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Seriously Mike, you need to rethink round 2 a bit, and tone it down.
You haven't even had a round 2 for half a week.
I may just get rid of it if there's going to be a lot of complaining, because there little point of "Nova(x2)" full-attack comparisons once you already have the (Nova) score from Round 1. The prep round's monster attack was to permit AoOs, which are by definition distinct from full-attacks, and thereby explore a different aspect of one's build. That's what I am interested in: different aspects. Round 2's was to see you can do anything in a situation in which 98% of characters can't. -- I don't expect you to be able to do much. You could swing one last time, you companion suicides in to save you, and that's it. When you go down the well, bad things eat you.
I would suggest just having the monster dim door in with dimensional assault. If it starts next to you you can't charge it, so no pounce or pummeling charge. Or any mounted charges for that matter. Should fix the two turns worth of damage builds.
Then you wouldn't get AoOs either, which is a mechanic I explicitly want to see in action, and I'd had clever types come in with Counterspell and claim the DimDoor failed.
Easy button: Your charge-lane is blocked.
(E.g., enemy wizard plopped down a Wall for that very reason.)
== == == ==
"Journey with us once more into the land of module-play, where post-retirement mayhem awaits!"
* Attributes: 20pt-buy pre-racial. You have three more level bumps by 12th. Build must be PFS legal.
* Build: it would be nice to see all levels in your build (with order feats taken in, class variants chosen, final HP and save totals, etc), but it is not required.
* Equipment: you have 110,000gp to spend, no more than a third of it in one object.
* Prep Round:
- You are not surprised and have one full round to prepare.
- Your allies are "selfish"; no one assists you.
- You may have one preexisting intermediate-duration buff (1min/lvl up to half-hour) and one long-term (10min/lvl or greater) buff already in-effect prior to the prep round.
- You do not see the enemy during the prep round and do not know from what direction they will be arriving; abilities or spells that require an opponent-in-sight will therefore not work unless they can be deployed as or in conjunction with readied-actions.
* Monster Turn: a large opponent with 10' reach moves up to 10' away on its turn and strikes you for damage, hitting AC35. It is AC 30, Touch 15, Flat 23. If you have buffs, items or abilities which generate one or more AoOs in this scenario, take them. You do not have a clear charge lane.
* Your Turn: Take your attacks. You are at the edge of the opponent's reach, and it threatens. Any check you make against it is versus opposed 35 (skills, CMD, resistance, whatever). There is no difficult terrain or nearby cover.
* Darkness Descends: It's horrible, I tell you; none of your AoOs went off.
* Swan Song: A monster is sitting on top of you, and you feel its jaws beginning to crush the life from you. Armor creaks and pops as serrated teeth ratchet and rend. Barely conscious, you are dimly aware that you still hold your weapon.
-- You are prone, pinned, shaken, sickened, staggered, and at 0hp. (If you had any spells or supernatural abilities which would have prevented this, they have been debuffed. Other spells, such as Haste, remain active.) This monster also hits AC35, and possesses See Invisible, Improved Grab and Fast Swallow.
-- If you have a companion that is less than fully 12th level, it is no longer alive at this point. If it remains alive, it is within its move of you, but not within a 5' of full-attacking the monster.
Do the best you can.
-- That's it. Dead or alive, tally up. If your character has "tricks" (sneak-attack, favored-enemy, favored terrain, trips on AoOs, has Smite, Bane enhancements, etc), compute damage twice: once for nothing-is-applicable and once for opponent-eats-everything-ya-got. If you think you can do it, do it.
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Damage/round formula: h(d+s)+tf(cd+cb+r)
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This doesn't exceed .95 (unless you autohit for whatever reason) and never goes below .05.
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. "s" stands for sneak attack, but this also includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, precision damage, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical Focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
Remember to subtract one from your crit multiplier, or your damage will be over-done in the formula!
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.
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Character construction:
What is allowed in PFS? A quick way to determine if a feature is permitted is to toss its name plus "nethys" into a search-engine, whereupon its listing at the Archives of Nethys will be found, and if the Pathfinder Society's round Glyph of the Open Road logo is displayed, the feature is very probably legal. For example, the feat Two-Weapon Fighting is PFS-legal. There are corner-cases, however, and these may have a red circle around the logo; this means that the campaign has issued a ruling which modifies unrestricted access. If the feature you found at Nethys doesn't have the logo, it's probably not PFS-legal.
That said, new material is introduced continuously and previously-legal old material is occasionally proscribed, and not even the indefatigable stalwarts helming Nethys can keep up. So here's the follow-up trick: Nethys will provide the name of the book or books in which the feature has appeared. Which that knowledge, head over to Pathfinder Society's Additional Resources page and scan down for that book. If your feature (or, more often, its umbrella category) is listed as legal, you're good to go.
