The PFS DPR Olympics 12th level challenge reboot -- Squishies welcome!


Advice

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Good conversation and solid points. I have always read Free, Swift, Immediate actions and AoO as interrupting the regular flow of the round. To me, that means they can be placed anywhere in the round.

For no action riders on attacks like demoralize, sicken, etc... it would be a fair argument to say that they happen separately and concurrently. That would mean that they all act against the base save and do not interact with each other until after all have been applied. That would prevent any of the debuffs from affecting the Assassination save and it would prevent a cruel weapon from making a target sickened from the same attack.

All discussions I have seen on various forums treat the no action riders as interrupts rather than concurrent separate effects so I based the above build on that assumption.

A number of feats listed on the build could be taken with Slayer talents so the build could definitely fit more feats.

The spell storing isn't really needed in this challenge. The actual roll was given rather than just the save. The DC either wins or it doesn't so Ill Omen has no effect based on the current rules. I tossed it in because would definitely help a lot in a real build.

Yes, Headsmans Blade is a great find. If using Transformative could become a monk weapon allowing Hex strike to work with Ascetic Style (not PFS legal). However if using Lenses of the Predator, Headsmans Blade, Studied Focus,and a Cognatogen, the only debuff needed would be shaken from Cornugun Smash.

So we all agree that Slayer11/Alchemist(mindchemist)1 = Dead Monster (except those who feel shaken would happen after the assassination save)?

Thanks for the assist.

Grand Lodge

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I high DPS slayer build I like used the lens of predatory gaze, focused target, bloodstained gloves, and a level a brawler for seething hatred in addition to a level a bloodrager. This results in triple studied target damage.

I had in mostly written up for the old rules. Clocking in at ~500DPR but it got out classed before I could post and I did not have the time to rewrite it throwing in polymorph.

Thought I would throw the concept out there just so all the work is not wasted.

Liberty's Edge

Sure; let's see 'em.

Liberty's Edge

Challenge rule tweaks, additions, and extended descriptions:

* Consider initiative rolled at the beginning. For simplicity, the rounds are relabeled 1, 2, and 3. You do not see any opponent during Round 1 on your turn. (You will if you ready.)

* Round 2's 10'-away opponent is the same one that moved to attack you, unless your abilities (e.g., Awesome Blow, "assassination", etc) make that unlikely (i.e., you're no longer near that opponent), in which case at the beginning of Round 1 you're facing a second opponent identical to the first who got up next to you (triggering no AoOs, or you whiffed). Tailor your build and tactics to best exploit either option. If you think a scenario is likely, make a note of it.

* Round 3's opponent is not the same one that you fought last round. It is also size Large.

* In addition to the two pre-combat buffs, you may have...
-- one more long-term buff if 8hr or longer duration

* If you have at least eight spellcasting levels, you may have an additional long-term 8hr+ buff and an additional intermediate-duration buff.

* Because the last round is proving difficult, I'm softening it a slight tad:
-- If you have an effect or ability which does not require an action to trigger, you may evade the Staggered, Shaken, and/or Sickened conditions. This effect or ability cannot be from a spell buff ongoing at the end the previous round.
-- You remain pinned and at 0hp under the monster. While at 0hp, you have the Disabled condition. You do not have the Helpless condition.

== == == ==

"Journey with us once more into the land of module-play, where post-retirement mayhem awaits!"

* Attributes: 20pt-buy pre-racial. You have three more level bumps by 12th. Build must be PFS legal.

* Build: it would be nice to see all levels in your build (with order feats taken in, class variants chosen, final HP and save totals, etc), but it is not required.

* Equipment: you have 110,000gp to spend, no more than a third of it in one object.

* Round 1:
-- Initiative is rolled. Opponents are not in sight, and the direction they are coming from is not known. Take the round to prepare.
-- Your allies are "selfish"; no one assists you unless under your control.
-- You may have two preexisting intermediate-duration buff (1min/lvl or greater) buffs already in-effect prior to the prep round, and one long-term buff of 8hr+ duration. If you have at least eight spellcasting levels, you may have an additional long-term 8hr+ buff and an additional intermediate-duration buff.

* Monster Turn: a large opponent with 10' reach moves up to 10' away on its turn and strikes you for damage, hitting AC35. It is AC 30, Touch 18, Flat 25. If you have buffs, items or abilities which generate one or more attacks of opportunity in this scenario, take them. You do not have a clear charge lane. Any check you make against it is versus 35 (skills, CMD, saves, resistance, whatever). The monster’s attack roll is 35, and it does 35hp damage.

* Round 2: You are eligible for a full-attack. You are at the edge of the opponent's reach, and it threatens. There is no difficult terrain or nearby cover.

* Between Round 2 and 3, none of your available attacks of opportunity went off. Assume you rolled 1s, or could not take them. In any event, you did no further damage.

* Round 3: A different monster is sitting on top of you, and you feel its jaws beginning to crush the life from you. Armor creaks and pops as serrated teeth ratchet and rend. Barely conscious, you are dimly aware that you still hold your weapon.

-- You are prone, pinned, shaken, sickened, staggered, and at 0hp. If you have an effect or ability which does not require an action to trigger, you may evade the Staggered, Shaken, and/or Sickened conditions. This effect or ability cannot be from a spell buff ongoing at the end of your turn on Round 2 (any such have been debuffed). Other spells, such as Haste, remain active.) This monster also size large, hits AC35, and possesses See Invisible and Fast Swallow.

-- If you have a companion that is less than fully 12th level, it is no longer alive at this point. If it remains alive, it is within its move of you, but not within a 5' of full-attacking. It is capable of charging.

Do the best you can.

-- That's it. Dead or alive, tally up. If your character has "tricks" (sneak-attack, favored-enemy, favored terrain, trips on AoOs, has Smite, Bane enhancements, etc), compute damage twice: once for nothing-is-applicable and once for opponent-eats-everything-ya-got. If you think you can do it, do it.

=======

Damage/round formula: h(d+s)+tf(cd+cb+r)

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This doesn't exceed .95 (unless you autohit for whatever reason) and never goes below .05.
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. "s" stands for sneak attack, but this also includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, precision damage, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical Focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.

Remember to subtract one from your crit multiplier, or your damage will be over-done in the formula!

b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.

=======

Character construction:

What is allowed in PFS? A quick way to determine if a feature is permitted is to toss its name plus "nethys" into a search-engine, whereupon its listing at the Archives of Nethys will be found, and if the Pathfinder Society's round Glyph of the Open Road logo is displayed, the feature is very probably legal. For example, the feat Two-Weapon Fighting is PFS-legal. There are corner-cases, however, and these may have a red circle around the logo; this means that the campaign has issued a ruling which modifies unrestricted access. If the feature you found at Nethys doesn't have the logo, it's probably not PFS-legal.

That said, new material is introduced continuously and previously-legal old material is occasionally proscribed, and not even the indefatigable stalwarts helming Nethys can keep up. So here's the follow-up trick: Nethys will provide the name of the book or books in which the feature has appeared. Which that knowledge, head over to Pathfinder Society's Additional Resources page and scan down for that book. If your feature (or, more often, its umbrella category) is listed as legal, you're good to go.

Another great site aiding in character-generation is d20pfsrd. It does not indicate PFS-legality (note that all non-Paizo material is unapproved), but is very easy to navigate and quickly explore options.

Lastly, wording in the PRD (searchable from this site) trumps wording from any other source.

=======

Winner's Circle

From time to time, a build tactic will be recognized as overwhelmingly strong and dominating competition. Said tactic will then be "given the gold" and retired. New contestants may NOT use retired tactics (we already know they're very powerful).

Current winners:

* Polymorth into multiattack monster. (You may still employ Enlarge Person, mutagens, and similar effects which don't significantly alter your form.)

== == == ==

* Final thread rule: We're here to have fun kickin' monster butt! Please keep the signal-to-noise ratio positive. No critiquing until you've posted a build (error-correcting permitted).


I've been mulling over an unusual build: I hope you all enjoy it!
Bard(Savage Skald)/Pathfinder Chronicler 5/7 ! That's right! A terrible bard archetype combined with an even worse prestige class. My thanks goes to the Pathfinder Chronicler guide for inspiration and help.

