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Curious - how would a PFS session handle one character riding another?
One character could possibly ride another with an exotic saddle (with a -5 to ride checks unless I'm mistaken) - and if the rider were at least one size smaller. And frankly - as silly as it seems it would be quite potent. (especially since the character being ridden could have their AC boosted by their rider once per round)
The one big question I have is how initiative would work. Normally a mount goes on the rider's initiative - but that's when they're not an adventurer in their own right. Plus it would complicate things terribly if they were on different initiatives. When does the rider count as charging? Can the mount use the rider's ride-by-attack in his own turn? etc. Tons of issues crop up.
In a home game I'd probably just houserule that you use the rider's initiative - arguing that he can pull on reins to get his 'mount' to move. But how would this be done in PFS? My friend and I are semi-seriously considering him being a halfling riding a half-orc barbarion named Thog (played by me). The idea amuses me.
There's no hard and fast rules for this. expect table variation.
Also expect more banhammering if you're trying shennanigans like using one players +11nth million init mod to get another character to go sooner in the init order.
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You would not use the Ride skill at all.
It will be separate actions per PC on separate initiatives and just having one PC carrying another being effected by Encumbrance and using up his/her hand/s.
The Rider would require a Balance check most likely to stay on the PCs shoulders and be able to attack. It my incure penalties *I would have to look into that* Simliar to when climbing.
Unless we are talking about the PC being ridden shape changing into an Animal for riding, then you can default to the riding rules I would say.
You would not use the Ride skill at all.
It will be separate actions per PC on separate initiatives and just having one PC carrying another being effected by Encumbrance and using up his/her hand/s.
That's even more exploitable than a mount. The Dwarven cleric could pick up the barbarian and carry him over to the fight and then let the barbarian full attack.
At least if the dwarf is declared a mount the barbarian can't full attack.
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You would not use the Ride skill at all.
It will be separate actions per PC on separate initiatives and just having one PC carrying another being effected by Encumbrance and using up his/her hand/s.
The Rider would require a Balance check most likely to stay on the PCs shoulders and be able to attack. It my incure penalties *I would have to look into that* Simliar to when climbing.
Unless we are talking about the PC being ridden shape changing into an Animal for riding, then you can default to the riding rules I would say.
You wouldn't need to use hands if you have an exotic saddle.
And the ride skill says specifically that "If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks."
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That's even more exploitable than a mount. The Dwarven cleric could pick up the barbarian and carry him over to the fight and then let the barbarian full attack.
I have no problem with that, it falls into allowable rules. Though for most PCs the encumbrance would be crippling enough that they would not be able to move or move very far at all.
If any of the PC involved were not paying attention to encumbrance I would not allow it at all.
That's even more exploitable than a mount. The Dwarven cleric could pick up the barbarian and carry him over to the fight and then let the barbarian full attack.I have no problem with that, it falls into allowable rules. Though for most PCs the encumbrance would be crippling enough that they would not be able to move or move very far at all.
If any of the PC involved were not paying attention to encumbrance I would not allow it at all.
1 ant haul spell and even the 8 strength wizard can say "encumbrance.. what encumbrance?"
I would expect a quote of: "Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds."
Unless you are playing a horse, pony, or riding dog (which I don't believe is PFS allowed) then you cannot be a mount.
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First...
Next, I don't believe that there's really anything in RAW to cover this. It's an interesting idea, and I have made the jokes myself before ("The Gnome hops onto the Barbarian's shoulders and rides him into battle!"), but I'd almost guarantee PFS would ix-nay it as a viable tactic.
Humorously, in the Mounted Combat section you can find this text:
Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat.
Since a Barbarian doesn't have the "Fighting" trick, does that mean that the moment the gnome hops on his shoulders to ride into battle, he suddenly becomes a coward? :P
There's a James Jacobs recommendation around here on the subject. The mounted combat rules get a lot more wonky the more you get into them, and they're not originally intended for a PC to ride a PC. However, if you do, he recommends that certain effects -- like negating attacks with Mounted Combat -- only come into effect when the rider is actively controlling the mount PC.
The best RAW way that you could do this from level 1 (and not have people completely mock you) is have one of you be a quadruped synth summoner with the mount evolution.
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Thinking about it, you can probably make it work just using normal game mechanics and ignoring mount mechanics.
For starters, the rider will always delay his initiative until the mount gets him to melee range. So if the mount wants to get the rider up to take a full attack, then what happens is the mount moves, then readies his standard action until his rider is done making a full attack from his back.
I believe there are penalties to attack while mounted, but feats that would eliminate those penalties (I'm no expert on mounted combat), so I'd say those should still apply to the rider's attacks.
The only penalty for the mount taking his actions would be those imposed by encumbrance.
That's how I'd rule it if I were GM, but this is definitely well into "expect table variation" territory.
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What you need to consider:
- The faster PC delaying for the slower PC (probably not necessary, but highly recommended)
- Encumberance of the mount PC
- Exotic Saddle on the mount PC. The mount PC is obviously combat-trained (unless you're playing a commoner, I guess).