Another great site aiding in character-generation is d20pfsrd. It does not indicate PFS-legality (note that all non-Paizo material is unapproved), but is very easy to navigate and quickly explore options.
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Winner's Circle
From time to time, a build tactic will be recognized as overwhelmingly strong and dominating competition. Said tactic will then be "given the gold" and retired. New contestants may NOT use retired tactics (we already they're very powerful).
Current winners:
* Polymorth into multiattack monster. (You may still employ Enlarge Person, mutagens, and similar effects which don't significantly alter your form.)
== == == ==
* Final thread rule: We're here to have fun kickin' monster butt! Please keep the signal-to-noise ratio positive. No critiquing until you've posted a build (error-correcting permitted).
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From the build I presented earlier, she is well-under her spending limit, so Boots of teleportation and get away, then hang back and shoot it from afar, or Grapple to escape, slip into a Portable Hole, then heal up and roll better in round 3?
There is no Round 3. If you run away, you do less overall damage.
-- The monster looks very badly hurt, and everyone else in the party is down....
(That's "flavor", not a contest rule.)
The solutions I can think of to the pin are freedom of movement (spell or item) so you can't be grappled/pinned, or contingency (which comes in several flavours from talismanic implement thru contingent action & contingent scroll up to the classic contingency), or having an animal companion free you via claw wrench or something.
Edit: or a swift action teleport. The teleportation subschool 1st level power, or perhaps a metamagic rod of quicken spell + dimension door, or something like that.
I'm still not clear why only an animal companion and not any tougher pet can appear in round 2. It makes no sense to me.
You still haven't posted the monster's save, yet you say that squishies are welcome.
We really need to either know what its saves or it needs one average save to target.
also, if staggered can you take a swift?
because if so a wiz/sorc/arcanist could dim door away and quicken infernal healing.
I have to say I don't really get the point of round two. It seems to be some desperate attempt into railroading people into making one more standard action attack to boost their damage. But as most DMs probably know, if you back players into a wall to try and make them do something, their instinct is almost never to do that thing, but rather to escape the scenario entirely.
for the two builds I posted the things I left out
Fagan (the swashtigator)
Hit points: 95
AC: 38
Fort:11 Will:15 Ref:22
Methuselah (the phantom blade)
Hit points: 93
AC: 33
Fort:14 Will:16 Ref:10
If they count as in combat then an inquisitor could start the prep round with judgement + Divine power then swift for bane on the following round.
And 12 is the level they get greater bane, pretty sure that would produce some nice numbers.
Inquisitors also get access to Domains, and can use either Travel to teleport out or Liberation to automatically free themselves in the second scenario.
A Bard(/Skald) could also utilize Symphony of the Elysian Heart in order to escape grapples, so they also have a chance in the second scenario.
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I think it really begs the question, what does "(If you had any spells or supernatural abilities which would have prevented this, they have been debuffed" entail. Does this happen before the debuffs are applied, and does something that only trigger after the debuff happens still work, like the liberation domain ability, or talismans. Also, are we staggered because we are disabled, or is the staggered condition applied regardless of current HP?
Does that Dispel contingencies?
Cause contingency magic jar would be funny.
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Also, are we staggered because we are disabled, or is the staggered condition applied regardless of current HP?
The conditions don't have memory. You are staggered, shaken, sickened, prone, and pinned with 0 HP at the beginning of Round 2.
I know you're very good at this Deighton, and you'll find something amongst that vast array of splatbooks out there. (I fully expect you to 'ace' this and take home another gold.)
= = =
You still haven't posted the monster's save, yet you say that squishies are welcome."...Any check you make against it is versus opposed 35 (skills, CMD, resistance, whatever)..."
also, if staggered can you take a swift?By the book, whatever it permits for that condition.
a wiz/sorc/arcanist could dim door away and quicken infernal healing. I have to say I don't really get the point of round two. It seems to be some desperate attempt into railroading people into making one more standard action attack to boost their damage.
While obviously a PC would prefer to flee in such a situation if they were able, the point of Round 2 is to see how much any extra damage you can dish out while -10 to melee attack rolls. If you don't attack, the answer is zero.
This is, after all, a DPR challenge.
If you back players into a wall to try and make them do something, their instinct is almost never to do that thing, but rather to escape the scenario entirely.
Additional monsters will continue pouring through the breach to the Worldwound, whereas jamming the hole with its corpse might buy a round or two....
Put yourself in a paladin frame of mind: If you flee, the monsters will ravage your wounded allies, and your deity will know you were a coward.
