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Ping Pong Pong

Concept: In this variant, Ping is not a boozing, brawling barbarian, but an easy-on-the-eyes greenskin druid-type who frolics in the primordial boreal forests and likes her animal companions gigantic and furry! Aw, aren’t they squee! Can’t you see they wuv her?

Gratuitous Gore Footage lovingly filmed in 4K:
Featuring generous dollops of "It doesn't say exactly that!" razor's-edge readings of RAW guaranteed to prompt Smite Player from every GM within earshot....

Mechanics: Buff the monstrous sidekick(s) and contribute weak crits to trigger their humongous Outflank AoO chains.

Attributes at 1st:
STR: 7
DEX: 17
CON: 14 (17,14,14,14,7,7 20pt array)
INT: 7
WIS+ 16
CHA: 14

Traits: Accelerated Drinker(combat), Magical Knack:Hunter(magic)
01 Hunter1 [Primal Companion][Evolution Pool:2], Evolved Companion
02 Hunter2 [Outflank]
03 Hunter3 [hunter tactics][Paired Opportunists], Weapon Finesse
04 Hunter4 [Improved Empathic Link], DEX>18
05 Hunter5 Deific Obedience
06 Evangalist1 [Erastil][Skilled:Use Magic Device]
07 Evangalist2 [Hunter6][Teamwork:Pack Flanking], Boon Companion
08 Evangalist3 [Hunter7], DEX>19
09 Evangalist4 [Hunter8][Twin Fang][Evolution Pool:4], Lunge
10 Mammoth Rider1 [Gigantic Steed]
11 Evangalist5 [Hunter9][Broken Wing Gambit], Combat Reflexes
12 Evangalist6 [Hunter10], DEX>20

50 Handbook of Magical Phrases (MW tool: +2 UMD casting scrolls)
375 scroll of Blood Rage
000 potion of Haste, purchased with two Prestige Points
000 Wayfinder (free as member of the Pathfinder Society)
1000 Shawl of Life-keeping (shoulders)
1500 Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone (cracked: ECB)
1800 Scabbard of Vigor
3000 Ring of Ferocious Action (ring #1)
4000 Headband of Inspired Wisdom
4000 Belt of Incredible Dexterity (DEX+2)
4000 Pale Green Prism (+1 attack)
10000 Quick Action Slippers (feet)
10000 Commander’s Helm (Teamwork: Precise Strike) (head)
18314 Elven Curve Blade (+1/Agile/Keen)
=58039

Animal companion equipment:
50 Masterwork stirrups (MW tool: +2 to fast-mount/dismount checks)
64 saddle (exotic/military) and saddlebags
4000 Amulet of Mighty Fists (Fortuitous)
8350 Tusk Blades (+1/Keen)
36000 Vibrant Purple Prism ioun stone (Strong Jaw)
=50264

Total: 106503

Ping, attributes at 12th with items activated:
dex 22 +6 (17->20, +2 belt)
wis 18 +2 (+2 headband)

Relevant skills:
Ride: +21, +24 while large/raging, +2? fast-mount/dismount
Use Magic Device: +21 (masterwork took, item used before)

Attack bonus:
+9 BAB
+6 strength 12
+3 enhancement (Scabbard of Vigor)
+1 competence (Pale Green Prism)
+1 Haste
+1 higher ground bonus (riding mount larger than opponent)
+4 Outflank
= +25

conditionals:
+4 Paired Opportunists AoO circumstance bonus
+5 Bloody Rage
-4 prone
-2 shaken
-2 sickened
-5 2nd full-attack iterative
-5 Fortuitous penalty

Damage, Elven Curve Blade:
d10+6(Dex)
+3 enhancement (Scabbard of Vigor)
= 14.5
+1d6 Precise Strike (non-critable)
Keen crit confirmation probability: (.3)(.95) = .285
[.95(14.5+3.5[precision])=17.1]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 21.2325 R1, R2 mains & AoOs
[.75(14.5+3.5[precision])=13.5]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 17.6325 R2 iterative
[.80(14.5+3.5[precision])=13.5]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 17.6325 R3 mains & AoOs
[.55(14.5+3.5[precision])=13.5]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 17.6325 R3 iterative/Fortuitous

Pong, base stats:
str 14 > 22 (enlargement at 7th)
dex 12 > 10 (enlargement at 7th)
con 15 > 19 (enlargement at 7th)
int 2
wis 13
cha 3

Companion: huge arsinoitherium (12th)
str 24 (+2 gigantic steed)
dex 14 (-2 gigantic steed penalty, +4 Dex increase)
con 22 (+2 gigantic steed, +1 ability score increase)
int 3 (+1 ability score increase)

Companion: gargantuan arsinoitherium (various buffs)
str 36 (+8 Animal Growth, +4 Aspect of the Wolf)
dex 16 (-2 Animal Growth, +4 Aspect of the Wolf)

Companion: gargantuan arsinoitherium (conditions)
str 46 (+10 Blood Rage morale bonus, Round 2+)
dex 20 (+4 Ability Increase Evolution x2)

Companion feats at 12th (5): Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush, Quick Bull Rush
… + Hunter: Primal Surge: Extra Feat (Forceful Charge)
Teamwork feats shared by Hunter Tactics: Amplified Rage, Outflank, Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunists, Precise Strike

Pong attack bonus (Round 1):
+10 hit dice
+13 strength 36
+3 enhancement (Scabbard of Vigor)
-4 (gargantuan size)
+4 Outflank
Pong attack bonus (Round 2+):
+5 (strength 36>46)
= +26, +31

conditionals:
+8 Bull Rush (+4 Improved/Greater, +4 gargantuan size)
+4 Paired Opportunists AoO circumstance bonus
-3 Power Attack
+2 charge
-5 2nd full-attack iterative
-5 Fortuitous penalty (only -1 including Paired Opportunists)

Gore die: medium:d8, large:2d8, huge:3d8, Animal Growth:4d8*, Strong Jaw:8d8**, evolution(Improved Damage):12d8***

We have one each of:
* an actual size increase
** an effective size change
*** a damage die increase whose context does not allude to size.

