New GM Having Problems with Witch Power Player


Advice

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So I'm have been Roleplaying for a while now and decided to start a Pathfinder Game with a group of my friends. I asked them to start at level 7 characters (Since we always start at level 10 or level 3) and to take it easy on me. Most complied and made fairly straight forward characters while still being able to do some of the insane things experienced players can do, which I didn't mind (Why block them from having fun) but one particular player is turning my first DMing experience into a laughing stock.
He is a level 7 Witch Lawful Evil Witch (I thought I could trust him). I started with a pre-built adventure just to get feet wet before I threw them into the campaign I had prepared and to see what kind of stuff they could do so I could prepare. During the adventure, the Witch used the Slumber Hex against an Orc, who passed his Will Save, however, The Witch still said the Orc still falls asleep for 1 round. He said the same thing about Misfortune. When I asked how he said something about his feats allowed him too, however research and hours of searching afterwards reveals nothing that causes that.
Next session I attacked them with undead trying to avoid the Slumber, but he just Controlled Undead on them all. After the session I took a look at his character sheet and on the back of it he basically had listed
Undead: Control Undead
Humanoid: Slumber
Elemental: Banish
etc.

Which basically told me he had a plan to stop everything or prevent everything. And somehow he has insane Will Saves for them, and even when I save on the Hexes, they still take affect. Most encounters (Including simple Tavern RP) are basically coming down to "Do a Will Save against Slumber. Fail or pass? Coup da Gra, steal all the alcohol."
While the players appear to be having fun and a laugh from the Witch's antics, he seems to have all the bases covered. Even his back story basically amounts to "You screw with my Familiar and I'll kill everyone in the party." Because he knows that his Familiar (Which is an small Air Elemental) would easily fall to a Banish Spell (And either way, last time I took a piece of equipment away from the party to add a bit of challenge, they spent all there available time they had to complete their task shopping and getting their reagents pouch back)
Sorry about the wall of text, but essentially this comes down to two questions.
1. What's making him think that Slumber (Or actually any of his hexes for that mater) still take effect for 1 round if the target passes the save?
2. Do you have any advice to stop this menace?

Also as a side question: One of my players are a Damphire. During some sessions, she kills people and drinks their blood. After the third time in three sessions I told her to change her Alignment to Lawful Evil. However, all the other players argued that because she was Choatic Good, its' OK for her. What do you think?


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I'd say find grown ups to play with, but that would probably considered rude, so I'll just not say anything.

Dark Archive

Unless this is 3rd party stuff, you pass the save no effect. Plan and simple in the APG.

If there is some obscure ruling that allows this, use it against him and see how fun it is not having a chance to overcome an ability. Attack them with a Coven of Rival Swamp Hags all with sleep hex.


There are some Hex's that have an effect on a save (evil eye for one.) but its not only of them and not the most powerful Hex's. Slumber is certainly not one of the Hex's with an effect on a save.

-Edit- other advice other then stop his cheating. There are monsters that are immune to sleep that are not undead.

On Coup de Gra. Remember its a full round action (not saying you have done it wrong just being sure.) and is a lot less useful on things that can not be crited. Though that is a bit rare in PF.

In the end slumber is nice but to pull it off it takes the the Witch's standard action plus someones full round action.


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Eddiember wrote:

So I'm have been Roleplaying for a while now and decided to start a Pathfinder Game with a group of my friends. I asked them to start at level 7 characters (Since we always start at level 10 or level 3) and to take it easy on me. Most complied and made fairly straight forward characters while still being able to do some of the insane things experienced players can do, which I didn't mind (Why block them from having fun) but one particular player is turning my first DMing experience into a laughing stock.

He is a level 7 Witch Lawful Evil Witch (I thought I could trust him). I started with a pre-built adventure just to get feet wet before I threw them into the campaign I had prepared and to see what kind of stuff they could do so I could prepare. During the adventure, the Witch used the Slumber Hex against an Orc, who passed his Will Save, however, The Witch still said the Orc still falls asleep for 1 round. He said the same thing about Misfortune. When I asked how he said something about his feats allowed him too, however research and hours of searching afterwards reveals nothing that causes that.

