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It should also be pointed out that, apart from symbolic evil value, evil forces with working brains have very little reason to destroy the Thorncrown. Yes, it gives a potent power boost to paladins who wear it, but it also disintegrates them any time they break their code. And it should be pointed out, regularly when paladins break their code, they have some chance at atonement, and may still end up going off and doing some significant good even if they lose their paladinhood.
It might be an interesting project for the Pathfinders to do an actuarial study to show how many paladins were disintegrated by the Thorncrown before they took custody of it and how many paladins were disintegrated afterward. Following that logic, the Pathfinder society has been saving the lives of many paladins rather than let them run afoul of a dangerously cursed artifact.
Probably the safest place for the thing is in a laboratory where the only person around it is a neutral guy with a monocle who has the common sense to not pick it up or put the cursed crown on.
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I always felt like the Pathfinder Society as presented in the fluff of Golarion products (distinct from the Society as an organic gaming organization) was like the bad archeologist at the beginning of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
Different expectations and all that, but I always saw the White Hat Guy as being the Aspis Consortium with Indiana "It belongs in a museum!" Jones being the Pathfinder Society.
Though admittedly some things do need to be put away by "top men"...
The Aspis Consortium would definitely finance a guy like Belloch... but it doesn't necessarily follow that the Pathfinders would sponsor Indiana Jones as exactly their kind of guy- they seem much more like the feds who send Indy after the Ark than like a man who wants to share the amazing discovery with the world.
As far as the wider issue of their behavior, the Pathfinders' rough patches are actually very appropriate- after all, they routinely "discover" place like, say, Xin-Shalast, even though the place has a population of sapient beings. A little boarding-school imperialism doesn't clash with that one iota.
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I always felt like the Pathfinder Society as presented in the fluff of Golarion products (distinct from the Society as an organic gaming organization) was like the bad archeologist at the beginning of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.Different expectations and all that, but I always saw the White Hat Guy as being the Aspis Consortium with Indiana "It belongs in a museum!" Jones being the Pathfinder Society.
Though admittedly some things do need to be put away by "top men"...
I think that's certainly what the writers have been trying to go for with the two organizations.
The problem that people have is that the details sometimes don't do a very good job of supporting that vision.
It should also be pointed out that, apart from symbolic evil value, evil forces with working brains have very little reason to destroy the Thorncrown. Yes, it gives a potent power boost to paladins who wear it, but it also disintegrates them any time they break their code. And it should be pointed out, regularly when paladins break their code, they have some chance at atonement, and may still end up going off and doing some significant good even if they lose their paladinhood.
It might be an interesting project for the Pathfinders to do an actuarial study to show how many paladins were disintegrated by the Thorncrown before they took custody of it and how many paladins were disintegrated afterward. Following that logic, the Pathfinder society has been saving the lives of many paladins rather than let them run afoul of a dangerously cursed artifact.
Probably the safest place for the thing is in a laboratory where the only person around it is a neutral guy with a monocle who has the common sense to not pick it up or put the cursed crown on.
Of course most paladins do not fall, and thus the crown belongs in their hands no matter how evil propaganda tries to twist it. Nobody with a brain doesn't see through that "we're saving paladins" propaganda either.
Of course most paladins do not fall, and thus the crown belongs in their hands no matter how evil propaganda tries to twist it. Nobody with a brain doesn't see through that "we're saving paladins" propaganda either.
Proof that "most paladins do not fall"? Without data, this is all just anecdotal.
The "saving paladins" line isn't so much propaganda as a fringe benefit being used for propaganda.
Beyond that, if the matter of who the Thorncrown of Iomedae should belong to, if you were to ask a priest of Abadar, god of both Law and Commerce and therefore doubly an authority on valuable property and who it rightfully belongs to, I think he would argue, reasonably, that the Thorncrown belongs to Iomedae. She dropped her helmet on the streets of Absalom long ago, all parties interested in the Thorncrown are in agreement that it's her crown, and since she did not die, it doesn't even go to her next of kin. I don't have a copy of the laws of Absalom handy, but I think it's reasonable to assume there's no law that says ascension to godhood means you lose your rights to your personal property.