Damage, gore:
Round1: 12d8+19(1.5xStr)
Round2: 12d8+27(1.5xStr)
+3(enhancement)
+9(Power Attack)
=R1:85, R2:93
+12d8+27(Powerful Charge)
=174
+1d6 Precise Strike (non-critable)

Pong: keen tusk blade crit confirmation probability: (.2)(.95) = .19
Round 1: [.95(85+3.5[precision])=84.075]+[.19(85)=16.15] = 100.225 (Power Attack)
Round 2+ [.95(93+3.5[precision])=91.675]+[.19(93)=17.67] = 109.345 (Power Attack)
Power [.95(174+3.5[precision])=169.575]+[.19(174)=33.06] = 202.635 (Powerful Charge)
Ping: [.95(14.5+3.5[precision])=17.1]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] =21.2325

Active buffs and abilities (3 intermediate duration):
- Animal Growth (companion)
- Aspect of the Wolf (companion, via share spells)
- Blood Rage (companion, UMD’d scroll)
Active buffs, 8hr+ duration:
- Greater Magic Fang +3 (companion)

1st round action-economy:
- Pong: move:
- Pong: standard action: activate Vibrant Purple Prism ioun stone (Strong Jaw)
- Ping: Swift: Primal Transformation (Pong: Increased Damage, Ability Increase x2)
- Ping: Move: draw weapon while chugging potion of Haste (Accelerated Drinker)
- Ping: Standard: activate Twin Fury for exact duplicate of animal companion.
- Ping: Free: declare Broken Wing Gambit
- Ping: Free: declare Lunge

Ping: 7 AoOs; Pongs: 7 AoOs

Enemy move:
- Enemy moves from 15’-10’ away, triggering AoOs from the Pongs
- Pong1: P1AoO1 from movement, trip, grant Broken Wing Gambit
- Pong2: Paired Opportunists: P2AoO1(.95/trip.05), grant Broken Wing Gambit
- Pong2: P2AoO2 from movement
- Pong1: Paired Opportunists: P1AoO2
- Enemy attacks while prone from 10’ away
- Broken Wing Gambit AoOs from both Pongs: P1AoO3, P2AoO3
- Paired Opportunist AoOs (round-robin): AoO1, P1AoO4, P2AoO4
- Fortuitous AoOs by Pongs: P1AoO5, P2AoO5
- Paired Opportunist AoOs from Fortuitous: AoO2, P1AoO6, P2AoO6
- .94965604955312 chance of at least one crit:
- Paired Opportunist AoOs from Outflank: AoO3, P1AoO7, P2AoO7
- Pongs out of AoOs; Ping residual additional Outflank AoO chances

13 Pong AoOs for damage, unless additional trips needed

[100.225][.95] + [100.225][.9975] + [100.225][.999875] + …
95.21375
99.9744375
100.2134692503125
100.22437359375
+ 9 x 100.225

Round 1 total: 1297.6510303440625

2nd round action-economy:
- Pong2 will go first, Pong1 (mounted) and Ping (rider) go next
- Pong2: grants Broken Wing Gambit, and circles monster to flank
- Enemy AoOs Pong2 movement
- Ping and Pong1 take Broken Wing Gambit AoOs: AoO1, P1AoO1
- Pong2 takes Paired Opportunist AoO: P2AoO2
- Ping and Pong1 take Paired Opportunist AoOs: AoO2, P1AoO2
- Fortuitous AoOs by Pongs: P1AoO3, P2AoO3
- Pong2 finishes move, swift trips; attacks
- Pong1 takes turn (w/trip) for two attacks; grants Broken Wing Gambit
- Ping takes turn for three attacks; grants Broken Wing Gambit
- .96537335934176 chance of at least one crit by this point*
- Outflank AoOs: AoO3, P1AoO4, P2AoO4
- Paired Opportunist AoOs: AoO4, P1AoO5, P2AoO5
- Enemy attacks, triggering Broken Wing Gambit: AoO5, P1AoO6, P2AoO6
- Same .96537335934176 chance of one more crit fills rest of AoOs*

(* Each crit “saves” an AoO for damage by triggering Outflank)

Ping: 8 x 21.2325 + 2 x 17.6325 = 205.125
Pong2: 8 x 109.345 = 874.76
Pong1: 8 x 109.345 + ([.96537335934176]^2)(109.345) = 976.66360507343039

Round 2 total: 2056.54860507343039

[.95](14.5+3.5[precision])=17.1]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 21.2325 R1, R2 mains & AoOs
[.75](14.5+3.5[precision])=13.5]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 17.6325 R2 iterative
[.60](14.5+3.5[precision])=13.5]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 14.9325 R3 prone AoOs
[.80](14.5+3.5[precision])=13.5]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 18.5325 R3 mounted
[.55](14.5+3.5[precision])=13.5]+[.285(14.5)=4.1325] = 14.0325 R3 iterative/Fortuitous
Pong:[.95](93+3.5[precision])=91.675]+[.19(93)=17.67] = 109.345 (Power Attack)
Pong:[.95](174+3.5[precision])=169.575]+[.19(174)=33.06] = 202.635 (Powerful Charge)

Round3 plays out identically to Round 2 except that the enemy is not granted an AoO by movement. Ping has the same odds to achieve crits, but suffers moderate odds of missing non-crits on low numbers. The Folio reroll has been saved for now, meaning only a 0.0125% chance of a bust. The other 99.9875% of the time, the reroll salvages a Pong or Ping attack roll

