Okay, I'm done with this. I don't know what I did but feel attacked hard in these past two posts, even as nice as most of @Ruzza's response is. My apologies for upsetting people or wasting your time. It doesn't help that people are liking the posts that attacked me.
ETA: Okay, that's as much of an over the top response as the responses I got. I don't understand how people are offended over the way I run my games.
I came here to discuss RAW, how it works, how it was intended, and for the most part I got that.
I offered my opinion on game theory that a breath weapon that only does 1/3 hit point damage and can only be used every 3 rounds on average is not scary, having seen that in action. Only when the breath weapon did 80% hit point damage to a character or drop one, did the players feel any threat at all. In explaining that, I got decent responses which explained to me PL and how it isn't CR, how boss monsters aren't a thing, and how to adjust a dragon if I felt the need. Those were helpful; attacking me is not.
Basic saves are another big issue for my group. I suggested only allowing them for PCs and NPCs or is that too much as well? In my limited experience, having the wizard do no damage over two rounds of mid tier spells (4th and 5th) is a huge morale hit. To the point the player didn't see the point of spell casters in PF2 because it would have been better to be a fighter than not do any damage at all. These are questions I have, which is why I posted here in the first place. What have others seens with basic saves?
If these are not appropriate or I need to post them in another forum, please inform me of that and where to go. I'm not trying to create house rules. I'm trying to understand RAW.
I think people have forgotten how much of a learning curve PF2 is. Keywords are things that GMs and players have to memorize. I keep forgetting that Interact triggers Reactive Strike. So does Manipulate. Until they don't. (Guns and Gears PF2 v Remaster Reloading Strike calls out that it did allow for a Reactive Strike in PF2 but not remaster.) Not to mention all of the other subtle changes that will be happening due to remaster.
We played Thursday and I started by listing out other options, as @Ruzza had, such as Hide, Sneak, Feint, Recall Knowledge, and other skill uses. One of the things that can be bad about having a lot of actions defined is looking for them instead of saying what their character will do. We talked about that as well. Bob World Builder had a good video on this, which is almost anathema to PF? He says to Be Direct. Don't ask how strong the rope is but instead say you want to tie it to the leg of the ogre and bring them down like an AT-AT in Empire. He does suggest the GM have an open mind as well, unless the players ideas are out of tone for what the group is doing. The bad part of this is the player having a good idea but by the rules, it's too many actions for one round. Not sure what to do in that case.
This can be tough in Pathfinder when so much is defined. I find that's good; rules over rulings, but it can feel restrictive. I also find that I'm missing a lot of context and background on things, which is why I'm posting my questions here. The inability of casters to ready a spell. in 1E, IIRC, they allow a spell to be prepared but the cost of it is that it's gone, if it's used or not. While I read it correctly, that spells couldn't be readied in PF2, I didn't understand why. It's why I came here but it's too bad a side bar in the GM book doesn't talk about these things.
With regards to my Thursday group, I needed to remember to let the Rogue rogue. If the rogue had been able to steal the giants' healing potions, that would have been cool and helped a lot. I need to remember and do more of these things.
Mathmuse wrote:
The dragon would last long enough to use its Breath Weapon three times, so I do wonder why Jon Goranson thinks that the Breath Weapon dealing 1/3 of their hit points is too weak.
Many good points, thanks @mathmuse! To directly answer this question, the dragon was able to use their breath weapon twice in the fight I ran.
I did think the as written breath weapon was underpowered. The cleric and the paladin, along with potions, allowed the party to heal enough that only taking a third of their hit points in damage wasn't meaningful. I think breath weapons should be at 2/3rds hit points damage on a save, and enough to take the weakest character down on a fail. Breath Weapon is powerful, no doubt about it, but Selective Energy overcomes the breath weapon as it is. Not attacking with the third action but using a potion then becomes the norm. I think this because the dragon doesn't have a good way to follow up on its breath weapon in the same round it uses it. That's why I want damaging auras or abilities on the player's turns.
I think there are monsters that are boss monsters. That doesn't exist in PF2, I know, but I do think some monsters should be boss/solo creatures. Dragons, high level planar creatures, liches, and other similar creatures should have options on the player's turns. I want Freezing Blood to be once per turn, not round as an action. I want other dragon's to have a similar ability. I would be fine if some of them don't start until the creature is bloodied. I want a lich power that instead of counterspell, they can take control of any targeted spells with an Arcana check. Something that shows their high INT. (Are there liches for divine and the other magic types? I would like that as well!) I'm surprised that dragons don't have a damaging aura. Something like Armor of Flames but no save and only damage, not persistent damage. I see these abilities as easily overcome with Resist Energy if they don't have items that give resistance.
It makes me wonder if there should be an item that gives damage resistance against two of the three melee types of damage at a certain level? Or just Mountain Resilience. We are saying that if the players know they are going against a dragon, they should get the appropriate breath weapon Resist Energy, so why not this against creatures like giants that hit hard?
I'm musing on things as I learn more and more about PF2. I appreciate the answers here because it's helping me learn it!
Thanks for the respones! Darn responsibilities interfering in my ability to respond! Adulting is annoying.
@ruzza, great points!
I think this is where hit points are a blessing and a bane. A lot of skill based systems have a "death spiral" built into their system with penalties based on injury. I then have a more concrete spot to decide when their opponent might flee or bargain for their life. In contrast, with how "swingy" the to hit and damage could be and with no penalties down to one hit point, it's not obvious when a PF2 creature should do that. It's not just hit points.
As several said, looking at tactical options and some of them don't make sense. With Off Guard via Flanking, and Flanking only coming from being opposite each other (I think there are exceptions to this by creature or feat), I think it's insane that a player would move their character to the other side of a creature. Yet the system seems to "demand" it to get that bonus. The rogue has done this a lot, because it "makes sense" for their abilities, but it also left them open to being flanked themselves.
On top of those issues, action economy and using actions "well" is definitely a thing with my players. They don't like Ready an Action costs two actions. (side question, can a caster never Ready an Action to cast a spell due to that? That's how I have been playing it but it really penalizes the casters.) I do agree that Delay needs to delay their entire turn, so glad it can only be done at the start of their turn, but my players don't like that. They want to delay during their turn because if they would get the rest of their actions later, it's better than Ready. I think non damaging actions having the Attack trait limits options as well. This could be my players not having success with Trip and not using it that much, if at all. They understand they have cost their opponent an action to stand up but their low success rate means they would rather attack to do damage, especially since it's about the same bonus.
Aid is also seen as a bad option or at least they don't use it often. I don't like how it's defined at all. Maybe it shouldn't be used in combat? If the DC scales, and they are already finding it tough to hit the opponent, they don't want to risk the penalty, even if it requires a critical failure. If it doesn't scale, I suppose it's a question of what the player thinks is the best use of their character's reaction. I guess in my mind, Aid has to scale with the difficulty of the task, or it should be a flat modifier they can give rather than rolled. I'm spending too much time thinking about Aid as I write this. There is something about it I don't like but can't quite figure out what.
@Ruzza, I also agree with you on the use of Delay and Ready actions. I think if PF2 had a more fluid initiative system, where they could decide when to slot into combat, they might use these more often. As it is, they don't use them much, so I assume don't find them worth it.
Fly takes us back in a circle to the fun encounter v the tactical encounter. If all a flyer does is harass the party from the air, with little to no chance of stopping them flying, that should be done every time. It's not a fun story or battle.
@Mathmuse, thanks for your insights! I agree that monsters have a great opening attack that fits them well. It's the follow up after that, which is weak. The crocodile you mention is a great example of this. Again, tactics v a good story. In reality, the croc should probably use its Aquatic Ambush as often as it can. If it misses the attack or they fail to drag the target to the water, move back into the water and wait to do that again. That turns the crocodile into a hazard more than an encounter, though. I would go so far as to say that the crocodile stat block needs to spell out that they use Aquatic Ambush as a grapple attempt and then drag their prey into the water for the Death Roll. On any failure, they should look to hide again. Heck, I would even go so far as to say they get Assurance on Stealth. (Is there a better version of Assurance where they do get to roll but can fall back on a 10 if the roll is less than 10?)
I think the White Dragon's Freezing Blood shouldn't be a reaction but on every hit after the dragon, or any opponent with something like this, is bloodied. It should require a slashing or piercing weapon.
I think another thing that I, and my players, don't do is research before they go out into the wilderness. Recall Knowledge, or research, would have told them some of the things they might have to defend against. As it was winter, and they were already fighting creatures with cold attacks, the fact that they had minimal cold resistance is on them.
Part of my problem is my own need to have things make sense. In the giant fight that I talked about, they were on their way to attack a small town and the characters made the brave decision to go out and fight them instead of staying safe behind the guards, which was a choice given to them. Because the giants were attacking, I gave them healing potions, which they used. It made sense they would have those. I understand now how that made the fight harder and might have also kept the giants fighting longer than they would have since they had healing options. At the same time, it's not easy in Foundry to instead have a shaman/cleric with the giants because cloud giants don't have options like that. In person, I could fake it by saying one giant looked like a caster. As I have said, this battle was a lack of imagination on my part, not allowing the rogue to be a rogue, not understanding the PL-4 the dragon was a hindrance, and adding healing potions. It's all a process! I'm talking about it because I want to get better.