Build:

Bard(Savage Skald) 5/ Pathfinder Chronicler 7
name: Brian, race: Human
Stats: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16 +2 human +3 from lvls +6 items, total Cha 27
Traits: Maestro of the Society (+3 performance rounds), other
HP: 81,
Feats Human: Extra Performance
lvl 1: Extra Performance
lvl 3: Extra Performance
lvl 5: Lingering Performance
lvl 7: Defiant Luck
lvl 9: Inexplicable Luck
lvl 11: Masterpiece(Vindicative Soliloquay)
Spells: Mirror Image + others

Equipment:Ring of Sustenance 2500gp
Everwake Amulet 8000gp
Charisma Headband +6 36000gp
Lesser Quicken Rod 35000gp
Cloak Resistance +5 25000gp
Trained Hirelings*166 50gp/day
Hirelings' Families Pension Fund: 3000gp
167 Epic Tales

If I use any rulings or assumptions that are questionable or silly, they will be in bold.

The crux of this build is the Pathfinder Chronicler ability: Epic Tales.

Epic Tales(Su) wrote:


A 4th-level Pathfinder chronicler can inscribe a tale so evocative and so moving that it conveys the effects of bardic music through the written word. To create an epic tale requires the pathfinder chronicler to expend a number of rounds of her bardic performance ability equal to twice the duration of the epic tale (maximum duration of 10 rounds), and any relevant Performance skill check is made with Profession (scribe) instead. An epic tale affects only the reader, but it grants all the benefits that would normally apply for hearing a performance. A Pathfinder chronicler may apply the effects of any feats that affect bardic music to her epic tales. An epic tale retains its supernatural potency for 1 day per class level. It requires 1 hour to inscribe, a full-round action to activate, and a duration equal to 1/2 the number of bardic performance rounds expended during its creation. Once activated, an epic tale’s magic is consumed.

Essentially, Brian can create Epic Tales which apply the effect of a bardic performance to the reader, it takes a full-round to activate and it does not require a skill check to do! Thus, anyone who can read can use an Epic Tale. It takes 1 hr to make one, with only ink and paper as costs. With the Ring of Sustenance and the Amulet of Everwake, Brian can create Epic Tales for the 6 days and 23 hours before the fight, for a total of 167 Epic Tales. Since the feat Lingering Performance is applied to the Epic Tale, an Epic Tale made using 2 performance rounds lasts for 3 rounds.

What performance do we scribe into these 167 Epic Tales? Why, Vindicative Soliloquay of course! For these, we require the ruling: Bard Masterpieces considered Bardic Performance, and thus subject to ALL rules and mechanics that govern performances. There's a long running FAQ on this subject that has not been resolved. Normally this performance requires 5 full rounds to activate, but when it is an Epic Tale, it requires only a full-round. Once the performance is complete, you may conjure bolts of lightning as though you had cast call lightning storm. Each bolt requires a standard action to call down and deals 5d6 sonic damage (Ref half), range 100'+10ft/lvl.

Combat:

Here's how combat goes: Brian and his 166 hirelings are monster hunting. Each hireling has 1 Epic Tale in hand. Brian is holding the Rod of Quicken Metamagic and a Epic Tale.
Round 1: Brian - Quicken Mirror Image then activate Epic Tale(Vindicative Soliloquay)
Hirelings: Activate Epic Tale

Monster attacks Brian! But with Mirror Image up, he should be fine

Round 2: Standard action: Everyone calls a bolt of lightning down onto the monster. Assuming hirelings' Cha=10, Brian's DC=10+5+8=23, hireling DC=10. Monster rolls total save of 35 everytime. So 0.5*5d6 is
8.75 damage per bolt. With 167 bolts of lightning, the total damage is
1461.25!!!

Monster attacks, every hireling dies or flees.

Round 3: Call bolt of lightning, deal 8.75 damage before you die.


So this build deals an average of 1461 damage in round 2, I think this is the highest the thread has seen thus far. But wait! With an alteration of the build, and a sillier assumption, we can do better.

This next build changes two things: first, the lvl 11 feat is now Discordant Voice, second, the 167 Epic Tales are the Savage Skald performance: Song of the Fallen. Song of the Fallen summons 2d4+2 (av. 7) lvl 2 barbarians that obey the performer absolutely and completely. The important bit is Discordant Voice. Since the Epic Tale applys the effects of Dischordant Voice, and multiple users of Discordant Voice stack with each other, everyone in 30ft gains 1d6 sonic damage on their attacks for each reader!

Discordant Voice wrote:


Whenever you are using bardic performance to create a spell-like or supernatural effect, allies within 30 feet of you deal an extra 1d6 points of sonic damage with successful weapon attacks. This damage stacks with other energy damage a weapon might deal. Projectile weapons bestow this extra damage on their ammunition, but the extra damage is dealt only if the projectile hits a target within 30 feet of you.

Hence:

Combat:

Round 1: Brian, Quicken Mirror Image, then read Epic Tale
Hirelings read Epic Tale. In total, 1169 barbarians are summoned.

Round 2: Super Silly Assumption: Brian, all the hirelings, all the barbarians and the monster are all within a circle 30ft in diameter.
Everyone uses a sling/dart and fires one shot at the monster. We'll only count the bonus damage dealt by the Discordant Voice feat. 167 readers means all attacks deal +167d6 sonic damage (av 584.5). Only an attack roll of 20 hits, therefore total damage is 0.05*(1169+167)*584.5 = 39044.6!!!

Round 3: Everyone dies.


Thus we deal 39044 damage in one round (given a rather silly assumption on packing of people)! Beat that!


Quote:
With the Ring of Sustenance and the Amulet of Everwake, Brian can create Epic Tales for the 6 days and 23 hours before the fight, for a total of 167 Epic Tales.

Brian also needs the time to interview and hire 166 people (he needs to ensure they can read), and arrange to pay them (he'll need big sacks of coins). Many scenarios play out in less than a week's time, and buffs do not "keep" between sessions (although I believe there are allowances for spellstoring items). With a solid week's worth of scribing, you only have five days to hire people and then adventure to the encounter before the first Epic Tails hit the 12 day limit (your caster level CL12) and lose their supernatural potency.

What level are these hirelings? Given what you're having them do, it sounds like a "contingency service" with a "risk level" of "suicidal" for 1st-level commoners, meaning you're paying 166 commoners 3 platinum pieces per day of adventuring, and that's not counting their other equipment and provisions, which you're probably paying for as well. (These costs are multiplied by the level of the hirelings: 2nd-levels cost twice as much, etc.)

Finally, you need some means of preventing most of this rabble from running off after you've given them a year's worth of wages in two days.


Firstly, the Epic Tales lose potency after 1/day per lvl in Pathfinder Chronicler, so after 7 days, not caster level (which is 5 by the way, Pathfinder Chronicler is a bad prestige class that doesn't advance spellcasting).

Secondly, the time to interview and hire hirelings is not taken into account because this is not a campaign. This is a DPS test, so we only care about the crunch of a character. If you want a fluff reason, then perhaps you have a recuitment agent/agency do the legwork, or your lazy party members, or the king pressgangs people to kill an unstoppable monster.

Thirdly, I assume the hirelings are lvl 1 of any NPC class. The only requirement is that they can read. I don't think this is a contingency service, a cotingency service is when the NPCs hired a completing a task without the player characters. In this case, Brian is with them. I just realised I don't need the metamagic rod, since Mirror Image can be one of the pre-existing buffs on Brian (not like he's using any). That's extra money, if more is needed to hire people.

Fourthly, again this is a story objection, in a DPS test. In an actual campaign, perhaps the unstoppable monster is heading towards their city and will destroy it. Perhaps, as Brian has high Charisma and easily can pump up Diplomacy, he persuades them.

Anyway, thanks for the reply! Any objections to the build or the combat rounds?


Oh! I forgot to mention that things get even sillier at lvl 13. Firstly, Brian gets Greater Epic Tales.

Greater Epic Tales (Su) wrote:

At 8th level, the Pathfinder chronicler’s written word gains power. This ability functions like the chronicler’s epic tales ability, except that if read aloud, the bardic music takes effect as if the author had used the ability, but the effects are targeted by the reader and use the reader’s Charisma score where applicable.