Any check you make against it is versus opposed 35 (skills, CMD, resistance, whatever)..."
the monster's save roll is 35?
that is ridiculous.it has the AC of a CR15, its CMD matches the mean average for CR12 and the saves (assuming thats its save when it rolls a ten) of a CR25. If thats it's save pre roll then its saves are above the CR30 guidelines.
how is that in anyway standard, fair or reasonable?
By the book, whatever it permits for that condition.
so yeah.
While obviously a PC would prefer to flee in such a situation if they were able, the point of Round 2 is to see how much any extra damage you can dish out while -10 to melee attack rolls. If you don't attack, the answer is zero.
This is, after all, a DPR challenge.
If that is what you want people to do say that. Don't try and railroad people into it because reading that scenario the typical reaction is not "oh great one more attack at minus ten" its. "Well shit I'm dead GG" or "I know how I can get out of this".
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"Excuse me, 'scuse me...." (A buff warrior elbows past the complaining wizard, eager to test his mettle.)
half-orc: Toothy
alignment: CN, deity: Rovagug
Traits: Fate’s Favored, Bestial Wrath (religion)
STR+17 (all bumps)
DEX:15
CON:14 (half-orc 15,15,14,14,10,07 20pt array)
INT:10
WIS:14
CHA-07
00 saves FT RF WI
00 base: 02 03 02
01 barb1 04 03 02 [Drunken Brute][Savage Technologist], EWP:Falcata
02 cava1 06 03 02 [gendarme:feat:Power Attack]
03 warp1 08 03 04 [Weather,War][Weapon Focus:Falcata], TWF
04 fight1 10 03 04 [feat:Double Slice]
05 barb2 11 03 04 [rage power:Beast Totem(lesser)], Reckless Rage
06 fight2 12 03 04 [feat retrained to Two-Weapon Rend at 12th]
07 fight3 12 04 05 [WT:falcata], AWT:Effortless Dual-Wielding
08 braw1 14 04 05 [Mutagenic Mauler]
09 fight4 15 04 05 [feat:ITWF], Weapon Specialization
10 fight5 16 05 05 [Reliable Strike]
11 fight6 16 05 05 [***], Extra Rage Power [Reckless Abandon+1]
12 fight7 17 06 06 [WT+2], retrain [***:Greater Two Weapon Fighting]
36,000 +1/Furious/Keen falcatas (pair)
16,000 Belt of Giant Strength +4
15,000 Gloves of Dueling
8,000 +1/Fortuitous bardiche
8,000 Vambraces of the Tactician
8,000 Champion’s Banner
8,000 cracked pale green prisms: (att+1) and (dmg+1)
4,000 Amulet of Mighty Fists (Furious)
2,700 Animal Mask
1,200 + 10 prestige points (retrain two feats at 12th level)
750 potion of Heroism
700 scroll of Divine Power
300 MW small falcata
50 potion of Enlarge Person
0.01 Coconut oil to better define abs and obliques — we are freakin' kut
======
108,600…
Ongoing: Mutagen, Heroism. Carrying a potion and scroll.
Prep round: move: drink held potion of Enlarge Person, standard: cast Divine Power scroll, swift: activate Animal Mask (boar), quickdraw bardiche (20’ reach), rage(STR+4,DEX+4)
* Monster move: we get one AoO plus a follow-up AoO if first hits:
Attack bonus (bardiche): 11(BAB) +12(STR20+4[rage]+4[muta]+4[belt]+2[size]=34) +1(enh) +4(luck) +2(morale) +1(ioun) +1(reckless) —1(size) -4(PA) = +28 (AoO#1: 95%; Fortuitous recursive AoO: 90.25%)
Damage (+1/fortuitous bardiche, enlarged): 2d8 +18(2hSTR) +1(enh) +4(luck) +12(1.5x[PA+RecklessRage]) +1(ioun) = 45
[.95x45=A + crit%(.1)(A)] = B, first AoO = 47.025
… +.95x(B), Fortuitous AoO = 44.67375
= 91.69875
* Fight round: drop bardiche, swift-Challenge, 5’ (if necessary), declare full-attack with TWF penalties: two claws, bite, gore, then quickdraw falcatas and GTWF (+Divine Power extra) w/Effortless Dual-Wielding. Eleven attacks total, plus Two Weapon Rend if *any* two the eleven hit.