Your issue is not trying to figure out what causes a monster to fall asleep for 1 round even if it makes its save. Your issue is you need to take control of your game. You shouldn't be on here asking us where the feat is. You need to ask him to open up the book and show you the exact page where it says he is allowed to do it and to explain exactly how it is done. If he can't do that, then it doesn't work. Period.

That's a rule you need to apply to all of the other rules issues that are bound to come up with that player.

Regarding the Dhampire, you're clearly not evaluating the killing/blood issue correctly since you haven't even thought it important enough to give us the most useful piece of information: who are these people she is killing? Random villagers/peasants? If so, she's basically a serial killer and is clearly chaotic evil, especially since there's plenty of other targets in the world that are actually evil she could be killing instead. Or is it baddies that your group is killing anyway? If so, then it's fine. Maybe she is a "Dexter" and is killing murderers/bandits/thieves/baddies just to take their blood? Closer call, but then I'd change to Chaotic good or chaotic neutral.


If they are killing innocents or even evil people without reason to do so bring the guards on them. When they inevitably start killing guards that's when you bring paladin back up in. See how well they do against 3 level 10 paladins all smiting evil on her. Basically show them that their behavior has repercussions. The rest of the party may either back off or join in.

But I would seriously before that tell them to show you exactly where it is next time they pull something like this.


Seems the majority of your problems come from the players, rather than from the chars.

As for the dhampir; the players are right, to an extent. There's no reason to change her to lawful evil if she claimed to be chaotic good. In my opinion, chaotic evil might be a nice fit, however.

As for the witch, it appears the player is cheating on top of max-maxing (sic!). As several other people here have pointed out, Slumber is totally negated on a Save. Plus, while it it possible to get the save DCs to hexes insanely high, I'd recommend you double check his numbers... or post his build. There are quite a few people here who are rather adept at dissecting character builds.

In game, if you wish to take things to a personal level (something I'd recommend to be careful with), you might give him a taste of his own medicine. A coven of Swamp Hags (with a level in Witch; don't forget the stat increase) team-targetting the obvious Witch with a cascade of hexes might be quite... educational.

Of course, you can also try things like Golems (who are quite resistant to several of his tricks).

Oh, and one final word: Don't allow him to hold the players hostage with his backstory. Call his bluff. Screw with his familiar.
If he proceeds to kill his companions in an act of revenge, let's see if the group still is laughing about the witch's antics.


1. As others already answered, it simply isn't possible. I'd suggest the player find a reference to whatever he thinks works. If he is an experienced player, this somewhat seem like an attempt to cheat. It might not, so you are probably better off not calling him on it :-) However, unless he can find a rule supporting his claim (and I doubt very much he can't), his abilities start working as stated in the rules.

2. He might have spells that are suitable for any situation. I expect so, since he is a prepared caster.
BUT, without some creative book-keeping, he sure as the Abyss is not going to have the all prepared at once. A lvl 7 witch with 22 int is going to have: 6 lvl-1, 5 lvl-2, 3 lvl-3 and 2 lvl-4 spells.

I suggest you ask him to actually write down, which spells he prepares each day (probably a standard list in most cases). Unless he knows exactly what to expect, he is not going to be able to have the perfect spell for each opportunity.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Having evil characters in your first campaign was probably not the best choice.

Sit the player down and tell him you won't put up with his cheating. Tell him it's not cool of him to do so and that you feel like you can't trust him anymore. Also know that Slumber has a limited range.

As for the dhampir, chaotic good means a character that's a rebel for a good cause. If they're killing innocent people and drinking their blood, that's a decidedly evil act. If they're bad guys, then it's okay.

The Exchange

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"Alright guys, I asked you to take it easy on me and you all decided that a witch who can basically destroy any encounter with insane saves on hexes and some weird ability to slumber even when it fails, and a good bloodsucker who works with the evil witch is Fine. I decided that, due to people not wishing to tone it down as asked, I won't be running a campaign anymore which is a shame....I had some good times planned. Thanks for coming and see you guys later."
They will stop being asses when they don't have a GM.