@YuriP, there was a good video on "Medieval Stagnation" that made the argument that whatever the starting point for the game was, that it should be that way forever. (They were specifically talking about Skyrim and technology but it had good ideas for any game world.) If I start introducing technology into my game world AND advance the timeline, at what point does technology start catching up to magic? That becomes a headache for me as a GM to try and come up with a technology timeline, so it's best to make it somewhat static. I mean, I might put various cultures at higher or lower tech levels, or they have the ability to find it because it was lost but I never fully advance my world out of an early Renaissance period.
As for disease, while I agree that healing some of the items you mention took us time, I think it would hit hard in a fantasy world as well. Mainly because it spreads faster than the healers would be able to cure it. In this particular case, finding medicines or vaccines would be more effective than relying on magic.
Thanks for the discussion! As I said, still learning and this helps a lot!
The math is tight, but both monsters and PCs can adjust that through their various actions. If it feels like everything comes down to a die roll, I would encourage you to look at more tactical options and how to design with those in mind.
Can you expand on what you think of as the tactical options? Are you talking about dragon as solo? Are you talking about within dragon as solo? (And yes there is no concept of solo monsters in PF2.)
I do need to relook at this, so I appreciate the suggestions. This discussion has reminded me of many things to consider outside of PL or xp budget. The PCs, indeed the campaign, is about going after the lich controlling the area. (Longer story, these players had a campaign where they failed in stopping the lich from taking over the area. This campaign is the players making good on stopping the lich.) The campaign is about fighting undead. The giants they are fighting, in my mind, had no undead. Maybe they should! It would play to the PCs strengths. The fact that they did as well as they did against the white dragon, and now a tough fight against giants, is already tribute to how well the players are using tactics and defeating things they aren't optimized to fight against. I need to decide if I should add undead and how. I also like that they can win without being optimized against a particular opponent.
Those options go back to my simulationist side fighting with my narrativist side. The giants didn't have undead for reasons, mainly that they wouldn't want the lich to use them against the giants. They still have two more places to go before they confront the lich and I can fill those areas with undead.
Ruzza wrote:
That's definitely your perogative, but I would say that grappling or tripping larger creatures was possible in older editions, just difficult. Now in PF2, you do require a skill feat to be able to do so.
Yes, PF1 had all of these conditions but I never used them much. At low levels, it was too difficult to inflict them on a creature. At high levels, the extra bonus it gave wasn't needed due to the disparity between AC and the to-hit bonus. I did start to use them more in the last campaign, when one group was using PF1 and one PF2 and I saw how effective they could be. It was a good alternative to inflict a status/condition on them instead of causing damage. I am disappointed I didn't realize that a decade earlier.
All of that to say that Trip wasn't attempted much and never came up as something I had to think about in PF1. Maybe it did a few times but it was usually against something like a dragon, and the players stopped themselves from trying after thinking out loud about it.
Let me phrase this another way. Are there game mechanics to bring down a flyer other than Trip? Called Shot? Damage to wings? I'm willing to allow my players to use a ranged weapon to inflict a status that stops a flyer from flying until they fix it. I'm wondering if it already exists.
YuriP wrote:
Yes, these contradictions and realism issues are common in PF2e, because the designers chose to prioritize balance and gameplay instead. But often, as a GM, you can get away with a lot of this.
For example, in the matter of crafting in 2 days, paying the rest of the amount. I consider that when a character does this, due to the rush, he didn't make the entire equipment from scratch, instead, he searched and found several ready-made parts and basically assembled the item.
And like this:
Option 1: Forge the entire sword and its blade from scratch, spending days/months crafting until it's ready.
Option 2: Buy the ready-made blade, the ready-made hilt, and just forge to join the parts together so that they are safe and resistant, doing this in 2 days, but with a higher cost because instead of crafting most of it, most of it was purchased pre-made parts.
Those are good options! I do like it.
A quick digression. I watched a YouTube video of a modern armorer using medieval tools, methods, and even iron to make plate armor. It took a year and I do think it was his only task but I could be mistaken. However. A lot of the time was getting the raw iron to a high iron content, which took a lot of heating and pounding and then reheating. I'm trying to remember how long it took after they had good iron. Overall, though, it showed me why plate armor took so long in our world. /digression
I need to remember that we aren't in our world and there is magic. The other PCs could help in small ways that add up. If they start with high grade iron, that's a lot of the time done. If the wizard can help heat the forge, that's time saved. Tools could be better and so on.
Thanks for the great discussion! It's giving me a lot to think about both with PF2 and my own campaign!
I'm using Forgotten Realms. I have been using FR for the past forty years with my own timelines. I have reset it several times back to 1357DR and I don't have the Time of Troubles or the Spellplague happen, for those that know of them. I mention this because I'm using the lore of FR as my guide or to make decisions about dragons. That means that dragons are solitary creatures, per the lore, except when hatchlings or for mating purposes. (Dragons of Faerun for 3.5E) That's why I think of them as solo creatures. I need to decide what to do with this going forward. It also means that metallic and chromatic are the most common, followed by gem and then undead. I'm working on placing the other PF2 types.
I do agree that, in my case, using a PL+2 dragon did mean I had to increase the breath weapon to challenge them in the way I wanted. It was only a critical failure on a breath weapon that brought one of the player characters down. The others were hurt but with potions and the cleric, were back above bloodied soon enough. The rogue, as expected, took no damage.
I disagree that the white dragon is a "even the dumb ol’ bestial white dragon, that overgrown labrador" by far! The young white dragon as INT -1 with adult at +1 and Ancient at +2. The Beast definition says -3 or higher. -1 is possible for a starting character with an INT flaw. I get why it was said but disagree. In my case, I was using the +1 Adult.
At a certain point in PF1, around tenth to twelfth level and higher, numbers could overcome huge CR differences. In PF2, though, numbers can't make up for a large PL difference. In other words, it becomes dependent on luck of the roll. In a different fight, I had a copper dragon join the group against cloud giants. The dragon was Creature 7 and the cloud giants being Creature 11 was too much of a difference for the dragon. It hit only with breath weapon, resisted by a basic save, and a few lucky first attacks.
The good and the bad of PF2 is the tight math. The Cloud Giants Creature 11 against players of level 9 was almost too much for the group. They had higher than average magical gear for their level and the barbarian still needed a nat 20 to get a crit. This is not a bad thing. It's a feature of the game. I think it means that a PL+3, much less higher, is going to be too much for a party. I will see.
YuriP wrote:
Yes this isn't enough to make the dragon win but we have to remember that the main objetive of a TTRPG isn't make the dragon win. It is make the dragon dangerous and challenging.
Again, we get into game design here. If you are defining challenging as the dragon may win, then we agree. If my players weren't stubborn and challenging meant they retreat, then we agree. If monsters are designed to lose, no matter how interesting, I find that bad design. That assumes within the standard guidelines for encounter design. That is the downside of any level based game. It's trivial for a GM to kill the player characters. Pick any monster at PL+5 and the player characters lose. For me, the PL system needs to tell me how close the fight will be, which is almost synonymous with how tough the fight is. I keep reading how tight the math is and to keep within the guidelines for treasure and encounters. I have already found exceptions to these rules. That is merely me having to learn those exceptions to PF2.
@Mathmuse, thanks for the clarifications! Interesting on the shield. I find that very interesting. That does make shield use non intuitive.
I think PF2 has a lot of these strange situations. No game is going to be perfect, of course. PF1 was more simulation. The system tried to simulate reality. It breaks down after twelfth level but works reasonably well until then. Mostly. PF2 seems to have these ideas that look to simulate reality, as well as a game can, and then throws them out the window at times. My best example of that is crafting. Going back to my crafting example, someone making a breast plate, with the formula, has a start up cost of a day. Then it will take them several months in Craft checks to finish it, which is reasonable. Or we can throw reality out the window like the rules do and by paying the rest of the gold, it's done in a day or two. These are the kind of contradictions I keep finding in PF2.
I'm rambling and please don't take these as anything other than me figuring out the system. I appreciate PF2 for many of the things I will nit pick it on. I much prefer it over PF1 where the Reflex of the rogue was so high that they couldn't get hit by Reflex save effects. I do wonder how big of a range I will see with bonuses among the player characters.
@ruzza, that is awesome! Thanks for sharing!
While that answers my question of how to bring down a flyer, Trip attack probably with a readied action, it does create some issues for me. Mainly, a medium, or small, sized creature being able to trip a dragon to bring them down! Again, that's the trade off for a fun game and so something I have to work to overcome in my mind.
It's because I don't know how do you rule shields. But my players learn learned the hard way early that to not block critical with shield. Instead is better to take all damage and then heal once that repair a shield during an encounter is unfeasible and switch shields wastes too much actions. So they just restrict to block only normal damage this basically stop them to break shields.
It is a good tactic - but this is so much the opposite of expectations that it really hurts my enjoyment of PF2.
I'm not sure what you meant here? Could you please clarify what your expectations were? How does it hurt your enjoyment?
Errenor wrote:
Jon Goranson wrote:
If an area of attack by a solo monster does a third of any characters hit points, was that an effective attack for it to win?