So the next reasonable thing is to bring in someone who can contact Iomedae and ask what she wants done with her old helmet. While the paladins are clearly correct that the Pathfinder Society are in possession of stolen property, this does not mean that the paladins have a legal right to Iomedae's old helmet either. This would be like a bard's fan club claiming they have the right to a bard's lute he forgot in a dressing room after his latest tour.
Now we have to imagine what Iomedae would say, if anything. Yes, we can imagine her saying "Give it to my lovely little paladins!" but that really doesn't sound like her. Looking at her write up, one imagines she would say, "So long as it is being used to uphold Valor, Rulership, Justice, and Honor, I do not care."
The Abadaran judge can get behind the idea of the last three of these, so he'd call the Pathfinder society to testify, for the interest of the court, as to how exactly they came by the crown. Did they kill a bunch of paladins to get it? Did they somehow get it from someone who got it from someone who killed a bunch of paladins? What is the exact provenance here? Was it acquired by Just means, Honorable means, Valorous means, or perhaps in some manner that promotes Rulership, such as a gift from a noble?
I'm not certain what the Pathfinder Society would say, but I would imagine something along the lines of "We plead the 5th."
Of course, the paladins are not in the possession of the crown yet either. Their claim to ownership amounts "It's ours because we pried it up off the sidewalk." That certainly doesn't sound Valorous, it's indifferent if slightly negative with regards to Honor, it doesn't sound like Justice, and Rulership? Did the paladins have a ragpickers's permit to pick up junk from the streets of Absalom for their own use or resale or not?
The Abadaran judge would likely rule that the proper thing to do with the crown would be for the rulers of Absalom to promote Rulership and Justice by having some tournament or other grand contest of Valor and Honor with the Thorncrown of Iomedae as prize. The interested paladins would be allowed to enter, the Pathfinder Society would be allowed to enter, and even the ragpickers' of Absalom would be allowed to enter.
Or, and this is another possibility, if it could be shown that the Ragpickers' Guild had been granted refuse rights to the streets of Absalom continuously dating to before Iomedae passing the test of the Starstone, then Justice, Honor, and Rulership would all point to them being the rightful owners. Law is already on their side.
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I had a mildly positive impression of the Pathfinder Society until I read this week in Artifact and Legends that they slew members of the church of Iomedae, stole the Thorncrown of Iomedae, and kept it, with its powers for paladins, hidden for centuries. So now, not so positive. :-DTo put this in context I've been collecting pathfinder since near the beginning and one thing that has always struck me is how the Pathfinder society come across as pretty unlikable. Between Seeker of secrets, What happend in the Elando story and the current fiction the society comes across as a bunch of Elitest jerks.
Now my question is this supposed to be the case? Reading shatted star and the entombed with the phareoes module series the society in them comes across as much more reasonable and likable (As well as many of the society characters in the adventure path fiction). So is the society as presented in Seeker of secrets the norm (I believe it has been mentioned there were a fair few mistakes in that) or is it more a case of early work which is now no longer cannon?
To be fair who actually stole the crown is an unknown mystery. All that can be said for certain is that the Society got a hold of the artifact, (quite possibly as a third or fourth in the chain of acquisition) and refused to yield it to Iomedae's followers. And it's not that they withheld it for frivoulous reason, it was the only known artifact to at least partially survive the Test of the Starstone, so I would be extremely surprised if the Society passed up an opportunity to learn about the Test itself.
By it's lights the Society has as much right to the Thornecrown as do the Paladins of Iomedae.
Actually, since the Church of Iomedae has already proven that they are unable to safeguard the Crown, why the heck would any responsible person or organization entrust them, again, with that which they have proven unable to protect already?
Really, that is just asking for trouble....
I had a mildly positive impression of the Pathfinder Society until I read this week in Artifact and Legends that they slew members of the church of Iomedae, stole the Thorncrown of Iomedae, and kept it, with its powers for paladins, hidden for centuries. So now, not so positive. :-DTo put this in context I've been collecting pathfinder since near the beginning and one thing that has always struck me is how the Pathfinder society come across as pretty unlikable. Between Seeker of secrets, What happend in the Elando story and the current fiction the society comes across as a bunch of Elitest jerks.
