tian first. Tian will probably opt to stay out of the war, but lets say they roll in for fun... they split up two forces land and sea (or they use portals) assuming they send 60% by sea, 30% over the top of the world and secure what they can of the north. The elite 10% will portal into Taldor.
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Sorry for a double post. The end result of Golarion WW1 is a war torn wasteland where the western half of Andoran used to be and southern Taldor is now part of Qadira. Andoran gets eaten by Taldor in order to hold a unified front.
The Chelish colonies are ransacked and Mwangi jungle lords push civilization back a bit.
Pirates are rich as all hell, while the Tian hold the top of the world.
Galt continues to be in shambles.
Cheliax shows the signs of over expansion (this will lead to GWW2).
The north will blame Cheliax for the Tian invasion.
In summation, the winners are Taldor, Qadira, Tian, Mwangi, Pirates and Privateers.
The losers are the North, Andoran and Cheliax.
Cheliax will break even on the exchanges but ultimately will reveal its weaknesses to supply and support its massive empire.
GWW2 will be started by Taldoran and Tian alpha striking Qadira and wiping it off the map. Cheliax will be slow to respond and sans a two front war and the Qadira Purse the Taldoran Tian alliance will win.
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Except there's no nation called Tian - Tian Xia is a continent split up into 23 different nations (and some of those are split even further - also, invading across the North Pole seems stupid, even in a high-magic world).
I'm also not sure which Mwangi colonies of Cheliax you're talking about - Sargava, is very much a former colony and would most likely side with Cheliax's enemies.
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See this old thread: Cheliax at war- a World War event in Golarion
I'm running my first campaign that'll get to high levels, and my players are wanting to go crazy epic/mythic. I've got the notion in my head for a scenario where the gods of Golarion have been limited in direct influence by a shield covering the world. The rediscovery of elf gate creation in the Second Darkness campaign leads to modified elf gates that function as permanent Gate spells, allowing the gods to bypass the shield and materialize physically again. Nations build a gate for their most-worshiped deity, and gods frustrated with countless millennia of squabbling descend to create their ideal world. God-powered world war begins almost immediately.
I'm biting off way too much, but you can't get too much more incendiary a situation than that.
*stuff*
I agree about the power blocks you described. I also agree with Zimmerwald that the war would only envelop the Inner Sea region instead of the world. Tian Xia barely has any connections to Avistan.
You forgot about the smaller nations, though.
Now that Cheliax has bigger issues, Molthune could try to conquer parts of Isger for a change (provided they can get through the mountain range separating the two countries). Alternatively, it presses refugees into the army and proves that hard-heads never learn by invading Nirmathas yet again.
Druma probably only secures its borders unless attacked directly, selling mercenaries and weapons to any side. Rule #34 of Acquisition: War is good for business. It has to deal with streams of refugees as well, moreso because its border with Nidal and Andoran is longer.
Mercenary companies from the High King Mountains might fight on Taldor's side.
The Linnorm Kings start raiding Cheliax and Nidal more frequently again.
Rahadoum gathers a fleet and sails south to take over Sargava. I don't know how the pirates are going to react to the attempt. It might depend on how deeply they are involved in disrupting Chelaxian shipping. Or its leaders show signs of mental derangement and try to take a bite out of Cheliax.
Garund stays mostly quiet otherwise. Katapeshi slave takers might try to profit from the war by offering to take on refugees and then selling them again. Or they, too, just ramp up raiding along Avistan's coast.
The other nations keep out of the conflict unless directly involved somehow. I don't know how feasible it would be for Qadira to go through Galt to invade Taldor from the north, but it's possible, I guess. Likewise, Razmiran could have a try at Molthune, altough that doesn't seem to be Razmir's style.
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Pretty much this. Golarion isn't interconnected enough to have a world war. Even the biggest powers (Kelesh, Cheliax, and Lingshen) have great difficulty projecting power beyond their respective continents of Casmaron, Avistan, and Tian Xia. Of those three only Cheliax maintains an alliance system that extends beyond its home continent, in the form of colonies on Arcadia.
I'd like to point out that, despite the title of World War, both of the World Wars were very Europe-centric. There was some spillover into Africa, but really only because both sides had colonies there. Even WWII's Pacific Theater was really more Japan vs the USA, instead of the Axis vs the Allies.
My point? I don't think that you have to have the Golarion "World War" extend much beyond the Inner Sea region...if enough different parties are involved, I think it qualifies.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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In a homebrew campaign, wherein the timeline has been advanced 30 years, I have Golarion embroiled in a "World War" style scenario.