There are no solo monsters in PF2. Well, maybe of 25th+ level, but not less. 17th level dragon is not a boss for 20th level characters.
CR doesn't exist in pf2 either.
Fair points. I'm still learning PF2, so that's on me. I will try and watch it but appreciate the corrections.
One thing I need to explain about my DMing is that my players, over the past thirty years, come to the table expecting to be able to handle what is thrown at them. No matter how many times I tell them retreat is valid, that's not what they do. Someone might say to have a TPK, which I did, and then they weren't happy with me that the fight wasn't winnable. All of that to say that when I design an encounter, I try and make it something they can win, even if it's tough.
On shields, I think we are using RAW with regards to shields. They need to have their shields raised before they can block, unless they have feats or other things that allow for it. My players seem to be the opposite of yours in that they want to save the shield block for a critical hit but will use it on a hit to reduce some damage. As a group, they probably have one shield break per combat that they need to repair.
On Dragons: A lot of things on that, as I said in my post, where I talked about game design. I may be doing some things wrong in my combats, per RAW, since I used the white dragon in my example as a solo. The dragon was CR+2, which seems like it should be a good encounter.
I think you have two questions. Let me flip your first question back on you. If an area of attack by a solo monster does a third of any characters hit points, was that an effective attack for it to win? I say no because if that's all it does on its turn, they aren't even bloodied, they can last another round. Even if it could use its breath weapon again the next round, it still wouldn't take out on character on average. With no penalties based on hit points, until zero hit points, they all have full actions. Further, they can spend their last action to take a potion, to further reduce the effect of the breath weapon. In that same fight, if the breath weapon did two thirds of their hit points in damage, the cleric is probably going to heal, which takes them out of inflicting damage. Even then, the dragon, or opponent, still faces the other three characters' full actions.
For the seventh level characters where they take half damage, that's better but almost as ineffective. Since the dragon can't follow that up the next round with its breath weapon, it's likely many will have received healing or used a potion to get back up over half, to know they can survive another hit like that. Again, is that good?
The second question you have is about fireball. Do I think fireball does low damage? No. A fireball is two actions out of the standard four character party's 12 total actions. Further, by RAW, it's a basic save so there is a chance the dragon takes no damage. (That is very disheartening from what I have seen among my players, which is a small sample.) If it was upcast, it might be doing more, and if the monsters have more than one creature, the fireball spreads out the damage. When looked at with all other factors, the fireball is at the correct place to me.
Again, though, I'm looking at a dragon as a solo, which it isn't supposed to be in PF2, if I understand it better now.
As fo flying, as I said, sure, I could have the dragon fly and harass them with breath weapon and a few fly by attacks. It's good tactics but it's not a fun fight. That's me, though.
I'm equally asking both what Paizo did in their monster design and if others think they did well in that design. Should the dragon take out one character a round by hit point damage? By a condition? Do they need to reduce the standard four party group to nine actions, with some of those going to help the party member who dropped? I don't know. I don't have the answer to that. What I do know is that I really liked the Ground Slam ability of the white dragon and how it worked, on a rules level, to control the battlefield. I don't see the other dragons, of any kind, having something like that.
I apologize, but I don't understand your last statement. It could be my tired brain.
Thanks to all of the responses! I really appreciate it! My questions below are for clarification on what the poster said, not an attack on them or what they think.
@YuriP - I'm surprised you don't see shields broken but of course, I don't know your group. In my group, all but the wizard have a Sturdy Shield (lesser) and use it often. Two players weren't using shields until they saw the effectiveness of them and decided to use them. Not every combat sees one of their shields broken but usually hit. Shields have been a great add, IMO, for the tactical thinking it brings to combat.
I do think the breath weapon needs to do more damage, upwards of 75% more dice. This gets into a lot of topics about game design, monster design, roles of monsters, and more. I'm not saying I'm an expert. More on this below.
@OrochiFuror I do want clarification on a few things you said. Going back to game design, I agree that PF2 doesn't have Solo monsters. Maybe I'm lamenting that? There are some monsters that I want that but might be asking something from the system that it doesn't do.
Encounters with a creature that can fly and attack, like a dragon, can be tough if a group has no ranged weapons or way to bring them down. (Are there rules for how to stop a flyer from flying? If so, please point them out to me.) In my specific case with the white dragon, she was trying to lure them away from their camp, so didn't fly until they were over a hundred feet away and she could get to the camp and attack the NPCs they were protecting and it took two rounds (about five actions) for them to get back in range.
I think the DM can always plan an encounter that will take out their group. It could be a high CR or a group designed to target the player characters weaknesses. It's not a fun combat, though, for me or my players. I want combat to be tough and give the players a sense of accomplishment in having defeated something as powerful as a dragon. I want that in such a way that it doesn't feel like I'm pulling my punches. That's why I really liked Ground Slam. That's an ability a dragon can use while on the ground to make the dragon feel like they can land to attack. Without that, I don't know why the dragon wouldn't use their breath weapon on them until the characters were dead. For me, that's good tactics but it's not a fun game.
I do think you say that a dragon shouldn't go toe to toe with a group but then have some good tactics that could allow it. I don't disagree with those tactics. As I talk about above, it is what the dragon should do but it's a boring fight that is probably frustrating a group that can't negate the fly ability of the dragon.
The Ground Slam and its Step negated two actions from the players every round for any who fell prone, because they had to stand and Step back. The rogue usually went first after that and if they were still standing due to reflex being their best, they lost flanking or two actions to step and use a feat to get the dragon off guard to them. Then the fact that the white dragon could do this every round, multiple attempts of it, really made the white dragon feel like a solo monster. A one action option that does some damage, potentially knocks their enemies over, and they get to Step as well? *Chef's kiss*
Thanks for pointing out some other good options, like the impaling charge or swallow whole. I agree good options. For me, it's finding that balance of fun but playing the dragon to win. I think overall Ground Slam is better due to action economy. In this case, Impaling Charge is two actions, which could provoke Reactive Strikes, especially if they fly as their last action. Swallow Whole ends up being two actions, the grab and the Swallow Whole attempt, if I understand it, is a MAP after the bite. Ground Slam seems better in comparison but I could be wrong.
I do need to get better at telegraphing a dragon. I read and use a lot of ideas from other games, such as Level Up:A5E, and the Lore sections and hinting at creatures is great.
@Mathmuse Thanks for the summaries. I do agree that PF2 dragons are better. I think I want to see even more on that front by RAW. (I know I can add it, and will, but discussion is easier with RAW.) I think dragon lairs need their own entry, description, and abilities to make attacking a dragon there more dangerous but more reward. I could see an air based environment being electricity, especially for a Cloud Dragon, but that's me. I think expanding on dragon tactics would be great, so if there is a book like the draconomicon for PF2, let me know!
Again, thanks for the replies! I really appreciate them all!
Part of this discussion is due to the release of the 2025MM and the discussion on ENWorld about the Gold Dragon stats. It got into game design, which I found interesting. I'm oversimplifying this but two ideas were brought up the most often. A dragon needs to take out a character a turn versus a dragon needs to do a lot of damage to more than half the party each turn. I do think that 2025DND assumes a dragon as a solo monster, but I could be wrong on that. As @OrochiFuror said, and many agreed which is why there was the debate, the dragon couldn't stand up to an equal level, much less the listed idea of the party being even seven levels lower. (Darn inconsistency of CR.) One person ran in Roll20 an Ancient Gold Dragon of CR24 against a group of four 17th level characters. While the dragon won, it was not an easy win and the dice "failed" the characters at just the right time on what should have been a 90% success chance.
In that case, CR is different and a seven level difference in PF2 means the lower level doesn't stand a chance. If I understand the encounter building rules, a CR+2 or CR+3 should be a tough fight. I do see that the examples in GM Core don't have anything Solo, so that may require me getting over dragon's being alone and have them bring minions of some type along.
Again, thanks for the discussion! I really appreciate it! Take care!
I am playing PF2 but know PF1 better so probably use some terms from there. Sorry for any confusion.
Any thoughts on the Ground Slam of the White Dragon for all others?
I also think that dragon breath weapons need to be 50% more.
Yes on shields. Last night in a fight, the party were getting hit by big hits that were breaking their shields and leaving them at less than twenty percent hit points on the shield. That tracks better. I still like the idea of the option of using it for one final block but it does destroy the shield. Discussing it with my players for a house rule.
I think I'm finding some weird places where PF2 exists. Some gamist elements for balance, some simulation stuff for realism, while leaving most story elements up to the group. No game will be perfect for me but PF2 is a good high fantasy base game for me.
Thanks for the clarification on crafting. I missed the change in days for the times.
I apologize. I am trying to discuss RAW and if the answer for a reason, is because of "the rules say so" or "balance" that's fine. At least I understand the intent of them. In talking with a player, sure, if the shield is damaged and then they get hit by a critical hit, that might break the shield. Otherwise, shields were broken in the game at only half hit points, which is why I wondered why they can't still be used. I could see at quarter damage, it's useless but still repairable but that's as subjective as half! I'm not sure if I will do that or leave it.
As for Foundry, yep, hate to lose the automation! I did figure out with the movement. I had Elevation Ruler installed and wasn't using the PF2 rules on it. I will miss the color coding of movement but that's minor to having it.