Now my question is this supposed to be the case? Reading shatted star and the entombed with the phareoes module series the society in them comes across as much more reasonable and likable (As well as many of the society characters in the adventure path fiction). So is the society as presented in Seeker of secrets the norm (I believe it has been mentioned there were a fair few mistakes in that) or is it more a case of early work which is now no longer cannon?
To be fair who actually stole the crown is an unknown mystery. All that can be said for certain is that the Society got a hold of the artifact, (quite possibly as a third or fourth in the chain of acquisition) and refused to yield it to Iomedae's followers. And it's not that they withheld it for frivoulous reason, it was the only known artifact to at least partially survive the Test of the Starstone, so I would be extremely surprised if the Society passed up an opportunity to learn about the Test itself.
By it's lights the Society has as much right to the Thornecrown as do the Paladins of Iomedae.
Actually, since the Church of Iomedae has already proven that they are unable to safeguard the Crown, why the heck would any responsible person or organization entrust them, again, with that which they have proven unable to protect already?
Really, that is just...
So as long as an organization can hold onto something, they have the right to it.
But if they cant hold on to it, they dont have the right to it?So, posession is 10/10th of the law?
You sure PFS is not a thieves guild?
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We actually have a meeting planned for this to decide which way we should go with it. Once we have figured out what is the best route to take, we will certainly let you know.
I'm a loyal PFS player and, personally, I have no qualms about whether the Society is "likeable" or not. It is what it is. People who play Warhammer 40k don't ask "is the Imperium of Mankind nice," they just get on with the game.
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I have no problem with the Pathfinder Society being a petty and corrupt organization. I have a problem with the Pathfinder Society being a petty and corrupt organization and simultaneously being held up as a group every PC wants to join. Society membership is the carrot in many Paizo adventures.
Well put. Our group is running through Serpent's Skull right now, and despite a party skewed heavily toward White Hat Good Guys, we allied ourselves with the pirate faction in preference to the Pathfinders (or the Apsis Consortium or the Red Mantis or the racially oppressive Sargavan government.)
It makes me want to not participate in organized play or run the Shattered Star AP, for example.
I haven't read through the whole AP yet, so I don't know how much work will be needed, but I'll be GMing Shattered Star with no mention of the Pathfinders. When I ran our group through Rise of the Runelords, I established a new Institute of Thassalonian Culture in Magnimar, mainly as a source for occasional funding for the group and a place for them to dispose of Thassalonian [mostly non-magical] artifacts; in-game its purpose was to bring prestige to Magnimar in its bid to become recognized as the de facto capital of Varisia. ITC was newly founded at that time and run by the Mayor's staff, but during Shattered Star, Sheila Heidmarch will be its director.
I haven't read through the whole AP yet, so I don't know how much work will be needed, but I'll be GMing Shattered Star with no mention of the Pathfinders. When I ran our group through Rise of the Runelords, I established a new Institute of Thassilonian Culture in Magnimar, mainly as a source for occasional funding for the group and a place for them to dispose of Thassilonian [mostly non-magical] artifacts; in-game its purpose was to bring prestige to Magnimar in its bid to become recognized as the de facto capital of Varisia. ITC was newly founded at that time and run by the Mayor's staff, but during Shattered Star, Sheila Heidmarch will be its director.
That would actually run fairly well, although you might still consider using something like the Prestige rules from PFS, since
Also, if you go the route you are talking, you can use the Pathfinder Society as rivals without them necessarily being opponents, which may or may not help you with tie-ing the AP together. Some people have complained that it seems a bit disjointed at times.
That would actually run fairly well, although you might still consider using something like the Prestige rules from PFS, since
** spoiler omitted **
The AP gives the option of simply assuming the PCs have 60 (or 64) Fame points at the start of Book Six, so that'll be easy.
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I always assume that the grand lodge is like a less organised version of the Pitt-Rivers Museum.
Pitt-Rivers (note, the lights are usually much dimmer to preserve the delicate bits of art.
