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10 + 4 enhancement + 2 ability score increases + 4 animal companion str/dex bonus = 20

Probably -2 = 18 for going from large to huge, depending on how that was done.


avr wrote:

10 + 4 enhancement + 2 ability score increases + 4 animal companion str/dex bonus = 20

Probably -2 = 18 for going from large to huge, depending on how that was done.

I apologize, but what are the sources of ability score increases for Pong? I don't understand Animal Companions very well. I've seen--from long, bitter experience--an AC as just something for the GM to kill when he doesn't want to kill you.


Here's the ability score adjustments to Pong's Dexterity as I've managed to understand it. Starting Dex 12.

Penalties:
7th-level advancement: -2
Gigantic Steed (Huge): -2
Animal Growth: -2

Bonuses:
Aspect of the Wolf: +4
Ability Increase Evolution x2: +4
Unspecified bonus: +4

Dex Mod: +4 (or +2)

So with Fortuitous that's a total of either four or six AoOs per Pong.

=========

Since Pong only has 10 hit dice, it hasn't gotten its third level increase yet. The first was spent on Intelligence and the second on Constitution.


It reads to me like Paired Opportunist is meant to AoO charging, spring attacking, and similar opponents.

However, the only provokes 1 time is a per enemy thing. So moving past 2 enemies would provoke 2 attacks for the same action, moving past 3 would provoke 3 attacks.


Temperans wrote:

It reads to me like Paired Opportunist is meant to AoO charging, spring attacking, and similar opponents.

However, the only provokes 1 time is a per enemy thing. So moving past 2 enemies would provoke 2 attacks for the same action, moving past 3 would provoke 3 attacks.

Can't tell if you're refuting or agreeing with my previous post. Sounds like you're agreeing with me?

Slim Jim had the Pongs take two AoOs each for the one action of moving closer, which is a scenario forbidden by the feat.

Paired Opportunist wrote:
This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.


I want to crunch this all out: bear with me, please.

Wonderstell wrote:
Here's the ability score adjustments to Pong's Dexterity as I've managed to understand it. Starting Dex 12.

Shouldn't the starting Dex be 10?

Stats on Arsinotherium

When I go d20pfsrd's Animal Companion page is half-blocked with ads, and I didn't see the Ability Score increases until just now. +2 by level 10, and Pong reaches level 11. In addition, the Strength and Dex go up by level 10 by +3. So, that's a 15 Dex.

Wonderstell wrote:

Penalties:

7th-level advancement: -2

What's this? A penalty to Dex due to size increase?

Wonderstell wrote:
Gigantic Steed (Huge): -2

An Arsinotherium starts at Size Large and becomes Size Huge. That's a Size increase. So, now the Dex is down to 13?

Wonderstell wrote:
Animal Growth: -2

Dex 11?

Wonderstell wrote:

Bonuses:

Aspect of the Wolf: +4
Ability Increase Evolution x2: +4

Okay, I missed the Ability Increase Evolution. That brings it back up to 19.

Wonderstell wrote:
Unspecified bonus: +4

Well, gee wizz, that needs to be specified!

Wonderstell wrote:

Dex Mod: +4 (or +2)

So with Fortuitous that's a total of either four or six AoOs per Pong.

I'm getting a Dex Mod of +4 as well, but that means 5 AoOs/round/Pong.

"Wonderstell wrote:
Since Pong only has 10 hit dice, it hasn't gotten its third level increase yet. The first was spent on Intelligence and the second on Constitution.

"Level Increase means "Ability Score Increase"? I assumed he already spent both on Dexterity. If he spent neither on Dex, then that brings it down to 17 for a Dex Mod of +3 for 4 AoOs/round. Jim should really have put 1 in Dex for an 18, meaning +4 and 5 AoOs/round.

I think we're mostly on the same page, here. I didn't even police his Attack of Opportunity Triggers in his round. My calculations assumed he just got them.

