Pathfinder was able to seize the moment when 4e face planted with most players. But it also inherited the overly detailed crunch of 3E. The APs were great and I ran lots of PF but as others have mentioned beyond level 10 things start to get annoying to track and once you start building spreadsheets to run an NPC it tends to lose appeal.
I didn’t come to 5e right away but when I did it was clear they had built a much better fantasy RPG with a more rules-lite approach that suited most players and DMs far better. I was quite happy to bid the days of 3E and PF farewell. Due to the lower amount of prep needed also got back to running more home brew adventures and campaigns.
Its been a long time as I ran CoCT several years ago. I am not famaliar with the recent update.
From the other posters it seems the encounters have been upped, I would trim them down judiciously.
Scarwall worked well for my group as the focus was on accomplishing the mission re the soul anchors it helped drive the dungeon crawling and give it some set objective as opposed to walk down halls, kill stuff. The rping in this dungeon setting was quite memorable but that can only happen by the GM providing good opportunities for the party to understand the background and situation. IIRC, I used the hag to provide a lot of facts (after the party subdued her). It wasn't really planned but seemed like a good opportunity to convey info that Laori and Sial wouldn't necessarily be privy to (or wish to share)
Re how to fight undead at this level the PCs should have reasonable Knowledge skills and advice from Laori, Sial. Info dumping should be straightforward. The importance of Deathward spells cannot be overstated.
Re maps, don't try to map out the whole castle, just do the rooms you need either done ahead of time (1 inch grid paper can be found from stationary store pretty easily) or just draw them as needed. Maybe have a flip mat or two stand in for important encounters.
Re Laori/Sial I can't quite remember what happened but the party had a falling out with Sial so Laori was the only NPC to worry about. Sial is pretty disposable.
Its been a long time as I ran CoCT several years ago. I am not famaliar with the recent update.
From the other posters it seems the encounters have been upped, I would trim them down judiciously.
Scarwall worked well for my group as the focus was on accomplishing the mission re the soul anchors it helped drive the dungeon crawling and give it some set objective as opposed to walk down halls, kill stuff. The rping in this dungeon setting was quite memorable but that can only happen by the GM providing good opportunities for the party to understand the background and situation. IIRC, I used the hag to provide a lot of facts (after the party subdued her). It wasn't really planned but seemed like a good opportunity to convey info that Laori and Sial wouldn't necessarily be privy to (or wish to share)
Re how to fight undead at this level the PCs should have reasonable Knowledge skills and advice from Laori, Sial. Info dumping should be straightforward. The importance of Deathward spells cannot be overstated.
Re maps, don't try to map out the whole castle, just do the rooms you need either done ahead of time (1 inch grid paper can be found from stationary store pretty easily) or just draw them as needed. Maybe have a flip mat or two stand in for important encounters.
Ran the very last session of Jade Regent, I quite like books 5 and 6 as written but inserting a kaiju battle while the opposing armies fight was a pretty epic way to end this campaign.
The Five Storms (down to Three Storms for the final battle -Jade Regent, Oracle, and Anam) had control of the Tarrasque. The party after completing the quest at the Emperor's Isle were also blessed with the ability to summon a CR 20 Imperial Sovereighn dragon using the Amatatsu Seal.
So the final battle occurred outside Kasai triggered by the summoning of the Tarrasque to stomp out the rebels.
It more or less eliminated the walk thru of the palace in book 6 but I inserted some challenges around the army and included the Raven Prince attempting to assassinate Ameiko on the eve of the battle. It made for a more fluid last half of book 6, my group seemed to enjoy it.
Ah the inevitable Lovecraft was a racist therefore anyone who enjoys his writing must be racist. (OK well if you enjoy Horror at Red Hook maybe)
The notion that Paizo has a conflict of interest (i.e. a company with evident progressive direction) mining Lovecraft (and others) for inspiration for a game is spurious. I don't think the good folks over at Chaosium are continually worrying about the yellow peril or miscegenation either.
Looking forward to the AP and all of its Lovecraftian tentacles.
I'd disagree about Carrion Crown, a party set up to take down undead will do just fine. Harrowstone is a tough adventure granted but outside of a few scattered encounters throughout the books it is nowhere near Age of Worms or Rappan Athuk. I'd imagine a non-mythic run of WoTR should be challenging.