Really, the other players are alright (Other then the Dhamphir, but that was only a Roleplaying issue I wanted to ask more experienced GMs. Really, its' her first Roleplay experience so I'm going a little easier on her with the alignment change.), it's only this Witch Character, and even the guy behind that character normally isn't a jerk.
Actually, the way we left off the last session, its' the perfect time to screw with him.
I was looking over the suggestions you guys gave and I seen three things.
1. I'm going to use his backstory against him. The villain (Who coincidentally I wanted to be the Witch's father anyways due to his backstory) wanted him his son in the Village intending to Banish his familiar to send him on a rage.
2. I like the idea with the Coven of Swamp Hags, because the villain knowing his enemy would probably prepare in case his first plan failed.
3. I actually had Golems planned for later in the campaign, but I didn't think of them actually and I don't remember seeing constructs on the list.

Honestly, he knows (And according to my brother who's also in the group, the rest of the players know) that right now it's mostly me versus this player right now, so I'm pretty certain they won't mind if I pick on him next session. Thanks everyone


yea, evility and higher level as a new DM is really a kick in the keister. Players generally start at level 1-3 so they can get a feel for abilities, grow into them, and feed the character (backstory, RP, personality).

evility throws tables, and friendships for a loop, if not careful.
DM's have to learn all the jobs current.
each class/race abilities, PLUS DM'ing, combat, rp, noncombat encounters, crafting, skillchecks, DC's, npc crafting, learning their abilities, forcefeeding npc's. at lower levels it is simplish, but at higher levels learning all fot hat at once is a tad silly.

however, more useful help:
-look at the character sheets of your players, learn a bit about them so you can come prepared, if you can
-learn some backstory of the area/characters
-dont just do combat encounters
-


4. as unexpierienced GM playing an evil campaign with illigal PCs breaking the game might be an issue as well:P


Wasum wrote:
4. as unexpierienced GM playing an evil campaign with illigal PCs breaking the game might be an issue as well:P

Yeah. You live and you learn. That's why I wanted to ask some more experienced GMs for some advice. Besides the Witch, I (And everyone else I'm told) are have a lot of fun with the RP and I really don't want to see this group break up like so many others because of this one character. I've already approached this guy once (When I had to double-checked his Character sheet) and he's still acting out. Knowing the others are also a bit frustrated, I'm actually going to approach them and tell them what I'm going to be doing to against the Witch before I do it to make sure they are OK with it (Since from experience, I know players often don't like the GM actually aiming to kill a player [i probably said that wrong but I'm pretty certain you can understand what I mean]) And after if the Witch doesn't get the message, going to ask him to leave.


You said this guy is actually no jerk - so just talk to him about all that stuff. His illegal character and that you dont want such a powerhouse in your game because other players might not enjoy it then.


Some witch hexs are only allowed to be used on pcs/npcs once per day per person, slumber is one of these.. However there is a feat called Acursed Hex which allows for a second use, the next round, if the target passes his save.. He might be getting this confused.. Maybe hes just cheating but there is no ability out there that makes them sleep on a passed save.. Even for 1 round.. For cheating i would eat his familiar.. As far as the saves goes.. Did you allow him to take aility focus: slumber? Because its a monster feat and u dont technically have to allow those.. With that said a level 7, 20 int witch with ability fous: hex would have a dc-20 save to it.. If hes a dreamspeaker elf the dc would be another +1.. How is he banishing stuff at 7th level? Its a 6th level spell.. How's he controling undead? Its a 7th level spell and the feat command undead requires the ability to channel energy, which he doesnt have.. It seems to me this guy is cheating all over the board.. I would take him aside and ask for his character to be remade, properly and playe legally or i wouldnt allow him to play any longer.. Regardless i would destroy him familiar to teach a lesson.. Hes redic if he thinks 1 witch could defeat the rest of the party in pvp... Ok on too the Dhampir, is specifically states that drinking the blood of a sentient being is an evil act.. Regardless of if its ur enemy or a bad guy.. I would give her a warning thats she borderline alignment shift to CE.. Lastly this is ur campaign.. You cant let the players run over u and expect to have respect.. If they dont turn ard, tpk them with an unbeatable opponent and start over the clause, do it right or im not dming anymore... Hope this helps, sry abt the turds u play with..


Monster feats do say "Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct)." and banning monster feats on the base of one feat is a bit of overkill.

Though I can not help but wonder if Hexs even work with ability focus.

Prerequisite: Special attack.

So it really depends on what one counts as a Special attack. Though I find nothing on any class that is labeled as such. Only on monsters. Wait even on them its labeled "Special ability".