Meanwhile, while I understand the rationale behind assigning a +12d8 bonus due to Powerful Charge, I am not at all sure that is legit, and my reading of the rules is that it isn't, although I can see that being a possible, valid interpretation. And while I understand the frustration with Paizo's slow response to rules inquiries and therefor see Slim Jim's Powerful Charge bonus with the glow of schadenfreude giving me the Dazzled Condition, for the purposes of this thread, I think this aspect of the build needs an asterix pending the OP's ruling.


Wonderstell wrote:
Temperans wrote:

It reads to me like Paired Opportunist is meant to AoO charging, spring attacking, and similar opponents.

However, the only provokes 1 time is a per enemy thing. So moving past 2 enemies would provoke 2 attacks for the same action, moving past 3 would provoke 3 attacks.

Can't tell if you're refuting or agreeing with my previous post. Sounds like you're agreeing with me?

Slim Jim had the Pongs take two AoOs each for the one action of moving closer, which is a scenario forbidden by the feat.

Paired Opportunist wrote:
This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.

I am agreeing with you, stating how paired opportunist would help, and stating how you don't need it for normal movement/provoking.


Scott, animal companions get a bonus to Str and Dex which scales with level and which doesn't have a name other than 'Str/Dex bonus'. At this level it's +4. There's a table which tells you how many HD etc. an animal companion has at each level and the Str/Dex bonus is given there.


avr wrote:
Scott, animal companions get a bonus to Str and Dex which scales with level and which doesn't have a name other than 'Str/Dex bonus'. At this level it's +4. There's a table which tells you how many HD etc. an animal companion has at each level and the Str/Dex bonus is given there.

Oh, duh. How'd I miss that?

*

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I'm getting a Dex Mod of +4 as well, but that means 5 AoOs/round/Pong.

The Fortuitous weapon ability gives you another AoO at a -5 penalty once per round, which is taken at the same time as another AoO.

So 6 AoOs/round/Pong.


Wonderstell wrote:
avr wrote:
Scott, animal companions get a bonus to Str and Dex which scales with level and which doesn't have a name other than 'Str/Dex bonus'. At this level it's +4. There's a table which tells you how many HD etc. an animal companion has at each level and the Str/Dex bonus is given there.
Oh, duh. How'd I miss that?

I saw that as a +3

Slim Jim wrote:
12 Evangalist6 [Hunter10]

+ 1 level in Mammoth Hunter = 11

This chart says the ST/DEX Bonus is +3 at level 11. Is d20pfsrd wrong? Is Slim Jim wrong?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I'm getting a Dex Mod of +4 as well, but that means 5 AoOs/round/Pong.
Wonderstell wrote:

The Fortuitous weapon ability gives you another AoO at a -5 penalty once per round, which is taken at the same time as another AoO.

So 6 AoOs/round/Pong.

Okay, I wasn't counting that.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
avr wrote:
Scott, animal companions get a bonus to Str and Dex which scales with level and which doesn't have a name other than 'Str/Dex bonus'. At this level it's +4. There's a table which tells you how many HD etc. an animal companion has at each level and the Str/Dex bonus is given there.
Oh, duh. How'd I miss that?

I saw that as a +3

Slim Jim wrote:
12 Evangalist6 [Hunter10]

+ 1 level in Mammoth Hunter = 11

This chart says the ST/DEX Bonus is +3 at level 11. Is d20pfsrd wrong? Is Slim Jim wrong?

You are completely right that the bonus would be +3 at level 11 (more so than me that completely missed the level bonus), but Slim Jim did take Boon Companion at level 7 to boost Pong's effective level back to 12.

So the Dex/Str bonus is at +4.

I'd like for Slim Jim to redo his build with a new point buy and updated action economy, as Paired Opportunist doesn't work that way and Pong has 2 less dexterity than his estimated total. Then we could end the third challenge and officially crown his build the winner.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
avr wrote:
Scott, animal companions get a bonus to Str and Dex which scales with level and which doesn't have a name other than 'Str/Dex bonus'. At this level it's +4. There's a table which tells you how many HD etc. an animal companion has at each level and the Str/Dex bonus is given there.
Oh, duh. How'd I miss that?