It began from the events of Council of Thieves, where the players opted to go against House Thrune. They, through the use of a scroll of Earthquake and Storm of Vengeance, were able to lay waste to the fleet that arrives in Westcrown towards that APs end, igniting a war they had planned to enter.
The Children of Westcrown had sought allies for this war during the campaign, seeking diplomatic ties with Andoran and also with Rahadoum across the Inner Sea. Rahadoum was one of the critical pieces, as the Children of Westcrown (known as Knights of the Bleeding Rose in my version of Council of Thieves, as the PCs aligned with the goddess Milani for their cause) promised to liberate the northern tip of Rahadoum from Chelish occupation in return for their military aid (which Rahadoum was keen on, as it fit their modus operandi to topple a theocratic regime.
Further details on how I played out this scenario can be found here.
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I'd like to point out that, despite the title of World War, both of the World Wars were very Europe-centric. There was some spillover into Africa, but really only because both sides had colonies there. Even WWII's Pacific Theater was really more Japan vs the USA, instead of the Axis vs the Allies.
The Pacific Theater of World War II was an outgrowth of the preexisting Second Sino-Japanese War and China engaged more Japanese forces and suffered more battlefield deaths than any other United Nations power in theater so no, it was not Japan/USA centric at all. It involved combatants from - from north to south - the USSR, the USA, Manchukuo, Mengkukuo, Mongolia, China (nationalist and communist), the Philippines, Indochina, India, Thailand, Malaya, Indonesia, and Australia, plus Britain, France, and the Netherlands. It took place over an area about one eighth the size of the Earth's surface, about double the size of the Inner Sea Region; the map in the Inner Sea World Guide covers something like one sixteenth of Golarion's surface. It would dwarf in scope any conventional (that is, not started by something like Tar Baphton rising again) hypothetical Inner Sea general war by itself leaving aside the European and African theaters, especially since the northern powers of Avistan and most of the powers of Garund have very little reason to get involved. The only exception is time; wars on Golarion tend to take place on sixteenth-century timescales rather than twentieth-century ones for some reason.
Likewise, there is a reason World War I ended up being called such, and it wasn't just because Europeans were full of themselves. The active and hotly contested fronts in Mesopotamia, Palestine, and the Caucasus - all Asian and thus non-European territories - claimed tens of thousands of lives and led to changes in territory that were extremely impactful on future events. The British and Russians basically partitioned Iran between them to prevent the Central Powers from bribing them into attacking Central Asia or India (they would repeat this feat even more completely in World War II). Of course you're right that it was a World War in part because all the important combatant powers were colonial powers...but that is not a coincidence. It was a war for the partition of the world. Golarion simply cannot host such a conflict because as I pointed out, very few powers are world powers. There are great regional powers, certainly, and power blocs in various stages of development, but none of these powers - barring Cheliax in certain very exceptional circumstances - can project power beyond its immediate vicinity for any sustained length of time.
My point? I don't think that you have to have the Golarion "World War" extend much beyond the Inner Sea region...if enough different parties are involved, I think it qualifies.
And my point is that the Inner Sea isn't anywhere near the whole world, and it isn't even important enough to draw the rest of the world into its squabbles the way Europe could in the first part of the twentieth century on Earth. A general war there would be destructive. It might even seem apocalyptic to the people living through it. But the rest of the world, and there's a lot of "rest", doesn't have much reason to care.
Here was my take, Taldor is the spark that would start it.
Dreaming of Taldor 4715 Campaign
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If Qadira becomes the tip of the spear of an invasion from Casmaron / Greater Kel that sweeps over Osirion, Katapesh and / or Taldor in a matter of months, leaving Thuvia, Nex, Geb, Andoran, etc. all scrambling to stem the flood of refugees from overrun lands, while also building up their own defenses, that could get pretty world-war-ish.
If Qadira becomes the tip of the spear of an invasion from Casmaron / Greater Kel that sweeps over Osirion, Katapesh and / or Taldor in a matter of months, leaving Thuvia, Nex, Geb, Andoran, etc. all scrambling to stem the flood of refugees from overrun lands, while also building up their own defenses, that could get pretty world-war-ish.
This.
Combine with Vudra coming in for extra fun.
Personaly a World War in Golarion would start with the demonic forces of the World Wound breaking free.
After they gobble up serveral nations the remainder would for a desparate alliance to stem the tide. Nastions with ties to other continents will call on them...though they would not have as much impact on the war.
