Rebellion in the Silver City - Hell's Rebels for PF2 by DM Doctor Evil

Game Master DM DoctorEvil

Please post if invited to this closed recruitment thread. First order of business is determining an adventure to play. I have access to almost all of Paizo published APs (all of them in the PF2 era), and could come up with a few others from older times if necessary. I am amenable to translating older APs from PF1 era, and some of those stories (Rise of the Runelords, Crimson Throne etc) are among my favorite.

Maybe its best if we start by saying 2-3 APs that you do NOT want to play (either played them, ran them, or don't like them) and that will get some process of elimination started. No wrong answers...If you don't know or have any, that's fine, just say so.

I'm currently playing Quest for the Frozen Flame with a home group, but otherwise any of the 2e APs work for me. I'm quite new to 2e.

I am amenable to all of them, I would say no to Quest for Frozen Flame, tried it with a home group and I struggled really hard to get into the vibe of it.

I'm currently GMing Age of Ashes and Season of Ghosts and we are still fairly early in them, so it'd be hard to be a player in those games but I would manage.

I've played all of Rise of Runelords and GM'd all of Rise of Runelords, still one of my favorite adventures of all time though. Honestly wouldn't be opposed if that is what gets chosen.

Just in case you need it, this is the wiki showing all the published Paizo APs for both PF1 and PF2 (and3.5).

I am fine to exclude Runelords and QFF based on your feedback. It's hard to play games you are running so Age of Ashes and Season of Ghosts should probably also be out -- though I like the Age of Ashes story quite a lot.

I am already running Kingmaker (some of those invited are in this game), Strength of Thousands and and Iron Gods conversion. So I would ask to remove them from consideration also.

Hello! Thank you for the invitation!

I am amenable to all of them, I would say no to Quest for Frozen Flame, tried it with a home group and I struggled really hard to get into the vibe of it.

I'm currently running Quest for the Frozen Flame, we are about to close book two. I will say that it takes the "right" group of people to make it through this one, because is heavily themed and quite different than most APs.

I'm currently playing in and/or running: Curtain Call, Seasons of Ghosts, Seven Dooms for Sandpoint, Crimson Throne, Kingmaker, Burnt Offerings.

I have NOT played/run: Wardens of Wildwood, Triumpth of the Tusk, Spore War, Shades of Blood, Sky King's Tomb, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire.

I'm a well-traveled veteran of Pathfinder and have either played or run parts of mosts adventures prior to 2024 (some several times). Do not feel like we have to pick one from my very short list. I have fond memories of many of the adventurers and wouldn't mind playing them again, so I do not mind playing whatever the group agrees on. Each game is a new experience with the dynamics of the group and I'm thankful to have been invited.

Any 2e will work for me.

As for converted 1e adventures, I am in a Runelords campaign so I am not interested in that. Went up to mid level in Giantslayers so a no to that.

Started a Ruins of Azlant and that was interesting, but the GM vanished. Ditto with Reign of Winter.

I'm a GM in Legacy of Fire so no to that.

Did not care so much for War for the Crown or Tyrant's Grasp, both of which died in the first book.

I have taken a few more off the possible list from your feedback. Still waiting for two more to check in.

If we're talking 1e APs as well, I'm currently in a Reign of Winter group, and I'm running Second Darkness and recently finished Strange Aeons. I was in Miteke's Giantslayer group that sputtered out midway. (Lidia says Hi!)

Did not care so much for War for the Crown or Tyrant's Grasp, both of which died in the first book.

GASP.

I finished both of these. I have to say War for the Crown is in my top two favorites. I absolutely loved this one (I ran once and GM'd once). I'd love to replay this in 2e mechanics one day, as I much prefer 2e mechanics.

I am biased however, I tend to really love the roleplay aspects of the game more so than kill move room, kill, move room kill. WFTC has some great areas for intruige/roleplay. I ran this as a GM up through book four and I will say it can be quite challenging as a GM due to the mass of personaliteis and intruige.

Hi everyone! I'm excited to see that this group is full of people I haven't had the chance to play with before, not including DMDE.

The main thing driving my AP preference is that I would be interested in playing a three-issue AP (or four-issue for Season of Ghosts). Most six-issue APs don't get finished in PbPs, and I find it very satisfying when we do reach an ending.

I've played or GMed Rise of the Runelords, Kingmaker, and quite a few others that never made it past book 1.