- Ping delays to go after Pongs
- Pong1 Power/Forceful/Charge/Rush; swift trip, 5-foot step to line up Pong2
- Ping AoO Greater Bull Rush AoO from prone: AoO1 (eschews if foe not tripped)
- Pong1 Paired Opportunist AoO: P1AoO1
- Ping Paired Opportunist: AoO2
- Pong2 Power/Forceful/Charge/Rush; swift trip (if still necessary)
- Ping and Pong1 Greater Bull Rush AoOs: AoO3, P1AoO2
- Pong2 Paired Opportunist AoO: P2AoO1
- Ping and Pong1 Paired Opportunist AoOs: AoO4, P1AoO3
- Ping fast-mounts; takes three attacks
- .97301935014402 chance of at least one crit by this point
- Outflank AoOs: AoO4, P1AoO4, P2AoO2
- Paired Opportunist AoOs: AoO5, P1AoO5(quick bull rush), P2AoO3
- Ping and Pong2 Greater Bull Rush AoOs: AoO6, P1AoO4
- Paired Opportunist AoO: Pong2AoO4
- Fortuitous AoOs (round robin): AoO7, P1AoO5, P2AoO5
- .94021127400805 chance of at least one more crit by this point
- Outflank AoOs: P1AoO6, P2AoO6, (Ping AoO if left-over from non-trip earlier)
- Paired Opportunist AoOs: P1AoO7, P2AoO7, (additional Ping AoO if needed)

Similar to Round 2, there is an infinitesimal-shy of 100% chance that all AoOs are secured by sacrificing attacks for triggering maneuvers if necessary.

Pongs: (2 x 202.635) + (13 x 109.345) = 1826.755
Ping: (2 x 14.9325) + (2 x 14.0325) + (6 x 18.5325) = 169.125

Sub-total: 1826.755 x 0.999875(bust)= 1826.526655625

Reroll salvage Pongs: 0.999875 x 0.51232502088447 x 109.345 = 56.01317688618636
Reroll salvage Ping: ~ (not expected unless a Ping miss after all Pong attacks)

Round 3 total: 1882.53983251118636

Grand Total: 5236


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think you can scratch Lunge from Ping's feat list, since it doesn't give you any benefit between your turns.

*****

About the Vibrant Purple Prism. Relevant FAQ

Quote:
Animal, plant, or vermin companions cannot wield weapons or activate magic items, with two exception.

I had an idea to let my AC carry the cracked version with a casting of Liberating Command, but AC's can only benefit from magic items that give a continuous benefit.

Also, even if it worked it would be a move action for Ping to push Pong.

*****

For anyone wondering how the total damage is so high.

Quote:
2: Twin Fang (Ex) Once per day as a standard action, you can summon an exact double of your animal companion. The double acts and thinks like your animal companion in every way, and obeys your commands just as the original would. Your original animal companion and its double understand and trust each other perfectly. The double remains for 1 round for every Hit Die you possess, and then vanishes. If you don’t have an animal companion, you instead gain the ability to use summon nature’s ally V as a spell-like ability once per day

This gives incredible burst damage for one encounter per day, since Slim Jim already made Pong #1 into a blender.

Unfortunately, this build isn't PFS legal because of a single, simple rule.

You can only have one combat animal active at any time.


A vibrant purple ioun prism stone is just an ioun stone -- if I can train it to activate a pale green or a stat-bumper, I can train it to activate a vibrant purple. BTW, the exact mechanism I used in this build is why either (or both, as I dimly recall) VPPs and Strands of Prayer Beads w/Bead of Karma were banned many years ago in Living Greyhawk (crafting was legal in that campaign, and wizards could dole them out to every BSF in the party to turn battlefields into smoking craters).

Regards Pong, it is only one animal companion; the other exists for only 1 round/level as a consequence of activating our one daily use of Twin Fang, that being granted as part of the otherwise fairly lackluster Evangelist PRC if you choose Erastil as your deity. Basically, it's a full-powered, fully-corporeal Simulacrum of an animal-companion, but of very brief duration.

Good catch on the Lunge, though. ...The immediately obvious (but wrong) replacement solution is a Swordmaster's Flair (2500gp, minus 1500gp for the OWP ioun no longer needed), and exchange the exotic elven curve blade for a regular rapier.Activating Blue Scarf for a minute's worth of reach as a swift, and losing only about 55 points worth of damage due to smaller weapon dice. However, it requires a swift to activate, and even though the current build no longer has Challenge, the swifts have been repurposed for activating Primal Transformation (round 1) and Primal Surge (which I forgot to list in Round2's action economy, though it's mentioned elsewhere).


About the Vibrant Purple Prism wrote:
Relevant FAQ

"...companions with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can activate ioun stones..."

Also fixed the Lunge-is-worthless/missing-reach issue thus: Due to my misreading of Blood Rage (an apparently mostly forgotten but awesome spell from 2010's Orcs of Golarion), which is a 3rd-level spell. This means that its caster level is *5* (not 3), which in turn means it can affect two targets...so both Ping and Pong can partake of the delights!

This means strength is a valuable attribute once again, and we'll swap the Agile/Keen ECB for the trusty Fortuitous/Keen fauchard. Fortuitous means dexterity doesn't have to be as high to keep the same number of AoOs (if we read the RAW that way, and t'would seem a lot of players do), which means point-buy is now more efficiently allocated with an even spread.

Instead of....

Attributes at 1st:
STR: 7
DEX: 17
CON: 14 (17,14,14,14,7,7 20pt array)
INT: 7
WIS+ 16
CHA: 14

...we do:

Attributes at 1st:
STR: 12
DEX: 15
CON: 14 (15,14,14,13,12,8 20pt array)
INT: 8
WIS+ 16
CHA: 13 (a 13 is required for Evolved Companion)

Feats: Weapon Finesse and Lunge are replaced with Power Attack and Additional Traits (for Group Fighter, granting +1 attacks while flanking). When taken-damage triggers Blood Rage halfway through monster turn Round 1, Ping's strength shoots up +10 to 22, and attack bonus is +6 from that attribute (or same as previously from dex). Ping's attack-bonus is otherwise +1 overall due to Group Fighter, with all attacks bring flanks.