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One of the things that I have dislike about the society is the disrespect shown by Venture captains to senior pathfinders. Some times I have wanted to Smite certain Vewnture Captains for how they have treated me and my fellow pathfiners. Exceptions to this are Venture Captains Sheila Hiedmarch and Drandle Drang. VC Drang has always been respectful and helpful if you asked him questions and VC Heidmarch has always been glad to see me and my fellow Pathfinder even when we almost burnt down a portion of her lodge, a regretable use of a fireball aginist a baddide that poped out a crate and tried to kill us.
Venture Captains need to show respect to Patfinders that are almost ready to get there own lodges after all. New pathfinders have to learn to take thier lumps and like it it is just part of the learning expericence. I don't know about hazing none of the junior pathfinders I know have been hazed. The closeest thing to hazing has having a bag put of my head and driven around in a carraige to see a big muckety muck in Kara Maga but that was not done by a fellow pathfinder. So I don't know what all this whining has been about.
Yours truley
Ingmar Larson
Sliver Crusade
Paladin of the Inheritor
I opened Seekers of Secrets excited to learn more about what my PC was involved with, and what I read in that first chapter made me swear off organized play entirely because what I read was so repugnant to me.
I recently came upon this thread, and after I read that part, I had to take a short break, go to the store and buy some popcorn before I continued. This looked like it would turn out to be too much like a circus not to have some popcorn with it :D
Further in there were some very good lore parts in it. I enjoyed the thread, and will be looking up more lore and sidestories :)
http://i42.tinypic.com/2ibyix0.jpg
This thread was such a great read....I especialy love the 'justification' of the PFS keeping somebody else property....pure comedy gold.
In my game the PFs has good members...and evil members who make the Apis Consortium look like chior boys. This creates a kinda of intrigue I love.
Also....why did the Curch of Iomedae send Paladins to recover their holy relic? That makes as much sense as the 'justifications'....why not send Inquisitors? I mean the class is built exactly for that purpose.,,,mmm adventure idea forming.
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I don't want to dive too far into the deep end here, but isn't the stated purpose of the Pathfinders to go out and plunder other cultures? Comparisons to the Victoria era explorers are pretty apt. The problem being, most of that behavior was pretty evil. They profited off the ancestral relics of the people they were exploiting. Could they not have found as much gold in the tombs of their own ancestors?
Star Trek offers us a view of a more likeable PFS, because they don't loot and have a non-interference policy. They are a lot closer to neutral than Pathfinders are, and they are pretty benevolent. Unless I am missing something.
I pretty much agree with you, mcbobbo. I hate all this "We know best, so all the artifacts and relics for us!".
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I’ve never really cared for the Pathfinders as an organization either. Perhaps, I’ve missed something, but to me they come off as the world’s most successful thieves’ guild.
They kind of come off as the old british explorers club, but they don’t really have any national loyalty to anyone. They aren’t doing it for country and queen.
They sort of have an Indiana Jones vibe, but nothing is going on display in a museum. There is no university collecting this knowledge for the betterment of the world.
They kind of come off as an organization that is for the betterment of the world, but they’re not. They’re all about stealing other people’s stuff and hiding it in secret vaults.
They answer to no one, and the identity of their leadership is secret.
I kind of expected a reveal that the whole organization is really run by a supremely ancient dragon who is just sitting on an unimaginable hoard of ancient relics. He is the Kaiser Soze of dragons. No one knows he exists, but he has the world working feverishly adding to his hoard.
I’ll admit that I wasn’t a fan of the Pathfinders when I first read about them, so I haven’t kept up with information on them. I just get snippets from threads like this. However, when I do come across things like Iomodae’s artifact, it just wants me to keep snipping them out of any adventures.
Justify stealing as much as they like, I’d expect ramifications on a more political level. They apparently hold relics and artifacts from every known country, city-state, and religion in Golarion. I believe some countries have banned them (Osirion, but I could be wrong), for looting, but I would expect that to become more widespread.
Although based on a totally different concept, I feel about them the same way I feel about FR's Harpers - I like a few of them individually, but as a group, I do see them as "busy-bodies" that stick their nose in everyone else's business.