Attack bonus (enlarged claws x2, bite, gore): 11(BAB) +12(STR) +2(AoMF) +4(luck) +2(morale) +1(ioun) +1(reckless) —1(size) -2(TWF) -5(secondary attacks) -0(not Power Attacking yet) = +26
Damage (natural attacks): +12(STR) +7(challenge), +2(AoMF) +4(luck) +1(ioun) = 26 (so: 2x claws d8+26=30.5, bite and gore both d6+26=29.5)
[.85x30.5=A + crit%(.05)(A)] = 27.22125 x2
[.85x29.5=A + crit%(.05)(A)] = 26.32875 x2
= 107.115
Attack bonus (Power Attack with falcata x7): 11(BAB) +12(STR) +4(luck) +2(moral) +3(enh) +5(WF+WT) +1(abandon) +1(ioun) —1(size) -4(PA) -2(TWF) = +35
…+35/+35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25
Damage (+1/furious/keen falcata, enlarged): 2d6 +12(STR) +7(challenge) +3(enh) +4(luck) +8(PA+RecklessRage) +6(WT+WS) +1(ioun) = 48
[.95x48=46.5 + crit%(.2)(46.5x2)] = 64.76 x5
[.8x48=38.4 + crit%(.2)([.9x48]x2)] = 55.68 x2
+Two Weapon Rend (d10+1.5xSTR = 23), chance of occurring within an infinitesimal of 100%.
= 458.16
* Swan song: We howl in frustration and fury, and swing one last time: 11(BAB) +12(STR) +4(luck) +2(moral) +3(enh) +5(WF+WT) +1(abandon) +1(ioun) —1(size) -10(prone/grappled/shaken/sickened) = +28
Damage (+1/furious/keen falcata, enlarged): 2d6 +12(STR) +7(challenge) +3(enh) +4(luck) +6(WT+WS) +1(ioun) = 40
[.95x40=38 + crit%(.2)(38x2)] = 53.2
Reliable Strike: …hairy balls of the gods is this hard to compute, because it only triggers on misses, and applies to both main rolls as well as threat-confirmation rolls. But only once per day. Over the course of six 95% and two 80% falcata attackes, we accumulate a 52.954% chance of at least one miss (and therefore gaining a reroll). In the 47.0459% chance that we do not miss with any of those attacks, there are eight potential threats that could miss and therefore merit a reroll; miss chance of threats is 40.457557%. Preliminary math: 52.954% (mains) + (.2)(40.457557) = 08.09151137% (threats) of a reroll somewhere. 7 attacks are worth 48pts, 1 worth 40, and any crits respectively double, with there again being chances to miss on the rerolls. <snip even more boring crap> Anyway, I got an average of 28.5 extra from this.
Grand total:
… 91.69875
… 107.115
… 458.16
… 53.2
… 28.5
= 738.67375
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To add on to what pad300 is asking:
8)Did you mean to take Quick Draw as the fighter bonus feat at level 11, cause it's missing from the build right now?
9)How is your luck bonus to attack and damage at +4? A caster level 7 scroll should only be a +2 bonus.
10)How are you attacking while pinned?
11)How are you getting full strength to damage with secondary natural attacks?
12)How are you getting full power attack damage with off hand attacks?
The following is less questions, more just plains statements. You can't use the same limb for a weapon attack as a natural attack in the same full attack action, even with quick draw. You also have to take attacks in order from highest BAB to lowest which means you have to start with your manufactured weapon attacks if you're combining manufactured and natural weapons, because the natural weapon attacks are made at BAB -5. Also, with enlarge person you only have 17 dexterity, which means that even if you could take Greater Two Weapon Fighting, you can't actually use it.
All in all, I'm seeing 380 damage with this build, without any calculations for reliable strike. You do have an extra feat, and a couple magic items that don't work as intended though, so damage could be brought up a bit.
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Yes. The penalty lasts until the beginning of your next turn. (TWF you must declare in advance of your first attack in a full-attack.)Ok, questions:
1) Can you elect to only have power attack turn on in the middle of your full attack routine? (ie when you switch from natural weapons to falcata's)
2) Where is your chance of failing to cast the scroll of Divine power? It's a CL 7 scroll, and you are a 1st level caster - I figure this would make you fail 30% of the time.Yeah...that'll need to be fixed. (At one point the build included Magical Knack, more levels of Warpriest, and a lower-level scroll being cast.)
3) How do you have a +1 to damage on a cracked pale green prism?I bought both types.
4) I assume that's a weapon master fighter, and that's how you are getting wpn training at 3ed.Yup.
5) Shouldn't there be a -5 to hit penalty for your Fortuitous 2nd AoO?If that's the rule, I forgot it. I also forgot my racial bump, and should have been calculating for a strength of 22 for +1/+1 att/dmg throughout, and bit more dmg w/polearm. Myeh.
6) Can you actually take ITWF and GTWF? You only qualify for them during your rage. I would have thought a temporary bonus like that wouldn't qualify you to take the feat. (Unlike say, owning a belt of dex +4 for a permanent bonus; then you could practice and learn the feat)Once upon a time (2012), there was lots of talk about that, but it ran out of gas when commentators starting pointing out all the druids with Weapon Focus (Claw) and wizards with Skill Focus (Fly) even though neither have requisite gimmicks running 24hr/day. More recently it's been determined that brawlers can take Two-Weapon Feint even though it triggers only during their flurries, and bloodline sorcerers and other feral types taking Improved Natural Attack.
