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Cyrad wrote:

I don't really see what it would add to the game to warrant the needless complication. In the end, ranged fighters would have an even greater advantage.

That setup works in X-Wing because it helps simulate a dog fight and the only thing units can do is move and shoot.

Gonna agree with Cyrad on this. The lack of "realism" in the game exists for game balance. With a system like that you are proposing, melee martials become game-breakingly bad options to the point that being one is tantamount to a suicide by kiting. Melee is bad enough without needing to nerf the only thing it can do well (which is kill small numbers of targets at short distances).

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Back in 3.5 Larloch had over 40 ioun stones floating around his damn head. How he saw anything through that mess was anyone's guess.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Brotato wrote:
Lemartes wrote:

So two questions.

1. Is the new summoner in everyway weaker? There is nothing that it does better?

2. Forget it less fun? To me less evolution points/fixed points seem less creative and thus less fun.

From what people have so far mentioned, it seems to be a 100% unabashed no holds barred nerf. Whether it was needed or not is debatable (most vocal people on the boards hated it, from the looks of things.)
I've also seen a bunch of vocal people who liked it. It seems like a wash. The people who didn't like it have posted more times each, though, whereas the people who liked it expressed their opinion and then usually that was it. Given the cool new powers you could never get before (like lay on hands for agathions, one of my favorites!), it's more of redirecting the eidolon, rather than a "100% unabashed no holds barred nerf." Certainly it reins in the most powerful options, but some options weren't changed, so depending on what you wanted to do, you might find that one of the eidolons is actually more effective for it now (with the unique powers).

I don't disagree, the unique options people have mentioned have me cautiously optimistic for my current Jade Regent character (whose Eidolon was always intended to be an emissary of Desna) since they seem less "pouncing natural attack is 100% the most optimal way to go." I suppose I'm more worried that there's still very little room to make a "support" eidolon (ie, one that isn't so heavily weighted towards the physical ability scores). I'll just have to wait and see when I get the PDF on the 29th.

Lemartes wrote:

So two questions.

1. Is the new summoner in everyway weaker? There is nothing that it does better?

2. Forget it less fun? To me less evolution points/fixed points seem less creative and thus less fun.

From what people have so far mentioned, it seems to be a 100% unabashed no holds barred nerf. Whether it was needed or not is debatable (most vocal people on the boards hated it, from the looks of things.)

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Assault Leader is a 1/day ability. Hardly worth a talent even if you allow for intentional misses. It's a trap talent, I'd suggest pretending it doesn't exist.

If it's not banned, Master Summoner Summon Good Monster and Superior Summoning. You have a horde of bodies to soak hp damage for your party, giving effective HP. SM III gives you psuedo healing with at will Aid. Almost every monster you would want to summon anyway starting at SM V (Bralani) will have some form of healing SLA. Get a Ring of Agathion Summoning at 17 and you're spitting out 1d3+1 Leonals, giving you over 1000 hp of healing in less than 1 minute's worth of actions, and then have the Leonals themselves to soak, battlefield control, or carpet bomb with fireballs for 16 minutes.

Allowing the player to bypass one of the major balancing aspects of First World Summoner (that of the fey type eidolon, significantly reducing the eidolons combat capability) for free is inherently a bad idea, balance wise. By comparison, to become roughly equivalent to a full fiend or celestial, a Summoner must spend roughly 12 evolution points: 7 for Celestial/Fiendish appearance, 5 for DR 10/alignment, and 1 for Magic Attacks.

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Keep Calm and Carrion wrote:
Tiaximus wrote:

Any class that knows how many hit points my BBEG has at any given time is going to give me a sad face.

"What, you wanted him to be a recurring villain? Well, I know he started the round with 58 hit points and the barbarian just raged his face with a 62 point crit. Too bad, bud. Maybe he has a twin."

Gygax forbid players actually achieve a flawless victory, right? It’s a GM’s right to keep a fight going until you judge they’ve suffered enough.

But seriously, if Paizo ever publishes a class or archetype that forces GMs to roll their dice in the open, I will play that and nothing else forevermore.

They already did, it was Dual Cursed Oracle with Misfortune. (Need to be able to see the d20 roll to know if you want to force the reroll or not.)