Damage goes up, a little.... The d10+6 Agile ECB damage becomes d10+9 fauchard , with Power Attack beckoning....but do we use PA that much given our relatively low attack bonus versus the barbarian/cavalier version? Eh, certainly not in Round 3. Even if Ping Power Attacked in all three rounds and never whiffed, he'd pull down an average increase of (27x9)+(.285)(27x9) = 312.255 damage over the fight relative to the preceding dex-build. Seems like a crazy lot, but any two whiffs will probably cancel out all of the gains once the lost opportunities for Pong follow-ups are factored. So, maybe don't take Power Attack, meaning a feat is available for....something(?), and total damage goes up a touch over 100 points solely due to 1.5x two-handed STR 22 bonus versus the ECB's Agile DEX 22 bonus. Grand Total: 5236 + 104 = 5340 (Recalculating all of Ping's now +1 bonuses to his worse-than-95% attacks is a PITA, so I'll just go with that for now.)

Addendum: swapping CON and STR, and somehow gleaning action-economy to squeeze in a potion of Enlarge Person, would let us rock a strength of 26 and 20' reach, with Power Attack's penalty much more palatable, but the reduced CON in a d8 build means we'd drop before the beginning of Round 3 -- and that'd screw everything up by activating the Shawl of Lifekeeping too early.

Grand Lodge

Don't know how important it is but the scabbard of vigour is a belt slot item now.

Liberty's Edge

A normal-sized person on a gargantuan mount would be like riding a building. How is he getting into the saddle in Round 3?


Slim Jim wrote:
A vibrant purple ioun prism stone is just an ioun stone -- if I can train it to activate a pale green or a stat-bumper, I can train it to activate a vibrant purple.
Slim Jim wrote:
About the Vibrant Purple Prism wrote:
Relevant FAQ
"...companions with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can activate ioun stones..."

Yup, they can activate ioun stones. But that refers to this rule:

Quote:
Ioun stones only float when sent spinning around the head of an intelligent (Int 3+) creature; otherwise they are as inert as common stone.

In PFS play, your companion is too stupid to activate magic items, even though you can reach higher int than the party barbarian. It's justified by the idea that no matter how smart the animal is, it's still an animal. So find a way to make it into a magical beast.

****

Slim Jim wrote:
Due to my misreading of Blood Rage (an apparently mostly forgotten but awesome spell from 2010's Orcs of Golarion), which is a 3rd-level spell. This means that its caster level is *5* (not 3), which in turn means it can affect two targets...so both Ping and Pong can partake of the delights!

Yeah, you can say that again!

That +10 strength looks real juicy. Damn clever way to benefit from the automatic damage.

****

Edit:

You said you had a feat over, and I'm not seeing anything race-specific in your feat selection.
How about going Human->Racial Heritage (Aasimar) and then Celestial Servant?
This would make it a Magical Beast, while you can still treat it as an animal for effects.

8HD -> 10HD (HP increase, not the # of hitdice)
3/4 BAB -> Full BAB
+Darkvision

And can probably benefit from use-activated items, since the FAQ is oddly specific when saying that "Animal, plant, or vermin companions cannot wield weapons or activate magic items".


Wonderstell wrote:
In PFS play, your companion is too stupid to activate magic items
Never leave home without your wayfinder (first one totally free in PFS!).
Quote:
So find a way to make it into a magical beast.
*wink* Yup: Primal Transformation is the sauce.
Quote:
That +10 strength looks real juicy. Damn clever way to benefit from the automatic damage.

Not kidding; high-powered rage without all the work. The minute I saw that, I headed to the lab.

Grandlounge wrote:
Don't know how important it is but the scabbard of vigour is a belt slot item now.

Initially slotless, they became belt-slot, then that was changed back a few years ago. (They're currently listed as slot "none" at Nethys.)

Mike Schneider wrote:
A normal-sized person on a gargantuan mount would be like riding a building. How is he getting into the saddle in Round 3?

I'll have the exotic saddle set either atop/between the arsinoitherium's forking tusks, or below them in a sort of harness (like a ball turret). Arsinoitheriums are a rhino-like creature with a heavy, low-hanging head, and that way I'll always be at the "action" end of the mount.

Even though "facing" hasn't been a thing since 3.0 edition D&D, it's a lot more cool to envision the character as being a gun slung under the chin of an Imperial Walker.


Wonderstell wrote:

Edit:

You said you had a feat over, and I'm not seeing anything race-specific in your feat selection.
How about going Human->Racial Heritage (Aasimar) and then Celestial Servant?
This would make it a Magical Beast, while you can still treat it as an animal for effects.

8HD -> 10HD (HP increase, not the # of hitdice)
3/4 BAB -> Full BAB
+Darkvision

And can probably benefit from use-activated items, since the FAQ is oddly specific when saying that "Animal, plant, or vermin companions cannot wield weapons or activate magic items".

Nevermind, I was thinking of Planar Heritage which isn't PFS legal. You'd have to be a bonafide Aasimar for celestial servant.

****

Slim Jim wrote:
Quote:
So find a way to make it into a magical beast.
*wink* Yup: Primal Transformation is the sauce.

Ooooh. Yeah now it makes sense.

Quote:

Pong attack bonus (Round 1):

+10 hit dice

I see you'd already accounted for it, but when I read it first I thought it was a mistake.

Liberty's Edge

***************
* ~ Next week ~ *
* --> All New <-- *
* ~~ Contest ~~ *
***************


Mike Schneider wrote:

***************

* ~ Next week ~ *
* --> All New <-- *
* ~~ Contest ~~ *
***************

Suggestion: A new thread as well, this one has just gotten way too long.

Liberty's Edge

The current thread is just fine; I don't want to recreate it every time I make a new challenge.

The "last >>" button is only a single click away from the first page, and for those browsing the main forums, hitting "X new" is no ordeal at all.


Isn't there a way to make a thread in which the first post is editable beyond the usual one-hour limit? Anyone know how to do that?

Liberty's Edge

Bueller?


Mike Schneider wrote:

***************

* ~ Next week ~ *
* --> All New <-- *
* ~~ Contest ~~ *
***************

So what happened to the new contest?


Mike Schneider wrote:

***************

* ~ Next week ~ *
* --> All New <-- *
* ~~ Contest ~~ *
***************

Perhaps you could include the opponent's CMD as well?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Perhaps you could include the opponent's CMD as well?