So we could take the Thundercaller archetype, write 167 Epic Tales (Thundercall) and hit the monster for 167*5d8 damage with no save. The average damage is 3757.

We can go even more ludicrous if we look at non-PFS material. The masterpiece Music Beyond the Spheres grants the spell Limited Wish. I'm not sure what the rules are for supernatural (Su) abilities and material components. If we use the dubious ruling that: (Su) abilities do not require material components if they replicate a spell that requires them, then we have 167 Limited Wishes! If you can't kill a monster with that, I don't know what else to do. I think 167 Flesh to Stones would work, the monster is exceedingly likely to roll a critical failure on one of those rolls.

If we do require the material components, then by losing all the equipment except the ring and the amulet, Brian would have enough money for about 70 Limited Wishes.

You may think we've reached peak absurdity, but we can go even better by taking another level in Pathfinder Chronicler. At lvl 14, we improve the performace Inspire Action:

Inspire Action (Su) wrote:

As a special use of bardic music, a 6th-level Pathfinder chronicler can exhort any one ally within hearing to a sudden surge of action, allowing her ally to immediately take an extra move action. This does not count against the ally’s number of actions on his own turn.

At 9th level, she can enable an ally to immediately take a standard action instead.

If we allow allies to be helpful, then Brian can create 167 Epic Tales (Inspire Action), have the hirelings read them in round 1, then because of Lingering Performance Brian gets 167 bonus standard actions in rounds 1 and 2! That's enough time to apply every buff from potions or scrolls you fancy in round 1, then Bladed Dash up to the monster and attack 167 times! Plus, if we reintroduce the silly assumption that Brian, the monster, and 167 hirelings occupy a 30ft diameter circle, then every attack is buffed by Discordant Voice to have an extra 167d6 sonic damage!

Rather than trawl through the lists of every possible spell to find an optimal buff routine, lets simplify and say Brian hits 80% of the time and deals an average of 20 damage without the Discordant Voice buff. Then he deals 20+167d6 damage per attack, for an average of 604.5 damage. With 167 attacks, plus the attack from Bladed Dash, Brian deals a total of 80761.2 damage! I will remind you this build is PFS legal, but requires a (very) silly assumption plus helpful allies. Enjoy!

Liberty's Edge

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Quote:
...the time to interview and hire hirelings is not taken into account because this is not a campaign. This is a DPS test....

PFS is a campaign. The first sentence of the (Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide) begins: "In an organized play campaign...", and the PSRGG is the "campaign bible". The DPR challenge is a hypothetical encounter.

Hiring NPCs for a specific, one-shot task is a contingency service: "Contingency services are similar to contacts, but represent paying hirelings in advance for future services that begin after a specified signal or time limit. Unlike contacts, most contingency services are arranged as a single transaction, buying one service performed in case of a specific event." Hiring first-level commoners to pack themselves in tightly around an uncaged monster is a suicidal request.

Even if you could bluff a regularly company (i.e., less expensive) of men-at-arms, they're going to start asking questions almost immediately, and subsequently jack up their rate, which you will pay, or see them leave.

What can hirelings do in PFS? As it turns out, not a lot. They can be hired for out-of-combat services, but typically cannot be for adventuring (bringing hired NPC spellcasters along is specifically proscribed). A "porter" is a vanity item costing prestige points, can only carry your stuff, and disappears into Hammerspace during combat.

* * * *

Wait, what's this? Hold the Scry-horn, everyone! Late-breaking news has informed us that newly-appointed head campaign-coordinator Tonya Woldridge is currently being held locked-up in a hall closet following a coup d'etat by rebellious regional venture-captains (something to do with a recently-implemented policy concerning candy treat requirements for the upcoming holidays -- a Snickers ban policy did not go down well, we hear, something to do with peanut allergies -- although our correspondents have yet to verify these potentially erroneous details), and for a brief time, chaos reigns down at the Lodge in Absalom.

Therefore, for the next week, ending at the stroke of midnight on Halloween, October 31st, PEASANT RAILGUN builds will be entertained in the arena. In fact, all fees are waived! The jails have been emptied, and a mass of "suicide squad" prisoners are yours to do with as you please, and you don't have to pay them a penny.

The mechanics will still have to be PFS-legal (items, spells, feats, etc), save regards to the employment of 1st-level commoners.


I still don't know how you expect any spellcaster to be able to cast a DC 36 spell at this level. Generally an average CR 12 monster needs a natural 20 on a good save in order to get a 35. "Squishies welcome" my ass.

I also don't see the point in a scenario where you start out pinned and at 0 hp beneath a monster. If you're already disabled, literally any action is going to send you into unconciousness unless your character has supernatural healing. If this scenario occurs while you are alone, then in 99 games out of 100, Omae wa mou Shindeiru.


Kaouse wrote:
I still don't know how you expect any spellcaster to be able to cast a DC 36 spell at this level. Generally an average CR 12 monster needs a natural 20 on a good save in order to get a 35. "Squishies welcome" my ass.

That might have been tongue-in-cheek, but....

Things granting bonuses to beating SR:

1 Gifted Adept (trait)
2 Elven Magic racial trait
2 Elven Spirit (half-elf feat)
2 Spell Penetration (feat)
2 Greater Spell Penetration (feat)
2 Spell Specialization (feat)
2 Allied Spellcaster (feat in both you and an ally, else +2)
5 Piercing Spell (metamagic; actually target’s SR is -5)
1 Varisian Tattoo (feat)
1 Orange Prism Ioun Stone (a rip-off at 30,000gp)
5 Dweomer’s Essence (500gp; now that’s more like it)
4 Prayer Beads (need the version with the Karma bead, which is out of bounds here at 45,800 gp)
% Divination (Foresight) school (reroll a d20 3+INT times per day)
? Spell Perfection (feat cannot be taken before 15th, but it would *double* the numerical bonuses granted by other feats, up to +10 more if SP, GSP,Allied/eSpirit).

An “easy” build would be a Gifted Adept elf or half-elf div(foresight) wizard with Allied Spellcaster in both himself and a magic-capable familiar, and Dweomer’s Essence. At 12th, he’s already +27 to overcome spell resistance without the Spell Penetration chain or any big-ticket items, or having debuffed the monster in some way. Add in SP/GSP and he's +31 and 96% to succeed factoring a reroll.

Quote:
I also don't see the point in a scenario where you start out pinned and at 0 hp beneath a monster.

You don't "start out" that way. The last round was a recent tack-on added to see if anybody could do anything.

I'm working on something that can handle the last round, but I'll wait until after the peasant railgun week is over.


What does SR have to do with Spell Save DC? Would you be capable of showing me a build that can get it's spell save DC up to 36 by level 12?

As for the last encounter, the only thing I can think of legitimately is a cleric/life oracle/paladin with Liberation Channel. Heals and grants freedom of movement simultaneously, as a supernatural effect. However, it requires 7d6 Channel Energy, whereas level 12 characters only have 6d6.

Other classes, like a Bard/Skald with the Symphony of the Elysian Heart Masterpiece, or a Teleportation wizard with Shift, can escape via supernatural effects, but because they're at 0 hp, they'll automatically fall unconscious. A Skald with Skald's Vigor active could perhaps survive.

A Barbarian with Strength Surge and Diehard or Ferocity (possibly the Deathless Rage Power) could possibly make the check to escape and ignore the downsides of being at negative HP, but that only lasts so long, and they have no real way to heal themselves unless they also took Guarded life, an absolutely sub-par/downright terrible rage power.

In the end, all you will prove is that characters made to solve your challenging scenario will solve it. It's not applicable to the vast array of games or scenarios real players will face at all. As such, it's completely useless and should be dropped.

Liberty's Edge

Kaouse wrote:
What does SR have to do with Spell Save DC? Would you be capable of showing me a build that can get it's spell save DC up to 36 by level 12?
It rolled high and the result is a 35. It's uncanny how often this monster gets a 35. (Now do half-damage and be glad it didn't have Improved Evasion.)
Quote:
...In the end, all you will prove is that characters made to solve your challenging scenario will solve it.
The best take home gold.
Quote:
As such, it's completely useless and should be dropped.