7) What is your Champion's Banner mounted on and how are you carrying it?
Like this. The Champion's Banner does not require a slot or a weapon haft (although it may be placed in or on either).
Well, now where did that go...To add on to what pad300 is asking:
8)Did you mean to take Quick Draw as the fighter bonus feat at level 11, cause it's missing from the build right now?
9)How is your luck bonus to attack and damage at +4? A caster level 7 scroll should only be a +2 bonus.Have I ever told you how much I hate scrolls? Seriously: *F#@k* scrolls.
10)How are you attacking while pinned?With the one-handed weapon still in my hand, at -10. (It says the monster has Fast Swallow; it doesn't say that you are swallowed. Being pinned does not otherwise prevent you from attacking from a one-handed weapon. -- You need a light weapon when swallowed.)
11)How are you getting full strength to damage with secondary natural attacks?Have I ever told how much I hate...
12)How are you getting full power attack damage with off hand attacks?Huh. <check><whaddya know> Double Slice doesn't give ya that....
The following is less questions, more just plains statements. You can't use the same limb for a weapon attack as a natural attack in the same full attack action, even with quick draw.Can you cite that in RAW?
You also have to take attacks in order from highest BAB to lowest which means you have to start with your manufactured weapon attacks if you're combining manufactured and natural weapons, because the natural weapon attacks are made at BAB -5.Again, can you cite that in RAW?
Also, with enlarge person you only have 17 dexterity, which means that even if you could take Greater Two Weapon Fighting, you can't actually use it.It dimly comes back to be now: There used to be a Deep Red Sphere, and two of the level bumps were into DEX, not all into STR.
All in all, I'm seeing 380 damage with this build, without any calculations for reliable strike. You do have an extra feat, and a couple magic items that don't work as intended though, so damage could be brought up a bit.
Unfortunately there are no spare feats (the build as-is does not gain one with fighter7 at 12th, but at that time the PFS PC spends cash and prestige to retrain two lower feats to others with BAB11 prerequisites.
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With the one-handed weapon still in my hand, at -10. (It says the monster has Fast Swallow; it doesn't say that you are swallowed. Being pinned does not otherwise prevent you from attacking from a one-handed weapon. -- You need a light weapon when swallowed.)
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
An attack is neither a purely mental or verbal action, nor a combat maneuver or escape artist check. Grapple allows you to make a one handed attack, but pinned only allows you these actions.
Can you cite that in RAW?
Yes, I can.
Natural Attacks:...You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword.
Again, can you cite that in RAW?
Yes, I can.
Full Attack...If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
"Excuse me, 'scuse me...." (A buff warrior elbows past the complaining wizard, eager to test his mettle.)
Pretty if it had 48AC and saves of a 16 (What they should be to be inline with the monster's current AC) the martial's would be complaining.
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Ok, if you have dropped into actual tactical time (counting rounds, not minutes), and you have established there is no surprise round, does that mean the initiative roll has happened. In particular, can you go into style stance(s) in the prep round?Has anyone got a reply for this question?
Well, Mike has both stated that you're not in combat, so can't activate a style feat, but then also has a build taking attacks of opportunity without uncanny dodge or combat reflexes, which you can't do without acting in combat first, so having combat start on the monsters turn doesn't make sense either.
Nothing makes sense anymore ;-;
There's also the combat style master feat tax if for some reason a coherent reason for those does emerge.
I have a snake style/jabbing style dex based monk build that uses jabbing style, flying kicks into the engagement, full attacks and then swaps to snake style and theoretically gets another full attack in attacks of opportunity on the following round.
But by level twelve you can't get snake strike and jabbing master and since the opponent only makes one attack you're better off just going full jabbing style and strength focused since the main benefit of going heavy into dex is having a high AC to facilitate snake strike.
I presume no-one's bothered to do it because whilst I'm pretty sure jabbing master + hammer the gap would produce some great numbers on an unchained monk, working out the actual average probably requires an algorithm.
Seize the moment between a couple of kukri-wielders has a similar algorithmic problem.
Ooooo never seen Seize the moment, fun little feat.
suprised to see no-one has done the whole hunter pack flanking out flank combowombo thing people do.
I believe it has been referred to as a blender by some.
that also would probably need an algorithm.
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I presume no-one's bothered to do it because whilst I'm pretty sure jabbing master + hammer the gap would produce some great numbers on an unchained monk, working out the actual average probably requires an algorithm.