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Night_Shade wrote:

After I posted I saw a few others on this as well, personally I don't like it. I always treated SA as a weapon penetrating the body and striking vital orgns inside therefore delivering more damage. It is kind of wierd that before the weapon even penetrates a critter it already does damage :-(

Like the example with the werewolf, if you are using a normal dagger which will not penetrate the skin of the critter due to its DR 10/silver, I find it that because you plan on punturing the spleen that it now can penetrate the skin and get to the juicy parts inside.

I know I can always rule 0 this in my games if I want, but just find it ironic that a rogue can penetrate the skin of a critter that is almost toatlly immune to that type of damage (as in the example with a dagger and a +2 strength).

Just my opinion, even though rules say otherwise :-)

Even in folklore, damage reduction didn't always mean that you literally couldn't break the skin, it just normally meant that the wound was far less serious to that creature. For instance bullets didn't bounce off of werewolves in folklore, they just healed so incredibly fast that it made no difference. Off tangent, they were also immune energy damage in folklore, which they are not in PF. Anyway, the DR issue is further supported by the Universal Monster rule entry:

Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

So we see that a character with sneak attack just knows more effective ways of dealing damage to things with anatomies, and doesn't break the fact that those attacks are just less serious to certain things.

As far as other riders, the case can be made that if you don't penetrate DR with a poisoned weapon, the wound is healed so fast that the poison literally has no time to make it into the bloodstream, and is therefore ineffective.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Brotato wrote:
In YOUR endo!
That was bound to happen eventually.

Indeed, I felt it was necessary to whip it out right at the start so that the tension was no longer there.

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Riders do not activate if the damage needed to attach them does not beat DR. The most common form of this is poison. If you are attacked by a poisoned weapon (or a creature with poison), and that poison is injury based, then you must take at least one point of damage before the "rider" (poison) can affect you.

Sneak Attack USED to be like this in 3.0 (and maybe 3.5 as well) but has since been changed in Pathfinder to simply be increased damage as long as certain conditions are met, and so that damage is added to weapon damage before reducing for DR. Furthermore, sneak attack damage is always of the same type as the weapon used to deliver it (sneak attack with a ray of frost is cold damage, for example).

EDIT: So in your example, the rogue would deal 11-5=6 damage to the zombie, not zero.

In YOUR endo!

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If the proper conditions are met, Contingency will activate, triggering the Teleport spell, which will then fail if within the Dimensional Lock (Anchor is used to prevent extraplanar travel in one creature, not an area).

Dustyboy wrote:

It still counts for caster level though right? so arcane strike still works.

Prereq for Arcane Strike is "ability to cast arcane spells," which mundanes with SLAs no longer count for. This is different from having a specific spell as a prereq, such as with Dimensional Agility. There, having an SLA of Dimension Door qualifies.

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
A few weeks ago, one of my player brought in a defense-focused character with really high AC... One of the enemies rolled an 16 and 18 and still couldn't hit him... But he realized the guy with a shield could only cause minor damage, so he moved on and started attacking the other PCs, who were easier to hit and could hit harder.

That's how it should work. (Assuming the enemy was reasonably intelligent.) But for the next combat, the new enemy should take those same couple swings against him.

Also - one can certainly overdo the defense builds. One's offense should remain respectable.

Unless said next enemy has been made aware of the party's capabilities somehow.

rorek55 wrote:

Looking through my bestiary CR20+ monsters have an average of ~+38 on their attack bonuses. An SnB fighter worth his salt should be rocking an AC of about 48, that's means its a little bit under a 50/50, where as Mr. Two handed is pretty much getting smashed.

Another thing, this may not mean much but shield bash- free bullrush attempt is nice. I've seen it used to great effect when the SnB fighter was 'ignored' and they tried to get to the reach cleric :3. Talk about an aggravated bad guy haha. My favorite is wielding that heavy shield in the main hand and off handed a light weapon (sush as a gladius, or short sword, or kukri).

Run around beating people with your shield!

I see the points though.

Here's a friendly shout out to duel wielding shields! Hah.

A pouncing Barbarian is going to have an attack bonus over +40 before you even take magical augmentation into account. Most of those monsters have an AC around 36. That two handed barbarian is going to obliterate them if they ever get into charge range, and have no need for any AC at all.

Jeff and BigDT have basically already stated everything I was going to say, so I'll just say:

Brotato 2014 wrote:
Brotato 2013 wrote:
DM is not a great counter to Invis. Let's stop pretending like it is.