No refunds. Says so right on your entry-form.


Mike Schneider wrote:


PFS is a campaign. The first sentence of the (Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide) begins: "In an organized play campaign...", and the PSRGG is the "campaign bible". The DPR challenge is a hypothetical encounter.

Ahhh, okay. I thought this was an isolated fight test using the PFS rules. Well reading the rules for contingent services, it doesn't say how long it takes to recruit 167 hirelings, so that's upto the DM's descretion. There's very lower requirements for hiring; they just need to be able to read out loud and not run from combat. I realise now that most of the items I bought are superfluous, since it's impossible to boost the DC of performances to 36 or over. Thus, Brian could only buy the ring and the amulet, then use all the left over money to stuff the mouths of any hirelings who complain.

What about my original build? In that one, the hirelings can be upto 100ft away from the monster. Is that less suicidal?

On another note, if you want a Peasant Railgun, then you may have one. Brian at Pathfinder Chronicler lvl 8 with 168 hirelings and 167 Epic Tales(Inspire Action). The idea is that Brian and 167 hirelings all use Inspire Action on 1 hireling (called Gonzales), who uses all his standard actions to ready a move action to trigger when Brian shouts "Go!".

Brian casts Expeditious Retreat on Gonzales as a swift action, using a Lessser Quicken Metamagic Rod, then uses his move action and standard action to Inspire Action twice. With 167 bonus standard actions from the other hirelings and his original standard action, Gonzales readies 170 move actions and has 60ft move speed. Brian shouts "Go!", and Gonzales takes off, moving 10200ft = 3111 metres in 6 seconds=1 round. He moves at 519 m/s, a standard human has a base weight of 120lb and with 10 Str can carry 33lb before becoming encumbered, for a total weight of 69kg. Thus, his kinetic energy when he runs into the monster is 9.3*10^6 J, or about 2kg of TNT, which according to Wikipedia is enought to destroy a small vehicle. Of course, in game Gonzales runs headlong into the monster and damages only his ego (and perhaps face).

If we use Gonzales' friend Harry, who we've given a Racing Broom of Flying, he can move 120ft in a move action using the speed boost. The broom can also carry upto 200lb =90kg before encumberence. Doing this increases the energy to 11.6kg of TNT, but costs 30000gp per broom. Probably cheaper to use peasants.

As an aside, Epic Tales have a duration of 1 day/lvl. Is it possible to extend it by either coating it in Unguent of Timelessness, to make it last 1 year/lvl, or place them in a Death's Head Coffer, which holds the contents in stasis rending the contents immune to aging?


The Peasant Railgun isn't necessarily about building a railgun (although that's what the original did), it refers to any crazy concept involving a mook army of commoners.

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Mike Schneider wrote:

Winner's Circle

From time to time, a build tactic will be recognized as overwhelmingly strong and dominating competition. Said tactic will then be "given the gold" and retired. New contestants may NOT use retired tactics (we already know they're very powerful).

Current winners:

* Polymorth into multiattack monster. (You may still employ Enlarge Person, mutagens, and similar effects which don't significantly alter your form.)

Hey Mike, didn't you also get rid of Pre-charges...

if not, here's Franco Falcata again,

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mis1&page=4?The-PFS-DPR-Olympics-12th-lev el-challenge#198

and his 713 pts...

Also, is there a limit on consumable costs? I don't see one, and there probably should be...


Ooo....I'd forgotten about this thread. (Gonna have to pour through old text files to find that critter-rider build I was working on.)

pad300, charge-lanes are blocked for you at the beginning (you can still AoO if your reach exceeds 10' when the monsters moves to attack, or if you have OP&R or some such). There's no prohibition against charging in the final round, although it would have to be your riderless animal companion doing so (riderless because you're pinned under the monster at that point).


Slim Jim wrote:

Ooo....I'd forgotten about this thread. (Gonna have to pour through old text files to find that critter-rider build I was working on.)

pad300, charge-lanes are blocked for you at the beginning (you can still AoO if your reach exceeds 10' when the monsters moves to attack, or if you have OP&R or some such). There's no prohibition against charging in the final round, although it would have to be your riderless animal companion doing so (riderless because you're pinned under the monster at that point).

The current challenge doesn't say that charge lanes are blocked. It says you can't see the monster on round 1, until when it comes to beat on you. The build uses a readied Rhino Charge in response to the monster closing with you...

I was under the impression he had admitted this tactic to the "Retirement Hall of Fame" as of post
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mis1&page=4?The-PFS-DPR-Olympics-12th-lev el-challenge#199
where he said:

Mike Schneider wrote:

When we get to the next page, I'll update the rules for the reboot. In the meantime, Deighton Thrane is awarded the September 2017 Gold medal in PFS-legal cheese for two build-mechanics that are pretty much impossible to top save by derivations in the same theme, and they are:

1) Polymorphing into a multi-attack monster.
2) Exploiting a contest loophole to enjoy two full-attacks.

And with, off the winner's circle they go to reflex and be fed grapes while the struggle in the arena continues.

Builds going forward:

* You may not transform into a monster. (Mutagens and size-changes are otherwise OK.)

* You will not receive a full-attack as a readied action on the monster turn between the Prep round and the Battle round.

But both 2) and no attack as a readied action are not in the latest posted challenge... And again, there should be a limit on consumables, or we are going to see a scroll of Gate sooner or later...


This page wrote:
* Monster Turn: a large opponent with 10' reach moves up to 10' away on its turn and strikes you for damage, hitting AC35. It is AC 30, Touch 18, Flat 25. If you have buffs, items or abilities which generate one or more attacks of opportunity in this scenario, take them. You do not have a clear charge lane. Any check you make against it is versus 35 (skills, CMD, saves, resistance, whatever). The monster’s attack roll is 35....

This was included specifically to preclude Rhino's Charge, because otherwise all contenders would need to have it due to full-attack x2 exploits. (See discussion last page.)


A question: Creature A has Pinned PC B. Creature A is then succesfully Grappled by Animal Companion C. What is the effect on PC B's pinned status?


Ok, we have a squishy who figures he can a) GET RETIRED, and B) SURVIVE ROUND 3!!!!

The Build:

Druid (Lion Shaman Archetype)
Samarasan (Mystic Past Life - Blessing of Fervor, ???)
Str 9
Dex 18 (15 +3 Level Bumps)
Con 10 (12 - 2 racial)
Int 12 (10 +2 racial)
Wis 16 (14, +2 racial,)
Chr 15

Feats
1 Flagbearer
3 SF – Conjuration
5 Augment Summoning
7 Superior Summoning
9 Quicken Spell
11 ????

Skills : Ride

Equipment: 2xEmpowering Topaz (2X2000 gp), Quickening Diamond (8000gp), Banner of the Ancient Kings (18000 gp), Longspear,
Relevant Spells memorized : Bull’s Strength (2nd) (pre-cast), Strong Jaw (4th) (pre-cast), Blessing of Fervor (4th), Animal Growth (5th) (pre-cast),Cure Critical Wounds (5th) Quickened Mud Ball (5th), has 2 sixth level slots to spontaneous SNA.