I saw that as a +3

Slim Jim wrote:
12 Evangalist6 [Hunter10]

+ 1 level in Mammoth Hunter = 11

This chart says the ST/DEX Bonus is +3 at level 11. Is d20pfsrd wrong? Is Slim Jim wrong?

You are completely right that the bonus would be +3 at level 11 (more so than me that completely missed the level bonus), but Slim Jim did take Boon Companion at level 7 to boost Pong's effective level back to 12.

So the Dex/Str bonus is at +4.

I'd like for Slim Jim to redo his build with a new point buy and updated action economy, as Paired Opportunist doesn't work that way and Pong has 2 less dexterity than his estimated total. Then we could end the third challenge and officially crown his build the winner.

Well, Slim Jim,

We all seem to thing you are onto something. We all have found rules-based problems with your build, though. Understandable, since it is so complicated, we are all making mistakes and overlooking things as we try to examine your build. I am with Wonderstell on this. I would also like you to edit your build. The rules don't seem to allow for the results you are getting, but it also looks like you might have struck upon the winning combination.

Would it be possible to edit your submission to make it easier to understand?


@ Mike Schneider

Is the new challenge coming any time soon?

I managed to create my Magnum Opus, but it seems unfair to knock down Ping Pong Pong now after it technically ended the challenge back in November.

Liberty's Edge

Yes. It's actually ready to go but I'm on vacation at the moment and didn't want to be bombarded for clarifications. It'll keep the same three-round structure, but there's a twist to it (which I wont reveal right now). The combat, as promised, with be "entirely new" (no previous contest's builds will be remotely effective); ranged combatants will love it.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Mike Schneider wrote:
Yes. It's actually ready to go but I'm on vacation at the moment and didn't want to be bombarded for clarifications. It'll keep the same three-round structure, but there's a twist to it (which I wont reveal right now). The combat, as promised, with be "entirely new" (no previous contest's builds will be remotely effective); ranged combatants will love it.

Hm, sounds like I should post my build before it's too late, then.

Race and traits:
Human
Str 17+3, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 7
(Str: +3 Level increase)

Racial Traits:
Bonus Feat
Heart of the Fey

Traits:
Adopted->Bitter Heart (+2 to Confirm crits)
Fate’s Favored

***

Levels and Feats:
Brawler 2
1. Martial Flexibility, Combat Expertise, Improved Reposition (H), IUS (B)
2. Brawler’s Flurry, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (B)

Mutation Warrrior Fighter 9
3. Power Attack, Improved Drag (B)
4. Feral Combat Training (Unarmed Strike) (B)
5. Mutagen, Crashing Wave Style
6. Crashing Wave Buffet (B)
7. Weapon Training, Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training)
8. Improved Critical (Urumi) (B)
9. Wings, Repositioning Strike
10. Crashing Wave Fist (B)
11. AWT: Weapon Sacrifice, Critical Focus

Foundation of Faith Cleric (Desna) 1
12. Bastion, Luck Domain, Freedom Subdomain

FCB (Fighter): +9 to CMD vs Grapple / Dirty Trick

***

Magic Items:
Offensive:
+1, Repositioning Urumi (32,300)
Belt of Impossible Action (16,000)
Gloves of Dueling (15,000)
Proficiency ioun stone (1500)

Defensive:
Rod of Escape (15,000)
Amulet of the Blooded-Fey (10,000)
Headband of Fortune’s Favor (7,700)
+2 Cloak of Resistance (4000)

+1 Full Plate (2,750)
+1 Ring of Protection (2000)
+1 Buckler (1,150)

Consumables:
Wand of CLW (750)
Alchemical Grease x10 (50)
Smelling Salts x4 (100)

108.3 / 110

***

Offense:
Attack Bonus (Urumi): 11 (BAB) + 7 (Str+Mutagen) + 1 (Enhancement) +4 (Weapon Training) +2 (Divine Favor) -2 (Flurry) +1 (Martial Versatility: Weapon Focus)
= +24/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+14, 15-20/x2)
+6 to Confirm Crits