New question.
Why don't all dragons have Ground Slam like the white dragon? Or do they have something that's similar but I'm missing it? The fight, which I think should have been more difficult with a Dragon at CR+2, was easy for them. If not for Ground Slam costing their characters two actions to get up and move, for the free Step the dragon got, the dragon wouldn't have gotten away. (I know there are feats for it, but I let them reload, change weapons, or pick one up with a move action. If not for that, Ground Slam would stop all attacks from those characters that failed.) I think I had to double the breath weapon dice as well. Even then, only a failed save dropped a character. That made the breath weapon scary!
In my limited experience in running dragons, that sort of ability is needed by all of them. Maybe not Ground Slam specifically, although I'm pretty sure all my dragons going forward will have it, but something that allows that control of the battlefield for them. It makes them feel like a Solo Monster at CR+2.
I also think it's too bad that Freezing Blood is not a free action for every attacker using slashing or piercing damage. I'm also disappointed that at least the chromatics don't have damage causing aura's. It's very thematic to me. I probably will add them to mine!
I am now running two PF2E groups and loving it. I'm still new to the system, so have questions. We use Foundry, so I think some of the questions I have are from its automation. When it works, it's great, but it seems my second level group overwhelmed Foundry with all of the automation such that it struggled to work. Movement is still janky with it. Those are Foundry issues, though, not PF2.
Crafting - Am I correct in thinking that the system still assumes X amount of gold, or time, spent on equipment? The crafter spends half the gold and four days then spends the rest to finish it then or uses the crafting table to keep going until the other half is paid for. (If I have done the math right, a 2gp level 0 steel shield takes four days base then 20 days at 5 cp per day, or 24 days total.)
I get that depending on the GM, world, that some equipment might only be available if the characters make it themselves, so it's a good option to have. It's either a lot of time or full cost + four days.
(For fun, level 0 chain mail would be four days then sixty days. A level 2 full plate, top mundane equipment, would be four days then fifty days.)
On shields, has there been a reason that they aren't usable for partial AC in broken condition? In the games I have going, I have not seen a shield get destroyed in a level+2 appropriate encounter. Immediately get broken by a critical hit, yes, but not close to destroyed. I think the option to use the broken shield for some AC, and some blocking, more meaningful than it can't be used at all and can be repaired.
If these have been asked and answered, point me to them! I searched but couldn't find anything like this.
Why have you waken me? Why?.. It has been 4 years!..
This easily could have been a new thread...
Tyriphian the Thread Psychopomp wrote:
And this is why this should have been a new thread.
Searching in forums, there are 272 results when searching for "Treat Wounds." By adding to threads that exist, people can read what has already been discussed instead of repeating themselves or pointing to these threads. I asked several more questions based on RAW that could be answered as well. I then asked in the existing homebrew thread my non RAW questions for the same reason.
Errenor wrote:
And yes, healer's kit is never used up. Everything is infinitely useable unless stated otherwise. You are not wearing or holding item which is lying on the floor. Don't skimp on pennies.
Do you think the wording is precise enough that they have to hold it the whole time? Or do they only have to have it to start the treatment?
Has anyone else been in the position I have where all characters have Medicine and a paladin with focus spells? If so, by the RAW, time has to be figured out to see how long it takes to heal everyone full and for the paladin to get their focus points. Do the groups take the time to figure out the timing? If not, hand waving it is homebrew, which is fine, and I'm wanting to know what other groups do in a similar situation to mine.
Can someone Treat Wounds while having their own wounds treated? It seems so as the RAW doesn't require anything from the one being treated. That makes the circle of healing I had viable, regardless of the healer's toolkit answer, since they all have one. It's also one of those it's RAW but it's strange as a narration.
Do groups use the full hour Treat Wounds version and find it worth it? My group missed that part of it and I'm curious both what they will do an what others use.
I put a response in the other forum for RAW. I want to ask a question about what is homebrew here.
I like your system, Zapp, assuming you created Henrio's Adventurer's Rest.
I'm looking for alternatives and am posting my thoughts here.
What if a Healer's Toolkits were limited to 10 uses?
What if an Expanded Healer's Toolkit was limited to 15 uses and was 2 bulk?
My group already does not like the dwarf's slower movement, so going over in bulk is not an option.
Due to bulk, even if all five have a healer's toolkit, they will go through that many uses quickly. It might make them pause. Or will all this do, in my case, is push them to use Lay on Hands more?
What if, as per the Henrio's rules, Treat Wounds, standard rules, could only happen once between encounters? With the infinite healer's toolkit, it will be used. With the limited healer's toolkit, they might think about it. Maybe it pushes them to make more potions or scrolls.
I think what throws me off about this is I'm too used to how bad 2E DND was in healing with no cleric. There were two players, me and another guy, and the DM, and it was brutal. After one fight, we had to find a place to hide and rest for three days! Natural Healing seems needed but superfluous due to Medicine.
Or, equally, does it merely create a different mini game? The point is to get back to full hit points between encounters without nerfing the person who is trained in Medicine. Rolling is fun and getting that critical for more healing is also a lot of fun, so not sure I want to get rid of that.
I'm writing my Treat Wounds question here, in an old thread, as I think the people who have responded will give me good feedback.
I find Treat Wounds fiddly but that might be because of the group I have. I have five players and they all took proficiency in Medicine. Okay, technically, the Barbarian took the feat that lets him use Nature as Medicine to Treat Wounds but it's effectively the same thing. On top of that, I have a Cleric and Paladin as well, so at least Lay on Hands as a focus is an option.
Now, the group is great. They recognize there are times when they can't take even ten minutes to heal, so use spells and potions and keep going. I think what is making this frustrating to me is the time and efficiency component with focus spells. The cleric does have Continual Recovery so they recover from his Treat Wounds faster. We end up in this circle of healing where character A is treating B is treating C is treating D is treating E is treating A. I think it's only gone four deep though.
Time has been an issue, so it has become this mini game of figuring out who the cleric should Treat Wounds, since they can do that again after only ten minutes. Are enough wounded that the paladin should use up focus points for lay on hands and then do they have enough time left to refocus? If we go one hour, who should the paladin lay on hands, and will they get both focus points back by the end? Can the paladin refocus and treat wounds?
Is it also RAW that a healer's kit is never used up? A mundane item is infinite supply? I mean, they (they being Paizo) created the Treat Wounds system, PF1 had a limit of 10 uses on a healer's kit, and the PF2 healer's kit gives infinite? What else does PF2 give infinite supply of mundane things? Oh, to be really pedantic, the requirements of the healer's pack are "you're wearing or holding a healer's toolkit" but it doesn't say for the whole time. It seems to be that in the circle of healing, they could have the healer's kit in the middle and it meets that requirement. Where is this wrong?
Yes, I have sent customer service three emails. They usually respond faster than this.
Paizo might not have any other control but UPS bounced it back to them saying to check with them since the tracking number doesn't have any information.
I have emailed and hadn't heard back so I thought I would try here.
I ordered several things back on July 18. I saw the update that it shipped Aug 5 but I have not yet received it yet. It's marked as Complete in My Account but I have nothing.
UPS has nothing on the tracking numbers and their system says to check with the shipper when that happens.
Can I get an update on this? Or an answer to my emails?
Oh, I should mention, I do throw out balance in favor of the players, which also means I don't use, in PF1 games, flat bonuses for Bard abilities. I let the Bard roll their performance for Inspire and it can go higher based on the roll. Completely throws out balance but makes the Bard even more valuable and the players love it! Yes, I do it for both sides.
I let concept of the character to guide things more so allow spell casters to create spells on the fly if it fits the character. Or the group says, "Wow!"
Oh, I wouldn't mind seeing a silver standard system. I went back to the non decimal system of coins (1 gold = 20 silver = 200 cp) because I find that to be more real. However, the main reason I want that is so that items aren't so expensive. Top tier PF1 items cost more than the biggest manor house in the most expensive city in Golarion and that makes no sense to me.
Really, I also want more support tools. I am making some of them myself but the idea is all items in an excel spreadsheet with costs and then I can create columns to allow some changes in costs. It's not to create a full on economy to create merchants of the PCs but to have variations in prices.
New Paths Compendium does have a White Necromancer which a player used in a campaign and it was good. It has an option Priest, a Warlock, and Theurge as well, all twenty level classes. And more! (I'm not affiliated with it but I do like the options.)
What I would want are books that expand the Unchained rules. (with full hero lab classic support, preferably) Now, this may end up being small as there is a lot in Unchained already. I use three action economy in my PF1 games already, with 3 actions on their turn and one reaction outside of their turn. I'm also pretty forgiving on what that reaction is. Maybe they use it to move out of the way on another player's turn, for example.
I like the consolidated skills, mainly because I like Athletics and Acrobatics as good, generic skills to handle, STR and DEX based actions. I do like the proficiency levels of PF2 as a way to show when certain things can be made. I want to see cleaned up feats or at least pared down. This assumes the same number of feats to allow options. For example, maybe all metamagic feats that add one level are one feat and a spellcraft check. Although, I wouldn't mind Ancestry feats as well as adding them as separate feats gained every other or third level on top of the standard feat. I'm not for bounded accuracy, at least not forced, but fewer bonus types to AC, maybe non armor type is limited to five, could do that.