I did the math, I was overestimating how much MORE healing you would get but it's also in just over half the time

17th level summoner, ring of agathion summoning (leonal as SM8)

1d3+1 Leonals (avg 3)

3 heals 300hp
9 cure critical 4d8+14 avg 32*9 288
21 Lay on Hands 7d6 avg 24.5*21 514.5

1102.5 hp healed in 11 rounds

Then there's still the Leonals themselves running around for a little under 16 more minutes.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Cevah wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
How is healing OP?

A 20th level witch healing about 800hp for the price of a 1st level spell. This could be considered OP.

Do you see it as OP?


At 20th level? No, no I do not.

I agree with DS, honestly. A 17th level Summoner with a ring of agathion summoning can heal for an average of almost 3 times that amount in a much shorter time, and still have 1d3+1 Leonals to cast all sorts of other fun things (at will fireballs, 3 walls of force per leonal, etc). And that's for ~1/14th of one class ability.

Wodaen wrote:

Thank you for the suggestions. Now to determine if I want to keep my plan to use #1 below.

1) School understanding(elemental arcane-void wizard-reveal weakness) and use still spell + dimension door for grapple
or to
2) grab the School understanding (conjuration-teleportation) to deal with grapple

I would still grab still spell at some point anyway, but option 2 is more flexible, while option 1 is nice for utility. I'm already a brown-fur so I'll be very utility heavy and may not need to reveal weakness.

Not trying to hijack the thread so...

TL;DR : For new people like me: Arcanist Dim. Slide is NOT a grapple release, but use still spell + dimension door(somatic componenets not allowed in grapple), or School understanding(conjuration-teleportation).

Dimension Door only has a Verbal Component. The reason Dimension Door doesn't work well as a grapple escape is that the concentration check to cast a spell in a grapple is 10+Grappler's CMB+Spell Level. This is often a difficult check to pass, as CMB can quickly get out of control against things with grab or NPCs built to grapple.

Wodaen wrote:
So for those of us just starting out...How does a caster NORMALLY escape grapple? I'm playing an arcanist and planning out the exploits I'll be taking when I get to them. I had read some guide suggesting Dimensional Slide get's you out of grapple but my DM says no. So what DO I do when that comes up? Currently I'm assuming I use Still Spell + something to drop the grapple.

Dimensional Slide doesn't get you out of a grapple because you cannot move if you are grappled unless you become the "grappler" or escape the grapple.

Easiest way to escape a grapple is to be a Teleportation subschool Conjurer and use Shift. Su ability that simply functions as dimension door within sight range. As long as you can see the spot you want to go, you go there, and there is nothing the grappler can do to stop it.

Spirited Charge only works when charging while mounted. The way pummeling charge works you'd want as many attacks as possible at as high a BAB as possible, so a monk archetype that doesn't lose flurry with Horn of the Criosphinx is likely mathematically a better option than MoMS (which still takes two swift actions to get going at the dip level.)

Bonus should be around 10+Dex right now. If he has a 20 in Dex, then yes, he could have a +15

Diviner bonus +2
Improved Init +4
Familiar +4
Trait +2
Dex Variable.

Edit: This for a Diviner Wizard, as previously mentioned. The Divination school specialization gives 1/2 Wizard level as an Initiative bonus. As to how bad it could get, the answer is very bad (A level 20 Diviner gets +10 to Init just from class abilities as well as treating all initiative rolls as a natural 20 and always acting in the surprise round even if not aware).

Name: Adawulf Vhiski
Race: Human
Classes/levels: Sacred Slayer of Shizuru 7
Adventure: The Hungry Storm
Location: Path of Agan-hei
Catalyst: A startled Kimandatsu
The Gory Details: Kimandatsu, who had escaped from Ravenscraeg in the previous volume, attacked the caravan. The Sacred Slayer, who was wielding Suishen, Air Walked to her, crit and half-healthed her. He was suddenly no longer a nuisance but a threat, so she switched to her tetsubo, and summarily crit him back, taking him from 60% health to -20. x4 hurts. What followed was an epic scramble as my foo lion managed to hold a grapple on her long enough for a hound archon to take up Suishen and attack, critting her yet again and taking her down before she could fly away.

One of the most memorable encounters I've ever experienced.

So the group I'm with just finished the tower with Katiyana. We are a NG Master Summoner of Desna with Summon Good Monster, Sacred Slayer Inquisitor of Shizuru, and a Mysterious Stranger 1/Ninja X. We were level 8 during this encounter. My summoner had 3 hound archons summoned from previous encounters in the tower (2 just from the remorhaz on the floor below).