That would be 35, or 30 without the dex bonus.

All checks except attack rolls are made against a DC of 35.
Feinting, Piercing Spell Resistance, Opposed Strength Checks, etc.

The opponent's checks are always 35, too. Their Attacks and most importantly Saving Throws.

Honestly, the absurdly high Spell Resistance and Saving Throws have all but shut casters out of this contest. While martials are facing something in the CR 12-15 range, Casters are facing an opponent with Saves/SR in the CR 21-25 range.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Perhaps you could include the opponent's CMD as well?

That would be 35, or 30 without the dex bonus.

All checks except attack rolls are made against a DC of 35.
Feinting, Piercing Spell Resistance, Opposed Strength Checks, etc.

The opponent's checks are always 35, too. Their Attacks and most importantly Saving Throws.

Honestly, the absurdly high Spell Resistance and Saving Throws have all but shut casters out of this contest. While martials are facing something in the CR 12-15 range, Casters are facing an opponent with Saves/SR in the CR 21-25 range.

Is that official? Did Mike Schneider say so, or is that a common convention, so I can safely assume it?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Perhaps you could include the opponent's CMD as well?

That would be 35, or 30 without the dex bonus.

All checks except attack rolls are made against a DC of 35.
Feinting, Piercing Spell Resistance, Opposed Strength Checks, etc.

The opponent's checks are always 35, too. Their Attacks and most importantly Saving Throws.

Honestly, the absurdly high Spell Resistance and Saving Throws have all but shut casters out of this contest. While martials are facing something in the CR 12-15 range, Casters are facing an opponent with Saves/SR in the CR 21-25 range.

Is that official? Did Mike Schneider say so, or is that a common convention, so I can safely assume it?

Oops. Found it.

Mike Schneider wrote:
Your turn: Take a full action. You are at the edge of the opponent's reach, and it threatens. Any check you make against it is versus opposed 35 (skill, CMD, whatever). There is no difficult terrain or nearby cover.

Thanks, Wonder.


I have a character build that would be devastating against such an opponent.

I combine Greater Grapple with Expert Captor. Greater Grapple lets you make 2 Grapple Checks/round to harm your opponent, 1 as a Standard Action, the other as a Move Action. The rules for grappling says that once Grappling is initiated, subsequent successful grapple checks allow you to apply those other effects to your opponent: Move, Damage, Pin, and Tie Up.

The Level 2 Ability granted to Cavaliers of the Order of the Penitent is Expert Captor, which allows you to Tie Up an opponent whom you have Grappled. They don’t have to be Pinned, and you don’t take the -10 you normally do.

Success requires 2 successful subsequent Attack Rolls—Grapple Checks—against a CMD of 35, but I found it quite possible to get a GMB of 40 spending less than 30,000 of the 110,000 allowed. That means success unless I roll a 1. That means a 90.25% chance of ending the encounter regardless of opponent hit points in 1 round.

The essentials:
Half Orc
St 18: the 15 goes here, so does the +2 Racial Mod and one of the +1s every 4 levels.
Dex 16: The 14 goes here, so do the other 2 +1s.

The rest of the abilities get the 12s

I’m giving this character a lot of levels in a lot of classes. The plurality go into Alchemist with the Grenadier Archetype. When she isn’t Grappling, she shoots Exploding Arrows from her Gravitied Orc Hornbow. Exploding Arrows are cool. She has Keen Scent and Blind Fighting, so she is effective while Blinded. She might carry an Eversmoking Bottle, Blinding everyone within 20’, giving her a 50% Miss Chance. She would suffer a 25% due to Blind Fighting (She gets a reroll). She also can take the Stalwart Feat, letting her use Combat Expertise for DR.

So,
BAB: +9
St: +4
Improved Grapple: +2
Greater Grapple: +2
King Crab Tumor Familiar: +2
Tentacle: +4
Coordinated Maneuvers (Tactician, 1 round to Prepare, Standard Action): +2
Freebooter’s Bane (1 round to prepare, Move Action): +1
Strength Mutagen (long term buff in effect): +2 (+4 Alchemal Bonus to St)
Enlarge Person (medium term buff in effect): +2 (+2 CMB, -1 Attack, +2 St)
Armbands of the Brawler: +1, 500gp
Gauntlets of the Skilled Manever: +2, 4000gp
Brawler Armor Enchantment, +2, 17,000gp (+1, +3eq +1000gp for Darkleaf Cloth Lamellar Leather)
Belt of St +2, +1, 4000gp
Ioun Stone, Green Prism, Cracked: +1, 4000gp

So, that’s +37. I needed +33.

She would take
2 levels in Fighter
1 level in Ranger
1 levels in Monk
2 levels in Cavalier, and
6 levels in Alchemist


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, that’s +37. I needed +33.

I think you got the exact amount actually. You need to carry the rope if you want to tie them up, so you'll get the -4 penalty for grappling without two free hands. Grabbing Style or two levels of Verdant Grappler Brawler (stacks with Strangler) would help you avoid that penalty, though.

Also, while save-or-die effects, grappling and dirty trick masters are very viable for normal play, this thread was made for one purpose and one purpose alone.

Overkill Damage Per Round.

The leading build at the moment goes nova and deals 5340 dmg over the three rounds explained in the challenge, with 2050 dmg during round 2 being the highest DPR.

So your build has ended the encounter, but it hasn't dealt any damage which is what this challenge is all about.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, that’s +37. I needed +33.

I think you got the exact amount actually. You need to carry the rope if you want to tie them up, so you'll get the -4 penalty for grappling without two free hands. Grabbing Style or two levels of Verdant Grappler Brawler (stacks with Strangler) would help you avoid that penalty, though.

Also, while save-or-die effects, grappling and dirty trick masters are very viable for normal play, this thread was made for one purpose and one purpose alone.

Overkill Damage Per Round.

The leading build at the moment goes nova and deals 5340 dmg over the three rounds explained in the challenge, with 2050 dmg during round 2 being the highest DPR.