/sigh sloppy writing once again.


The player running the Witch is running an illegal, impossible character, plain and simple. He's either doing it because 1) he got sincerely confused regarding the rules or 2) he's choosing to deliberately take advantage of your relative inexperience. Personally I suspect the latter but I don't know the guy so I won't make judgements... the good news is that in either case its the easiest fix in the world - audit his character sheet. Calculate his saves, his hit points and the DC on his spells. Make him show you the rules that say he can do the things he's trying to do (I assure you he won't be able to) and make him write down his spells each day and cross them off when he casts them.

Its your responsibility as a GM to the rest of the group to make sure this guy is playing by the same rules that they and the foes they fight are.


1) Always have a copies of your player's character sheets. The best way to plan out challenging but not impossible encounters is to have the player abilities available for review. This also helps you catch cheaters.

2) The witch is clearly not abiding by your original instructions to take it easy on you. Since you've already accepted and played some sessions with the character it's a bit late to reject the character entirely. You should discuss the power level of the character with your player and see if he'll volunteer to either tone it down or play something else.

3) Generally speaking taking stuff (gear, pets, familiars, ect) away from players is something they won't like. You can get away with it as a temporary plot device but you should expect them to spend time trying to restore / replace their "stuff". If you want the lack of an item to be important, I suggest adding a pressure element that prevents the party from immediately looking for a replacement item.

4) We need more info on your Dhampir. If the killings are random murders then dump her to evil.


Even if you manage to sort out this mess about sleep on a successful save do what my gm did and ask the player to not take slumber. It is not only very strong but in addition to that it makes a lot of fights boring for the other players.

Witch pc: I slumber him
GM: He faild his save and is sleeping.
Other pc: *Yawn* And another uneventful boss fight. I think I just hit him with my sword.
With pc: Why don't you CDG him?
Other pc: That would be boring.

I have, instead taken misfortune. that's strong, too but at least it's not save or die (which slumber more or less is) and the enemy may still do some things.


Damocles Guile wrote:

The player running the Witch is running an illegal, impossible character, plain and simple. He's either doing it because 1) he got sincerely confused regarding the rules or 2) he's choosing to deliberately take advantage of your relative inexperience. Personally I suspect the latter but I don't know the guy so I won't make judgements... the good news is that in either case its the easiest fix in the world - audit his character sheet. Calculate his saves, his hit points and the DC on his spells. Make him show you the rules that say he can do the things he's trying to do (I assure you he won't be able to) and make him write down his spells each day and cross them off when he casts them.

Its your responsibility as a GM to the rest of the group to make sure this guy is playing by the same rules that they and the foes they fight are.

This.

If he can't show you, chapter and verse, where he got the ability to do that with his hexes, the obvious answer is that he can't. He either misread it, or is cheating.

Witches, like most of the newer classes, can get pretty complicated, so it's easy to misinterpret what they can and can't do. Just ask him to show you where he gets that. I'll be he can't.

Shadow Lodge

remember one thing... if his minnion kicks him in the ribs the sleep hex end IMMEDIATELY.

issue resolved.

evil eye is mind effecting, so equip your bad guy with a protection from evil/lawful spell and stop that crap at the gate.

remember you have many, MANY options as a gm to challenge anything a player can bring to the table, you just need to get more familiar with the system. it will come with time.


The player is incorrect. Invite him here if need. I am not busy today.


New to game should definitely not start at level 7. Should start at level 1 so you and they can learn the system together. I would also so CRB only to start with.

I would also never allow evil for a first game. Bost groups of players, I would never allow it.

The player has to be able to show you why something works not just say it does. If it seems even slightly wonkey say, "show me."

If they are actually using attacking everyone in town to steal everything, they should have experienced bounty hunters if not whole army units chasing them.

I don't get too worked up over the alignment things. But tell them to remember if they can do really nasty things and it counts as good, that means alot of people will be doing really nasty things to them and they shouldn't realisticly object because it is good.

Also was it drinking blood from a living victim or corpse? Animal or intelligent being? That also makes a difference for most people.


TheSideKick wrote:


evil eye is mind effecting, so equip your bad guy with a protection from evil/lawful spell and stop that crap at the gate.

That doesn't work for since evil eye isn't mind control in any way.