Round 1
Summoner: Dimension Door all three party members to ledge with Katiyana.
Ninja: 3 Focused Aim sneak attack shots, 91 damage
Sacred Slayer: Bane outsider(native), free action study target on hit w/sneak attack, 45 damage. Katiyana dead before acting.

We didn't even play out the combat with the 3 hound archons vs the hoar frost spirits as it would have been a joke at this point.

There's not a real point to this story, I just thought it was pretty fun to one round a CR 11 encounter when down 1 PC and wanted to share.

Rynjin wrote:

The entire AP is basically one big, long revenge plot Asmodeus cooked up to get back at Mitra. If your character has no interest in the outcome of that squabble, he has no reason to participate.

That is true, but I simply fixed it by giving my PCs a reason to hate the Mitrans outside of the revenge plot. That way the revenge plot becomes Thorn's (and Asmodeus's revenge by proxy) and the PC's revenge. Thorn's rules are fine for now, while they have no power to stop him. In time though, they plan to find loopholes in their contract and take him out, as well as the Mitrans. Which is just fine with me.

francesco serafini wrote:

As I suspected. I'm a newbie and I still have doubt on some rules.

I thought that "Con Based" could mean that the reflex save get bonus from constitution. It sound silly, on second thought.
Thank you!

I'm not a newbie and I still have doubt on some rules. It's a complicated game. Never be afraid to ask.

The Whirlwind Blast DC says it is Con based, so it would increase by 2, to a total of DC 19 for a Bralani with Augment Summoning.

Don't let anyone play a Souleater with Crafting Feats unless you're ok with your players becoming Monty Haul style over wealth due to the huge amount of downtime available in book 2.

Rynjin wrote:

Oh, and make sure everybody is fanatically devoted to Asmodeus. Like, 100% completely ready to follow orders no matter what the orders might be.

Because the plot of this AP makes ZERO SENSE if they aren't. Past Book 2, or maybe even earlier, you basically have no incentive whatsoever to keep following orders unless you're right on with the cause or are in some other way completely incapable of being able to go your own way.

Actually, I didn't find that to be a problem at all. None of the players were Asmodeans when I ran it, but the contracts they had to sign early in book 1 were enough to keep them in line until they were free of them. By that point, they wanted to rule the island anyway, so lack of Asmodean help just made it a little more challenging for them, but it wasn't immersion breaking.

If I were going to do anything, I'd give the guy grappled a small circumstance modifier to his CMD, per an invisible creature in a grapple. But as for a flat 50% miss to maintain, that's silly. You've already got a hold on the guy, you FEEL him. It doesn't matter that his image looks a couple inches in another direction.

Magus Pierce wrote:

Very interesting points are cropping up now... And I just might make a Blugeoning Disc brawler for kicks. And since they're part of the Close fighter weapon group, couldn't they be used in a brawler's fury action?

Nope, got it confused with Flurry of Blows. Flurry allows monk weapons to be used, Fury is just Unarmed Strikes.

That kills my ridiculous fighting style plan, lol.

Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

Smashing board away.

Driver 325 yards wrote:
Resilent Brute: Once per day, when a creature confirms a critical hit against you, you may treat half the damage as nonlethal damage. You cannot use this ability if you are immune to nonlethal damage. When your base attack bonus reaches +10, you may use this ability an additional time per day.

So essentially you are struck with a blow that does lethal and nonlethal damage. So if you are hit with 30 point of damage, 15 would be lethal and 15 would be nonlethal. You would apply DR/5- to the lethal. You would apply DR/10- to the nonlethal. You would be left with 10 points of lethal damage and 5 point of nonlethal damage taken.

Sorry Brotato, but in this particular instance I just don't see why there would be any table variation at all. Unless I am missing something that is not plain on the surface, the rules are pretty clear here.

I agree that there *shouldn't* be table variance, but simply accede that there *may* be. I have seen enough arguments trying to apply defensive abilities in the worst order of operations possible (DR before Incorporeality, Vulnerability before Resistance) that I'm simply acknowledging that out there there is almost assuredly someone that does not agree with you and me.

In the order of operations, logical flow to me is Saving Throw, Damage mitigation not-DR/Resistance (incorporeality, for example), Resistance/DR, Vulnerability.

So in this case I would rule that Resilient Brute triggers first, splitting the damage, which is then reduced as applicable by each DR. It's an ability that you get to use at most 2x a day, it's not game breaking, not even really as powerful as a Destined Bloodrager's anti-crit ability.