I do like PF2 multi class rules and wouldn't mind some way of allowing that as an option, where feats or skill points control when things are learned in the second class. But at a third or half rate of base class.
I like bringing back the randomness of 3E. Instead of flat bonuses, make it a roll but make it a roll every round. Bless adds d4 to attack and fear based saves and they get to roll every round. Prayer, then, adds d4 to attacks, damage, all saves, and they roll every round. It's a lot of fun and I have been doing that in my current PF1 games. Could do this for the attribute spells and any spell that is fixed, instead make it variable for more fun with it. (It also allows magic to be more magically and less predictable but hopefully in a fun way.) Heh. This could go on other spells. Blink or displacement give flat fifty percent miss chances but what if that varies by up to twenty percent each time it's rolled?
(Now, yes, anytime this is done, it goes against the players and their characters, who are there all the time and rolling more than any given NPC. That's what the DM is for, to help make sure it's fun and works for the group.)
Now, there is more but this gives an idea basically of what I was hoping from PF2. I don't think a game can achieve balance and would rather see them give advice on how to run unbalanced games by talking to players, setting expectations, and going by rule of cool rather than thinking that one more rule will make it balanced. For example, I rarely see any players take Prestige Classes. If Prestige Classes "broke" balance and did do more things, I think they would be even more valuable and sought after, than what I have seen.
CM: But it's not that they are better in a punch fest, it's also that the martial's saves were so good that they would at least save and reasonably critically save against spells. In my example, the caster would have to run and if they can't fly/teleport, they lose.
If the caster can win in the casting side of it, I guess my question is was that intended?
O: Again, I think it's worse. I don't expect the sorcerer to beat up the martial, but the sorcerer is dominated.
I'm late in getting to some things, so apologize but a quick search didn't yield anything. I'm playing around with Hero Lab Online (HRO) and made a 17th level Sorcerer and a 20th level paladin just for fun and to see the numbers. The numbers scare me.
Now, I'm sure that HRO isn't updated with final rules but I am curious if what I'm seeing is correct. My assumption is that a three level gap like the above isn't bad. I also thought they were flattening the numbers and not going to go as high.
In the case of the 17th level sorcerer v a 20th level paladin:
Paladin: +5 full plate for AC 44, TAC 40. Saves are F+32, R+25, W+30. +4 Bastard Sword. +32/27/22. Damage: 5d8+6 Hit Points: 328
Sorcerer: Mage Armor: AC 33, TAC 33. Saves are F+27, R+22, W+27. Spell attack is +24. Spell DCs are 34. +3 Mace is +21/16/11. Damage: 4d6+1 +3 Crossbow are +20/15/10 Damage: 4d8 Hit Points: 178
This sorcerer is outclassed at all points. Spells that require an attack means he can't get a critical, only hits on a 20, a 16+ for TAC. He only hits on physical attacks on a 20. Spells are saved on a 2, 9, or 4, for F/R/W. Reflex doesn't critical save often but other two might, which seems to be no damage.
The paladin is going to win. Assuming he can get close and the sorcerer doesn't run away, he hits on a 2/6/11, so more than half the time. A normal long sword gives him 29/24/19, which hits on a 4/9/14. Might take longer as the damage d8+6 isn't great for the level. I didn't intend for these two to fight and gave the paladin Angelic Form, so the sorcerer has to teleport to get away as flight won't do it.
To compare again, I made a 20th level Rogue.
Rogue: Dagger +30/26/22. Damage: 4d4+6 +2 leather AC 39, TAC 38. Saves aren't as important but F+24 R+31 W+26. Hit Points: 206
So, the rogue has a few more options. Legendary sneak to maybe get a +2 flank but still only hits on a 12 for flanking, 14 otherwise. Poisons might also help wear him down but it would be drawn out and not guaranteed as the Paladin hits on 7/12/17. Not to mention Lay on Hands to help. Maybe a readied action by the paladin allows one hit and his damage is higher for his weapon. Sneak attack is only +4d6 at 20th level.
First of all, do these numbers look right? I have made assumptions and corrections are fine. Second, from a numbers standpoint, is that what is expected?
Looking at an ancient Black Dragon, better numbers than the sorcerer but not by much. An Ancient Blue Dragon or Red Dragon would be tougher but possible. (Also, do I read it correctly that dragons can choose between bite, claw, and tail as they prefer in any combination up to three?)
I'm excited about PF2E the more I have read about it, watched videos, and played in the character creator. When I brought down the print outs of these characters, I was shocked at these numbers, so had to share and ask where I went wrong. Or if I did.
I'm sure PF2.0 will have its own recommendations regarding the amount of xp to award for an adversary of a given challenge level. Since you need a flat amount for each level, the xp award will also have to be flattened, so an APL1 group will get just as much xp from a CR2 foe as an APL8 group gets from a CR9 foe.
I took it a different way but obviously don't know for sure. If they are trying to simplify the math for the DMs, having foes be worth a variable amount seems counter-intuitive to that goal. Instead of having an xp per foe, as they do now, they are going to have to go back to the ECL v EL chart to figure out xp.
I took it that this is going to allow them to look a monster and decide how many of them should be a level, based on their own goals for the game. If they think it's worthy of gaining a level defeating a monster, they make that monster worth 1000 xp. (I never remember if you divide or not, so I guess up to 4k xp for the standard four character party?)
Yes, CR is also an indicator of when it should be fought and how tough it will be but now xp will do that as well at a glance.
The secondary effect of that, which I also surmised but could be wrong, is that monsters will be a challenge at all levels. A party can't ignore the group of orcs with the giants anymore. This also allows better "team ups" in my opinion because it does allow orcs to be with a giant, instead of some lesser giant progression. (i.e. orcs with ogre with ettin with hill giant with fire giant.) Now you can put orc servitors with any giant type. Further, if the DM wants, now it's an option for the orcs to rise up against the giants if they don't like the giants anymore, whereas in current rules, the orcs wouldn't stand a chance against giants.
I could be completely wrong; it's just how I took it.
I'm also curious when this will happen. I understand that they want to get the news out; I'm merely disappointed that they can't announce it closer to its release.
The question was asked why it doesn't fit fantasy and, again only for me, it evokes a later time than the fantasy I prefer or think about.
So, how do you feel about the alchemist and investigator? They are also very Victorian/Edwardian character types.
Thanks for the questions and reply!
The reason I don't find Alchemist Victorian is that the term alchemist has been around a while. Egyptian alchemists learned how to gold plate things. Then it went to the Middle East and came back to Europe in the Middle Ages. The term itself doesn't take me out of my thoughts on fantasy. Now, to go a step further, the abilities of it can at times. Making bombs, and that term, isn't fantasy. I guess I accept it because in a world of magic, the medieval scientist, the alchemist, learned some spells and limited technology that works. It works for me in a way that (the terms) Occultist, Spiritualist, and Medium don't.
As for Investigator, that's because I'm a Grognard! :) This was a term used back in the 2E Complete Rogue's book as a way to think of Rogues that made sense for them to be in a group. It's more than that but specific to me.
As for complexity, only for me, I use Hero Lab, so a lot of that is figured out for me in game.
Again, haven't had time to reread them but want to do so!
Occult Adventures turned me off due to the name, both of the book and the class names. Occult, Mesmerist, Spiritualist, Medium, Psychic, and mind powers in general, aren't fantasy to me. These terms in particular, evoke Victorian London, seances, and eventually Houdini debunking them. I, personally, never found psionics or powers like this satisfying in fantasy.
The question was asked why it doesn't fit fantasy and, again only for me, it evokes a later time than the fantasy I prefer or think about. Again, I think more of a Victorian/Edwardian times than fantasy when I hear these terms. I also see combat having changed from melee to ranged, with revolvers and rifles, with little or no armor, which again isn't fantasy to me.
(As much as I loved Dark Sun, the 2E psionic system was rough. I think I like it better now that I think of Dark Sun as magical post apocalyptic world.)
Having said that, the discussion here has made me want to relook and reevaluate, and try and get past those terms. The Kineticist sounds like the 3.5 Warlock, which I liked.
So, thanks for the discussion and want to look again at this and see what I think about it with, hopefully, fresh eyes and insights into it!
Can someone give me an idea of how this plays? I have it and have read it but don't quite grok how it will play. I guess I'm looking for specific examples in play of what a pact binder did. What role did they play in the party and how did they stack up against the other standard character classes?
I got this as a PDF and went to print it out and it wouldn't print out start from page one. Eventually, I figured out that if I started from page 7 of the pdf, labeled 5 in the book, that I could print the rest of the book no problem. This was with a double sided printer.
Playing with it more, this is what I found.
Adobe will not print page one, no matter what I do. It fails on flattening and won't print.
Adobe won't print any double sided attempts with page one. Won't happen.
Adobe won't print page three and four as a double sided page. It just fails to go to the printer. I don't even see it show up in my printer spooler.
Adobe will print page two as a single page but not page three as a single page.
Adobe will print page four as a single page.
Adobe will print page five and six (labeled nothing and page 4 in the PDF) as double sided if printed by themselves.
I did have it still in a zip archive and so upzipped and tried it again with the same results.