If three-issue APs are not something others are interested in, no worries. I'll still happily play the others. I also love homebrew campaigns.

Hi, glad to be here.

I'm in the Kingmaker campaign that DM DoctorEvil is graciouly running. No need for two as he said.

I pretty open to any AP old or new but since you asked for exclusions I'll say I prefer to avoid heavily horror themed ones and I'd like to start at low levels rather than high. Note by horror I don't mean no undead or anything like that. I'd define horror as a constant feeling of dread. Without looking so deep as to read spoilers it seems Strange Aeons may be that, but Maxis already played that so most likely out of the running.

I haven't GMed Pathfinder, my long-time group has been scattered for a while now.

Since I'm in Kingmaker I have slight preference towards a more civilized campaign setting but by no means a requirement. I was very briefly in a Curse of the Crimson Throne that quickly died, wish it hadn't. I didn't get very far, and it was a long time ago.

I'm fine with a 3 part or 6 part. I do understand that sentiment that 6 parters rarely get finished but journey before destination and all that.

After some winnowing based on what people are playing, running, like and don't like -- but with some things left in -- I have a list of 21 choices. That feels like a lot...I have included the poll ranking from Tarandor's Guide to APs which has a pretty handy synopsis and poll results for each Paizo AP. In order of release, here is what is left (the number in parentheses is the Poll rank, out of 44):

1. Crimson Throne (2) - this would be the PF1 updated version
2. Council of Thieves (40) - written for 3.5
3. Serpent's Skull (39)
4. Jade Regent (36)
5. Skull and Shackles (25)
6. Shattered Star (31)
7. Reign of Winter (22)
8. Wrath of the Righteous (21) - would run without Mythic rules
9. Mummy's Mask (20)
10. Hell's Rebels (3)
11. Hell's Vengeance (37) - evil PCs
12. Ironfang Invasion (17)
13. Ruins of Azlant (33) - underwater
14. Return of the Runelords (16)
15. Extinction Curse (41)
16. Agents of Edgewatch (35)
17. Outlaws of Alkenstar (27) - high tech
18. Blood Lords (32) - evil PCs
19. Gatewalkers (43)
20. Sky King's Tomb (26) - mainly dwarves
21. Shades of Blood (not rated)

What seems evident here is that we have played or run the more popular APs already, and we have some rather negative selection left. Most of the higher rated games are off the board. And many of what's left are lower rated. Not that the poll is the last word on if an AP is good or fun, just guidance.

I might suggest having each player take turns eliminating one and/or advocating for one, until we have a smaller number to deal with, unless you have better ideas.

I would discard 11 Hell's Vengeance, it can be interesting to play evil PCs for a session or two but, in my experience wears out quickly. That just may be me though.

Though I haven't played in the Rise of the Runelords, Return of the Runelords looks interesting. I'll make that my first nomination.

If we're talking 1e APs as well, I'm currently in a Reign of Winter group, and I'm running Second Darkness and recently finished Strange Aeons. I was in Miteke's Giantslayer group that sputtered out midway. (Lidia says Hi!)

So cool to have you here. I recommended you for the game, by the way. Loved your RP in Giantslayers.

miteke wrote:

Did not care so much for War for the Crown or Tyrant's Grasp, both of which died in the first book.

GASP.

I finished both of these. I have to say War for the Crown is in my top two favorites. I absolutely loved this one (I ran once and GM'd once). I'd love to replay this in 2e mechanics one day, as I much prefer 2e mechanics.

I am biased however, I tend to really love the roleplay aspects of the game more so than kill move room, kill, move room kill. WFTC has some great areas for intruige/roleplay. I ran this as a GM up through book four and I will say it can be quite challenging as a GM due to the mass of personaliteis and intruige.

There was the whole puzzle room maze which we got stuck in due to lack of GM response. I dislike long puzzles and this one took the cake what with the slowness. With a better, faster group, I would probably enjoy it.

What seems evident here is that we have played or run the more popular APs already, and we have some rather negative selection left. Most of the higher rated games are off the board. And many of what's left are lower rated. Not that the poll is the last word on if an AP is good or fun, just guidance.

I might suggest having each player take turns eliminating one and/or advocating for one, until we have a smaller number to deal with, unless you have better ideas.

Out with Outlaws of Alkenstar! I like more traditional fantasy. And there are still some pretty high ranking choices out there. If you would like you could toss the worst ranked APs to shorten the list. That would still leave plenty of choices.