After the demons are defeated...things get interesting as nations are weakened to the point where they inviting for conquest or reclaimination.
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Pretty much this. Golarion isn't interconnected enough to have a world war. Even the biggest powers (Kelesh, Cheliax, and Lingshen) have great difficulty projecting power beyond their respective continents of Casmaron, Avistan, and Tian Xia. Of those three only Cheliax maintains an alliance system that extends beyond its home continent, in the form of colonies on Arcadia.I'd like to point out that, despite the title of World War, both of the World Wars were very Europe-centric. There was some spillover into Africa, but really only because both sides had colonies there. Even WWII's Pacific Theater was really more Japan vs the USA, instead of the Axis vs the Allies.
My point? I don't think that you have to have the Golarion "World War" extend much beyond the Inner Sea region...if enough different parties are involved, I think it qualifies.
You do know you just insulted a lot of people.... And dismissed the millions of victims of Japanese aggression.
I suggest you take a look at the history of China, Burma, Vietnam, The Dutch East Indies (Indonesia), India, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Malaya, East Timor, The Philippines, New Guinea, The French and British colonies in the Pacific and the service personel from those countries that gave their lives, as well as the USSR, and their participation in WWII in the Pacific.
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After reading this thread I really want to play RISK: golarion edition lol
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I like to think of a unified front in Garund, under a not-missing Nex who has since become good friends with his ghost neighbor Geb (much to the ruin of Alkenstar). The Garundi then proceed to magically repair the Arch of Aroden, and sweep across Cheliax like a plague. As the Garundi threaten the doors of Varisia and Andoran, the Padishah Emperor personally leads his million horse army across the Taldan border, claiming Avistan is now, and has always been His.
The rest of Avistan bands together in an uneasy alliance, with the three way battle decimating Andoran and Absalom. The Avistanis eventually have their backs against Lake Encarthen before something crazy happens like Tar-Baph waking, Razmir revealing that he is just an alignment shifted Aroden, one of the 3 or 4 still hidden Runelords rises to lead the armies (Alanzist or Xandergul make good options), Treerazer decides eating horses gets him back to the Abyss just as easy, a Spawn emerges, or some other major event occurs to broker a respite or turn the tides.
First of all, food logistics aren't a problem; just create a couple command-word activated Create Food and Water items, and you can feed an army... at least until a ninja steals them.
The real problem with a Golarian World War is that it will continue exactly until some high-level wizard pokes her head out of her private demi-plane and shouts "Oi you kids! Stop with the racket!" and some high-level cleric shoots back "Make me!", and then it's all about the spellcasters.
War in a D&D world isn't going to resemble a 16th century war at all, being more like a combination of W.W.II and modern terrorist operations. Even a mid- level wizard can wreck an army witha few midnight scry/ teleport/cloudkill attacks, and high-level spellcasters can destroy cities.
With armies being just fodder for the local necromancer, war would consist of a series of lightning-quick raids against important infrastructure; visible effects would involve cities and fleets being destroyed, while the real action would be the game of teleport tag where each side tries to catch the other side's high-level spellcasters off guard. The nation that runs out of spellcasters first loses.
But hey, you want a real world war? How about this? A necromancer decides to wraith bomb a major city. A couple months later, the shattered remnants of the inner sea armies are fighting a desperate rear-guard action to allow the last few refugee ships to embark overseas. Of course that's more of a "World War W" scenario.
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Here's my idea for a World War scenario. Queen Abrogail II of Cheliax quite simply wants to become a God, and following the traditions of another great Cheliaxian woman-turned-Goddess (Iomedae) she wishes to take the test of Starstone. However, she wants have access to the Star Stone without having to go to the trouble of actually taking the test and risking death. Therefore, she wishes to conquer Absalom in order to gain access to the Cathedral of Starstone.
Not being an idiot, she realizes that not only is Absalom's navy and defense forces a powerful deterrent, but many other inner-sea Avistan powers also pose a threat to her, particularly the crumbling (but still very powerful) Empire of Taldor and the nascent imperial Republic of Andoran.
She thus decides to instigate a war between Galt and Andoran, and between the Padishah Empire of Kelesh and Taldor. During the ensuing chaos, she will have the chance to send the combined forces of Cheliax, Nidal and Isger against Absalom. Nidalese infiltrators will work to disarm and open up Absalom's many layers of defense while Cheliaxian summoners will bring in regiments of powerful devils to obliterate any opposition on the ground. The most powerful summoners will conjure several powerful Horned Devils to set Absalom's navy ablaze. Levies from Cheliax and Isger numbering in the tens of thousands of soldiers will disembark on the land and follow the Infernal Vanguard left by the Devils, immediately moving to take every section of the city. Hell Knights will then be brought in to enforce order.