Finally, I used FoxIt and that printed the first six pages double sided (although that's more of a printer setting, I'm sure) first time.
(Please note that Adobe will use absolute pages with numbers whereas FoxIt will use the document's internal number system when printing pages.)
And we are back to Alternity! I will be running another Dark*Matter/Supernatural/WoD campaign using Alternity rules. My players have really enjoyed the Alternity rules and think it's a great system for modern/future games.
I'm also getting back into adding more to the Hero Lab files I created for Alternity.
At the moment, I have been naming people based on ethnic background, as mentioned above. However, are there any countries that have a national identity that have created their own names?
I'm wondering if a country like Ustalav is united enough with history such that it has many peoples but uses some common names?
Maybe the better examples are Galt and Andoran. I see Galt as France and would use medieval French names for them. Andoran, though, I could see as a place that many have gone for freedom and cast off their old ways to integrate into the country. Again, in that case, maybe there are many ethnic groups but they use similar names.
I'm putting names into Tablesmith and here is what I have done so far.
Varisian - Besides the given names, which get a higher chance of a hit, I used Gypsy names from Gygax's Ex Book of Names (GEBoN), D-Percent Bulgarian Names and D-Percent Romanian names.
Shoanti - Again, the suggested names from several official sources and then Celtic from GEBoN. I'm seeing that might not fit the best but not sure what else to use. Maybe Art of Wars American Indian names?
Taldan - I pulled the created Roman one in Tablesmith over but then also used Terra Ferrax's Roman names to add to it and also give more possibilities in patterns.
Chelish - then is Roman and Italian, pulling from modern as well as medieval.
(I have many sources for Roman names and so have combined many.)
Elves - Besides Elves of Golarion, I'm also using Terra Farrax's Elves, again with some good ideas for prefixes, suffixes and titles or nicknames in the patterns.
Half Elf - Either elf or human area from, as needed.
Kellids - Not sure what to do with this one yet other than source material.
Ulfen - Source material and I will be doing Norse and Viking for them, again from Art of War or others as I see them.
What I really want/need is to take what I have and make them fit. I have GEBoN, as mentioned, but also some name lists from various places. So, Gaelic from TF, various nationalities from D-Percent, and some other Art of War names. Anyone have any thoughts or do more with this zombie thread?
You seem to be describing the area I'm using for my campaign! It's the area NW of Korvosa and west of Kaer Maga. That seems as if it might fit the bill as well.
Overall, I would give the AP a 2.5. Looking back at everything, there is just too much I found lacking in the adventure. It had some really good highs, most notably the play in Sixfold Trial, but it had a lot of lows as well, mostly in its inability to give good advice or even tell assumptions that they had about the AP.
I ended up running the AP in this order: 1,2,3,5,4 with six being the ideas for politics all through the campaign. I think ending the campaign with the PCs fighting a freed Pit Fiend and a powered up Mayor and noble houses (I made those up) was better than the dungeon run that was four.
Advice for those going to run it:
Figure out what alignment you want and if they pick lawful or neutral, be prepared to make a LOT of changes. The AP seems to assume a chaotic, non lawful group who are willing to work outside of the law to save the city. That's fine if that's what you have and it does set up some of the concepts the AP introduces later. But if the players don't want to be outlaws, or are just lawful and wouldn't be outlaws, it'g going to take some figuring out on what to do.
Introduce the nobles and politics much sooner. Module six doesn't even read well as an adventure. It's all of these stand alone fights that serve only to give a final bonus to the end Fame Check without giving Fame itself. It's a confusing mess leading up to the confrontation with Eccardian and doesn't work. By the time the PCs free the city from Ilnerik's creatures of the night, the PCs had better already know the major families and some minor houses as well. Specifically, as much fun as the play is in module two, the Cornucopia needs a completely different agenda as well as more nobles in attendance. For a noble house not to be there is an insult. This should show the lines of which nobles are doing what and who they support. Information that the PCs can use later in how they approach the houses. (And none of this is spelled out, so DMs will need to figure this out. I personally went with three factions, one for the Council, one for the Mayor who was resentful of the power the council took from him, and one that just wants to help the city.)
I personally moved all of the action to Rego Cader and put Vizio's Tavern, Massacre House and the Devildrome all there. I then used the Ultimate Campaign to "map" out the region, so we could all see how it was going. The PCs slowly acquired land there and came to care for the people there, rather than running around vaguely helping the town.
Have at least two fights at night before the Night Terrors, as we called them, are defeated. Make them fights that the PCs must run from or die. If they think they can win by just fighting stuff, they will. In one fight, I had wave after wave of vampire spawn coming in from one side and some devil spell casters backed up by shadow creatures (I would have to look it up for the specifics if anyone wants to know) so that I didn't have to metagame and tell the players to run. (And I used those based on level. It could be waves of zombies or ghouls for lower level characters.) They got the point when the third avenue was cut off from escape and they could hear more from the other ways out. Further, it makes it a lot more personal when they do defeat the Night Terrors and know the streets are safe.
In the end, my group and I had a lot of fun and I did what I'm supposed to do as the GM, which is to run an adventure we will all enjoy. I think I did that. For my group, though, there is no way I could have run the AP straight up as it wouldn't have worked with Lawful characters. I could have suggested an alignment and course to go and run it a bit closer to how it was written but the players came to the table with characters and many aspects did work, including the two noble characters. So I used that rather than force something on them.
Again, I skipped module four and went to five. Well, that's not completely true. I'm using both five and six, at least the ideas of them, imo, although probably not that close.
Several things have changed. Again, the wiki shows more of the plot and I will try and limit what I talk about here to the modules themselves.
The group has a lot of alliances among the nobles, as I have said. Further, they are nobles and in good standing, even if a few other nobles don't like them, so module six as written wouldn't work.
To me, module six is the weakest. Introduce a situation/noble/council captain, maybe give some monologue and then have them join the PCs or die fighting. I have been doing politics, and am only now realizing how I didn't do enough, especially for this part. Instead, I introduced the Drovenges and they have politics there with the marriage. Eccobar, the tiefling guard and Duratos Arik brought their rivalry to the Rego Cader.
Since module four didn't happen, the mayor made a deal with Liebdaga to gain more power. However, Liebdaga's bonds are broken and he will be breaking out for my ultimate showdown. In the meantime, the mayor, bolstered by his new abilities and power, has given those nobles on his side more (political/military) power, including the Dottari. He couldn't replace Arik without cause so sent Eccobar there to find cause to take over.
This has brought tension to their area. (Again, they have a tavern, the Massacre House and maybe even Vizio's, which I placed here, as their own.) They are trying to do patrols to keep the area safe but they keep having problems. Further, Arael and Janiven have been fighting and divided the Children. This has made it tense for Arik, Eccobar and the Hellknights that are under one of the PCs control, himself a Hellknight. Their equipment has been attacked, rusting and destroying weapons and armor. The group suspects Eccobar or the Children, the Hellknights blame the Children but there is no proof.
This brings me back to module six. I took the idea of the dopplegangers, which I made greater dopplegangers, and had them kill Janiven months ago and take her place. Slowly, they sowed the seeds of discord among the Children. They also got one of their clan into the Dottari. I didn't think they could pull off the Hellknights, so they weren't infiltrated. All along, then, the group couldn't figure out what was going on. I had them impersonate whoever would cause the most trouble and then get out of there.
Important note: One of the things we decided as a group was that if the PCs ever get to roll, and roll well, then they get information. If I call for a roll, it means there is something for them to learn. If they roll but I don't call for it, I don't have to reveal anything.
Given that note, I set up Janiven and Arael as not agreeing and them slightly not liking Janiven early on. When the (greater) dopplegangers take over, they are very subtle about it and there just isn't any chance for the PCs to figure this out without using magic on them, which they never did. They wanted to find out but couldn't. Further, with three dopplegangers, any of whom could impersonate any of the Children, and eventually got found out that way, it allowed the dopplegangers to have the one questioned able to speak the truth that they didn't have anything to do with whatever the PCs were asking about! The group eventually figured out about the dopplegangers but the dopplegangers fled before the PCs could take care of them. Before doing so, though, all of the Children except Arael are killed and one of the mixed Hellknight orders are as well, keeping tension high.
Another thing that is keeping tensions high is that rumors kept happening about taxes, which the mayor finally imposed on Rego Cader, and managed to get the PCs to agree to be the tax collectors! They knew right away what I was doing, potentially setting them up to be the bad guys, but the PCs paid the monthly taxes out of their own pocket. Rumors still happened but they managed to keep those low.
In the midst of all of this, I run module five mostly as written. I have Arael be the target of the assassination, though, not the PCs with the PCs able to stop it. Then Dog Tongue shows up. They go to the Mother of Flies, get the gifts and contract, and head back. (There is some great stuff on the wiki about specifics, including a teleport mishap, which ends up creating an enemy and getting a powerful item.)
We just finished with the fighting at Wallcourt, which I beefed up for my group. They have reached fifteenth level and two Mythic tiers as well. So they are about to rescue Eirteen, one of the PC's uncle, and go from there.
I can't speak too much more yet about other things, although I am reasonably sure my PCs don't frequent these forums. But the new enemy created and the final showdown with Liebdaga are yet to come as they fight for city!