RAW, there is no absolutely spelled out order of application of variables that affect damage, so you're going to have to deal with a bit of table variance. I feel my order of operations makes the most sense, however.

Only way I've found to blend Monk and Swashbuckler into a decent Dex to damage build that doesn't use Agile is to go Temple Sword.

You're missing the point. A PRE-requisite is something that a creature is required to have PRIOR to being able to SELECT said Feat (which you actually quoted but didn't seem to notice). The very prefix PRE disallows you from taking Final Embrace without first having constrict. It's the same reason you couldn't take a feat with a prerequisite of Diplomacy +10 that gave you a +2 to Diplomacy if your Diplomacy was only +8.

ryric wrote:

I'm actually unimpressed with the inquisitor's discern lies ability - that spell allows a saving throw, and since it's a SLA the save DC will be Cha based and therefore likely not very good. Add to that the fact that your target know someone tried to do something to them when they make the DC13-15 Will save and its utility goes way down.

It has some uses but in general it's more limited than people seem to think.

I agree. Especially when you consider that most Inquisitors are going to have a Sense Motive check so insane that it replaces most spells anyway.

L'cutus wrote:

One thing I learned in PFS play was that Acid Splash essentially replaces rogues for quietly entering buildings. It takes a lot of time, but it eventually works. My party found a place to hide in an alleyway and bored in through a wall.

So I imagine fire works the same, except it causes light, heat and generally much more ado. I don't know about rules for catching fire, but eventually damage will work. I'd just expect the whole dungeon to be waiting on the other side.

How, exactly, is a maximum of 4 damage, halved, getting through even wood's 5 hardness, to say nothing of stone's 8?

Not only that, but Sanctified Slayer basically gets rid of their weakest ability (which is still pretty strong) for Focused Target and Sneak Attack, offsetting their Average BAB and making them even better front-liners.

Flawed wrote:

One of the Eldritch heritage feat line can get you a +6 inherent bonus to con...

Pit-Touched not a bloodline. It is what the Infernal bloodline becomes when a sorcerer takes the Wildblooded Archetype. It is not a separate bloodline, and so not available for EH.

Anzyr wrote:
Not really, Rise of the Runelords gives you decent chunks of downtime. And that really takes a day a most. And even if you do end up having to do something you have plenty of 1-4th level spells to fall back on.

As long as you can get back to Varisia in the same day, but I agree about Runelords having large chunks of downtime. I wasn't referring to that AP in particular for the repercussions part (though there are a few timetables in that game that my players have borked by trying to abuse 15 minute adventure days.)

blahpers wrote:
Brotato wrote:

Plane Shift to where, exactly? City of Brass on the Fire Plane I suppose would work, no sure of any other Metropoli elsewhere. Better be prepared though, Plane Shift isn't exact.

Teleport to where, exactly? Sure you can keep trying until you hit a place you've "seen once," but this invites potential mishaps, and wastes time, which as I mentioned can become a factor in Runelords.

I'll admit ignorance and say I'm not sure what Contact Other Plane is meant to accomplish in this scenario.

** spoiler omitted **

The answer to your third (implied) question is "to answer your first two questions".

Ah I see. Yes I suppose if you're willing to pester deities with where you can find the BSF's next sword, that would help. It's a bit dangerous (Ability checks stay relevant much longer than other checks). It's also a lot of your high level spells just to buy things. Which means you're likely not adventuring that day. Which can (not always, but can) have its own repercussions.

Plane Shift to where, exactly? City of Brass on the Fire Plane I suppose would work, no sure of any other Metropoli elsewhere. Better be prepared though, Plane Shift isn't exact.

Teleport to where, exactly? Sure you can keep trying until you hit a place you've "seen once," but this invites potential mishaps, and wastes time, which as I mentioned can become a factor in Runelords.

I'll admit ignorance and say I'm not sure what Contact Other Plane is meant to accomplish in this scenario.

On a tangent, Anniversary Edition Karzoug is dangerous enough that I think even two full casters in a party of four would have a hard time keeping him under control. That first round if he wins Init is just brutal.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Brotato wrote:
A +5 magic sword is also 50,000. If you're going by the rules, there *might* be one available (from the specific major item random roll) but if not, a player isn't going to be able to just buy one, even in a Metropolis (unless that metropolis has some traits that give it a decent boost to its base gp value). Many of these homebrew attempts I see have an incredible onus on them. I feel if many just really read the settlement rules and enforced them, they wouldn't need convoluted systems of magical item distribution.