That said from the OP's post the group would be better off with low point buy and maybe a few other changes to account for the skill of the players, # of the players etc.
Downloaded and read most of the adventure last night, really enjoying it, a big breath of fresh air for APs and as I'm wrapping up my Jade Regent campaign seriously considering this one. Strangely, enough the sword and planet vibe I think is an easier sell than the robots and dungeons of Iron Gods.
Quick question ; is there a campaign outline for all the chapters?
Scanned through this thread and others, my group just finished Tide of Honor last night and now we're going in the home stretch. The campaign has been great thus far and I've tweaked and added things as we go.
So I thought I'd see if any GMs had any specific notes for the Empty Throne? I'm leaning towards running it more or less as is; the only change I'm going to make is a shameless need to plug in some kaiju for the climax.
My thinking thus far is that in times of need the Five Seals could be used together to summon a kaiju protector of Minkai. I've hinted that the Five Storms have their own anti-seals so to speak and can use them to summon a tarrasque (I've GMed for decades and never had a chance to use it so this seems as good as any time).
So the mission in the end becomes a focus on locating the hidden vault obtaining the remaining seals and summoning the kaiju to take on the tarrasque before it destroys the rebel army.
My thinking is the dead Emperor could reveal the location of the vault after his body is restored.
Also just curious on any other GMs that have tweaked the final book?
Back when I ran CoCT, Rolth also turned into a recurring villain, I had him reappear in book 6 after providing the party clues to who was organizing the blood samples for the Queen. It was a memorable rematch and gave the party some important clues as to Ilesoa's final game plan.
All three feature memorable epic encounters but also possess a good mix of rp, diplomacy and most importantly players have meaningful choices to make in resolving the adventure.
In contrast with a lot of praise in this thread for Gallowspire I found the adventure a meat grinder dungeon crawl with no opportunity for meaningful player choices, while I Used some of the encounters when I ran it I significantly overhauled the adventure to provide some more sandbox elements
Jade is a lot of fun (my group is about to start book 6), and the beginning of the AP should be fun for a group that just wrapped up Rise. Like any APs it takes some tweaks to tailor it to your group.
I would also highly recommend Curse. Still hands down the best AP published.
I just finished running this AP a few weeks ago, and we certainly added a few steampunk-ish touches throughout. Re your adjustments,
1. 25 point buy is too high even for a low magic approach. I wouldn't suggest going any higher than 20.
2. Commonplace guns - if you're sticking to muzzle loaders should be just fine (thats what we did). Once you get into revolvers things can get out of hand pretty quick.
Re low/limited magic, it all really depends on your approach. As your using the slow XP progression the campaign could well end before any high level hijinks begin, that would be the simplest. As for explaining it, the campaign doesn't need to be set in Golarian just Ustalav. Hell Ustalav could be in Ravenloft if you wanted.
We're 1/4 into Book 5, I highly recommend this campaign, it has a lot to offer and should please just about every playstyle.
From my experience it was best to drop the caravan, relationship stuff as it can be more easily resolved (I pretty well just fudged in some additional treasure to represent their share of the profits when the caravan reached a city).
The caravan works essentially as a mobile town for the party to come back to and engage with. I did have the NPCs on a revolving door to help with away missions for the first three books. I removed the elven ranger as she was too much of an adventurer role rather than a support role.
Re Ameiko, we had a somewhat regular player take her role which worked well. That player hasn't been able to make it for a bit now so it's less ideal. A GM does really need to underline that the party are all Amatatsu now (divine right etc.) so that Ameiko is not untouchable. I think your idea of removing her entirely by the end of book 1 works.
As far as needing to run Burnt Offerings I feel that is completely unnecessary but to each their own.
#3 as the boy is still in peril (so the players get to be heroes) and also gets the story moving by introducing Ves in a way that should help build trust.
RIP Mike and sincere condolences to family and friends. Korvosa will always be my favourite city in Golorian, next time your at the Posh and Turtle raise a glass in memory.
As others have posted for engaging and unified story CoCT remains the best of the APs. I'd add JR and WoTR as other contenders but from your original post I think you and your group would be most happy with CoCT unless your players really want to be pirates, go to the orient etc. Player interest is a always a good place to start.