So just because they accomplish a lot of good, both organizations should not be well-liked by 'the powers that be', because they upset the status-quo. No leader feels comfortable thinking that some outside agency knows more about their country (and the surrounding nations) then they do. 'Official types' may not like them much, but the 'unwashed masses' should look upon them as folk heroes (which is precisely how it works with FR's Harpers... and we can lump the Eagle Knights into this as well).
On the other hand, I find them an extremely effective springboard to launch campaigns.
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I’ve never really cared for the Pathfinders as an organization either. Perhaps, I’ve missed something, but to me they come off as the world’s most successful thieves’ guild.
They kind of come off as the old british explorers club, but they don’t really have any national loyalty to anyone. They aren’t doing it for country and queen.
They sort of have an Indiana Jones vibe, but nothing is going on display in a museum. There is no university collecting this knowledge for the betterment of the world.
They kind of come off as an organization that is for the betterment of the world, but they’re not. They’re all about stealing other people’s stuff and hiding it in secret vaults.
They answer to no one, and the identity of their leadership is secret.
I kind of expected a reveal that the whole organization is really run by a supremely ancient dragon who is just sitting on an unimaginable hoard of ancient relics. He is the Kaiser Soze of dragons. No one knows he exists, but he has the world working feverishly adding to his hoard.
I’ll admit that I wasn’t a fan of the Pathfinders when I first read about them, so I haven’t kept up with information on them. I just get snippets from threads like this. However, when I do come across things like Iomodae’s artifact, it just wants me to keep snipping them out of any adventures.
Justify stealing as much as they like, I’d expect ramifications on a more political level. They apparently hold relics and artifacts from every known country, city-state, and religion in Golarion. I believe some countries have banned them (Osirion, but I could be wrong), for looting, but I would expect that to become more widespread.
I mirror this sentiment exactly. Why on Earth would any nation want the Pathfinders to set up lodges in their territory? So that they could have the privilege of hosting a bunch of Lara Croft-style characters plunder their country's historical artifacts to be put in some unknown storage site that only ten anonymous leaders have access to? From what I have heard the Pathfinder society is supposed to be a very prestigious organization. But would someone tell me where this prestige comes from?
The only good thing that I have heard the Pathfinder Society does is increase the existing body of knowledge regarding old empires and unexplored countries through the periodical release of the Pathfinder Chronicles. That's fine of course, but I do not think that it merits the seemingly high regard that is given to the Society.
I mean, think of the Thorncrown example that was discussed a while back; the Pathfinders came into possession of arguably the most valued and sacred holy relic of the Church of Iomedae...a relic that they knew was stolen property, and they made no effort to return it and made every effort to keep it hidden from the Church. I would think that after that, Pathfinder society members are henceforth persona non grata in countries like Mendev and Lastwall, as well as places that relies on members of the Church of Iomedae for protection, such as Ustalav. Good luck getting lodges established there, or any other country where the Church has strong influence.
Yeah, I don't mind them not being "good" but they're just not super interesting... Especially for the organization that shares its name with the entire game line.
It could be an adventurer's wet dream, like the Royal Geographic Society or those other old school things, but the execution was just blah. It seems like it's too much "not really for you PCs" even though you're their minions in Organized Play... They just come off really flat.
I think the thing that keeps the pathfinders legal and liked in most countries is that they regularly publish their findings. Even though they cause problems, most nations know that the pathfinders are their best chance of recovering the thousands of years worth of lost knowledge that exists on Golarion.
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You need the Pathfinder Society, because otherwise there wouldn't be adventurers.
Consider: a group of dangerous looking strangers come to a city. Are they citizens, members of an acknowledged merchant's guild or vassels of the local Lord? No? Then no entry for them. A group of heavily armed foreigners enter your average baton or local rulers land; obviously they are escaped peasants, so their obviously stolen gear will be confiscated, and they will be out on a farm somewhere to work.
Without a powerful patron, local authorities will treat travellers as criminals, except for those few cities and towns that are set up to merchants and pilgrimages. And that goes double for a small group of mercenaries. A nation or church is going to be limited in where they can send their people (imagine Cortez being sent into France instead of the New World), so you really need a large-scale independent organization.
So really, if you want to support the murderhobo lifestyle, you need something like the Pathfinder Society. Otherwise advertisers won't get further than the first neighbouring kingdom or independent city.