The standard rules are fairly convoluted - at the level where you have 50,000gp to spend you probably also have the magic to travel the world, looking in all the world's great metropolises to see what's available.

You can't solve everyone's problems by going by the rules, because everyone has different goals. Some people want to make all magic items, not just the 20,000gp+ ones, feel special and rare and not mass produced. My goals are (a) to allow the player to get the things that are specific to their character concept, (b) to avoid overpowered PCs, and (c) for all shopping to take place between sessions so I don't have to waste table time on it.

Sure, they do. But how many settlements are metropolis level in Golarion? Maybe 12-20? That's 12-20 shots at your item, on a table that is quite frankly so vast that your chances of any specific item you want being available are so slim that it's like winning the lottery.

Take Rise of the Runelords for example. The biggest settlement you come across in that entire campaign is Magnimar. Magnimar's base GP limit is 12,800 gp. You literally cannot find even a +4 stat item in Magnimar if it's not rolled as a specific item for that month. And you can get to this point as early as 7th level. This is for an AP that spans 18 levels by the end. So for more than half of the PCs adventuring lives, they have to juggle trying to have things commissioned (Runelords has some decent time tables in place) or just roll with what they find in monster loot.

If you want magical items to feel special, there is already a mechanism for that. It's far less immersion breaking to me to just say that a medieval civilization with low magic would have medieval settlement sizes (ie, large cities being the absolute maximum size) and using that than creating specific and arbitrary restrictions.

Wheldrake wrote:

Yes, since it takes a crafter of 15+ level to craft a +5 sword (and so on) those really cool magic weapons can't be cranked out by just anybody. And your 15+ level wizards probably have a lot of better things to do than cater to the greedy desires of the latest crop of adventurers, not to mention better ways to rake in loads of swag.

Most of those magic items that require really high-level casters to make are probably centuries old, if not more.

This said, I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and it reinforces the idea that you can play D&D/Pathfinder in many different ways, with a magic-rich or magic-poor setting, however you prefer. There is no one right way.

I feel like I'm a broken record here but I really feel like all these ideas about the rules allowing for Magic Mart Syndrome are a consequence of people never reading or enforcing settlement limitations. A +5 magic sword is also 50,000. If you're going by the rules, there *might* be one available (from the specific major item random roll) but if not, a player isn't going to be able to just buy one, even in a Metropolis (unless that metropolis has some traits that give it a decent boost to its base gp value). Many of these homebrew attempts I see have an incredible onus on them. I feel if many just really read the settlement rules and enforced them, they wouldn't need convoluted systems of magical item distribution.

If allowed, it would place them on their spell list at the appropriate level, as to do otherwise would make the perk completely useless.

It allows them to take those spells as spells known (pending GM approval since it's a non-core source), but does not grant them for free.

He's a Spawn of Rovagug. He's the living amalgamation of a volcano. Anything non-artifact is in danger of becoming slag.

Simon Legrande wrote:

Here's something that I think goes contrary to that idea. We always see claims that higher level spell casters are supposed to be super rare. I mean like 1:1,000,000,000 rare. If that's the case, how is the world littered with shops that sell equipment that only a high level caster could craft? (I'm not looking for an answer, it's just a counterpoint to the magic items everywhere idea).

Except the world isn't, if you're using the settlement rules. Even a metropolis is only going to have a handful (around 1d4ish) of items worth more than around 36,000 gold a month. Also, CL is irrelevant for crafting 99% of the time. It's one of the most ignored requirements (which only raises the DC by 5).

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I just use the actual rules. Not even Metropoli have a 36000gp base limit. That means even something as minor as a +6 stat item either has to be specifically commissioned (meaning getting a crafter to devote 36 days to one item), rolled as part of the random major items of the month, or just found.

Magic Mart Syndrome is largely a product of not using the settlement rules correctly.

A 17th level Master Summoner with the Ring of Agathion summoning putting out 1d3+1 leonals is an average of 416 healing per leonal for one use of your ~16/day SLA. On top of pounce, 3(1d3+1) Walls of Force, unlimited fireballs(1d3+1)/hold monsters, and protective auras on all of them to shield your teammates. And if you have SGM, they all have Diehard. It's a long way off, but definitely something that can come in handy at the end of an AP.

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