That's exactly why it's not on almost every one of my builds. There's a 57% chance to have every attack hit on the 11 attack two weapon fighter/natural attack build I made, and it would more likely than not add 55 damage to the single turn total in actual play.
With the "blocked charging lane" specified by the latest iteration of the challenge, I suspect that the flying kick thing won't work so well..I have a snake style/jabbing style dex based monk build that uses jabbing style, flying kicks into the engagement, full attacks and then swaps to snake style and theoretically gets another full attack in attacks of opportunity on the following round.
But by level twelve you can't get snake strike and jabbing master and since the opponent only makes one attack you're better off just going full jabbing style and strength focused since the main benefit of going heavy into dex is having a high AC to facilitate snake strike.
I presume no-one's bothered to do it because whilst I'm pretty sure jabbing master + hammer the gap would produce some great numbers on an unchained monk, working out the actual average probably requires an algorithm.
In this it's irrelevant because things come to you, in fact it means you can use Elbow smash.
Flying kick was just what it would have theoretically used as its modus operandi had it ever been in play.
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Well, Mike has both stated that you're not in combat, so can't activate a style feat, but then also has a build taking attacks of opportunity without uncanny dodge or combat reflexes, which you can't do without acting in combat first, so having combat start on the monsters turn doesn't make sense either.
The stated "given" of the DPR Challenge is that you are not surprised, and it has always been that way.
-- I have to keep reminding people that this is not a Totally Accurate Battle Simulator; it is an exploration of powerful build construction and technique, and occasionally a new situation will be added (e.g., Round 2 recently) to tease out new ideas, while proven unbeatable mechanics are "given the gold" and retired.
Ok, I'm just going to start assuming that combat started when the prep round started...
You do not see an opponent during your turn in the prep round. They go first during the fight...but you're not surprised. Why? Who cares. It's the "given". Enjoy the fact that you are not surprised. Your character would.
____________
Errata: In Round 2, the monster was listed as having "Improved Grab", which is what it was called in 3rd edition. The Pathfinder universal monster ability which most closely matches it is "Attach", so we'll go with that.
You do not see an opponent during your turn in the prep round. They go first during the fight...but you're not surprised. Why? Who cares. It's the "given". Enjoy the fact that you are not surprised. Your character would.
Bold: literally every person actively posting in your thread.
Enjoy the fact we are not surprised because our characters would? Why?
This isn't a game, we can't win or lose our characters, there are no stakes. It's an excersize in comparing builds to see which ones have the strongest DPR mechanics.
If we started surprised that would just be a different frame work for comparison we lose absolutely nothing, personally we just wouldn't be able to rely on the same buffs we can currently. It would be a completely different test.
As if is the railroads you've put people on a prohibiting them from using various class features and builds, not for balance reasons but seemingly simply because you don't want the first round to count as combat for absolutely no clear reason at all.
For example any defensive combat styles are completely nullified, and using any style at all prohibits any builds that want their swift action for anything else.
Inquisitors can't stack bane and judgement together
And then on top of all that you've decided that casters have to contend with something more than double their CR (25-30) whilst martials are dealing with the defences of a CR15, seemingly for no reason other than the fact you can't be bothered to post a more balanced range. Even though Deighton has already told you what saves would be to match its AC.
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Is there any reason why you can't just post the average monster statistics for a CR 12 monster, and tell people to go off of that?
Here, I'll post the link to the table:
Pathfinder Beastiary Statistics By CR
There you go. Now the challenge is actually relevant to what players of this level are likely to face, both martials and casters. And if you want to make things more of a challenge, just increase the CR of the monster. CR 15 isn't too unreasonable. And the stats are readily available.
Your way of just giving it 35 to everything just over-complicates matters and skews the results in favor of certain classes and builds.
I would also change the scenarios, by the way.
The first scenario should be that the PC has time to buff because they (or someone in their team) scouted ahead. They know there's a monster out there, and effectively, combat has already begun. Basically, they get one surprise round.
Second scenario would be, they open up a door and walk into a monster. Combat immediately starts, no surprise round.
Third scenario, the PC is surprised/ambushed. Monster gets a surprise round. PC must survive the attack, then counterattack.
Monster starts 30 feet away in all cases.
This way, you get scenarios that are actually relevant to how the game is played.
Niche scenarios where you start off pinned and debuffed out of the wazoo are less actual scenarios and more checkboxes. Does your character have a way to automatically escape a pin? No? They die. Yes? They live. That's about all there is to it.
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...Bold: literally every person actively posting in your thread.While there was a long hiatus, this thread is over six years old. No one was complaining about the basic format until a few days ago.
This isn't a game, we can't win or lose our characters, there are no stakes. It's an excersize in comparing builds to see which ones have the strongest DPR mechanics."DPR challenge" is right in the thread title.