Reposition CMB: 11 (BAB) + 7 (Str+Mutagen) + 2 (Enhancement) +4 (Weapon Training) +2 (Imp Reposition) +2 (Divine Favor) +1 (Martial Versatility: Weapon Focus)
= 29

Special
Laughing Touch (3/day): 11 (BAB) +7 (Str+Mutagen) +2 (Divine Favor)
= 20

***

Defense:
HP: 93

AC 26
10 + 10 (Armor) +1 (Dex) +2 (Natural) +2 (Shield) +1 (Deflection)

CMD 33
+18 vs Disarm (Weapon Training + Locked Gauntlet + Gloves of Dueling)
+19 vs Grapple (FCB + Rod of Escape + Alchemical Grease)
+9 vs Dirty Trick (FCB)
+8 vs Sunder (Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling)

===

Saves:
Fortitude 17
Reflex 12
Will 12 (+2 vs Fear)

Movement:
20 ft land speed
40 ft Fly Speed

Special
Greater Invisibility for 9 rounds per day. The rounds don’t need to be consecutive.

***

Key components of the build:
Crashing Wave Fist
Gain one Unarmed Attack for every 5 feet you move an opponent with Reposition/Drag, although at a scaling penalty.

Feral Combat Training (Unarmed Strike).

Quote:
A brawler’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that modify either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

'

Martial Versatility. Unarmed Strike is part of the 'Monk' weapon group, so I can now apply "the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite" to my Urumi: a monk weapon with a 18-20 crit range.

Repositioning Strike. Whenever you confirm a critical hit, use the confirmation roll as your Reposition CMB check. (Do note that it should be Improved Reposition in the prerequisites)

Repositioning weapon ability (+3). Whenever you confirm a critical hit, make a Reposition maneuver as a free action.

Quote:
Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect also functions against creatures not normally subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon's regular damage.

'

Luck Domain: Bit of Luck power + Headband of Fortune’s Favor. Roll every d20 twice for two rounds. Standard action to activate.

Belt of Impossible Action. This will allow me to reposition enemies of all sizes.

***

The Fight:
Spells Prepared: Divine Favor, Divine Favor, True Strike
Mending, Detect Magic, Purify Food and Drink

Chosen Buffs: Mutagen and Divine Favor.

Round 1
Standard Action to use Bit of Luck on myself. Swift action to enter the style. Move action for Martial Flexibility (Weapon Focus).

Round 2
Full-Attack, theoretical infinite damage on four enemies within reach. Can 5-foot step twice to reach as many as possible.

Round 3
Can’t be Pinned thanks to Rod of Escape, and can’t be Prone since we’re flying.

I begin the turn by making another saving throw against the Staggered effect (with the -4 from Shaken/Sickened), thanks to the Smelling Salts I’m wearing like a necklace. Then I ascend 20 ft up in the air (at a 45° angle to avoid the check) and cast CLW on myself the next turn.

The AoO is negated with Weapon Sacrifice, and one of my Cestus eats the hit. After I’m out of reach, I can begin healing with my wand and remove the Shaken/Sickened conditions with the Freedom subdomain’s power.

If I’m instead considered Grappled since I can’t be Pinned, I would use the Laughing Touch ability to make the foe break the grapple first (85% with a -6 attack penalty). Even if I drop to -1 HP the Smelling Salts would keep me up. Then after that I’d follow the same routine as before to escape its reach, except that I could avoid the AoO by 5-foot stepping away on round 3 and taking the Withdraw action on round 4.

***

Math:
Vs AC 30, CMD 35, and Flat-Footed 25.

My first two attack both have ~51% chance of critically hitting the enemy. Any critical hit will result in two Repositions. One from the confirmation roll, and one from my weapon ability.