Lion Animal Companion
base St 21 (post 7th), Bite 1d8, ClawsX2 1d6, Grab, Rake 1d6 )
BAB +7 ST +4, 5 feats (WF Claws, WF Bite, Stable Gallop, Improved Critical Claws, Improved Critical Bite), 5 Bonus Tricks, ST +2 ability score increases, Multiattack,
ST : 21+6 = 27,
AC Buffs :
Long Term: Greater Magic Fang (Bite) +4, Greater Magic Fang (Claws) +4
3 Short Term Buffs: Animal Growth (+8 St, Huge size), Bull’s Strength (+4 St), Strong Jaw
Effective To Hit : +7+4 Magic Fang +1 WF +15 St-2 size (huge)+2 BoAK = +28 (+other bonuses)
AC Equipment : Saddle (the druid is riding his AC), Collar of the True Companion (10000 gp)

The Tactics:

Round 1
Spontaneous Summon Natures Ally VI, empowered by metamagic gem for 1d3+1 X1.5 = (3,4,6 ) ~4 Young, Dire Tigers (YDT)
Blessings of Fervor, quickened by metamagic gem on the 4 YDT, Animal Companion, Self (Choose the +2 to attacks for all
Assumption : you cannot pre-position your summons so as to get AoO from them as the monster closes with you… You can position them though, that the AC can…
1 Lion bite AoO from AC (size huge = 15’ reach) + possible Grab and Rake.
The monster is very likely grappled and loses it’s planned attack against you…

Round 2
Caster takes a +2 to hit from BoF, AC & 4 YDT shifts BoF bonus to extra attack on full attack
Spontaneous Summon Natures Ally VI, empowered by metamagic gem for 1d3+1 X1.5 = (3,4,6 ) ~4 YDT in flanking positions or in positions to make flanks with other charging attackers.
1 Lion AC full attack = 1 bite, 2 claws, +1 bite from BOF + Possible Rake
Quickened Mud Ball (for temporary blindness on the Opponent)
All YDT Dire Tigers (8) charge in with pounce & flanking as appropriate = 8 bites+ 16 claws +4 more bites from BOF + possible Rakes
Round 3 :
Assume Summons have been wiped w/less than full level AC’s etc.
Lion AC charges and attacks
Assuming the monster being grappled releases the caster from the pin, cast cure critical wounds on self and stand up as a free action (BoF)

The Damage Math:

Note: at the bottom there is a convenient table of damage calcs by attack type.

Rd1
Bite AoO by Lion AC: +28 +2 BoF = +30 to hit >> .95 to hit & to confirm
4d6 +15 ST +4 MF +2 BoAK = 35
Grab +28 + 2 BoF +4 size (size mod reverses in a grapple) +4 Grab = + 38. Vs CMB of 35 >> only fail on a 1 for the grapple (.95), which triggers a rake (assume a grapple for simple Calcs)
Rake : +28 +2 BoF = +30 to hit >> .95 to hit & to confirm
2d8 +15 ST +4 MF +2 BoAK = 30
1 AC bite +.95^2 AC Rake
Total Rd 1 = 70.7655
Rd2
AC with full attack + BoF Attack, assuming target is previously grappled (again Calc simplicity although the routine is the same as -4 Dex for target cancels out -2 to attacks for Grappled Condition)
Lion AC Attacks: +28-2 Grappled +2 Flanking vs AC 28 (-4 to dex for target because of grappled) >> .95 to hit & to confirm
Bite (x2) : 4d6 +15 ST +4 MF +2 BoAK = 35
Claws (x2) : 2d8 +15 ST +4 MF +2 BoAK =30
Grab (X2 – 2 bites) +28 +4 size (size mod reverses in a grapple) +4 Grab = + 36. Vs CMB of 35 >> only fail on a 1 for the grapple (.95), which triggers a rake
Rake: 2d8 +15 ST +4 MF +2 BoAK = 30

Mudball in Rd2 by caster. No save until opponent round, no SR, Touch attack.
Opp TAC is 16 (assumed grappled for -4 dex): +9 for BAB, +2 Flagbearer &BoAK, +2 Blessings of Fervor, +4 Dex = +18 >> .95 to hit. Assume a hit for simple calcs ; the target is blind >> effective Target AC is now 23 (denied all dex and a -2 to hit on top).

YDT with Aug Summoning, BoAK, Charge &/or Flanking (one or the other – a lot should get both) : Note that they are only Medium size from young – they can all get in on a large critter
Bite +18 -1 Young (-2 from St +1 reduced size) +2 AugS +2 BoAK+2 Charge/Flank = +23 >> .95 to hit & to confirm
2d4 (young)+8 -2 Young +2 AugS +2 BoAK = 2d4 + 10 + Grab
Claw +18 -1 Young +2 AugS +2 BoAK+2 2 Charge/Flank = +23 >> .95 to hit & to confirm
2d3 (young)+8 -2 Young +2 AugS +2 BoAK = 2d3 + 10
Grab (on each bite) +23 CMD -3 Young +2 AugS+2 BoAK +2 Charge/Flanking (or both) = + 26. Vs CMB of 35-7 blind (no dex + -2 AC) = 28 >> only fail on a 2 for the grapple (.90), which triggers a rake
Rakes Claw +18 -1 Young +2 AugS +2 BoAK+2 2 Charge/Flank = +23 >> .95 to hit & to confirm
2d3 (young)+8 -2 Young +2 AugS +2 BoAK = 2d3 + 10

Most attackers should actually have a +25 to hit from both Charge and Flank, but +23 is enough, given post mudball AC…

1-(1- (0.95 hit bite)(0.95 succeed grapple))^2 = 1-(1-(.95)^2)^2)
1-(1- (0.95 hit bite)(0.90 succeed grapple))^2 = 1-(1-(.95)(.9))^2

8 YDT bites + 4 YDT Bites (BOF) + 16 claws+ 8*(1-(1-(.95)(.9))^2) Rakes+ 8*(.95)*(.90) Rakes +1 AC bite + 1 AC Bite (BOF) + 2 AC Claws +(1-(1-(.95)^2)^2)) AC Rake
Total Rd 2 : 818.9033203

Rd3
AC with full attack + BoF Attack, but BoAK has fallen (but not taken, I think)!
Lion AC Attacks: +28 +2 Charging -2 BoAK fallen vs AC 28 (-4 to dex for target because of grappled) >> .95 to hit & to confirm
Bite (x2) : 4d6 +15 ST +4 MF
Claws (x2) : 2d8 +15 ST +4 MF
Grab (X2 – 2 bites) +28 +4 size (size mod reverses in a grapple) +4 Grab = + 36. Vs CMB of 35 >> only fail on a 1 for the grapple (.95), which triggers a rake
Rake: 2d8 +15 ST +4 MF
1 AC bite + 1 AC Bite (BOF) + 2 AC Claws + 1-(1-(.95)^2)^2) AC Rake
Total Rd 3 : 170.7

Convenient Table:

Attack h d s t f c b r DMG
AC Bite 0.95 35 0 0.1 0.95 2 0 0 39.9
AC Rake 0.95 30 0 0.1 0.95 2 0 0 34.2
AC Claw 0.95 30 0 0.1 0.95 2 0 0 34.2
YDT Bite 0.95 15 0 0.05 0.95 2 0 0 15.675
YDT Claw 0.95 14 0 0.05 0.95 2 0 0 14.63
YDT Rake 0.95 14 0 0.05 0.95 2 0 0 14.63
AC Bite Rd3 0.95 33 0 0.1 0.95 2 0 0 37.62
AC Rake Rd3 0.95 28 0 0.1 0.95 2 0 0 31.92
AC Claw Rd3 0.95 28 0 0.1 0.95 2 0 0 31.92

Total DMG : 1060.365!!!

There is probably some improvement around the edges to be done by spending more of the money, and he has a feat left over...


I'm not sure what a "young" dire tiger is, but will assume it's not bigger than the CR8 Smilodon. While they are size large, dire tigers only have a reach of 5'; the monster will AoO them as they charge (a pounce is a type of charge). Since it is blind from the Mudball, the tigers will have total concealment (50% miss chance) but not cover. Any that are subject to being AoO'd after losing the 50/50 toss will need an AC of 38 to avoid (after losing AC2 for charging) a 95% chance of then being hit by the AoO, having their movement arrested, and losing their pounce.

(The list of monster features on this page appears to be missing the Grab property, which it had on previous pages. If that's an accidental oversight, then the monster in the final round does not have grappled condition itself while pinning the PC. Dunno if that makes a difference.)


Slim Jim wrote:

I'm not sure what a "young" dire tiger is, but will assume it's not bigger than the CR8 Smilodon. While they are size large, dire tigers only have a reach of 5'; the monster will AoO them as they charge (a pounce is a type of charge). Since it is blind from the Mudball, the tigers will have total concealment (50% miss chance) but not cover. Any that are subject to being AoO'd after losing the 50/50 toss will need an AC of 38 to avoid (after losing AC2 for charging) a 95% chance of then being hit by the AoO, having their movement arrested, and losing their pounce.

(The list of monster features on this page appears to be missing the Grab property, which it had on previous pages. If that's an accidental oversight, then the monster in the final round does not have grappled condition itself while pinning the PC. Dunno if that makes a difference.)