Here then is an updated list. In addition to those mentioned, I also removed any that were ranked in the 40 or lower. We can deeper if the group agrees. Leaves 16 choices for now.

Crimson Throne (2) - this would be the PF1 updated version
Serpent's Skull (39)
Jade Regent (36)
Skull and Shackles (25)
Shattered Star (31)
Reign of Winter (22)
Wrath of the Righteous (21) - would run without Mythic rules
Mummy's Mask (20)
Hell's Rebels (3)
Ironfang Invasion (17)
Ruins of Azlant (33) - underwater
Return of the Runelords (16)
Agents of Edgewatch (35)
Blood Lords (32) - evil PCs
Sky King's Tomb (26) - mainly dwarves
Shades of Blood (not rated)

BOLD equals boosted by a player.

I had never seen this guide to APs before, this is awesome! I agree that Kingmaker, Seasons of Ghosts, Cirmson Throne, War For the Crown and Tyrant's Grasp are all top ten worthy. I think Rise of the Runelords deserves to be on that list.

Alvis: You said you want a more civilized setting. The ones that best align with that (from my memory) are Crimson throne and Edgewatch. I've completed both. Crimson throne is on (nearly) everyones favorite list. It's a fantastic story (I think I've played this three times now). Edgewatch you are essentially law enforcement. It's very thematic and some people have a problem with this theme. My group didn't and we had a fun time with it.

@Dr. Evil:

Here are my thoughts, don't eliminate them necessarily because of my comments.

Ran Jade Regent. Book 1 and 2 were fun. Starting in Book 3 my players lost interest and it became very meh for us.

Reign of Winter started fun, but fell off for my group in book four when it felt like a very railroaded path.

I ran Ironfang twice, one through through book four. It has a very Kingmaker-like mentality to it if you like being thrust out into the wilderness and trying to survive.

Played some of Azlant, couldn't get into the Lost style theme. Would be willing to try again if that's what people want.

I'm not a huge dwarf player, so if choose Sky King's Tomb I'll likely be an oddball out.

I'm not a preferred fan of evil players. Tried it in Hell's Vengeance and it wasn't my style.

I'd bump Shades of Blood, because:
*I haven't played it.
*I agree on three-party AP arcs and finding closure. Four books seems to be the place where most games die and can't make it past.
*Do we get to kill vampires?!

I'd be down for Shades of Blood, sounds interesting and is a 3 book adventure.

Another one I've always been interested in is Hells Rebels, though it is PF1E, not sure if we'd do it in 1E or try and convert it to 2E rules.

Shades of Blood sounds good to me.

I love the idea of doing an AP not half a decade behind everyone else! I think Shades of Blood would be a great choice!

I'm Alvis, best if I switch to my main profile, and not clutter my character posts.

Good point The Rising Phoenix, but I think I should have said less wilderness than Kingmaker. Shades of Blood has a smallish town of over 800 but otherwise appears to be ruins and wilderness. But if its popular I'm okay with it. Better than our "base" of pop two. Call me neutral on it for now.

I get the idea of Shades of Blood as most of you have not played it, but there are some things that work against it.

- it is a vampire fighting adventure, and as such, has horror elements, which at least one player would rather avoid
- it is mostly a mega dungeon exploration (the greater part of the last two books at least) which typically do not lend themselves well to PBP since combat and exploration take a lot of PBP time.
- it is not as narrative driven or socially interactive as other stories. IMO, that is the sweet spot of PBP, which allows more social and NPC interactions then normal TTRPG. Also, great character interaction and exposition is what attracted most of the players to be invited. I just worry it will get to be less than over time.

BUT, if that's the will of the group, I am happy to prepare and run it. Sounds like 4 votes for and one abstention.

I'd request that we don't play Reign of Winter, since I'm currently playing that already and we're up to Book 6. Other than that, I'm sort of indifferent to which AP we choose.

Thanks for the breakdown on it Dr. E, I didn't do as much research on it as you have. It being a new one I haven't played yet, I was unaware of the content.

All of your points make for valid arguments against it, I think I'll reconsider my suggestion that pushes us down this particular path.

I think we might be at an impasse on a 3-part adventure that meets our criteria and might need to expand to a six-parter

DM DoctorEvil makes good points, and I trust his judgement on the diffculties with Shades of Blood. As TRP said it does seem that while a three-part adventure isn't a bad idea most have been played by someone or are otherwise not ideal.