I think the module has some good ideas but does not flesh them out well enough in these later modules. Further, the later modules really had elements that needed to be introduced at least at the Mayor's party, back in module two, and then work them into it more as the module happened. At least, that's my opinion and what I have been doing.
Another note: Remember that 3E/PF is based on the long game, not the immediate fight. There is just NO WAY that I have seen that the first fight, against rested well played PCs, will be a challenge to them. As long as the fight is withing their CR range (say +/- 3), that first fight won't be tough. The second might not even be tough. But that third and then fourth? Those will be the tough fights. Those are the fights where the casters are low on spells and using backup items. They front line people might not get buffed anymore. To me, this is a big downside of the system because, at least so far, with the politics happening, they just don't have many fights in a day. Wallcourt and Delvehaven are the only places where it happens. The fight in the Devildrome is not challenging because they are ready. Same for the ambush. Even the fight with the forces besieging the Mother of Flies was not terribly tough. So what I needed to (re)learn as a DM was to pace myself and hit them with several fights before the big one, so that it was a challenge. Otherwise, most of the fights seemed to easy. I'm not sure what I will do in some big fights coming up but the other side of that is, at this level, the more prep time they have, the more powerful they are due to Energy Protection, boosted stats, and other buffs. If those have to happen during combat, I think it makes it a lot more tense.
More as I think of it or it happens. Questions and comments always welcome!
Now we are in the grey area. My intention is to run module five, go into module six and at some point in the confrontation, have the mayor's house explode and they have to go save the city from the free and fully functional battle sta-, er, pit fiend.
Two of the players decided they wanted to play nobles. Worked for me so I let them pick by showing them the list of houses and explaining the difference between the major and minor ones. One guy picked a minor house and one picked a major house. It took me until I was re-reading module five to realize what they had done. One picked the Chard house and the other Oberigo. The only houses outside of the mayor and Drovenges, which I didn't allow, that had a written part in the module! This was with no prompting from me!
So, we have had a lot of politics. My group didn't join up with the Children of Westcrown but went on their own very quickly. They quickly gained an Inn/Tavern and built that up and put money into it. Then they claimed Massacre House and set up some Order of the Scourge Hellknights, one of the guys is a Hellknight of that order, up in the Rego Cader to help patrol it and make it safe. They befriended the Duxator of the Rego and were helping him keep the peace and help people against the night terrors.
The two nobles are now being pushed into marrying, which is allowing me to introduce the other houses and the politics. The mayor is making their life hell by assigning the noble who wanted to be Duxator of the Rundottari as the Duxotar's lieutenant, and he's making trouble for everyone. Further, the Children of Westcrown are causing problems because Arael and Janiven are fighting about how best to free their area and help the rest of the city. And it's causing the players problems as well as the Children of Westcrown antagonize both the Hellknights and Dottari, both of whom are trying to help, thanks to the PCs efforts!
This is probably all confusing but you can read about our sessions in more detail at the wiki. The wiki link.
It's been a lot of fun and it took me a while to figure out what I wanted to do with the last modules. I think I'm going to try and get that frantic activity and have them pulled from one disaster to another and see how well they do. Having said that, I do want them to act and not always react, and I'm sure my players will again take me off guard!
I was worried about whether or not the rest of the modules would last through the end of June but I think the fighting coming up as well as the marriages, it should work out about right. Which means we have averaged about one module a month, or every four sessions.
We finished up What Lies in Dust and had a lot of fun with it.
The bad. Actually, I'm having a tough time coming up with anything that stands out as bad.
The good. The non linear aspect of the individual parts was good. My players jumped around a bit in terms of the order to get the clues of Delvehaven but I think they let them feel like they were in control and that's good. Further, we have a LOT of background stuff happening that eventually came to the foreground.
The group ended up doing a ritual to restore all of K and bound her to them. Further, they are working to change her to at least neutral. I'm allowing it as it's a good story.
I expanded on the Massacre House area and created my own maps. The group is doing very well in trying to find lawful ways to go about things and it took a while to get that reason to search around and find Coriana's remains. And then they took me off guard and raised her! She ended up going with them to Delvehaven, I made her a Warpriest, and she was a very good NPC. She didn't overshadow them and felt like she was holding them back when they helped her. She's still around but is helping in the background compared to going with them anymore.
The arena fights went well but since they are higher level, I did up the adversaries Mantathror used against them. Still a good fight!
Delvehaven itself ended up taking three sessions. However, that's only because we started it late one session. Otherwise, it would have been two full sessions to complete it. They had Coriana and K telling them about things and it still took that long!
I did end up making the soul bound dolls quicklings with their listed attacks and special abilities. I think that made more sense. They still only lasted a round but got the creepy point across.
I did use the ideas of the vampires in the module thread about Vahnwynne attacking first, and then Jair letting the Mazeflesh Man go next. However, instead of spawn, I gave them Marrowstone Golems. Further, while Vahnwynne was a single attacker, Jair came forward before they were completely done with the Mazeflesh man when Jair saw how powerful the group was. It was a very close, very exciting fight with them just managing to pull it off!
I think I could give this module a solid four stars for the adventure. I liked the grave candles but the players paid for the resurrection and other rituals, so didn't need as many. I think the setup to find the clues and get the help is also quite good. If anything stand out as bad, it's my understanding that the traps on the grounds of Delvehaven are basically death traps? The characters get caught in a swarm which does damage each round, automatically, for a hundred rounds? Otherwise, a solid adventure.
I had Sian near the entrance because of the ambush she set up in that first hallway. (I suppose, as an explanation, she could have left the Knot but heard them coming and went back in to ambush them.) My group was curious about the body in the hallway and while they were examining it, Sian thought she could take out one of them and then get away.
She was wrong.
Two quick rounds later, she was trapped and eventually surrendered to them. As the PCs were lawful, they accepted it and she honored the bargain she made to get out of there alive. My thought was to add her into the ambush in Mother of Flies, or sometime later, since she was not happy she was defeated!
Correction: I'm using the fast advancement but not from PF but from 3E! Um, wow! Very big difference that I didn't notice. It's no problem for me to adjust things but we are starting the last part of module three and they are several levels ahead of where they should be.
One of the themes of this AP, to me, is the fighting the corruption of the city. To that end, we have done a lot of background stuff in the foreground! What I mean is, I introduced Ultimate Campaign because the group took over the Tavern from the Bastards and turned that into their base. So it became easier to show corruption by getting into those details, instead of just talking about them. I was able to introduce the Rundottari's duxator and his rivalry. I was then able to have the rival come in and start to ruin things! Basically, show the corruption and have the group be affected by it due to their owning a tavern, instead of just telling about it.
The early parts of What Lies in Dust, the information gathering, have gone well. They opened the Chelish Crux, more on that later, and used the items within to good use. What really surprised me was when they got some good treasure and decided to raise Coriana instead of just talk to her! Further, they restored "K" and made a bargain for her to serve them! I love it when players surprise me! This has made the group more powerful but it has been a lot of fun!
I'm hoping that we finish up Delvehaven tomorrow but then comes the big challenge. As I think I said, I'm going to tun the modules out of order and have four be the finale in some way. I'm still working out details on that. So I have done a lot of work on how to switch the order around and what that means.
We are still enjoying it and having a lot of fun with it. I will get into the specific details that we did after we finish up the module but I wanted to put out a quick update.
Okay, we finished module two. I would give the module two and a half stars, rounded up to three.
Bad:
Overall, I think DCs are set too high. Any DC that is higher than about 17 needs to be reduced to at least 17 if not lower. Maybe the skill checks could be 20 and that's still tough.
As I said above, the Cornucopia needed a bit more fleshing out in terms of who was there. Further, I think more ideas about when the nobles would leave, if there were guards/servants that needed to also be incapacitated before the PCs could search the house would have helped as well. Even if just a guard schedule to get an idea that they are there.
The Asmodean Knot was not very good, either. The CRs were all over the place, especially for "standard" 15 point buy fourth level characters. It challenged my PCs and they are much better than that! However, two things especially stand out:
For me, the descriptions of the Tower of Perpetuity (B3) was not done very well. I get that on the plane, anything can happen, but it still needs to be described and then turned into a challenge for the party. I think either a skill challenge of some type, or suggested skills for bonuses to moving around (Knowledge(Planes) or Knowledge(Arcana)) might have been good. However, that pales compared to
the Knot's Heart (B21) is just wrong for this dungeon. I don't know why a Lawful devil that is keeping this going would allow for such a chaotic device. Further, the descriptions given on how to defeat it don't fit such low level characters. I think this one needed to be reworked and rethought. I think a logic puzzle instead with skill rolls to give hints would have been better than this chaotic mess.
The artwork was not very good. Whenever I told my players that a character (Calseinica or Ailyn) was a good looking woman and then showed them the picture? They thought I was showing them a picture of a homely looking male character and so thought they misunderstood me. Even Crosael and Sascar aren't drawn as they are described. I personally don't notice art that much but when my players commented on it, I thought I would mention it.
The good, though, certainly outweighs the bad in this case.