I ran WoW and I think the group enjoyed it mostly. I did try to tie the events of the adventure a bit closer to the Way's grander plot.
My general idea was that the mi-go (I replaced them with mind flayers) were brought in to develop essentially a biological weapon to be used against the Ustalav populace. Adivion hoping this would ensure that the Way's plans were left alone while the powers that be fight this infestation.
Illmarsh is essentially a testing ground for this weapon. However, in my interpretation the illithid themselves not realizing the true power of Shub-Niggurath become infected and thus minions to Shub-Niggurath.
It still felt a bit of a side trek but tying the events to the machinations of the WW (at this point to in my campaign they knew who Adivion was) definitely helped.
Also have a large group for JR (started with 8 players, now 6 with one person occasionally guesting as Ameiko). We are at book 5 after nearly 2 years of playing.
I highly recommend attempting to fold some of the NPC roles with players especially Ameiko. I dropped Shalelu as someone essentially took her role and a regular player was doing Ameiko but now due to other commitments joins here and there.
I've done some pretty similar things as you have:
1. Essentially doubing the monsters (a lot of monsters have brothers or sisters it seems!)
2. Regular monsters I'll often take their max hp and multiply by 1.5. Bosses I've even tripled.
3. For ease of play I generally will provide the monsters ACs, encourage rolling in advance, be pretty particular about keeping turns flowing quickly.
4. I will use automated dice rollers for complicated monsters/opponents and roll in advance so I'm not rolling 8 attacks and managing the action at the table. I generally put in their full attack repeat it 8 times and cycle through it as necessary.
5. For dungeons double sizes so 5' squares are 10'. It gets frustrating and boring if players can't get involved or monsters can't attack more than one guy.
6. Pretty well all what Dustin said as well.
7. Also, as with most APs be up front with the players about the premise of the AP, encourage them to build characters that would want to help Ameiko, explore the orient etc. With a large group it will be harder to go off script and it still be fun.
We've had a lot of fun with a good mix of rp and combat. Its a fun AP but with larger groups be prepared to do a bit more tweaking and prep work to make it run on all cylinders.
Its been awhile since I ran this book but my impression was that the weather control and the megaliths were part of Sithud's plan to claim the land and continue to rebuild his power. So he is essentially doing what you're wondering about.
Re the map folio, I got a lot of use out the Ustalav poster map and the city maps but I also am a sucker for props.
Rule of Fear is somewhat useful in providing further background on the country and regions but in truth I didn't make great use of it but if you're expanding the campaign as written it should provide some good fodder.
I would note that Carrion Hill while a good adventure on its own when grouped with six other horror adventures might make the AP a bit much. My group is a session or two from wrapping up the campaign but I think there is definitely a feeling of looking forward to something that is not horror-themed.
also what Lord Snow said, I would add mythic is broadly considered a failure (or at least a failure from tier 3 onwards). Check out the wrath of the righteous threads there's lots of information there. If you're looking for mythic feeling I do think the best solution is to be generous in the use and allotment of hero points as this can capture that heroic feeling without too much work or ramifications.
Yeah Auren using the components he's gathered thus far to ascend to lichdom would make sense.
Re Feldgrau, when I ran it I expanded Feldgrau into an entire ruined city haunted by the spirits of the war's victims rather than just a small town. The party had to crosses trenches to get into the city where there were all manner of wwI inspired undead. I made the operation feel much bigger with more WW cultists raising undead so that the party needed to use stealth and recon to locate Vrood. Auren's main base was a cathedral and I added some daemons he had pressed into service for some added fun. As written Vrood is a pretty challenging foe so I didn't do much to ramp him up just added minions to the showdown.
Things that I've found mostly GMing over twenty years in no particular order:
1. Soundtracks - music can be a great tool not only for combat but to help build scenes (e.g. royal feast, holy temple etc.)
2. Handouts/props - rather than describe a map they find or some document from the ambassador provide it to the group.
2. I certainly use voices and posture, gesture, using/miming small props (e.g. a cigar chomping half orc merc) quite a bit for NPCs of note. My groups seem to enjoy it but I am also mindful of not going that route for every single NPC and still mostly focusing on what the players want out of the interaction rather than just me taking up all the time being a bit silly.