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The Pathfinder Society only publishes a few handfuls of copies of the chronicles, and they are intended exclusively for it's own members. However, there is a market for these novels amongst some nobles, and the black market gets their hands on them and semi-mass produces them as a high price.
Also, most cities and governments, and in fact most people do not respect Pathfinders as anything beyond thugs, trouble-makers, and scoundrels at best, and at worst grave robbers and cultural/national raiders. And that is exactly the sort of thing that the Society, as a whole actually is.
Then the Pathfinder Society should be a perfect match for bands of murderhobos and grave robbers. Even the Lawful Good PCs have a murder count high enough that no nation free city would allow them their freedom.
I suppose the main advantage of the Pathfinder Society is it gives enough direction and control to the murderhobos that their threat to general society is diminished. Kind of how like in Order of the Stick Roy limits Belkar's murderous habits.
You need the Pathfinder Society, because otherwise there wouldn't be adventurers.
Consider: a group of dangerous looking strangers come to a city. Are they citizens, members of an acknowledged merchant's guild or vassels of the local Lord? No? Then no entry for them. A group of heavily armed foreigners enter your average baton or local rulers land; obviously they are escaped peasants, so their obviously stolen gear will be confiscated, and they will be out on a farm somewhere to work.
Without a powerful patron, local authorities will treat travellers as criminals, except for those few cities and towns that are set up to merchants and pilgrimages. And that goes double for a small group of mercenaries. A nation or church is going to be limited in where they can send their people (imagine Cortez being sent into France instead of the New World), so you really need a large-scale independent organization.
So really, if you want to support the murderhobo lifestyle, you need something like the Pathfinder Society. Otherwise advertisers won't get further than the first neighbouring kingdom or independent city.
I really hope you're kidding. What does any of this have to do with Golarion?
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You need the Pathfinder Society, because otherwise there wouldn't be adventurers.
Consider: a group of dangerous looking strangers come to a city. Are they citizens, members of an acknowledged merchant's guild or vassels of the local Lord? No? Then no entry for them. A group of heavily armed foreigners enter your average baton or local rulers land; obviously they are escaped peasants, so their obviously stolen gear will be confiscated, and they will be out on a farm somewhere to work.
Without a powerful patron, local authorities will treat travellers as criminals, except for those few cities and towns that are set up to merchants and pilgrimages. And that goes double for a small group of mercenaries. A nation or church is going to be limited in where they can send their people (imagine Cortez being sent into France instead of the New World), so you really need a large-scale independent organization.
So really, if you want to support the murderhobo lifestyle, you need something like the Pathfinder Society. Otherwise advertisers won't get further than the first neighbouring kingdom or independent city.
I do not think anyone here is arguing that the Pathfinder Society shouldn't exist. It works as a vehicle by which adventurers can travel the world and see all that there is to be seen. Rather, many of us are stating that as it is written, the Pathfinder Society is quite repellant. They simply pilfer priceless historical artifacts to be kept in storage for unknown purposes. At least when Imperial nations like France and Great Britain did such things, they openly displayed the artifacts in places like the Louvre or the British Museum, contributing to the wealth of human knowledge and historical understanding, as well as having the artifacts open to viewing by the public.
I really wish the Pathfinder did such things, because then it could be argued that they are preserving these artifacts to increase people's knowledge and understanding of the world. Perhaps future incarnations of the Pathfinder Society will have this done. But from what I have read that its members have done, few people would have reason to join it and fewer nations would have reason to allow the group to officially establish itself within their borders.
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many of us are stating that as it is written, the Pathfinder Society is quite repellant. They simply pilfer priceless historical artifacts to be kept in storage for unknown purposes. At least when Imperial nations like France and Great Britain did such things, they openly displayed the artifacts in places like the Louvre or the British Museum, contributing to the wealth of human knowledge and historical understanding, as well as having the artifacts open to viewing by the public.I really wish the Pathfinder did such things, because then it could be argued that they are preserving these artifacts to increase people's knowledge and understanding of the world. Perhaps future incarnations of the Pathfinder Society will have this done. But from what I have read that its members have done, few people would have reason to join it and fewer nations would have reason to allow the group to officially establish itself within their borders.