Good:
The play itself was awesome! I realized too late that I could have them read only one scene per showing, to give five to seven showings, depending on few things. I think this would have also allowed for more fame or at least to improve upon rolls. It also would have made more sense, to me, in how they are heard because I think it would have taken two shows before someone like the Lord Mayor would bother to see it. But I think that's more my execution of it than the module itself.
The xp given for role playing was very nice! Some very good ideas for xp and there was easily enough for a level based on role playing. I really appreciated that.
I think this module does a much better job of setting up just how decadent and corrupt the nobles and leaders of the town of Westcrown are. I think that helps set the mood and tone and show the players what their characters are fighting against.
The ideas of some of the bad guys and at least introducing several of the NPCs was quite well done. I also like the final boss, the Outcast King. I didn't get to use the Flawed One as they did manage to bypass him but I think that worked out.
The falling chute corridors really freaked out the PCs such that they tied themselves together and it saved them when the first four failed their checks!
The trapped or insane devils in the Knot were also quite fun to run and really added character to the place.
A few more points, not related to the module. I am using the fast advancement route as well as 25 point buy characters who started a third level. And for all of that, they only got two levels ahead of where they should be. I think that's pretty good for the fights and xp given.
I'm using Campaign Coins and it's awesome! (I know these are expensive but there are a lot of alternatives, from printing fantasy money to plastic coins that other's have used.) I think their ability to hold their coin pouch in their hand and realize that it's quite a bit of money has really been fun and they enjoy it.
I also used Realm Works to reveal the map of the Asmodean Knot and that worked really well! (I'm sure a local running of maptools or other similar type program could do this as well.) I then would draw on the Plexiglas the specific room where a fight occurred.
Thanks for reading. Specifics and some plot points can be found at our wiki.
We are about four fifths of the way through module two. We have done the play and that was a lot of fun. We did the party and I think it went well but had questions on it. We are currently in the Asmodean Knot.
I think the play is awesome! My only complaint is that they need some foot notes as it took reading about it here on the message boards and three readings on my part to really understand the characters and convey that to the group. I think a quick summary of characters, even as a web enhancement, could have fixed this.
For myself, the Cornucopia was difficult. I found it quite tough to introduce six new NPCs that the party then had to interrogate. I think that's because I didn't know how to introduce them all, and describe the feast, and then run them to the point of having revealing conversations with them. Perhaps if these had been NPCs that had been introduced earlier, it would have been easier for me. I think my troubles are because I'm an introvert and so not sure how to do all of that. I think it went well, or at least well enough, but it could have gone better.
(Too late I found out with enough prep time my wife, and maybe her friend, would have helped me with this by playing a few of the NPCs. I am really going to keep that in mind for anything else like this!)
However, I was impressed with the xp for role playing, both the play and the party. I'm also happy to use flip maps when I can and while I know they can't do specific ones, more suggestions on a flip map that would work would have been cool. (I think they did suggest one for the sewers but am not sure on it.)
Overall, we are enjoying it and I'm trying to play it as close as I can to how it's written. I was hoping it would last for the year but now I don't see that happening as we seem to be getting through a module every five weeks or so.
I will get a bit more detailed once we have finished this module.
Ouch in that I'm about to start SixFold Trial and I'm looking forward to it. However, I really wonder if the characters would do it, with two of them being nobles? And two of them being lawful? I will probably present it to them as written and see what they want to do. (I know two players are excited for the play, one is interested and one isn't thrilled so I will see how that plays out as well.)
As others have said, and myself, I think the ideas are really good. I like the idea of the characters, ending around thirteenth level and freeing Westcrown. That can set up the DM's own follow up for something else in the country, in some way.
I agree that expectations have to be managed. Three or four of the modules just to get rid of the night monsters? I'm reasonably certain that my players will have lost the reason why they are doing the fourth long dungeon crawl.
We have now finished the first module. I would rate it at two and a half stars. I'm having a tough time pushing that up or down as it really seems to fit at two and a half.
While it had some good ideas and does set up some things, I think the execution was off.
Bad:
I think expectations need to be better managed about the scope of the adventure, as others have mentioned. The adventure is set in Westcrown for most of the adventure and does not deal with the country as a whole, for example.
I think that the Children of Westcorwn leaders could have been written much better in that I think it should have accounted for the type of group the players create. If the group is lawful, they should be pulled into it via Arael, and if Chaotic, then use Janiven as written. Or at least give the DM the choice, with options on either side. As written, they are rebels but Lawful characters shouldn't want that.
I think the whole adventure in the sewers needs to be redone. Perhaps instead of the sewers, they should have given a page or two to the ideas on Page 33, More Heroics, instead of the sewers. A Lawful group shouldn't find themselves running from the law!
I did not catch that the Rego Cedar was walled off from the rest of the town. That makes no sense to me. Why was that not taken back years ago? I think the map, though, is where this really needs to be shown better.
Westcrown needs a sourcebook. It should include the relationships between the houses and how they are done and how they work. I also want more explanation of what the minor houses do for the major houses. Was this a merger of like interests? A hostile takeover? By marriage? Further, how many layers does the city have underneath it? This is a town that was settled millenia ago! What kind of magic did Taldar use when building it? What does the academy do? Why do the sewers have few ways into them? Is no maintenance required? If not, why not? There are too many questions left unanswered about the backdrop of the adventure.
The motivation for the Hellkinghts as bad guys is completely lacking. They are the bad guys because . . . the adventure needs bad guys. I think this could be left as a nice red herring where it comes out that the leader of the group of Hellknights pursuing them was also a Council member, or a Council lackey. The Rundottari could have easily filled this role with little changes.
I think the rescue of Arael would have been better if the Bastards of Erebus had been the ones to capture him. It would have tied into the adventure better and left the Hellknights to be neutral at this point.
Good:
I like the setup a lot. I like a city adventure that has the options for politics or dungeon crawling.
What I ended up doing:
Characters:
LN Fighter 3 (wants to be a Hellknight, is a noble in a minor house but are were exiled from Egorian to Westcrown in the past five years to the family's holdings here.)
LN Inquisitor 3 (follower of Iomadae, staying at a church. I still have other gods worshiped in Westcrown but a family or person can't get ahead in politics without worshiping Asmodeus)
NG Summoner 3 (also a noble and a member of a major family house, Oberigo.)
Rogue/Socerer 1/2 (The rogue level was more for background as he now resides in the academy)
I ended up making the following changes, some of which I have said before but I'm putting it all in once place, as I ran this module:
I introduced the tiefling gang sooner for some foreshadowing.
I used Mad God's Key from Dungeon as the opening adventure. I had the key be a tool of the demon Shax and had a cult that wanted to unlock a ritual book to help them bring their master into the city. While the PCs did stop this, I am tempted to see what I can do for extra adventures about them (legally) hunting down demonic cults that are trying to be formed.
I had Arael preaching to people around town, especially the poor and residents of (my non ruined) Rego Cedar. I had him and Janiven get along but both want to bring about change in very different ways and I have played that up. (My thought is to have Janiven potentially break off to her own like minded group at some point.) They both want change but do argue about how to do it, due to alignment.
In having Arael around, I had the group go into an old family crypt (a family that no longer exists due to the civil war, so it was legal for them to do this) and made up a dungeon with Dark Stalkers and Dark Creepers with demonic images and possibilities. Arael and Janiven both went with, as did a few Children of Westcrown, and were very helpful in the adventure.
I used the flip mats for the fights with the Bastards. My group wanted to investigate the robberies and stop them, so I used a city streets flip map and set up three different targets. The group had to position themselves and those Children of Westcrwon that came along to help in various places. I had the Bastard's leaders have amulets that gave them protection from the creatures of night, such that we did have one fight after dusk. I then had a creature like the Shadowgarm from the bestiary, although a bit more powerful, be pulled toward the fighting. My point was to show how powerful and tough the creatures of the night were and I think I succeeded in that.
I then used the Theives' Guild flip mat for the base of the Bastards, including a tavern. The group defeated the few that fled to here and I had them find the deed to it as well, so they got a tavern out of it. However, that's because, at the moment, all of them are living separately and I'm hoping this will pull them together into one location. I will see how well that works.
I'm looking forward to the Sixfold Trial and will see how it plays with my group! More as it happens.
Thanks for reading. As usual, comments and questions are welcome!
We gamed again and again I'm amazed at how much of the first module I'm not using, at least in terms of plot. I'm still trying to introduce the elements needed for the module and am closer. I did manage to introduce Thesing, so that was good. I'm still hoping to introduce a few more nobles, in name only not in person, so that the names are known for later reveals. I still have a bit to do with that.
I think I'm still two or three sessions before we will be done with the first module. I'm going to try and run the Bastards part as written if I can. Once that is done I shouldn't need to have them wait that long before we go to the next module.
I do have two characters who are nobles, so I'm able to introduce some of those elements into the story now. That's working out mostly well.
I'm using a lot of other PF books to bring in information. I ended up introducing a demon worshiping group and I think that contrasts well with the devils of the country. It also makes it legal to root them out for the lawful characters. To that end, I'm using the books of the Damned for the names and information in there. I'm also checking out Chronicles of the Righteous in case I want to introduce anything from there. Not sure if that will happen yet.
I have updated the wiki with plot details of the past sessions if anyone is interested. It is more notes style from a player, so combat end up getting a lot of play by play notes.