If all goes as planned, Absalom would be subjugated in only a few days of the Cheliaxian host's arrival. The largest and wealthiest trading city will belong to Cheliax, signifying House Thrune's Divine (or Infernal) Mandate. Afterwards, when Abrogail becomes a fully-fledged goddess, she will have no need of Asmodeus. She will be the center of worship of Cheliax, and, indeed, all of Golarion, for eternity.
But that's my thought. Why should Abrogail want to embroil Cheliax in a useless war against the East when she could get a far more valuable prize.
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Comrades, brothers, sisters, citizens!
Ask not what will bring Golarion to world war, but what will bring Golarion to international proletarian socialist revolution?!?
Workers, peasants, goblins, forward to the dictatorship of the goblinariat!
Vive le Galt!
Less filling, tastes great?
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The first act of the dictatorship of the goblinariat, after proclaiming peace, bread, work and freedom, will be to discontinue Bud Light.
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First of all, food logistics aren't a problem; just create a couple command-word activated Create Food and Water items, and you can feed an army... at least until a ninja steals them.
The real problem with a Golarian World War is that it will continue exactly until some high-level wizard pokes her head out of her private demi-plane and shouts "Oi you kids! Stop with the racket!" and some high-level cleric shoots back "Make me!", and then it's all about the spellcasters.
War in a D&D world isn't going to resemble a 16th century war at all, being more like a combination of W.W.II and modern terrorist operations. Even a mid- level wizard can wreck an army witha few midnight scry/ teleport/cloudkill attacks, and high-level spellcasters can destroy cities.
With armies being just fodder for the local necromancer, war would consist of a series of lightning-quick raids against important infrastructure; visible effects would involve cities and fleets being destroyed, while the real action would be the game of teleport tag where each side tries to catch the other side's high-level spellcasters off guard. The nation that runs out of spellcasters first loses.
But hey, you want a real world war? How about this? A necromancer decides to wraith bomb a major city. A couple months later, the shattered remnants of the inner sea armies are fighting a desperate rear-guard action to allow the last few refugee ships to embark overseas. Of course that's more of a "World War W" scenario.
You're assuming an overabundance of high-level casters. This isn't Faerun; Golarion is not overrun by mages or clerics. The prominent casters tend to be rulers of some sort (the Ruby Prince is a high-level cleric, Geb and Nex were wizard god-kings, Tar Baphon is probably mythic, Winter Witches in Irrisen, etc.). Even assuming the existence of some high-level casters, there are very few that actually have the power to oppose an entire nation, much less a power bloc, on their own.
You're also ignoring the very probable possibility that the casters could be opposed by others aligned with the armies, and thus the casters do nothing but negate each other, either via counterspelling or an epic magic duel that ultimately doesn't affect the rest of the battle going on. In this sense, casters are more like warplanes and bombers rather than nuclear weapons.
Also, why are these mysterious casters neutral or impartial in the first place? Being individually powerful doesn't automatically make you an uninvolved third party. In fact, given my above point about caster rulers, I'd argue that it's the opposite.
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You're assuming an overabundance of high-level casters. This isn't Faerun; Golarion is not overrun by mages or clerics. The prominent casters tend to be rulers of some sort (the Ruby Prince is a high-level cleric, Geb and Nex were wizard god-kings, Tar Baphon is probably mythic, Winter Witches in Irrisen, etc.). Even assuming the existence of some high-level casters, there are very few that actually have the power to oppose an entire nation, much less a power bloc, on their own.
You're also ignoring the very probable possibility that the casters could be opposed by others aligned with the armies, and thus the casters do nothing but negate each other, either via counterspelling or an epic magic duel that ultimately doesn't affect the rest of the battle going on. In this sense, casters are more like warplanes and bombers rather than nuclear weapons.
Also, why are these mysterious casters neutral or impartial in the first place? Being individually powerful doesn't automatically make you an uninvolved third party. In fact, given my above point about caster rulers, I'd argue that it's the opposite.