For example any defensive combat styles are completely nullified, and using any style at all prohibits any builds that want their swift action for anything else. Inquisitors can't stack bane and judgement together
The theme (unchanged in six years) of this challenge is to not be one of those "ideal" scenarios where the characters enjoy every gimmick activated all at once in order to supernova. There are other DPR threads that do that, and they're more unrealistic than this one.
The present scenario grants ability to ready an action during the prep round for when the opponents come into view. (The ability to charge is the only thing precluded at that point, because permitting such would necessarily mean that builds containing Rhino Charge and pounce/pummel always "win" by snagging an additional full/multi-attack.)
And then on top of all that you've decided that casters have to contend with something more than double their CR (25-30) whilst martials are dealing with the defences of a CR15, seemingly for no reason other than the fact you can't be bothered to post a more balanced range. Even though Deighton has already told you what saves would be to match its AC.
Round 2's opponent is deliberately unfair. Round 2 exists just to see what your same build that crushed Round 1 can do, if anything, in a virtual worst-case scenario.
(It is assumed that you can easily beat a "fair" monster, which is why I am not "bothering" with that.)
While there was a long hiatus, this thread is over six years old. No one was complaining about the basic format until a few days ago.
Hence I said actively.
The theme (unchanged in six years) of this challenge is to not be one of those "ideal" scenarios where the characters enjoy every gimmick activated all at once in order to supernova. There are other DPR threads that do that, and they're more unrealistic than this one.
You keep saying unchanged in six years as if it's a good thing when the thread went inactive over 5 years ago.
The problem is that a lot of builds can have all their stuff activated, your scenario doesn't prohibit that for most classes. Either you're refusing to see the problem or your not really paying attention.
The problem is some class features and feats require you to be in combat to to activate hence some classes and combat styles are arbitrarily weakened.
Round 2's opponent is deliberately unfair. Round 2 exists just to see what your same build that crushed Round 1 can do, if anything, in a virtual worst-case scenario.
This has literally nothing to do with the comment you quoted.
How did 'the monsters saves are 10-15 CR above it'd AC' translate to 'round 2 is too challenging'. I don't even understand the confusion.
Swan song round pretty much needs an animal companion or summed creature. You have it go first with improved bull rush to knock the monster off your square. You are presumably then unpinned. A paladin could do it. He has a mount with feats, and mercy upgrades, one he takes staggered for at sixth level, and others for the remaining conditions, and he also gets some hit points to get him above zero, all as a swift lay on hands. He can full-attack from prone, unless there is a piece of gear that lets him stand up as a free action without provoking. You can probably make a build with only six paladin levels that works, if you have boon companion.
I see some people using a Scabbard of Vigor. Those have been nerfed and now take up your belt slot.
Source? The latest printing of Ultimate Equipment has it as an slotless item and there is no FAQ on it.
They were belt-slot nerfed for awhile, but went spotless again last year, I think.
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Well, Mike has both stated that you're not in combat, so can't activate a style feat, but then also has a build taking attacks of opportunity without uncanny dodge or combat reflexes, which you can't do without acting in combat first, so having combat start on the monsters turn doesn't make sense either.The stated "given" of the DPR Challenge is that you are not surprised, and it has always been that way.
I'm not saying that you are surprised in the first round. What I'm saying is that regardless of whether you are surprised on not, unless you have a special ability that says otherwise, you are flat-footed, and unable to make attacks of opportunity until you have acted in combat. On top of this, readying an action is a special initiative action which can't be done out of initiative, and the only time that initiative is called for is during combat. So readying an action or taking attacks of opportunity would require the prep round to be an actual round of combat.
I have a few decent DPR ideas but haven't had the time to write them up. I will just toss out an instant kill one.
Witch 2/Slayer(stygian) 10
str:13
Dex
Con
Wis
Int 18+2human,+3lvls,+6ehnacement,+1inherent=30
Cha
1st lvl Witch hex: Evil Eye
10th lvl Slayer Advanced Talent: Assassinate DC 30 (33w/Study)
Traits:
Called
Bruising Intellect
Feats:
Focused Study Human: Skill Focus (Intimidate, Stealth)
Improved Unarmed Strike
Hex Strike (Evil Eye)
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Cornugon Smash
Dampen Presence
Slayer Talent = Wpn Focus
Items
36,000 +6 headband of Vast intelligence
27,500 +1 Tome of clear thought
18,000 +1 Cruel, Weapon of spell storing (Ill Omen)
16,000 Anaphexis robe (minus 1 round of study to assassinate)
13,000 in scrolls
ToHit: Base+11, str+1, study target+3, enhancement+1, wpn F.+1,Truestrike+20 =37
Long term buffs: Invisibility
Prep round: Cast True Strike
Attack Round:
- 5ft Step,
- Free Action. Assassination Study,
- Move Action. Study target,
- Standard Action. Attack target, only missing on two 1's rolled consecutively. 99.975% chance to hit.