It seems that everyone has taken their turn, and I'll say to downvote Blood Lords for the same reason I gave before, I don't like to play evil characters.

I'll give my second nomination to Hell's Rebels. I'll give serious consideration to arguments that Crimson Throne would be better though. HR just seems a bit more polished but that based only on the commentary for what that is worth.

I wouldn't mind a 2e conversion of hells rebels if that is a direction people are for. Codanous mentioned above they'd be interested in that.

I'm OK with Hell's Rebels or Crimson Throne.

I'm also not very particular about which AP we play. It's a bit of decision paralysis for me, so I'm happy to move forward with any of them that we haven't already ruled out.

I would gladly run either Hell's Rebels or Crimson Throne. Crimson Throne is perhaps my favorite AP story but I don't know how many of you are familiar with it. Rising Phoenix has played it more than once. I have played part of the first book of Hell's Rebels via PBP but the GM was not very good and it fizzled quickly.

Provide a vote on these two choices and we will have a definitive answer tomorrow and can start on characters.

I'd vote for Hell's Rebels.

I have no real knowledge or experience of Crimson Throne.

I'd lean more towards Hell's Rebels only because I've heard of it more, and I know a more general synopsis of the story.

I would be fine with either, looks like they both take place in a city.

I vote for Hell’s Rebels.

I was going to vote for Crimson Throne because I remember from Tarondor's AP Guide what a top-tier AP it's regarded as. But then I looked at Hell's Rebels in the guide and see that it's practically just as good, which I'd forgotten. They are both urban-based APs with a good mix of rp and combat, and the overall story is similar from what I can tell.

I'd be happy with either one, and it's very close. However, I think I'll vote for Hell's Rebels primarily for one reason: While it looks like both APs encourage and reward strong roots to the city they take place in, one of the gripes about Crimson Throne is that books 4 and 5 take the PCs away from that city, whereas that doesn't seem to be an issue for Hell's Rebels.

That is a majority of votes, so it looks like the game is decided: Hell's Rebels.

I kind of anticipated that decision and went to Pathfinder Infinite and found a conversion guide that will help that process along a great deal. There was also this Hell's Rebels Players Guide for PF2 that has been modified from the original to fit the updated ruleset.

Using the Player' Guide, feel free to read a bit about Kintargo, Cheliax, and the situation on the ground there. Feel free to work on character concepts, either as a group or solo, and present what you find. Use a background a from the Guide or another suitable common background.

Any Paizo sourcebook or core rulebook is fair game for build items, but not 3PP or other adventure path/module content please. Consider that you may have to hide and keep a low profile from authorities as part of this adventure, so choosing an exotic ancestry in a town that is 90% human is going to make that more difficult, not impossible.

Please also choose a Reason to Protest that makes sense for your character and ties to your backstory. This choice will help ease you into the opening scenes.

LMK what other build questions you have, as I am sure there will be many. Good luck!

Excellent choice, looking forward to it.

I just added the new battlecry content to herolab and saw PF2e is up around 27 classes now, wowsers. Anyone going to try the new commander/guardian?

I'm leaning towards a swashbuckler or rogue, but could be convinced to pivot to a champion. Would like to hear what others are thinking.

I'm thinking Human Street Urchin Rogue (Thief) with a vengeance theme. Not going commander or guardian or warrior. But I wouldn't bar anything but the D or D. Divine or Dwarf, always play something different.

Ok, sounds good, I'll cross rogue off my list. I'll lean into a human Swashy then!

My initial idea was for a human champion actually. It's a character concept I've tried to play a couple times in the past, but the games always seemed to burn out quickly, so I feel like there's a lot left to explore. I'll have to read up on how the class works in 2e.

Since we're playing a converted 1st edition AP, does that mean these will not be official organized play 2e characters?

I’ll have to see. You don’t have to play the he official PFS character to get PFS credit. You can apply to any you want, as I recall. I’d offer PFS credit if there’s enough interested for a legal table.

I'm still kicking around a few ideas, I gravitate toward support casters though

I think I'm going to make an offensive sorcerer. Human, probably.

So, it looks like here's what people are thinking (but nothing definite yet):

Veshly - Human Rogue
The Rising Phoenix - Human Swashbuckler
Maxis Fairwind - Champion
Codanous - Undecided, gravitates toward support casters
Andostre - Human Sorcerer
miteke - ???