So your build has ended the encounter, but it hasn't dealt any damage which is what this challenge is all about.

I could also spend an extra 1000gp and get a Robe of Infinite Twine, which will let my character whip out 10' of Rope as a Swift Action.

Although, I don't think that -4 penalty applies by RAW. But that question is academic: not relevant to the thread, since, as you pointed out, I have bonus to spare and there is an easy remedy, and I have treasure to spare, too.

You know I am the sort of person to bring a donkey to a horse race, especially if it's a race to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and back out again....

5340 Damage is very impressive! What page on this thread is it on?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
5340 Damage is very impressive! What page on this thread is it on?

Top of this page. After some minor changes, Slim Jim ended up with the total of 5340 damage.

His highest DPR should be just short of 2100, which is quite the hurdle for new contestants to measure up against.

*

If the contest started up again, I'd prefer it had some new rules implemented so that the builds also had to be viable to play.

Like minimum saves allowed, no buffing done that can't be supplied by the character themselves, not spending more than a fixed amount on consumables, and maybe a "re-match" after the first rounds to see how the builds hold up after they've gone Nova.

Liberty's Edge

pad300 wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:

***************

* ~ Next week ~ *
* --> All New <-- *
* ~~ Contest ~~ *
***************
So what happened to the new contest?

It is currently stewing in a Notepad document that I'll dig up later today. At the time (back in November), it looked like a combination of website crashes and PF2 seemingly killing interest in PF1 might render it all a moot point, so it got delayed.

Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Perhaps you could include the opponent's CMD as well?
All checks except attack rolls are made against a DC of 35. Feinting, Piercing Spell Resistance, Opposed Strength Checks, etc. The opponent's checks are always 35, too. Their Attacks and most importantly Saving Throws. Honestly, the absurdly high Spell Resistance and Saving Throws have all but shut casters out of this contest. While martials are facing something in the CR 12-15 range, Casters are facing an opponent with Saves/SR in the CR 21-25 range.

While I stipulate that I may have absent-mindedly responded in the affirmative somewhere over the course of nine pages, the monsters have never been listed as possessing spell resistance in the posts establishing challenges.

Quote:
Also, while save-or-die effects, grappling and dirty trick masters are very viable for normal play, this thread was made for one purpose and one purpose alone. Overkill Damage Per Round. The leading build at the moment goes nova and deals 5340 dmg over the three rounds explained in the challenge, with 2050 dmg during round 2 being the highest DPR. So your build has ended the encounter, but it hasn't dealt any damage which is what this challenge is all about.
The primary reason Slim Jim's last build was able to do so much is that, while mainly martially minded, it was only of the few submitted so far to contain a significant number of spellcasting levels, and enough to trip the extra-granted-buff mechanism the challenge had in place, then figure out how to triple everything he had going by duplicating his monster sidekick.
Quote:
If the contest started up again, I'd prefer it had some new rules implemented so that the builds also had to be viable to play. Like minimum saves allowed, no buffing done that can't be supplied by the character themselves, not spending more than a fixed amount on consumables, and maybe a "re-match" after the first rounds to see how the builds hold up after they've gone Nova.

Characters will take damage and make saves in the next challenge, so decent saves and hitpoints will be necessary. WBL and consumable cost has been established previously (they have occasionally been slightly stretched by some contestants in order to demonstrate a cool thing that required just a teensy bit more).


Mike Schneider wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:

***************

* ~ Next week ~ *
* --> All New <-- *
* ~~ Contest ~~ *
***************
So what happened to the new contest?

It is currently stewing in a Notepad document that I'll dig up later today. At the time (back in November), it looked like a combination of website crashes and PF2 seemingly killing interest in PF1 might render it all a moot point, so it got delayed.

Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Perhaps you could include the opponent's CMD as well?
All checks except attack rolls are made against a DC of 35. Feinting, Piercing Spell Resistance, Opposed Strength Checks, etc. The opponent's checks are always 35, too. Their Attacks and most importantly Saving Throws. Honestly, the absurdly high Spell Resistance and Saving Throws have all but shut casters out of this contest. While martials are facing something in the CR 12-15 range, Casters are facing an opponent with Saves/SR in the CR 21-25 range.

While I stipulate that I may have absent-mindedly responded in the affirmative somewhere over the course of nine pages, the monsters have never been listed as possessing spell resistance in the posts establishing challenges.

Quote:
Also, while save-or-die effects, grappling and dirty trick masters are very viable for normal play, this thread was made for one purpose and one purpose alone. Overkill Damage Per Round. The leading build at the moment goes nova and deals 5340 dmg over the three rounds explained in the challenge, with 2050 dmg during round 2 being the highest DPR. So your build has ended the encounter, but it hasn't dealt any damage which is what this challenge is all about.
The primary reason Slim Jim's last build was able to do so much is that, while mainly martially minded, it was only of the few submitted so far to contain a significant number of spellcasting levels, and enough to trip the extra-granted-buff mechanism the challenge had in place, then figure out how to...

So, Mike,

How would you rate a build like the one I just offered: a 90% chance of Tying Up the monster in question, but as Wonder pointed out, a DPR of 0?

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
How would you rate a build like the one I just offered: a 90% chance of Tying Up the monster in question, but as Wonder pointed out, a DPR of 0?

It would be rated "boring". The audience pays for gore, and you're not providing the buckets of blood that they crave. Much booing and throwing of litter will commence.

We spectacle organizers have to keep things exciting, so there are no prizes for 0 DPR.


Oh cool, I gave up on my phantasmal killer build when someone suggested that they'd need to beat 35 SR as well, it didn't look doable to do that at the same time as crushing those saves.

Though the audience might not be impressed by insignificant damage followed by the monster screaming and keeling over stone dead.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Quote:
How would you rate a build like the one I just offered: a 90% chance of Tying Up the monster in question, but as Wonder pointed out, a DPR of 0?

It would be rated "boring". The audience pays for gore, and you're not providing the buckets of blood that they crave. Much booing and throwing of litter will commence.