But the Pathfinders do publish Chronicles to spread the knowledge of many of the things they find. In the case of many of their found magic items, it wouldn't be safe to let the public anywhere near them. And the Pathfinder Society even works with the Blackros Museum in Absalom regularly, as shown by 4 different PFS scenarios that take place there.
As was pointed out earlier, the Chronicles are printed for other Pathfinders to read, but is that any more of a limitation than colonial Britain only putting their acquired items on display on their own soil, where foreigners rarely got to see them? In both cases, those who are friendly with the organization/country can still gain access to that knowledge. In fact, it would probably be easier for a friend to the Pathfinder Society to borrow Chronicles to read than for someone 100+ years ago to travel to the capital of a foreign nation, where they display their greatest artifacts in a museum.
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Yes, because the pathfinder Society doesn't share it's findings. At all. Even the Chronicles, which are pretty rare, are written by the higher level members, and do not contain much of the actual information as much as heroics.
As for the Blakros Museum, it was originally not friendly to the Pathfinders, and only later became neutral after suffering a few curses and odd occurrences, (some of which may have actually been caused directly by the Pathfinder Society), and the Society's only interest is to gain access, (aka steal) some of the museum's more rare objects not on display to the general public, and to get first choice when they do sell. Most of the missions involved include lines like "your mission is to get ______, and we are using the recent issue as cover to get you inside. If you can save some people, ok I'll personally pat you on the head like a good doggie, but read between the lines. Your mission is to get _______ for me."
Now I am imagining them as a sort of version like shadowrunners, cirminals who go into someone's nation on behalf of another nation to steal and or murder stuff from them.
Why does it seem like the more I read this thread the less I like the Pathfinder Society?
It gets even more confusing when under organized play, your not supposed to be "evil".
I get headaches trying to figure these things out. Maybe i need some more high-order math...
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Avoiding modern viewpoint bias, an extra-national organization dedicated to finding things out and writing things down can get it and its members seen as a bunch of nosy busybodies, though a part of being in the Society, regardless of personal morals, is having to deal with the Society's various reputations wherever they go.
Really, one of the reasons the Society doesn't make all of its knowledge public and all of its findings on display is that some of them are powerfully, dangerously magical. If they did, then this thread would be full of posts like,
"Remember that time when the Pathfinders opened a public exhibit on the Runelords? It says on page 7 of the scenario, 'The Aspis Consortium steals everything in 1d4+1 days'! Besides,how high are Golarion's literacy rates, anyway?"
Also, if the Society published "The Basics of Lichdom", they'd get blamed for any resulting problems. They're officially neutral because their aim is on gathering knowledge, without any real goals about what to do with it. It allows for PFS characters to take on the mantle of Enthusiastic Researcher, Intrepid Reporter or just an itinerant editor of the Pathfinder's Guide to Golarion.
(Or, if you want to be a Shadowrunner, the "Hermean Escapee" back story practically writes itself!)
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Yeah, but when the information is "There's an underground empire of snake people trying to resurrect their god and take over the world RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW! WE GOTTA STOP THEM!! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!" I think the Society, if only out of self-interest, would say something to someone in authority. Some warning as to what's going on so if the worst does come to pass the world's at least not caught with their collective pants down.
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Yeah, but when the information is "There's an underground empire of snake people trying to resurrect their god and take over the world RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW! WE GOTTA STOP THEM!! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!" I think the Society, if only out of self-interest, would say something to someone in authority. Some warning as to what's going on so if the worst does come to pass the world's at least not caught with their collective pants down.
Let's have some perspective here. At any given time in Golarion, there's:
- Whispering Way plotting to let Tar-Baphon free,
- Worldwound spilling another demon army out,
- Old One cults chanting their prayers for Azatoth to come and blow everything up,
- pretty much the entire Abyss, Hell and Abaddon working hard to corrupt/enslave/obliterate mortal life,
- dude, Darklands.
and that's just the more-or-less common knowledge stuff. So, from the perspective of the Society, news about evil group no. 4356 trying to activate plot no. 252 using McGuffin no. 256 is pretty much another entry in the logbook. Since they're no Harpers (and I see a lot of people expecting PFS to be some umbrella reverse Al-Qadea and then running such expectations into a brick wall), the have little to no reason to go after every nefarious plot their agents uncover.