- -5 penalty for ride checks for the rider PC. Some ride checks would still count here; Cover, Soft Fall, Spur Mount, Fast Mount/Dismount.
- Feats are optional (as always). Mounted Combat doesn't change, only the rider PC requires it.
The rider would get a +1 bonus for high ground, as normal.
Mounts don't usually get a penalty for attacks while they're mounted, so presumably a mount PC wouldn't either. There's no rule talking about penalties on anything for "ill-suited mounts" while they have a rider.
I would expect a quote of: "Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds."
Unless you are playing a horse, pony, or riding dog (which I don't believe is PFS allowed) then you cannot be a mount.
It doesn't say ONLY horses ponies and riding dogs can serve as combat steeds.
The animal archive specifically has riding dire bats for pete's sake.
I would expect a quote of: "Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds."
Unless you are playing a horse, pony, or riding dog (which I don't believe is PFS allowed) then you cannot be a mount.
It doesn't say ONLY horses ponies and riding dogs can serve as combat steeds.
The animal archive specifically has riding dire bats for pete's sake.
Ok. Where does it specifically say you can ride another PC?
The dwarf isn't a mount.
he has a saddle, he's carrying someone. The game doesn't have any other rules framework to work with. He's a mount.
The party wizard can ddoor others into full attack range and have them full attack.. likewise he can have them on a floating disk and do the same.
Dimension door is a 4th level spell. It should do things like that.
Tensor floating skateboard is, likewise, uncharted raw territory.
Ok. Where does it specifically say you can ride another PC?
It does not. Like i said, there's no hard and fast rules here, but your answer chucks the daycamp out with the swimming pool.
If you're making a dms call then make a dms call and own up to it. If you're trying to rules lawyer an answer you need a line of reasoning that doesn't fall apart so easily.
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Ok. Where does it specifically say you can ride another PC?I would expect a quote of: "Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds."
Unless you are playing a horse, pony, or riding dog (which I don't believe is PFS allowed) then you cannot be a mount.
It doesn't say ONLY horses ponies and riding dogs can serve as combat steeds.
The animal archive specifically has riding dire bats for pete's sake.
Where does it specifically say you can't?
RPGs are games of imagination. Creative ideas should be allowed, within the confines of the rules. The existence of an "exotic saddle" item supports the idea of creative mount choices.
The question isn't whether or not this is allowed by the rules. PCs can do anything they can imagine, as long as the rules don't explicitly disallow it. The question is what details in the rules are relevant when two PCs actually do it.
T'is a fine and blurry line between creative and cheesey.
I was in a game where the gnome alchemist routinely rode around on the half-ogre cleric. They even built a special a special backpack for the gnome that was sort of like a half-gunner's platform, half-baby carrier.
The gnome referred to the cleric as his "trusty steed" and the cleric referred to the gnome as his "turret".
It was a pretty amusing and effective tactic.
Only creatures specified as allowable as mounts are RAW able to be mounts. This would include the entire section in ultimate equipment under mounts.
Animal Price Weight
Axe beak (combat trained) 1,500 gp 500 lbs.
Axe beak egg 1,000 gp 10 lbs.
Camel 150 gp 1,500 lbs
Dire bat, riding 300 gp 400 lbs.
Dire bat, riding (combat trained) 450 gp 450 lbs.
Dog, riding 150 gp 50 lbs.
Elephant 1,000 gp 5 tons
Gecko, riding 300 gp 1,200 lbs.
Gecko, riding (combat trained) 400 gp 1,500 lbs.
Griffon (combat trained) 8,000 gp 500 lbs.
Griffon egg 3,500 gp 10 lbs.
Hippogriff (combat trained) 5,000 gp 500 lbs.
Hippogriff egg 200 gp 10 lbs.
Horse, heavy 200 gp 2,000 lbs.
Horse, heavy (combat trained) 300 gp 3,000 lbs.
Horse, light 75 gp 900 lbs.
Horse, light (combat trained) 110 gp 1,200 lbs.
Pony 30 gp 800 lbs.
Pony (combat trained) 45 gp 900 lbs.
Mastodon 2,000 gp 8 tons
Anything not listed there, or without specific text allowing it to be a mount, cannot be a mount.
Anything not listed there, or without specific text allowing it to be a mount, cannot be a mount.
and anyone who says otherwise is having badwrongfun!
and anyone who says otherwise is having badwrongfun!Anything not listed there, or without specific text allowing it to be a mount, cannot be a mount.
No, and anyone who says otherwise is not playing by RAW, and is using houserules. If you want suggestions of how to houserule having a PC as a mount, I suggest posting a thread in that forum.
If you want answers as to what the RAW says on the matter, post in the rules questions forum, as was done.
To be clear, I do not think houserules are badwrongfun or any way inferior to the RAW. Houserule what you need to to have fun/make it work the way you want to. Don't expect advice on it when you post to the rules questions forum, which is concerned with RAW.