If all or most of us go human, we could all be related, perhaps all members of a disgraced royal house or something.

seems like a good group so far. Wonder if Cody would be a healer to help support that way?

Don't forget to use Backgrounds from the Players Guide if they work for you or the more common ones from Core etc if they do not.

I am a fan of tying the PCs together in some way, though its not required, nor do all have to have pre-game connections. It likely is better if you are residents of Kintargo or the Ravounel area, but again, not required.

I like connections myself and for the sake of verisimilitude, I think there should be a least a ring of strong trust among the characters.
We are playing rebel against the tyrannical empire (TE). TE's pretty much execute rebels so very few people would join up or be accepted by others that everyone did not have very good reasons to trust them with their lives and their families' lives. If we could forge bonds with two characters in a ring that might be best or all of them I that would lend more believability to the start. There may be ways around it bonds formed under pressure can work; I'm sure others could be thought of.

But let me illustrate:

The good of the above as it gives a strong motive for Celas to rebel with or without others. But it's weak in hooks, while tying in a major villain with some distance, it leaves little else to work with. Two weak hooks are knowing little about who Camilia was keep it open to be filled in but provides little guidance and Celas and her have undefined friends. Now some of those friends may be the other PCs but means working together to tie it all together.

Which is my overly longwinded point, we should see a way to tie us together in some way. Or some other ideas may work. I do like questions and comments.

@DM DoctorEvil Any ideas on Character Creation rules and variant rules you like or don't want to use. I my first cut on Celas I went completely standard no variant or optional rules.

There will be events that pull the PCs together as part of the story, but having some chain of pre-formed associations won't hurt anything.

People seem to like Free Archetype variant, so I will allow that. I am pretty big fan of the standard rules, so likely won't add any other variants to the mix. If you really want something you can ask but there should be plenty of options available without bending the standard.

Alvis/Celas - just so you know Barzallai Thrune has only been in Kintargo a week when the game opens, so he specifically is unlikely to be in your backstory, but House Thrune certainly could be.

If someone wants to be disgraced noble "child of kintargo" backgrounds, I don't mind being someone's butler that remained in service after the family sent in exile.

I could go with a name like Wulfred even.

That's my bread and butter, Codanous.

I've got a concept for a child of kintargo out to DM to clear, but I'm onboard. Once they give the okay I'll drop the rough concept here to flush out with you.

Okay revising concept slightly and I'm presenting this as Barzillai acting quickly on arrival to forestall "issues"...

I also realized that I use a classic fridging concept that's overused at best. I'll do a gender-swap on it to soften it up.

Celas waits patiently as the crowd builds, looking for counter protestors to take them of their troubling purses.

But the idleness brings the memory back, he cannot stop from reliving the night when Barzillai's thugs beat his father. Furious but knowing he have no chance against them he rushed to him after they left. He cradled him in his arms as he gasped, "He [cough] Barzillai Thune[gasp] for - your mother, [gurgle] Secrets kept -[sigh] Silenced ... " His father passes. Knowing how the "law" really works, he quickly sneaks away burning with anger and grief, informing Aunt Camilia to make herself scarce.

Note: His father's dying declaration is ambiguous at best so it could mean anything, but Celas is certain that the new Lord Mayor had his father killed to silence a Thune family scandal.

Celas quickly nicknamed Tiny later Tiny C grew up on the streets, never knowing who his mother was. His father Celas Beanpole, a very tall man with otherwise a Talorian look, and Aunt Camilia raised him saying he was the result of a passing affair, but his mother had high blood so saying anything would just bring trouble they didn't need. Dad was a laborer often working construction, Aunt Camilia worked any job that came her way but often performed as a street acrobat, sometimes with troupes using the distraction to add a little something extra to their purse. His father with Aunt Camilia and some friends manage to give the wild but talented young boy quite a lot of skills over time. Anything to survive in the shadows of a city over filled with them.

Handy Hank- alias, claims to be Hannis Sergio.

Appearance: Celas the Younger, Tiny C, Handy Hank and many other aliases, appears very ordinary. About an inch shorter than average height and a bit slender with features midway between Chalixian and Taldorian he blends well. He dresses in ordinary cloth similar to many a commoner sometimes wearing apparel usual for a given minor trade.

A bit more refined, a few connections would help to fill him out.