I can totally understand why a selfless altruist such as Eando got worked up about the fact that his particular discovery didn't jumpstart the organisation into Lawful Good mode, but he was trying to convince National Geographic to do something about the civil war in Syria. And that didn't work for pretty much the same reason it wouldn't work in real life.
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While some might be bummed about how bad the Pathfinder Society comes across in this thread, do note that Seekers of Secrets at the very least has been officially called out as being off the mark as far as portraying the norm of that organization(and a number of other things).
Not to say that they don't still have problems, but that does shave off quite a bit.
Have to admit, I am having to put some extra work into Shattered Star to sell the Society as being trustworthy and non-destructive about history. Contrasting them against the Aspis Consortium goes a long ways towards preventing the PFS from coming across like the Aspis Consortium.
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Yeah, but when the information is "There's an underground empire of snake people trying to resurrect their god and take over the world RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW! WE GOTTA STOP THEM!! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!" I think the Society, if only out of self-interest, would say something to someone in authority. Some warning as to what's going on so if the worst does come to pass the world's at least not caught with their collective pants down.Let's have some perspective here. At any given time in Golarion, there's:
- Whispering Way plotting to let Tar-Baphon free,
- Worldwound spilling another demon army out,
- Old One cults chanting their prayers for Azatoth to come and blow everything up,
- pretty much the entire Abyss, Hell and Abaddon working hard to corrupt/enslave/obliterate mortal life,
- dude, Darklands.and that's just the more-or-less common knowledge stuff. So, from the perspective of the Society, news about evil group no. 4356 trying to activate plot no. 252 using McGuffin no. 256 is pretty much another entry in the logbook. Since they're no Harpers (and I see a lot of people expecting PFS to be some umbrella reverse Al-Qadea and then running such expectations into a brick wall), the have little to no reason to go after every nefarious plot their agents uncover.
I can totally understand why a selfless altruist such as Eando got worked up about the fact that his particular discovery didn't jumpstart the organisation into Lawful Good mode, but he was trying to convince National Geographic to do something about the civil war in Syria. And that didn't work for pretty much the same reason it wouldn't work in real life.
The National Geographic comparison doesn't really work, in my mind. National Geographic's available to anyone who wants to shell out a few bucks for a subscription.
National Geographic would only be more like the Pathfinder Society if the issues were semi-historical volumes only available to the people in the company, with the occasional CEO able to smuggle an issue out. And everyone who worked at National Geographic was a skilled commando.
And Hell's effects are "okay" insofar as they're legally allowed by Cheliax to practice and perform in public.
The thing is the PFS is a group of wealthy murderers who claim to be doing it for the greater good, not their secret factions, and have the power to get away with most of what they do.
They talk about high ideals because that's what eveeryone does. At the end of it, they're created to help murderhobos hobo around murdering and looting.
I always felt like the Pathfinder Society as presented in the fluff of Golarion products (distinct from the Society as an organic gaming organization) was like the bad archeologist at the beginning of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
My standard PFS characters are greedy and amoral. Though that's also to explain the strange lives they lead. One day up north in winter gear, the next day trudging through sand. Only getting loot seems to stay, everything else fades, as though hundreds of people have done it before and after...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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A 'Good' or at least Non-Evil Society works best as Warehouse 13.
"If a radio landed in the hands of Thomas Jefferson, do you know what Jefferson would do? He would just lock it up, until he figured out it wasn't going to kill him. And that's exactly what we do here: take the unexplained, and safely tuck it away."
—Artie, from the pilot episode
Mix that with human hubris, and no equivelent to Mrs. Fredrick, and you have the Pathfinder Society.
I think I just realized why PFS dropped back down to eight factions...
So we wouldn't figure out that the Faction Leaders were really the Decemvirate.
That makes so much sense Irnk. I think I'll borrow it for my game...makes more sense than my tentative "elves taking over in secret" idea.
Thanks for the idea!