Both of these maneuvers gives me additional attacks as per Crashing Wave Fist, which all have a chance of critically hitting.
So if we multiply the probabilities of getting our increased number of attacks from Crashing Wave Fist, with the probabilities of these extra attacks critically hitting, we'll see our estimated number of critical hits from any of those two hits.

The average number of critical hits from the Confirmation Roll Reposition (CRR) for a full-BAB Flurry critical hit is 1,12

The average number of critical hits from the Weapon Ability Reposition (WAR) maneuver is 1,05

So 2,17 is the average number of critical hits any Full-BAB Flurry critical hit would give us. If we multiply that by the chance of it being a critical hit, we'll get the estimated number of critical hits any of those two attacks will give us (ca 1,1).

Now the great part is that no matter which attack critically hit, no matter what penalty the CRR has, the WAR is always done at the same attack bonus. Since the average number of crits from the WAR is bigger than one, we have a theoretically infinite amounts of critical hits and of course, infinite damage.

===========

Here’s how the WAR was calculated.

With our CMB of +29, we can at the most get three attacks from Crashing Wave Fist at the rolls of 6, 11, then 16.

To get at least one attack, we need to roll a 6 or higher. So since we roll twice the probability increases from 0,75 to 0,9375.
To get our second attack, we need to roll a 11 or higher. From 0,5 to 0,75.
And for our third, we need a roll of 16 or higher. From 0,25 to 0,4375

These three attacks are made at +26/+21/+16, which means all critical threats are also hits on an AC of 30. The chance of a critical threat is 51%, and with our +6 to confirm we can easily determine the probability of a confirmed critical hit to 0,5087 /0,5049 /0,4475 respectively.

Then we multiply the probability of getting our first attack with the probability of the first attack being a confirmed critical hit, and so on.

We’ll get 0,4769 for our first attack, then 0,3787 and 0,1958. Added together, we have our average number of critical hits per WAR. 1,051

===========

Also, these numbers are before the effective +7 to attack from greater invisibility. With that, the CRR for a full-BAB Flurry would be 1,84 and the WAR would be 1,76. Then even our last iterative has theoretical infinite damage, and every WAR can give up to five extra attacks instead of just three.

***

Notes:
What’s up for debate?
The Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone which gives proficiency with the Urumi qualifies us for the Improved Critical feat, even though we don’t fulfill the prerequisite “permanently”. At least it did in 2012.
Even if this is wrong, Martial Flexibility can easily be used to fill the feat slot required.

*

Feats

AWT is great, and if it’s not for PFS then warrior spirit could have been taken instead of buying a +3 weapon ability.

I’d get Blind-Fight when possible, preferable from the Wayfinder resonant power for an average of 1,000 gp.

*

Viability at higher levels

Warrior Spirit would really help you achieve this earlier, but the moment you manage to add Dueling (PSFG) and later Leveraging to your weapon your CMB will explode through the roof.

You’ll also want to get attacks during the turns you apply Bit of Luck, so either AoOs or some swift action attack like Wings of the Androsphinx or Opportune Parry and Riposte.

*

How long can I keep this up?

Bit of Luck: 5 uses per day (10 rounds)

Greater Invisibility: 9 rounds per day

Martial Flexibility: 4 uses per day

Weapon Sacrifice: 4 uses per day, can repair Cestus with Mending.

***

Here we go. A Reposition maneuver build with infinite damage, which isn't restricted by critical hit immunity or those too large to normally be moved. No exploits or questionable reading of RAW required.

Keep in mind that this isn't any "they die so it's infinite damage" kind of deal, but literally no limit on damage dealt.

Here's how it plays out when you're rolling.

Example math:
Effective attack bonus for flurry at +31/+31/+26/+21

First, let's check for crits on our attacks. We should have a 51% chance of scoring a critical threat on each attack since we roll twice.

1st Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 81d20 ⇒ 9

2nd Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 101d20 ⇒ 20 *

3rd Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 91d20 ⇒ 12

4th Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 91d20 ⇒ 20 *

Alright, so one at +31 and another at +21. Let's add the +6 to confirm and see what our Repositioning Strikes end up with.