I concur. While there may be a good number of casters belonging to any nation or faction's military in any of these conflicts, very few will be particularly high level. I mean, look at the "Dragon's Demand" Module that Paizo just released. The experienced and aged wizard whom a good deal of the story revolves around was only 9th Level. What level is the average magic student's recruited into his nation's military going to be? 3rd or 4th at the highest? Queen Abrogail II of House Thrune is supposed to be a 16th level sorcerer (If I recall correctly from Inner Sea Magic). She is a startling exception and essentially a child prodigy, and hardly the rule.
To add to The Dread Pirate Hurley's point, do not forget the wars of Thassilon between the seven various kingdoms of Sin, such as between Karzoug and Alaznist. They were more often than not colossal stalemates that resulted in the deaths of countless thousands of people with little ground gained, except towards the very end when Alaznist tried summoning the Oliphant of Jandelay in a final act of desperation just before Star Fall. Essentially the two were constantly countering each other, even when these two magical powerhouses fought each other face-to-face.
Here's my idea for a World War scenario. Queen Abrogail II of Cheliax quite simply wants to become a God, and following the traditions of another great Cheliaxian woman-turned-Goddess (Iomedae) she wishes to take the test of Starstone. [...]
You mean Uncle Asmodeus would simply sit by and watch the creation of a competitor? One who's dogma pretty much matches his own? I hardly think so.
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Here's my idea for a World War scenario. Queen Abrogail II of Cheliax quite simply wants to become a God, and following the traditions of another great Cheliaxian woman-turned-Goddess (Iomedae) she wishes to take the test of Starstone. [...]You mean Uncle Asmodeus would simply sit by and watch the creation of a competitor? One who's dogma pretty much matches his own? I hardly think so.
Of course he wouldn't. But she wasn't going to tell anyone that she wanted to become the next Lawful Evil Goddess, even her closest and most trusted friends and advisers...oh, wait, she doesn't trust anyone. As far as most people are concerned, this was just a highly complex plot to take Absalom because it is the richest and most culturally significant city on Golarion, and would be the crown jewel of the revanchist Chelaxian Empire. And it continues to look that way until Abrogail steps into the Starstone Cathedral...
Of course he wouldn't. But she wasn't going to tell anyone that she wanted to become the next Lawful Evil Goddess, even her closest and most trusted friends and advisers...oh, wait, she doesn't trust anyone. As far as most people are concerned, this was just a highly complex plot to take Absalom because it is the richest and most culturally significant city on Golarion, and would be the crown jewel of the revanchist Chelaxian Empire. And it continues to look that way until Abrogail steps into the Starstone Cathedral...Here's my idea for a World War scenario. Queen Abrogail II of Cheliax quite simply wants to become a God, and following the traditions of another great Cheliaxian woman-turned-Goddess (Iomedae) she wishes to take the test of Starstone. [...]You mean Uncle Asmodeus would simply sit by and watch the creation of a competitor? One who's dogma pretty much matches his own? I hardly think so.
Oh, come on. Asmodeus is a god, not 'most people'. Do you think he's going to be fooled by that explanation? Not considering that he immediately would kill her after she ascends.
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Oh, come on. Asmodeus is a god, not 'most people'. Do you think he's going to be fooled by that explanation? Not considering that he immediately would kill her after she ascends.
Perhaps, but Asmodeus doesn't seem to be that interventionist. If he felt threatened by the Starstone and the rivals that could arise from it, one would think that he would have killed people like Cayden Cailean, Iomedae or Norgober, who seem like far greater ideological threats/rivals to him. Or, he would have simply destroyed the Starstone Cathedral.
Perhaps he is so arrogant that even if mortals manage to ascend to Godhood, he basically laughs at them for being a bunch of parvenus. He is one of the oldest and most powerful of the Gods after all, and mere godhood alone does not put one on his level.
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I see a returned Nex and Geb as being the centers of increasinly large power blocks. a revived rivalry would draw in the rest of the region to join one side or the other. then any spark would set off a war at least in the inner sea region, if not further due to some far flung ties like Cheliax's colonies. Or even Old Man Jatumbe could return for a three sided conflict...
My personal favorite would be having an artifact from Numeria end up in Alkenstar causing a steampunkish industrial revolution which has the new technological nations facing off against those who rely on magic for power and dominance.
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Oh, come on. Asmodeus is a god, not 'most people'. Do you think he's going to be fooled by that explanation? Not considering that he immediately would kill her after she ascends.Perhaps, but Asmodeus doesn't seem to be that interventionist. If he felt threatened by the Starstone and the rivals that could arise from it, one would think that he would have killed people like Cayden Cailean, Iomedae or Norgober, who seem like far greater ideological threats/rivals to him. Or, he would have simply destroyed the Starstone Cathedral.