- No Action Attack Rider. Power Attack for Cornugon Smash to Demoralize&Sicken (intimidate +31)-4 saves
- Swift Action. Hex Strike: Evil Eye -2 save (total -6)
- Free Action. Cast Ill Omen from Spell Storing Weapon
- No Action Attack Rider. Assassinate 33DC vs (35-6 fort save roll)=29 rolled = failure and Monster Death.
Will drop some DPR builds next week.
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First, I just want to say I like the witch/slayer build, but I do see a couple of problems. First is the Anaphexis robe working with the assassin's Death Attack class feature to reduce the number of rounds necessary from 3 to 2. The slayer ability is a different ability. Though similar in function, the robes reduction in number of rounds wouldn't apply.
I'm also getting a lower save DC, at 10 + 1/2 level + int it should be 30 + 5 + 10 (+3 from studied target) for a total of 28. That's normally still really good, but at 35, this monsters saves are ridiculous, godly even.
There's also a problem with the debuff stacking. You're using a cruel spell storing weapon to apply debuffs, but also using hex strike which only works on unarmed strikes. You're also applying cruel's sickened debuff even though the monster wasn't shaken when you attacked it. Also, I believe hex strike still provides a save, as long as the hex used normally allows a save.
Apologies for the mistakes. Didn't have a lot of time this morning and was writing fast. Why I did the DC build rather than the DPR.
You are correct about the dc. The monster rolls a 35 to save so I need 2 more to kill it. Let me see what I can do tomorrow.
The weapon that I was using was going to be a staff and include Ascetic Style to apply all the debuffs. Noticed that Ascetic style was not PFS legal but forgot to make the adjustment.
The witch hex used is Evil Eye so even on a failed roll the target is affected for 1 round.
The Anaphexis robes say:
"Once per day, a wearer with the death attack class ability can reduce the number of rounds required to study a target for a death attack by 1."
It is a time reduction to "death attacks" not Assassin class so should work.
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Yeah, I probably didn't need to mention the evil eye thing since you don't actually plan for any actions in the second round. Similarly the penalty from power attack is missing, but you're still at 95% chance to hit with the one planned attack, regardless.
The Anaphexis Robes do specify that it works with the death attack class ability. Many classes have similar abilities, but only the Assassin has the Death Attack ability.
Weapon should have been changed to an Amulet of Might fists: Cruel of Spell Storing. This reduces tohit by 1. Still only misses on a 1.
Furious Focus eliminates the penalty for the first attack with Power Attack each round.
You might be right about Anaphexis Robes. Not certain yet, but I will look at the other Death Attacks and see if I can find any other references. If the robe doesn't work, would swap it out for a Rod of meta(quicken). ON the prep round, swift cast True Strike and ready an action to study. When the monster attacks study as the prep round's readied action.
For the last 2DC difference, would swap a Witch lvl for 1 lvl in BloodRager. Would pick up Arcane Strike, Blooded Arcane Strike, and Riving Strike.
Would drop Dampen Presence and use Slayer Talents to get all the feats in.
While raging can Arcane/Riving strike as a non-action.
1 hit -8 save on a roll of 35 to save = 27 vs a 28 DC... Monster dead.
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I'm actually going to preface this by saying that I've gone back and looked through the combat section a couple times, and the rules aren't as clear on this as I would have thought, but most GMs I've played with tend to run things this way. That's when you're resolving one action, attack or roll, you resolve it and it's effects before resolving any other actions. Most games tend to have a rule for this, but pathfinder (unless I've somehow missed it multiple times) doesn't really give you an order of operation for how to resolve certain actions, it just mentions that free and swift actions can be taken during full actions. Most GMs I've played with would apply both Cornugon Smash and spell storing after the death attack, though I can see some allowing the free actions before it. Similarly, the cruel likely wouldn't apply, because the target wasn't shaken when you attacked. On top of that, Riving Strike only applies to spells and spell-like abilities, and Assassinate is an extraordinary ability.
Also want to make it clear I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, I actually like the build, just want to see one where it wouldn't be disallowed by GM rulings. I think you'd probably want to fit Focused Target in the build somewhere to bump the DC to 29. Still trying to think of other ways to apply debuffs, but nothing's coming to mind at the moment.
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Actually, thought of a couple a few minutes after posting, but didn't come back quick enough to edit. Taking a level of Mindchemist alchemist would get you a cognatogen to boost the DC by 2. Buying Lenses of the Predators Gaze should boost it by 1. Using a Headsman's Blade would increase the DC by 2, but doesn't work with hex strike.