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Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat.Since a Barbarian doesn't have the "Fighting" trick, does that mean that the moment the gnome hops on his shoulders to ride into battle, he suddenly becomes a coward? :P
Well I'd hope the Barbarian has at least 3 Int so he doesn't need tricks lol.
An official Paizo module has something akin to this.
I think it's cheesy, but I mentioned it anyway to someone I thought may just have the gall to try it just so I could see it in action at the table.
Do I know thee, helper of Charon?
This is provably false: small Cavaliers can take a wolf or, if at least level 4, a boar as a mount. Neither is on your list. If the list were intended to be exhaustive it would have to include all animals available as cavalier mounts in previous publications.Only creatures specified as allowable as mounts are RAW able to be mounts. This would include the entire section in ultimate equipment under mounts.
** spoiler omitted **
Anything not listed there, or without specific text allowing it to be a mount, cannot be a mount.
"A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts. "
Look at that. Specific text allowing it to be a mount, specifically only for cavaliers.
You can't have a fighter buy a boar to ride into combat. Not even if he is small sized. Only cavalier's (or others with similar text in their abilities) can ride those.
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And again, I agree that using the mount rules for this sort of thing isn't supported by RAW. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done. It just means that the rules have to be combed through to figure out what does and doesn't apply.
So what do we really know for sure, by RAW?
- Can a PC wear a saddle? Yes, exotic saddles can be customized to any creature.
- Can another PC sit in that saddle? Yes. This is what saddles are for. This is assuming the rider is at least one size category smaller than the mount, of course.
- Can the mount PC move while so encumbered? Yes, depending on their strength. See the encumbrance rules in the Core Rulebook.
- Can the mount and rider act on the same initiative? No. Any PC can delay and wait for another so that their turns in the initiative order come back to back, or one can ready a standard action based on the other's actions. That's as close as they'll get, by RAW.
- What type of action is it to mount/dismount another PC? Mounting any steed is normally a move action, though a DC 20 ride check (by the rider) allows it to be done as a free action. There's no reason this should change just because the mount is a PC.
- Does the rider get the +1 bonus for attacking from higher ground? Per the mounted combat section of the Core Rulebook's combat chapter, yes, but only if the target is one or more size categories smaller than the mount. (!)
- Can the rider get the advantages and disadvantages of a charge by the mount? Debatable. This is where we start getting into table variation, where the benefits of mounted combat probably don't apply by RAW. Since the mounted charge rules assume that the mount and rider are acting in unison, but two PCs have to act on separate initiatives, I'd rule that this doesn't work by RAW. First the mount charges, then the rider makes their attacks without moving on their turn, so the rider isn't charging. But that's a gut judgment, and I'd be willing to listen to arguments otherwise.
There's more, but I'd have to go point by point through the ride skill description and mounted combat rules to decide what I think does or doesn't apply. The key point, IMHO, is that the rider isn't controlling the mount, so they don't work in unison. Thus, some of the key benefits of mounted combat wouldn't apply. Without a feat or something allowing the mount character to take commands that way to allow them to act in unison, we have to assume that being smarter than a horse makes them less trainable and controllable. Ironic, but there it is.
But if the smaller character is just looking for greater battlefield mobility, and not specifically looking for the specific advantages of mounted combat, then this should work great for them. Basically, the mount does all the moving using their move actions, so the rider just sits there and attacks, using their move actions for things other than moving, and negating the problem of having short legs. And if the mount PC happens to be a barbarian, cleric with the Travel domain, or monk, then their speed will be even better than the normal 30 for a medium character.
This is provably false: small Cavaliers can take a wolf or, if at least level 4, a boar as a mount. Neither is on your list. If the list were intended to be exhaustive it would have to include all animals available as cavalier mounts in previous publications.Only creatures specified as allowable as mounts are RAW able to be mounts. This would include the entire section in ultimate equipment under mounts.
** spoiler omitted **
Anything not listed there, or without specific text allowing it to be a mount, cannot be a mount.
"A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts. "
Look at that. Specific text allowing it to be a mount, specifically only for cavaliers.
You can't have a fighter buy a boar to ride into combat. Not even if he is small sized. Only cavalier's (or others with similar text in their abilities) can ride those.
Not even if you train it for "Riding" or "Combat Training" using Handle Animal?
Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear
a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come,
defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for
combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade”
an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat
by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20
Handle Animal check. The new general purpose
and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous
purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and
riding dogs are trained in this way.Riding (DC 15): An animal trained to bear a rider knows
the tricks come, heel, and stay. Training an animal for
riding takes 3 weeks.
No language in there about only working on specific animals...
Only creatures specified as allowable as mounts are RAW able to be mounts. This would include the entire section in ultimate equipment under mounts.
** spoiler omitted **
Anything not listed there, or without specific text allowing it to be a mount, cannot be a mount.
This is completely unsupported.
"A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts. "
Look at that. Specific text allowing it to be a mount, specifically only for cavaliers.
and that's not what it says.