Perhaps he is so arrogant that even if mortals manage to ascend to Godhood, he basically laughs at them for being a bunch of parvenus. He is one of the oldest and most powerful of the Gods after all, and mere godhood alone does not put one on his level.
The other ascendents did not encroach on his domain. Abrogail already has a lot of potential adherents, and with the Thrune's dogma of "Hell serves us!", she would be a direct threat.
Asmodeus would not have to act himself. He has enough proxies who could do the deed for him. However, Abrogail would have to a made an example of, with Asmodeus as the one responsible.
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Oh, come on. Asmodeus is a god, not 'most people'. Do you think he's going to be fooled by that explanation? Not considering that he immediately would kill her after she ascends.Perhaps, but Asmodeus doesn't seem to be that interventionist. If he felt threatened by the Starstone and the rivals that could arise from it, one would think that he would have killed people like Cayden Cailean, Iomedae or Norgober, who seem like far greater ideological threats/rivals to him. Or, he would have simply destroyed the Starstone Cathedral.
Perhaps he is so arrogant that even if mortals manage to ascend to Godhood, he basically laughs at them for being a bunch of parvenus. He is one of the oldest and most powerful of the Gods after all, and mere godhood alone does not put one on his level.
The other ascendents did not encroach on his domain. Abrogail already has a lot of potential adherents, and with the Thrune's dogma of "Hell serves us!", she would be a direct threat.
Asmodeus would not have to act himself. He has enough proxies who could do the deed for him. However, Abrogail would have to a made an example of, with Asmodeus as the one responsible.
If she actually passed the Test of the Starstone, Abrogail would be immediately catapulted to true diety status - Asmodeus would be stronger than her, but only by a matter of degree. In terms of raw power, she'd be able to hold her own in a fight between the two, to the point that it would take a massive commitment of power and resources on Old Scratch's part to kill her. A commitment that would leave him vulnerable to the forces that really, really don't like him.
Also, the last time Asmodeus killed a true god (Ihys), the aftermath destroyed a solar system. Destroying Golarian as collateral damage because some kid passed the Test of the Starstone would be a terrible, terrible idea.
Asmodeus also seems to take a very different tack towards mortals who ascend to godhood because, well, they aren't mortals anymore. While he has no respect for the playing pieces, he has a certain level of regard for his fellow divine players.
Asmodeus would be far more likely to offer the new goddess a job (and depending on the terms, perhaps even a new layer of hell!) than to try to kill her. Acquiring the service of a newly minted goddess would be worth more than all of the Archdukes put together.
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Also, the last time Asmodeus killed a true god (Ihys), the aftermath destroyed a solar system. Destroying Golarian as collateral damage because some kid passed the Test of the Starstone would be a terrible, terrible idea.
It would be an especially terrible idea risking unleashing such destructive force since Golarion is the cage which imprisons Rovagug. If Golarion is shattered, the Universe may not be able to withstand the Second Coming of the Rough Beast.
@Zhangar: That's why I think that Asmodeus would intervene before she even touched the Stone.
In the Inner Sea the biggest and most formally established power bloc consists of Cheliax, Nidal and Isger, the latter two being, at least formally, vassals or tributary states of the former. To this bloc we can probably append Korvosa as well without too much trouble.
Good analysis, but what happens when you factor in Korvosa's local Runelord?
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In the Inner Sea the biggest and most formally established power bloc consists of Cheliax, Nidal and Isger, the latter two being, at least formally, vassals or tributary states of the former. To this bloc we can probably append Korvosa as well without too much trouble.Good analysis, but what happens when you factor in Korvosa's local Runelord?
An epoch-making event such as the reawakening of a Runelord (or Tar-Baphton, or the Tarrasque, or Nex etc.) is beyond the scope of my analysis, which focused on a war begun in the "conventional" diplomatic manner over a more traditional cassus belli. Epoch-making events can shatter existing power blocs, tie them closer together, expand them, or raise up new ones.
Sorshen was one of the more powerful Runelords if I remember correctly, and would have no use for the Korvosan aping and tailing of Cheliax that places them firmly in that power bloc. But at the same time a restored Eurythnia doesn't offer the rest of that bloc anything special except another enemy on its flank, and one more powerful than Magnimar. That being the case, if she doesn't provoke immediate retaliation on the political level just by restoring Eurythnia (as opposed to the "freelance" retaliation of bands of heroes trying to assassinate her), the world probably settles into a new status quo rather than exploding into war.