Damocles Guile wrote:

The player running the Witch is running an illegal, impossible character, plain and simple. He's either doing it because 1) he got sincerely confused regarding the rules or 2) he's choosing to deliberately take advantage of your relative inexperience. Personally I suspect the latter but I don't know the guy so I won't make judgements... the good news is that in either case its the easiest fix in the world - audit his character sheet. Calculate his saves, his hit points and the DC on his spells. Make him show you the rules that say he can do the things he's trying to do (I assure you he won't be able to) and make him write down his spells each day and cross them off when he casts them.

Its your responsibility as a GM to the rest of the group to make sure this guy is playing by the same rules that they and the foes they fight are.

Agreed. Cite the fact that as a new gm you may not be familiar with that rule so he should show you where it is written.


Does Dismissal work on familiars? That seems rather incredibly bad for any witch so stupid as to take 'Improved' Familiar.

And if it does work, is there any way to get it BACK?


In my experience, 99% of all in-game problems can be solved with out of character talking. Grab some pre-game lunch with the guy, talk about videogames, life, and his character, and then figure out a way you can make it fun for everyone. MOST people will change what they're doing if they have reason to suspect it's ruining other people's fun.

You should definitely give us an update, by the way! I enjoy living vicariously through people that have groups that they can gripe about, ever since our group broke up. D:


Yeah, wow. That Witch player's a cheaty cheater. I know by now you must be getting overloaded with all the information you've been getting thrown at you, but I really needed to chime in on this one.

My advice on the subject:

  • Don't descend to the level of directly trying to kill him. That's just bad GM'ing. Feel free to throw encounters out that can challenge the party's abilities, but just deciding to kill him...frankly, that ain't a fair fight. You control their very universe, so once you've decided he's toast, that's it. No fun.

  • Do audit that character sheet. There are so many rules violations going on, he's clearly either very confused or blatantly cheating, so something must be done and it's your job to do it. Just go ahead and politely let him know that you don't understand how his abilities work, and so you need him to sit down with you and explain each one in detail, pointing out each rule as you go just to make sure you're both on the same page. This is totally fair to do, and you're not asking him to do anything he shouldn't be able to. I can pretty much guarantee that some of the things he claims he can do are not going to work out the way he's said they do, and I'd be damn surprised if he can actually get his save DCs as high as he's saying.

  • As for that ultimatum of his about not messing with his familiar...screw it. That's a roleplay issue, and not your fault. The enemies in your campaign have every reason to go after the witch's familiar, and he has no reason they shouldn't. If he freaks out after that, that's the party's problem to deal with, not yours, and it's just a jackass character decision on his part.

Next, here are the most blatant rules violations that I can see without getting an actual build of the character to point at.

  • Control Undead and Banishment are both not only too high a level for him to be casting, they're also not even on his spell list. He could be getting Control Undead from the Plague patron, but not until 14th level, and I have no idea where Banishment is coming from.

  • That Slumber thing is clearly nuts. Maybe he's found some weird third party feat or something that allows for it, but I would demand that he show you where it says he can do that, and probably just disallow it should it turn out to be third party.

Finally, here are a few things you can do to change the situation if by some weird backwards miracle all the rules pan out.

  • Elves are immune to sleep. Make an organization of elves that are pissed off at the party and go to town.

  • The bane of all enchantment casters: the Monk. Stupid high DCs, meet super high saves. Grapple him, then ruin his day.

  • That Dhampir situation is weird too. As someone else said, it mostly matters who they're killing off. If she's doing it too baddies, that's a grayer area - if she's just murdering random innocents, that's blatantly evil. In that case, warn her that if she keeps it up her alignment will change, party objections be damned. Also, why Lawful? Killing people isn't terribly lawful. Just leave her wherever she feels like on the Lawful/Chaotic scale, but definitely shift her down from Good.


Arbane the Terrible wrote:

Does Dismissal work on familiars? That seems rather incredibly bad for any witch so stupid as to take 'Improved' Familiar.

And if it does work, is there any way to get it BACK?

If the familiar gained through improved familiar is an outsider then yes it can be banished.

I don't know of any way to take it back.


First step: sit down with the player over lunch and have him point out the rules he's (ab)using, as suggested above.
[Next time, limit the books your players can use. If it's not in book A, B or C, that you all personally own, they cannot use it. They are welcome to donate books, of course.]