3. Narrative, description - avoid detailing combats as you take 30 hp or deal 10 damage. Embellish with some narrative touches (e.g. you deliver a reeling blow to the ogre, the thief's scimiatar cuts deeply into your flank for 10 hp)
4. Depends on your group but any campaign really depends on motivating the PCs and giving them something to care about (e.g. their hometown, building a pirate fleet). If the players are just grinding their way through a dungeon with no real reason to save for gaining XP any drama is likely to fall flat because there are no stakes.
I'm a session or two from finishing running CC. It is one of the better APs out there though not without its flaws. The pluses gothic horror atmosphere, lots of role playing opportunities (save for the last book which turns quickly as written into a grind), loads of support material both published and on the boards. Recommended but will need work in adapting/tweaking to get the most mileage out of it.
I've used roll20 a while back and thought it was pretty good but I haven't used it as I moved and now have gaming groups to meet in person.
I've been running JR for 2 years now we just started book 5 its a lot of fun I think you're group will have a blast. Re introduction if I recall I had my group bringing a caravan in with Sandhru when they ended up being attacked by a horde of skeletons dressed in Minkai armour that emerged from the swamp chasing Scribbles the goblin who had a Minkai lantern. Its been awhile but I recall inserting that as a hook and way to meet Scribbles (who was a favourite NPC).
Pretty well what Neirikr said, you may also suggest some connections that come up in later adventures; Varisians, Shoanti, ties to the Cerulean Society or Old Korvosa, and for upper class characters the local nobility. My players included a Varisian bard with ties to the community in Korvosa, a town watch copper, a Shoanti and relative of Thousand Bones, and a noble character whose house ended up hosting the zombie party in book 2. These players had a blast throughout the campaign whereas one of the players who played an elf with no connections to the city (despite ongoing suggestions) while I think he had fun he was obviously not as invested as he could be. I had a great group for this campaign and was able to really weave the character's background and goals into the fabric of the AP. This I think is also one of the reasons this AP continues to be held up as Paizo's best. Good luck with the campaign!
Since you have JR up there, I'd recommend it as well. I've been running it for nearly two years we 're on book 5 and its been very good overall. The fixes are easy to make (see the boards here) and require minimal effort. This has definitely been one of the easier APs to run as is. The only thing of course is to gauge your groups interest in the premise of the AP and the asian setting.
I've been running JR for a group of 8 players (1 being a more occasional guest star as Ameiko). We're on book 5, been running it now for nearly two years. The campaign is a lot of fun and mostly as written it is good to go.
A few recommendations:
1. Kick the caravan and romance rule systems to the curb. These add nothing but pointless mechanics that could be done with some rping and a little GM interpretation (i.e. how much money the caravan makes in Kalsgard) and from others on the board here this seems to be the consensus.
2. Even with a large group of PCs the caravan community is important. Encourage players to build those lins b/w them and the NPCs. Also, suggest that players take on those characters (as starting lvl 1 characters). Having a player as Ameiko adds alot to the game. I did remove Shalelu entirely so as to focus on Sandhru, Koya and Ameiko. The caravan really acts as a town that the party returns to throughout. It is a great feature with lots of RP potential.
3. Re caravan combat, my method to run raids and such were to simply focus on one aspect of the battlefield and narrate that the NPCs were also fighting valiantly and essentially their performance mirrored the party's results (i.e. getting beaten up good or stomping on the raiders)
4. In terms of the supporting cast I did have them aid the PCs here and there rotating them when the party went on a mission.
My group is starting book 5 in JR. I highly recommend it. Re the subsystems such as caravan and romance just jettison it, it was completely unnecessary and adds nothing to the game that couldn't be done with rp or a little narration by the dm.
JR is a great mix of action, rp, investigation with memorable locations and a quest that should hook about any player (reclaim a throne).
Since you mentioned CoCT and from your post sounds like you're at Escape from Old Korvosa.
Spoiler:
-Depending on how your party has acted in previous adventures the villain may have a good sense of the PCs strengths and weaknesses. Meaning a few encounters with the Red Mantis that know what they're up against allow you to tailor a few 'mean' encounters.
-The Emperor is pretty easy to deal with though the Rod of Wonder can make for a memorable encounter. the gnome barbarian I remember can be pretty deadly if the dice are hot.