Young is a template, applied to the Dire Tiger - it's a class ability of the Lion Shaman that they can use SNA for felines as a Standard Action (like Sacred Summons) and further that they can summon from 1 spell up, by applying the Young template to the Feline, ie the Lion Shaman Druid has a Young Templated Dire Tiger on his SNA V list. It does make the kitties medium size.

With regards to the monster's AoO's, there is a roughly 95% chance that it's already grappled by the Animal Companion - who has more reach than said monster, and acted first on the characters ninitiative count - and you don't get AoO's when grappled.

Not to mention said monster would need combat reflexes (again, not specified) to stop more than 1 YDT, and that 50-50 miss chance is after picking the right square, from the 20 it has to choose from as this text diagram shows :

C is a square in which it could AoO a charge passing through, T is possible tiger strike square, A is the animal companion, and M is the monster's own space

_CCCCCC
_CTTTTC
_CTMMTC
_CTMMTC
_CTTTTC
_CCCCCC
AAA
AAA
AAA

So a 5% chance of not being grappled already, and a 1 in 40 chance of hitting a Tiger, and does it have combat reflexes.

Liberty's Edge

Roaring, charging, leaping, snarling LIONS and TIGERS!

===Grand Spectacle!===

The arena crowd goes wild! This is what they paid to see!

Slim Jim wrote:
The list of monster features on this page appears to be missing the Grab property.
Yes, that was an accidental omission (it should have it).
pad300 wrote:
Assuming the monster being grappled releases the caster from the pin, cast cure critical wounds on self and stand up as a free action

Unless you or your animal can force it away, assume the PC remains pinned.


There are ways to force an enemy to release a grapple/pin but they require either magic or multiple feats (e.g. Claw wrench; prereqs IUS, imp grapple), or else knocking the enemy out which is not an option in this scenario. Just grappling the enemy doesn't do it.

Grand Lodge

Also because it came up.

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.


avr wrote:
There are ways to force an enemy to release a grapple/pin but they require either magic or multiple feats (e.g. Claw wrench; prereqs IUS, imp grapple), or else knocking the enemy out which is not an option in this scenario. Just grappling the enemy doesn't do it.

OK, follow up question, would either Awesome Blow or Bull's Rush force a pin release?

Scenario as before, B has A pinned and C comes in and (Awesome Blow/Bull Rush)'s B, forcing B to move. Is A free of being Pinned, or does A come along for the ride with B?


Grandlounge wrote:
Also because it came up. You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
(...)
The rules in question wrote:
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment...
***HOWEVER***
Quote:
...though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

--And that's why you're able to attack invisible opponents (against whom you are effectively "blind").

(I.e., it's one of those badly-written exclusionary sentences of the sort where you have to flip the medallion and read the other side.)

There is no text in the Attack of Opportunity section that mentions concealment (or blindness). There is no text in the Blinded conditions section that precludes making attacks of opportunity. There is no text in the threaten squares section that asserts you do not threaten if you cannot see.

Cover (of any type)? Then you can't make attacks of opportunity.

Liberty's Edge

Note 1: In Round 3, the PC is pinned by the weight of the monster sitting on him; moving the monster will release the pin.

Note 2: While pinned, you cannot make attacks or cast spells with somatic or material components.

Note 3: Collar of the True Companion is not PFS-legal.

Grand Lodge

You don't attack invisible opponents you attack their square with a 50% of hitting them and you don't get an AOO against them.

You can't make an AOO because the creature has concealment. If you can't make an AOO how are you getting an AOO. More importantly, you are attacking into the square, not at the creature did the square provokes an AOO? Of course not.

My reading to the rule is consistent with both of the rules you quoted, yours requires you to ignore half the rules and specifically the one that says you can't do a thing.

Also, you misquoted the relevant rules, you should have quoted the concealment rules,

Quote:

Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I stand corrected.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's all good. There are thousands of rules I goof on some over and over again.


I tell you, the internet is conspiring against me. Coincident with this thread going on, I'm trying to figure out how the most insanely obtusely-worded martial archetype Paizo has ever put out, the Id Rager Bloodrager, exactly works. Everything important is buried five levels deep, and Nethys likes to choke and shut you out for half a day as an "anti-hacking" measure if you flit around a little too quickly using a browser with any semblance of security--which is really an incredible inconvenience when you're very impatient for your Limburger ...and, anyway, long, boring story short: I've spent the last few days trying to track down this persistent rumor that Anger phantoms can pull all sorts of ridiculous cheese that I couldn't verify.

So I necro a thread in Rules and ask, and some helpful guy answers promptly and says this-n-that, which is the same stuff I'd heard before, and so I throw it all at Google one more time...and then the thingy I was looking for pops up smack front-and-center on the same page I swear I'd been through at least a dozen times.

And I'm like, what the actual spotted fudge.... Am I Buick-driving Florida blue-hair who can't see over the wheel now?


Ability Scores, Racial Traits and Traits:
20 point buy. Human.
Str 17(+17) Dex 15 Con 14(+2/+4) Int 10 Wis 14(+2) Cha 7

Str:
+3 (4,8,12 increases), +4 (Belt), +4 (Rage), +4 (Mutagen), +2 (Wild Shape)

Con:
+2 (Belt), +4 (Rage)

Wis:
+2 (Headband)

Racial Traits:
Focused Study (Skill Focus at level 1, 8, & 16)
Skilled

Traits:
Adopted -> Boar Resilience
Wisdom in the Flesh (Escape Artist)

***

Levels and Feats:
UnRogue Guerrilla 2 / Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1 / Weretouched Shifter 4 / Vigilante 2 / Drill Sergeant 2 / Mutagenic Mauler 1

1. +1 Feat, Skill Focus (Escape Artist)
2. Rogue Talent: Stand Up
3. Extra Rage, Valet Rhamphorhynchus Bloodline Familiar, Improved Bull Rush (B)
4. Shifter Claws
5. Pursuit of Glory
6.
7. Shifter's Rush, Lycanthropic Wild Shape (Deinonychus)
8. Skill Focus (Perception)
9. Planar Wild Shape, Power Attack (B)
10. Sliding Dash (B)
11. Horn of the Criosphinx, +1 Teamwork Feat (B), Coordinated Charge (B)
12. IUS (B)

First feat is either retrained into Rhino Charge or Rogue Talent: Focusing Attack. But I'm gonna assume that Rhino Charge is 'banned'.

***

Magic Items:
Headband of +2 Wisdom (4,000)
Belt of Strength +4 (16,000 gp)
+2 Constitution Ioun Stone (implanted) (8000)

Rhino Hide (5165)
Furious, Vicious Amulet of Mighty Fists (16000)

+1 Competence to Attacks Ioun stone (Implanted) (4000)
Boots of Speed (12,000)
Helm of the Mammoth Lord (8,500)

Cloak of Resistance +3 (9000)

Corset of the Vishkanya (3,000), +5 untyped bonus to Escape Artist
Vest of Escape (5200), +6 Competence bonus to Escape Artist
Alchemical Grease x50 (250), +5 Alchemical bonus to Escape Artist
Eyes of the Eagle (2500)

Wand of Blur (4500)
Wand Key Ring (3000)
Palelight Torch (250)
Gloomstick x10 (250)

~99,000/110,000 GP spent

***

The Fight:
Chosen buffs: Mutagen and Blur.

Round 1:
Assuming that "You will not receive a full-attack as a readied action on the monster turn between the Prep round and the Battle round" is still a rule, I'd not use the last feat to take Rhino Charge and ready a full attack.

Instead, if the weather is good, I'll crack open a gloomstick.
If the weather is bad, I'll spend my turn watching the non-existent flowers.
My familiar uses this time to fly above me, if it wasn't already there.

Round 2:
I charge the creature. This allows me to Wildshape as a free action, while applying the Celestial Template to myself
(Darkvision, DR 10/Evil, Resist Cold/Acid/Electricity 15, SR=HD+6, and Smite Evil 1/day)

(I Smite if possible)

It doesn't matter how close I am, since Sliding Dash allows me to charge through the enemy's space. But I do not have a +35 Acrobatics modifier, so I'll probably fail the check and provoke an AoO while "completing the charge as normal".