Second step: if he does it again, DO banish his familiar and point out that's the warning.

Third step: banish the character, aka a demigod kills him in his sleep and he gets to reroll.

Fourth step: banish the player. Let's hope it doesn't get that far.

Grand Lodge

Theres some good advice in this post chain and theres some you should probably avoid. Talking to the player is always the best route. The player may simply be mistaken and not cheating. As a gm, you really should give the players the benifit of erroring that way. This prevents GM verses Player.

GM verses Player is basically saying im the boss and you have to do what I want all the time. Nobody wants to play under a tyrant. Messing with the players character as punishment is another example. It sets up a conflict between people and personalities begin to clash, feelings get hurt and friendships are lost.

As a GM, your pretty much responsible for knowing the majority of what classes being played can do. You cant know everything. At the table, its ok to admit openly that your unfamiliar with a particular rule and would like to see something in the book. Asking gently for the player to locate something while you continue on is perfectly fine. The phrasing of your question can be the difference between a hostile player and one that is excited to get to show off their knowledge. Shoot for the excited.

Just like there is GM verses Player there is also GM verse characters. One of the trap many gms fall into is combating everything a character can do. Basically, this is the gm style of 'oh, you have invisibility now and everything has see invisibility'. It works and is effective at one thing: Making the players feel like their choices in character development are pointless. Players react to this as if its GM verses Player and may start taking it personal. Breaking abilities sometimes is great, breaking them always is really bad.

My opinion of GMing is probably pretty obvious by this point. The GM is there to bring a world to life and give the players a fun experience all within the confines of a rule system (in this case Pathfinder). The GM has to sacrifice his own drive to be a player and win. Winning kills (hp or abilities) the characters which is no fun for players.

Specifically to the witch: its a powerful debuffing class. Theres not a lot that can be done about that fact. When created properly, it should be able to do something about everything. Just make sure its legal.

Specifically to the blood drinking: evil is what you define it as. If you consider the characters actions evil, warn the player, wait for it to continue, then slide the player one step towards the alignment you find appropriate. The player has to make up their mind of what they want to play alignment wise within the rules you set for your world. Be clear and consistant.

Putting that all into perspective on what you wrote, I think your on the right track and you picked up on something fishy. Talk to your players as adults and try to keep a civil conversation on what you think evil means and what the rules mean. If it continues, consider talking to the player more pointedly. It if still continues, consider asking the player to leave or step down as GM.


I would say the witch is cheating, and if you read the dampurs drink blood ability it says that drinking the blood of a intelligent being is a evil act so yes she is evil. Now if she dose not want to be evil change her aliment to CN an rp the the good things she is doing to keep from going evil.


Despite the absolute hate some people have over the fact that there are acts that are evil in and of themselves, as Heaggles pointed out the Blood Drinker feat says in black and white that feeding on unwilling intelligent evil creatures is an evil act. It also says that the target must be alive when the Dhampir feeds off of it. Which means no killing and drinking.

At the very least her behavior indicates a selfishness indicative of CN. By no means are her actions good, according to the rules.


The solution here seems obvious. If an enemy makes the save against Slumber have the enemy not fall asleep. Just tell the player that the power doesn't work. That might seem unfair if this was a power which was actually in the book, but since it isn't why let it work? Just say no!

FakeHealer wrote:
They will stop being asses when they don't have a GM.

Honestly, dude, you know we'll never stop.


Yeah, there's only a few hexes that have an "even if you fail" clause. Slumber is not one of them. The stuff with undead and outsiders depends on level. At level 7 you're only going to have banishment if you have it in a scroll. I'd double check the character for feats and whatnot. It sounds to me like they're subbing in feats situationally which simply isn't right.


Part of the problem is allowing an evil character into a group of good characters. Starting at 7th level may not have been the best.

Clearly the witch player is either working with your lack of familiarity with the witch class or does not understand what he reads.


Shalafi2412 wrote:

Part of the problem is allowing an evil character into a group of good characters. Starting at 7th level may not have been the best.

Clearly the witch player is either working with your lack of familiarity with the witch class or does not understand what he reads.

Right.

Restart @ 2nd* level. Limit the books to Core & APG. No Evils.