-The rakshasas on the other hand need bump up. Max HP is a must. Defensive buffs like Displacement and Stoneskin are handy. Again the raks should have a home field advantage and some of their minions are pretty deadly (the flying fungal skeletons in the pit I remember being nasty).
-As a 3.5 adventure everything needs to be bumped up a bit for Pathfinder characters which have more resources/power. A good rule of thumb might be to add to 2HD to opponents and up the CR of encounters principally by adding monsters. A lot of beasties in my campaigns have siblings as a result.
-Re the druid with ice storm prepared twice. Assuming the player didn't just pull a fast one, wouldn't worry about it. It happens especially with spell casters and the player should get some measure of satisfaction of having the right spell for the job.
Whatever works in your game for your group. I don't find any of those criticisms an issue. Some players are better at selling the bard concept than others tis true which helps at the table but the class and its concepts are pretty firmly rooted in fantasy and D&D tropes.
hi olivier, thanks for the response and reasoning. I mentioned it actually as it was really the only thing from reading over the players manual that arched an eyebrow. I understood some intent and especially as you mentioned M&M being a faux retro RPG it even makes more sense. Still certainly for my group I would ditch those restrictions. I'll have to check out the Companion. I have to say I was quite impressed with M&M and think it'll be a lot of fun.
Hi all so I'm wrapping up a Carrion Crown and JR campaigns and looking to take a break from PF. One of the ideas thats picked up some traction from the group as a next campaign is a Greek style campaign. Basic idea is the PCs are establishing a colony in Thrace. Magic, monsters and all that good stuff. I have been looking at M&M as a potential system rather than PF but was wondering what were people's actual experiences at the table running this system. There are a few odd things that I'm not sure about such as gender restrictions for the classes (even though I can understand the authors intent they strike me as off-putting to players). So wondering if anyone had any thoughts about actual play using M&M?
Given your familiar w we be goblins I would consider Jade Regent as the AP really gets started by the party teaming up with a goblin. It's a fun ap and the boards here are a god source of advice. Depends on whether your group is interested in a trip to the orient though.
Did a search on this thread and didn't see anything so thought I'd post a question here re Black Well, a rather fun spell I'm hoping to hit my players with next session.
So as the spell is cast, the caster can move opponents towards the well up to their CL in squares. If someone is pulled into the square with the well they're hit by the hold person effect (assuming they fail their Fort save) and it appears that characters are held next to the well but still capable of movement on their turn. Are they pulled back or do they lose movement? I'm a bit unclear on how the spell works after the first round it's cast.
One thing after looking over the Advanced Class Guide that I'm seriously considering doing in my campaign is replacing the rogue's sneak attack ability and replacing it with the precise strike from the swashbuckler (without the requirement of panache points). I found in my campaigns the rogue is fine for the most part (in that the players seem to enjoy their character) its just often they aren't able to use the sneak attack ability due to the circumstantial nature of it. The only other thing is making rogues qualify for Combat Expertise without the Int 13 requisite.
So curious what others think on swapping out sneak attack with precise strike?
Yep I'd agree with Alzrius, the character being from Lamordia makes perfect sense. If you can give the player the Lamordia gazeetteer to read so he can pick up on the Lamordian persepective (basically a very materialist and condescending attitude toward magic and well all of the other countries in the Lands of the Core). Players while free to come up with the concept of their character should also strive to use material from the setting as a basis and an arrogant Lamordian fits this very well.
On the other issue about being a jerk to gracious hosts well the player is making choices and consequences result (it doesn't mean to go out and punish the player but sounds like he may very well get the cold shoulder from a lot of society)
I'd recommend JR we are starting book 5 (almost), its been great and a lot of fun rping, combats and story. The journey across the world can be great, I would check the threads here for some common fixes (i.e. shortening book 3, avoiding the dungeon in book 4, throw out the caravan and romance sub systems and consider trimming a character or two from the supporting cast).
Book four in JR is one example. The hunting lodge in Book three of CC is another good one (it covers the setting of the lodge, the host of characters visiting complete with brief backstory, personality and secrets (including a memorable red herring at least for my group). It also contained some other information re clues that would help their investigation. Lastly, there were a few trigger events included that provided some response to the party's actions as they snooped about.
While I ended up going through that material relatively quickly depending on the group that easily could have provided 2 sessions worth of material.