We spectacle organizers have to keep things exciting, so there are no prizes for 0 DPR.

Well, if the battle were boring, it would also be over with quick. Unless it were only the beginning. Once she has her victim all tied up, what does she do next? ...


Quote:
While I stipulate that I may have absent-mindedly responded in the affirmative somewhere over the course of nine pages, the monsters have never been listed as possessing spell resistance in the posts establishing challenges.

Maybe not explicitly, but if we're talking about checks and then list "resistance" I don't think it could be anything but SR since you don't make checks against Energy Resistance.

Page 3 and 6 challenge rules wrote:
Any check you make against it is versus opposed 35 (skills, CMD, resistance, whatever).

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Looking over Slim Jim's build, I'm a little confused as to how Pack Flanking is being qualified for. What am I missing?


Peevenator wrote:
Looking over Slim Jim's build, I'm a little confused as to how Pack Flanking is being qualified for. What am I missing?

Hm. Can't say I see anything obvious. Might be a mistake.

Luckily it won't matter much because the updated build used one feat for Additional Traits, increasing Ping's flank bonus by one.
So that one can easily be switched out for Combat Expertise.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

We still run into the Int 13 issue.


Ah, right.
My DPR builds always ends up with some level of brawler so I just completely forgot that was a thing.


Wonderstell wrote:
Peevenator wrote:
Looking over Slim Jim's build, I'm a little confused as to how Pack Flanking is being qualified for. What am I missing?

Hm. Can't say I see anything obvious. Might be a mistake.

Luckily it won't matter much because the updated build used one feat for Additional Traits, increasing Ping's flank bonus by one. So that one can easily be switched out for Combat Expertise.

Due to Int of 8, and generally not using Power Attack with the Ping character (I didn't even include PA in the arithmetic because its inclusion was an afterthought after getting rid of Lunge in the retweak), I'd chuck that for Dirty Fighting to be Pack Flanking kosher.

(Does anyone have a 1st printing physical copy of the Advanced Class Guide? ...I'm wondering if Pack Flanking flanking always had Combat Expertise as a prerequisite, or if it's a case of one of those "stealth updates" where the wording changes overnight on d20pfsrd and Nethys. Or it's just my stegosaurus walnut-brain that blocked it out.)


Pack flanking requiring combat expertise and so 13 Int on a hunter is an old complaint, though I don't have a hard copy to date it. Dirty fighting doesn't help in this case since there's no improved combat maneuver prereq - it only applies then, not in all cases where combat expertise is involved.


Slim Jim wrote:
375 scroll of Blood Rage

How do you compute the effectiveness of the Blood Rage Spell? It functions off of the enemy damaging you, and I didn't see any data on the monster's Attack Bonus nor Damage/Attack.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Slim Jim wrote:
(Does anyone have a 1st printing physical copy of the Advanced Class Guide? ...I'm wondering if Pack Flanking flanking always had Combat Expertise as a prerequisite, or if it's a case of one of those "stealth updates" where the wording changes overnight on d20pfsrd and Nethys. Or it's just my stegosaurus walnut-brain that blocked it out.)

It has always been there. I first made my hunter during playtest, prior to the release of the feat. I had to do some finagling to get it as rebuilding wasn't an option.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
375 scroll of Blood Rage
How do you compute the effectiveness of the Blood Rage Spell? It functions off of the enemy damaging you, and I didn't see any data on the monster's Attack Bonus nor Damage/Attack.

Here you go, the latest establishing of the challenge on page 6.

It hits with an Attack roll of 35, and deals 35 dmg. I think it was stated that you automatically take 35 dmg between each turn, but maybe it could be avoided if you manage to get 36 AC and still have competitive DPR.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
375 scroll of Blood Rage
How do you compute the effectiveness of the Blood Rage Spell? It functions off of the enemy damaging you, and I didn't see any data on the monster's Attack Bonus nor Damage/Attack.

Here you go, the latest establishing of the challenge on page 6.

It hits with an Attack roll of 35, and deals 35 dmg. I think it was stated that you automatically take 35 dmg between each turn, but maybe it could be avoided if you manage to get 36 AC and still have competitive DPR.

Thank you. I think I remember reading that when it was posted, now that I see it.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
375 scroll of Blood Rage
How do you compute the effectiveness of the Blood Rage Spell? It functions off of the enemy damaging you, and I didn't see any data on the monster's Attack Bonus nor Damage/Attack.

Here you go, the latest establishing of the challenge on page 6.

It hits with an Attack roll of 35, and deals 35 dmg. I think it was stated that you automatically take 35 dmg between each turn, but maybe it could be avoided if you manage to get 36 AC and still have competitive DPR.

Thank you. I think I remember reading that when it was posted, now that I see it.

Yup, I just found it I posted my Grappling build on this thread a year ago. I guess you can keep me amused when I'm old by telling me a joke when I'm young!


Slim Jim wrote:
+12d8 Powerful Charge

How does Powerful Charge add 12d8 damage?! It adds Damage, but I don’t see where it does Double Damage!

Powerful Charge wrote:
The attack and amount of damage from the attack is given in the creature’s description.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
+12d8 Powerful Charge

How does Powerful Charge add 12d8 damage?! It adds Damage, but I don’t see where it does Double Damage!

Powerful Charge wrote:
The attack and amount of damage from the attack is given in the creature’s description.

That would reckon the Arsinotherium's Powerful Charge at +2d8, assuming Slim Jim's assessment of a base Gore Damage of 2d8. d20pfsrd seems to have a typo here.

I'm getting a DPR of more like 600. Really awesome, but certainly not in the thousands.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
5340 Damage is very impressive! What page on this thread is it on?

Top of this page. After some minor changes, Slim Jim ended up with the total of 5340 damage.

His highest DPR should be just short of 2100, which is quite the hurdle for new contestants to measure up against.

*

If the contest started up again, I'd prefer it had some new rules implemented so that the builds also had to be viable to play.

Like minimum saves allowed, no buffing done that can't be supplied by the character themselves, not spending more than a fixed amount on consumables, and maybe a "re-match" after the first rounds to see how the builds hold up after they've gone Nova.