The idea of turning on him is absolutely the wrong thing. You can’t solve a OOC problem IC, and you can’t fix a cheater and spotlight hog by concentrating the spotlight on him. All that stuff you mentioned? That’s just gravy for that sort of player.

Trust me.

* Many DM’s like 1st level, but I find it’s too easy to kill a PC with a lucky crit. 3rd level works also.


if this hasn't been said, he did them wrong.

The only hex off the top of my head that takes effect for one round if an target saves is Evil Eye. Otherwise, they avoid the effect entirely and cannot be affected by the hex for 24 hours from the same player. So unless some obscure 3rd party feat (which sounds overpowered and shouldn't be allowed), they do not suffer any other effects except by evil eye. Also make sure if he cackles, keep note he just used a move action.

Witches don't get Control Undead unless by patron, which is the Plague patron and at level 14... Or they are a Grave Walker. He can't get Dismissal or Banishment period. He needs a magic item for that.
--
As for the dhampir drinking blood and not shifting alignment, drinking blood is a chaotic EVIL act. If she constantly does it, that WOULD shift her alignment to at minimum Chaotic Neutral if not Chaotic Evil, depending on her actions. If she does do mostly good actions, but there's that blood sucking cause, she'd probably be Chaotic Neutral. If she does mostly neutral or evil things, Chaotic Evil.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There is nothing that is insurmountable here except for one thing. You as a GM have to take control of your game. It's not about being a tyrant. It's about it being your job as a GM.

A lot of people have touched on areas that should be focused on.
1) Know your PCs. I've started auditing PCs between every level up. I just have them send me electronic copies. If it takes you a while to look up their character abilities, that's fine. You learn more about the rules while doing it. You MUST know your PCs backward and forward and the rules behind them. It's essential, especially if you are going to be designing your own encounters. If you find things that are not correct, teach it as a learning expereince between GM and Player not a adversarial one.

2) It's never GM versus the players. Players like to say such. I always curse when I miss, as a GM playing a bad guy. Or they down a BBEG. When they say something along the lines of "Our GM just wants us to die." I give them a wink and a nod, and reply, "It's all a part of the illusion." GMs can kill players at any time. It is never GM v. the players. The GM will ALWAYS win. If not, you are doing it wrong. But, of course one is doing it wrong if it ever gets to that point.

3) GMs control alignment in Pathfinder. It's not a player democracy. This goes back to No. 1. Take control of the game. Use Rule 0, when neeed. In this case, it's not:
From Pathfinder SRD: Changing Alignments

Pathfinder SRD wrote:

Alignment is a tool, a convenient shorthand you can use to summarize the general attitude of an NPC, region, religion, organization, monster, or even magic item.

Certain character classes in Classes list repercussions for those who don't adhere to a specific alignment, and some spells and magic items have different effects on targets depending on alignment, but beyond that it's generally not necessary to worry too much about whether someone is behaving differently from his stated alignment. In the end, the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment, based on the descriptions given previously and his own opinion and interpretation—the only thing the GM needs to strive for is to be consistent as to what constitutes the difference between alignments like chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. There's no hard and fast mechanic by which you can measure alignment—unlike hit points or skill ranks or Armor Class, alignment is solely a label the GM controls.

It's best to let players play their characters as they want. If a player is roleplaying in a way that you, as the GM, think doesn't fit his alignment, let him know that he's acting out of alignment and tell him why—but do so in a friendly manner. If a character wants to change his alignment, let him—in most cases, this should amount to little more than a change of personality, or in some cases, no change at all if the alignment change was more of an adjustment to more accurately summarize how a player, in your opinion, is portraying his character. In some cases, changing alignments can impact a character's abilities—see the class write-ups in Classes for details. An atonement spell may be necessary to repair damage done by alignment changes arising from involuntary sources or momentary lapses in personality.

Players who frequently have their characters change alignment should in all likelihood be playing chaotic neutral characters.

Once you get control of the game and audit the characters, I think a lot of the other problems you are having will take care of themselves. A GM must be assertive or the game develops into Chaos. Players who are too immature to listen or appreciate an assertive GM that guides the game and keeps it fair for all, are playing the wrong game.

Scarab Sages

I would also recommend not making the situation more adversarial that it already is by specifically and obviously targeting his character with with nerfing tactics and encounters. This could easily have the side effect of making your situation with this player and his character worse. Address the core of the problem. Treating the symptoms without addressing the sickness will simply allow it to fester.