The two levels in Guerrilla Rogue, the Palelight Torch and Blur grants me Total Concealment. So as mentioned in the posts above, the creature can not take their AoO's against me.

My charge triggers Coordinated Charge from my Rhamphorhynchus, which in turn triggers Coordinated Charge from me. (It avoids the AoO with a readied action to block the attack with a Tower Shield)
So I charge again.

Round 3:
I'm prone, pinned, shaken, sickened, staggered, and at 0hp.

I am not disabled thanks to Boar Resilience.

I begin with escaping the Pinned condition with my +39 Escape Artist check (Shaken/Sickened accounted for, can't fail) as a standard action. Then I stand up as a free action with the Stand Up rogue talent.

My Familiar charges the enemy, allowing me to charge as an immediate action.
Lastly, the Focusing Attack rogue talent allows me to end the Sickened condition.

***

Damage:
Round 2:
Since I have Total Concealment, my opponent is denied their Dex-to-AC. Going with the average monster statistics by CR, a creature with AC 30 should have a flat-foot AC of 26.

Attack Bonus: BAB (11) + Str (12) + 2 (Enhancement bonus) +2 (Charging) +1 (Haste) +1 (Competence) -3 (Power Attack)
= +26 (0.95)

Damage: 24 (Str x2)* +2 (Enhancement bonus) +6 (Power Attack) +2d6 (Rhino Hide) +2d6 (Vicious) + dmg dice
= 46 + dmg dice

*Horn of the Criosphinx
1 level of Brawler qualifies us as a monk, and nothing says that we have to use unarmed attacks to benefit.

Attacks per Charge:
3 Talons (1 from Haste): 1d8
2 Claws: 1d4
1 Gore: 1d6
1 Bite: 1d6

Damage in round 2: ~691.6
Sneak Attack: + ~46.5
Smite Evil: + ~167.2

Total: 905.3

*

Round 3:

Attack Bonus of the first attack: +26 -2 (Shaken) -2 (Sickened) +2 (Pursuit of Glory)
= 24 (0.95)

Attack Bonus of the remaining 6 attacks: +26 -2 (shaken)
= 24 (0.95)

Damage in round 3: ~343.8
Sneak Attack: +23.3

Total: 367.1

***

This build can definitely be improved upon to reach higher DPR, but I wanted to make it balanced and viable too. No sense reaching 1000 DPR if your Will save is +3, right?

740 DPR is the expected dmg of any round, while still having great defensive abilities like 50% miss chance, DR 10, SR and Resist Energy.

I'd probably switch out the Boar Resilience trait for Fury of the Red if I was gonna use the build, to gain another +2 to Will saves.

Also.
Suck it, Round 3.


I don't think your round 3 works - Your familiar is "less than fully 12th level" and thus has been arbitrarily killed off... No charge for him (and thus for you...)


In round 1, you do not have a clear charge-lane.

In round 3, you cannot charge because, after wriggling out from the pin, you end up in a square adjacent to the monster -- but you need to move at least 10' in order to charge.

How do you figure you're 95% to hit when your attack bonus is ranging from +26 to +24?

BTW, Horn of the Criosphinx will only work the way you want it to so long as you don't take it in a monk bonus slot (because then it comes saddled with limitations). It does not appear that you have done so, so...everything's fine there.

2nd BTW: Sliding Dash's Acrobatics check would need to beat a DC of 45 (because it's 10 + opponent CMD, with is 35 in this case).


pad300 wrote:

I don't think your round 3 works - Your familiar is "less than fully 12th level" and thus has been arbitrarily killed off... No charge for him (and thus for you...)

Oh, you're right.

Since my familiar has more hit dice, better saves, is smarter, and frankly, more beautiful than any animal companion it must have slipped my mind.
(it does have around 10 hp less than a Bird AC of the same level, though)

Take Iron Will with the free feat, Familiar Bond instead of the Skill Focus(es), and change the Bloodrager archetype from Blood Conduit to Id Rager with the Anger Emotional Focus.

The archetype gives us another +2 to Strength and Power Attack as a bonus feat, freeing up the last feat slot to grab Improved Familiar Bond.

Now my new familiar doesn't have more HP, or hit dice, but it qualifies.

Also, since my Strength was raised I'll deal ~28 more damage in round 2.

***

The new Escape Artist bonus is: 15 (Ranks+Class) + 3 (Wisdom) -1 (ACP) + 11 (Magic Items) +5 (Alchemical) -2 (Shaken) -2 (Sickened)
= 29

We'll throw in a Practice Straitjacket for another +2, placing us three points away from auto-success.

I considered The Flexing Arm instead of Wisdom in the Flesh, but I'm not sure what the author meant with "bondage". If it applies, we're sitting on a +41 modifier.

If we choose any of the two Familiars that grant +3 to Escape Artist checks. We auto-succeed.


Slim Jim wrote:
In round 1, you do not have a clear charge-lane.

Yep. Doesn't matter much because I'm not doing anything like that.

*

Slim Jim wrote:
How do you figure you're 95% to hit when your attack bonus is ranging from +26 to +24?

I'm assuming that the flat-footed AC of the monster is lower that its AC. It should be 26 if it has 30 AC, but you could just not use Power Attack if you want more accuracy.

*

Slim Jim wrote:
In round 3, you cannot charge because, after wriggling out from the pin, you end up in a square adjacent to the monster -- but you need to move at least 10' in order to charge.
Slim Jim wrote:
2nd BTW: Sliding Dash's Acrobatics check would need to beat a DC of 45 (because it's 10 + opponent CMD, with is 35 in this case).

The answer is that Sliding Dash says that you complete the charge if you fail the check.

I'm interpreting that as a way to avoid the 10 ft charge limitation, but the build could be made Dex-based to reach the skill bonus. It would take a pretty big hit in damage, though.

Liberty's Edge

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Further notes: 1. no alignment has been given for the monsters; assume they are neutral. (If you want to compute hypothetical Smite damage, go ahead.)

2. I observe that I have not given AC figures for the round 3 monster. I will therefore up the ante slightly: Your AC target number in Round 3 is 30 no matter what (even touch or flat-footed, sole exception being you've rendered it helpless somehow). If you can nerf its AC by blinding it, feinting, etc, congratulations, you did! And now it's down to 30 from whatever higher value it originally was.

Quote:
Suck it, Round 3.

That's the sort of ornery can-do spirit that our arena crowd really appreciates!


Same build, but with Id Rager/Improved Familiar Bond to fulfill the requirement of being 12th level.
I'm also using the last teamwork feat slot to take Ferocious loyalty, giving me a +1 Morale Bonus to all attacks against opponents threatening my familiar.

*

DPR round 2: 719.4 + (46.5 SA) = 765.9

+27 to hit on first charge (0.95/0.90)
+28 to hit on second charge (0.95)

If the opponent doesn't have a lower flat-footed AC, then the DPR is 20 lower.

*

DPR round 3: 291.7 + (23.2 SA) = 313.9

Shaken, Sickened, Not using PA
+27 to hit vs AC 30 (0.9)


Quote:
My charge triggers Coordinated Charge from my Rhamphorhynchus, which in turn triggers Coordinated Charge from me. (It avoids the AoO with a readied action to block the attack with a Tower Shield)

I don't think it can pull off that much action economy: The last sentence of Coordinated Charge reads: "You must be able to follow all of the normal charge rules", and a readied action is a standard action, which you cannot combine with a charge (i.e., the very aspect that Vital Strikers have been grousing about for years).


Slim Jim wrote:
Quote:
My charge triggers Coordinated Charge from my Rhamphorhynchus, which in turn triggers Coordinated Charge from me. (It avoids the AoO with a readied action to block the attack with a Tower Shield)
I don't think it can pull off that much action economy: The last sentence of Coordinated Charge reads: "You must be able to follow all of the normal charge rules", and a readied action is a standard action, which you cannot combine with a charge (i.e., the very aspect that Vital Strikers have been grousing about for years).

Alright, here's how I figured it worked.

Round Start:
Master and Familiar acts on the same initiative pass. (Or familiar first)

Familiar goes first, using its move action to get in position and readies an action to use the Tower Shield. End of Turn

Master uses Smite Evil as a swift action. (She only has a swift action the first round in combat)
Master charges as a Full-Round action. End of Turn

Master's charge triggers Coordinated Charge for the Familiar, and it charges as an Immediate action. During this charge, the readied action is triggered.