Well, you know, Wonderstell, the highest DPR ever offered on any of these threads was offered by me. I found a build feature that created a Free Action Attack loop, allowing for Infinite Damage. It's illegal now.

Infinity Damage! I win at D&D!!!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Well, you know, Wonderstell, the highest DPR ever offered on any of these threads was offered by me. I found a build feature that created a Free Action Attack loop, allowing for Infinite Damage. It's illegal now.

Infinity Damage! I win at D&D!!!

Hah, you think that's impressive? Well look at me winning at D&D just by taking a trait!

Wolf Cub wrote:
Your body has clumps of ugly fur, a sure sign of wolf blood! You win! Once per day as a standard action, you can take a deep breath through your nose to gain the scent ability for 1 minute.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Well, you know, Wonderstell, the highest DPR ever offered on any of these threads was offered by me. I found a build feature that created a Free Action Attack loop, allowing for Infinite Damage. It's illegal now.

Infinity Damage! I win at D&D!!!

Hah, you think that's impressive? Well look at me winning at D&D just by taking a trait!

Wolf Cub wrote:
Your body has clumps of ugly fur, a sure sign of wolf blood! You win! Once per day as a standard action, you can take a deep breath through your nose to gain the scent ability for 1 minute.

Oh, that's really cool. In my build, I was getting Scent through a Half-Orc Feat, then Blind Fighting through another. With that, I can spend the 2 Feats to get Improved Blind Fighting. Of course, by level 10, I could probably get Blindsight through some kind of Magic Item. Thanks for the tip, man!


Hah, you're welcome!

But I was referring to the text of the trait that literally says "You win!" ;)


Wonderstell wrote:

Hah, you're welcome!

But I was referring to the text of the trait that literally says "You win!" ;)

So, what's your take on Powerful Charge? Slim Jim seems to attribute double damage to Powerful Charge, "+12d8", but my take on the rules doesn't give me that impression.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, what's your take on Powerful Charge? Slim Jim seems to attribute double damage to Powerful Charge, "+12d8", but my take on the rules doesn't give me that impression.

I went 0-for-3 in Rules thread inquiries last year trying to get to the bottom of it.

Like in also whether or not the Fortuitous weapon property grants an additional threat to your total allotment sans needing Combat Reflexes. (I never thought it did, but various and sundry hereabouts maintain it does.)

As is easy to infer now, the devs were all working on PF2 behind closed doors, and didn't have time for off-the-beaten-path FAQ rulings.


Taking a closer look on the action economy of Ping Pong Pong, I found that you've probably misunderstood how Paired Opportunist works.

Example Round 1:
Enemy move:
- Enemy moves from 15’-10’ away, triggering AoOs from the Pongs
- Pong1: P1AoO1 from movement, trip, grant Broken Wing Gambit
- Pong2: Paired Opportunists: P2AoO1(.95/trip.05), grant Broken Wing Gambit
- Pong2: P2AoO2 from movement
- Pong1: Paired Opportunists: P1AoO2
- Enemy attacks while prone from 10’ away
- Broken Wing Gambit AoOs from both Pongs: P1AoO3, P2AoO3
- Paired Opportunist AoOs (round-robin): AoO1, P1AoO4, P2AoO4
- Fortuitous AoOs by Pongs: P1AoO5, P2AoO5
- Paired Opportunist AoOs from Fortuitous: AoO2, P1AoO6, P2AoO6
- .94965604955312 chance of at least one crit:
- Paired Opportunist AoOs from Outflank: AoO3, P1AoO7, P2AoO7
- Pongs out of AoOs; Ping residual additional Outflank AoO chances

13 Pong AoOs for damage, unless additional trips needed

How Paired Opportunist really works:
Enemy move:

1.
- Enemy moves from 15’-10’ away, triggering AoOs from the Pongs
- Pong1: P1AoO1 from movement, trip, grant Broken Wing Gambit

- Pong2: Paired Opportunists: P2AoO1(.95/trip.05), grant Broken Wing Gambit
- Pong2: P2AoO2 from movement
- Pong1: Paired Opportunists: P1AoO2

You are not allowed more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action. Since Pong2 would already be given an AoO from movement, Paired Opportunist wouldn't give Pong2 another AoO.
The action which trigger is "movement", so even if you place the two Pongs in a situation where the enemy provokes at different squares, you still won't get more AoOs.

2.
- Broken Wing Gambit AoOs from both Pongs: P1AoO3, P2AoO3
- Paired Opportunist AoOs (round-robin): AoO1, P1AoO4, P2AoO4

While I'm not sure what "round-robin" means, the Pongs have already taken their Broken Wing Gambit AoOs.

3.
- Fortuitous AoOs by Pongs: P1AoO5, P2AoO5
- Paired Opportunist AoOs from Fortuitous: AoO2, P1AoO6, P2AoO6

It's still the same action, so Fortuitous doesn't give more attacks through Paired Opportunist.

4.
- .94965604955312 chance of at least one crit:
- Paired Opportunist AoOs from Outflank: AoO3, P1AoO7, P2AoO7

As long as you don't count them twice.

*****

So instead of 13 Pong AoOs for damage, you end up with 7. So the damage of Round 1 should be at least 500 lower than expected (not counting other ways you might have used those extra AoOs you now have).


Wonderstell wrote:
So instead of 13 Pong AoOs for damage, you end up with 7.

Also, how many Attacks of Opportunity can the Pongs even get considering their Dexterity and Combat Reflexes? The arsinotherium starts out with a Dex of 10. Aspect of the Wolf gives them a +4 Dex, and then the Dex goes up 3 points through level progression of Animal Companions. That brings it up to 15, 16, if I missed something. So that's 4 AoOs/round.

What else did I miss?

Also, would increasing the Size to Huge lower the Dex by 2 points?

Edit: 10 base, +3 levels, -2Size, +4 Aspect of the Wolf = 15, right?

That's a Dex Mod of +2, so 3 AoOs/companion/round.

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