Tam


Eddiember wrote:


Next session I attacked them with undead trying to avoid the Slumber, but he just Controlled Undead on them all. After the session I took a look at his character sheet and on the back of it he basically had listed
Undead: Control Undead
Humanoid: Slumber
Elemental: Banish
etc.

A 7th-level witch doesn't have access to the control undead spell (the Plague patron grants it to a 14th-level witch). With the right patron the witch can have access to the command undead spell, but that one only works against a single undead per casting.

As for the anti-elemental plan; banish seeming is a 5th-level spell, meaning the witch shouldn't have access to it for another 2 levels.

I think there may be several things wrong with this particular character, unless it has other ways to gain these abilities. Perhaps you should post the entire character sheet here?


OP, how well do YOU know the rules?


just as a pointer, elves and half elves are immune to magic sleep, are not undead, and arent outsiders. use elves.


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You, so I approached the Witch Player and asked about these things and to see his character sheet. Turns out this guy had a whole mess on his hands with stuff with wrong durations, wrong durations, his spells were wrong, his skill points were all screwed up (In terms of he didn't even add his Int modifier to the amount he had) It it seemed like I was looking at a completely different character sheet the what he had when I asked him to show me his after the actual game. I honestly don't know what the heck is up with this guy, but I basically told him to get his act together. I'm going to be meeting with him sometime soon to remake his character properly and try to figure out what's happening, cause he knows how to make a character, and has two other Roleplay Groups as well. I'm predicting that it maybe the theory that he's trying to take advantage of a new GM, but like I mentioned before, I know the guy and he's really not a jerk (Or at least I'm pretty sure he's not) so I'm generally just confused. If he doesn't get his act together, I'm just going to have to ask him to leave the group, cause I'm just getting fustrated, and if the others object to it, I'm just going to break up the game.
Thanks for the help guys.


Also, in terms of the question how well I know the rules, I know most the rules fairly straight forward (However I still have some difficulties asking for the right Skill Check to make when the characters are investigating and examining stuff) but I haven't been or had a player I played with play as a Witch so having a Witch in the party is foreign territory to me.


Wasum wrote:
I'd say find grown ups to play with, but that would probably considered rude, so I'll just not say anything.

ditto


And as for why I started at level 7 for my first campaign, it was mostly due to player interest. The group I am in often times either start a campaign at either level 2, or level 10, meaning either on a regular bases the party normally encounters simple problems like a town being harassed by a tribe of orcs or the whole country being threaten by a dragon or something like that. Most of the other GMs the group had were unimaginative so the players got bored of the story and eventually started interrupting and getting distracted. At level 7 I'm getting the group to encounter things they haven't before and the group actually seems to be having a good time, thus in the long run making my job as DM slightly easier. Like I mentioned before, I asked the players before I started just to take it easy on me because it was my first GMing experience, and for the most part they complied. And I don't remember if I mentioned this (And I'm to lazy to scroll up and look at my first post), I started with a premade module just get my feet wet before I got into the stuff prepared (Hence why they encounter orcs in the first place) to make sure I was prepared for the level or if I had to replan. So all and all I felt fairly prepared for the fact they were level 7, its just I couldn't get past the Witch (Who appears to have been taking advantage of my Newbie status)


Sit with him, re-skin him, keep a copy of his sheet or write his spells/abilites down and keep tabs on him. I had/have a simliar player on our group who tends to kind of cheat or neglect to look at how spells work and just tries to get them to do whatever he wants. It makes life hard for the GM but its the only way I can deal with him (he does the same to other GM's too with other game systems we play but he is a good player overall you just have to keep an eye on things).

I had exactley the same problem as you with his witch pc a year or so ago, I think he just had no real way of knowing how to play it properly. He's now playing a Storm druid and apart form the odd spell here and there I have to keep tabs on he's pretty damn awesome.

I think the same as everyone else, the guy is being a jerk, playing on the fact you are a newbie and trying to see what he can get away with, once you reign him in (be nice though and try and help him build the witch again it helps, if you start having a go he's lickley to get all huffy and argumnetative)things should be better, you will still need to keep tabs on him though.


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This is why Herolab is such a great product. It can print out what things do.

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