Familiar's charge triggers Coordinated Charge for the Master, and she charges as an Immediate action.

***

It would be simpler to make the Familiar use its move action to place its master between itself and the enemy. Then it can do whatever with the standard, maybe Total Defense.
When Coordinated Charge triggers, it charges through its master (Pursuit of Glory allows this) and avoids the AoO thanks to the soft cover. When it enters the space of the enemy, it doesn't provoke either because of the Sudden Swoop ability that the Rhamphorhynchus has.

This wouldn't help if the enemy has 15 ft reach, so the Tower Shield might be useful on second thought. But then it wouldn't need to ready an action, just choose which direction (on its turn) to gain Total Cover towards.

***

Also, defensive stats for the revised build.

Senses and Defense:
Hasted, Raging, Wild Shape and Mutagen

HP: 105 + 24 from Rage
(Shifter FCB in HP)

Senses

Darkvision (60 ft)
Low-light Vision
Scent (30 ft)
Base Speed 70 (50 with armor, 70 if Hasted)

*

Armor Class

AC 17, Touch 6, Flat-footed 17
-1 (Dex) +6 (Armor) -2 (Rage) -4 (Charge) +2 (Natural) +2 (Defensive Instict) +1 (Haste) +3 (Shield of Blades)

CMD: 30

*

Saves
Normal saves:
Fortitude +19, Reflex +14, Will +14

Partial saves:
Fortitude +15.33, Reflex +9.5, Will +16.33

*

Total Concealment (Based on Blur, beats See Invisibility):
You don't provoke AoO's, you're not an option for single-target spells/SU's, and you're immune to Precision damage.

DR 10/Evil or* DR 10/Good

Resist Cold, Acid, and Electricity 15 or* Resist Cold and Fire 15

Spell Resistance equal to CR+6 (18 atm)

*A neutral character can choose between the Celestial and Fiendish template when activating Planar Wild Shape, allowing you to take DR/Good when facing evil-aligned enemies, for example.

Planar Wild Shape uses up two uses of Wild Shape, but since we have 7 uses per day that shouldn't be a problem.

***

Edit: I also realized that buying Tusk Blades for 50 gp would raise the DPR by little under 10 for round 2.
So 775 DPR in a normal round.


Question for Wonderstell, where are the claw attacks in your attack routine coming from?

Attacks per Charge:
3 Talons (1 from Haste): 1d8
2 Claws: 1d4
1 Gore: 1d6
1 Bite: 1d6

Not from :

Shifter's Claws wrote:


At will, a shifter in her natural form can extend her claws as a swift action to use as a weapon.
...
While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect‘s major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability. If the form she takes has claw attacks, she can use either the base damage of her shifter claws or the damage of the form’s claws, whichever is greater. If the form does not have claw attacks, she can choose up to two natural attacks that would deal less damage than her shifter claw damage and have those attacks instead deal the same damage

You don't get extra claw attacks in wild shape forms.


@pad300

It's part of the Weretouched archetype.

You forgo the other aspects you get at every fifth level, to unlock a hybrid form when wildshaping.

Weretouched Shifter: Lycanthropic Wild Shape wrote:
At 4th level, when a weretouched uses wild shape, she can assume only the form of an animal of the same type as her lycanthrope aspect. However, instead of assuming a major form, she can assume a hybrid form that mixes the traits of her natural form and the major form of her aspect. While in a hybrid form, she gain a +2 size bonus to her Strength score, a +2 natural armor bonus to her AC, and all of the natural attacks and abilities listed by her major form. A weretouched also counts as being in her natural form for the purpose of determining whether she can extend her shifter claws. A weretouched’s hybrid form is roughly the same size and shape as her natural form, albeit with bestial qualities such as digitigrade legs or shaggy fur, so her equipment does not merge into her new form when she shifts between her natural form and hybrid form. In addition, the size of a weretouched’s hybrid form is the same as the size of her natural form. This otherwise counts as assuming a major form using wild shape.

I lose out on 2 strength and natural armor, but the hybrid form allows me to:

1) use my shifter claws.
2) benefit from use-activated items such as Boots of Speed
3) Wield actual armor

and one major benefit that doesn't concern me

4) can wield and use manufactured weapons

This makes it possible to gain pounce with melee weapons with a 4 lv dip, while gaining other abilities like scent and natural attacks.
It's also an alternative if you want a fly speed on your melee frontliner.

I'm probably gonna try to squeeze in 4 levels of shifter and Planar Wild Shape on most melee builds in the future.
At least until I grow bored of roleplaying another were-bat/tiger/dinosaur.


Wonderstell wrote:


Slim Jim wrote:
2nd BTW: Sliding Dash's Acrobatics check would need to beat a DC of 45 (because it's 10 + opponent CMD, with is 35 in this case).

The answer is that Sliding Dash says that you complete the charge if you fail the check.

I'm interpreting that as a way to avoid the 10 ft charge limitation, but the build could be made Dex-based to reach the skill bonus. It would take a pretty big hit in damage, though.

That's not quite what Sliding Dash says, the full text from AONPRD is:

Sliding Dash (Combat) wrote:

Source Ultimate Intrigue pg. 91

Your seemingly reckless advance becomes an agile strike at the last moment.

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Acrobatics 10 ranks or acrobatic charge class feature, Bluff 3 ranks.

Benefit: When charging, instead of moving to the closest space from which you can attack your target, you can move to the space adjacent to your target and on the other side of it, as long as you move through the closest space from which you can attack the target and through the target’s space to get there. When you move through the target’s space, you must attempt an Acrobatics check with a DC equal to 10 + your opponent’s CMD. Success allows you to move through the target’s space without provoking an attack of opportunity from that target, and when you arrive in the destination space and make your attack, the target is considered flanked for that attack (or the first attack if you have more than one attack on a charge). On a failed check, you instead provoke an attack of opportunity and complete the charge as normal. Whether or not you succeed at the Acrobatics check, you take a –4 penalty to your AC until the start of your turn, instead of the normal –2 penalty.

Normal: When charging, you must end the movement part of a charge in the closest space in which you can attack your target.

Note that it gives a definition of normal afterwards, which suggests that you would not pass through the opponents space, rather ending up on the "near" side of the monster. Which is too short of a distance to have a charge. I can see your interpretation, though.

Mike Schneider, as acting GM, can you make a call on how sliding dash works? I am making a thread in the rules forum as well,

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42c9t?Sliding-Dash

Liberty's Edge

pad300 wrote:
Mike Schneider, as acting GM, can you make a call on how sliding dash works?

Save for the purposes of establishing the scenario, expect that all game mechanics function as they would in PFS (provided they are legal there).

As far as can tell, the feat Sliding Dash exists to permit you get into a more advantageous position on the back side of your target (such as for flanking purposes, or inhibiting its retreat). The phrasing "as long as you move through the closest space from which you can attack the target" implies that you must first have been able to charge your target under normal rules (and then merely delay your attack until you've proceeded further following a successful Acrobatics check to move through the target's square). It doesn't say you can eliminate the required initial 10' of movement, or change directions mid-charge, or charge through allied squares.

Please let us know what the results of your Rules inquiry are.


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@ Slim jim
@ pad300

I gotta say I appreciate all the build critique.
Nothing makes people rip apart your build more than the competitive spririt in a DPR thread!


Sliding Dash seems to be one of those hideous trap-feats that Paizo's neutral-evil writers love dangling in front of players: --In exchange for the delightful "benefit" of separating yourself from your allies to flank the target, you get to be AC-4 while adjacent to the target awaiting its full-attack rebound through your masterwork pincushion armor.

<translated from original monster> "Mmm! Furry outside, chewy center!"


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Don't mind me, just making some space.

@ Slim Jim

Augh.
Yeah, I really doubt I would have ever taken the feat if I didn't think it allowed me to charge someone adjacent.

Also, the prerequisite of having 10 ranks in acrobatics can be circumvented!
...by getting a class feature you can get at lv 12 the soonest.
Which means Sliding Dash will only ever be used after level 10, when the DC is crazy high.

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