2nd Attack Confirmation: 1d20 + 37 ⇒ (11) + 37 = 481d20 + 37 ⇒ (18) + 37 = 55

4th Attack Confirmation: 1d20 + 27 ⇒ (14) + 27 = 411d20 + 27 ⇒ (13) + 27 = 40

So two Confirmation Roll Repositions (CRR), the first at 55 and the other at 41.

This means we'll get two Weapon Ability Repositions (WAR), both at the CMB bonus of 36.

1st WAR: 1d20 + 36 ⇒ (9) + 36 = 451d20 + 36 ⇒ (20) + 36 = 56

2nd WAR: 1d20 + 36 ⇒ (20) + 36 = 561d20 + 36 ⇒ (15) + 36 = 51

Seems we luckied out. Both WARs ended up with a total bonus of 56.

56, 56, 55, and 41.

This gives us four new attack routines thanks to Crashing Wave Fist:

+33/+28/+23/+18/+13

+33/+28/+23/+18/+13

+33/+28/+23/+18/+13

+33/+28

We'll do the top one, rolling for critical threats.

1st Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 101d20 ⇒ 17 *

2nd Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 41d20 ⇒ 17 *

3rd Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 91d20 ⇒ 20 *

4th Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 11d20 ⇒ 11

5th Attack: 1d20 ⇒ 191d20 ⇒ 14 *

So +33, +28, +23 and +13 are threats. Let's see their confirmation rolls.

1st Attack Confirmation: 1d20 + 39 ⇒ (10) + 39 = 491d20 + 39 ⇒ (8) + 39 = 47

2nd Attack Confirmation: 1d20 + 34 ⇒ (4) + 34 = 381d20 + 34 ⇒ (18) + 34 = 52

3rd Attack Confirmation: 1d20 + 29 ⇒ (3) + 29 = 321d20 + 29 ⇒ (18) + 29 = 47

5th Attack Confirmation: 1d20 + 19 ⇒ (7) + 19 = 261d20 + 19 ⇒ (14) + 19 = 33

Four CCRs, at 52, 49, 47 and 33. (The 33 doesn't give us more attacks, but it gives us a WAR)

So another four WARs at CMB 36.

3rd WAR: 1d20 + 36 ⇒ (8) + 36 = 441d20 + 36 ⇒ (14) + 36 = 50

4th WAR: 1d20 + 36 ⇒ (6) + 36 = 421d20 + 36 ⇒ (2) + 36 = 38

5th WAR: 1d20 + 36 ⇒ (14) + 36 = 501d20 + 36 ⇒ (10) + 36 = 46

6th WAR: 1d20 + 36 ⇒ (10) + 36 = 461d20 + 36 ⇒ (17) + 36 = 53

That's 53, 50, 50, 42.

===============

So if we add the new attack routines to the previous three we didn't run the math on, we have the following attack routines which all can keep chaining.

+33/+28/+23/+18/+13

+33/+28/+23/+18/+13

+33/+28/+23/+18

+33/+28/+23/+18

+33/+28/+23/+18

+33/+28/+23/+18

+33/+28/+23

+33/+28/+23

+33/+28

+33/+28

*****

That's 36 attacks to roll twice on both the attack and confirmation rolls for. Although we lucked out on our crits for the 2nd attack routine, you get the general idea.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
This chart says the ST/DEX Bonus is +3 at level 11. Is d20pfsrd wrong? Is Slim Jim wrong?
You are completely right that the bonus would be +3 at level 11 (more so than me that completely missed the level bonus), but Slim Jim did take Boon Companion at level 7 to boost Pong's effective level back to 12.
More to the point, according to the terms of the challenge, no sidekick that is not full-level is alive for round 3.
Quote:
So the Dex/Str bonus is at +4.
The Str/Dex bonus is +3; the other +1 (to bring Dex to +4) if from the second open "Ability Score increase" that our animal companion is entitled to. (I used the other one to increase constitution since making something else an odd number was pointless.)
Quote:
...Paired Opportunist doesn't work that way....

You cannot gain a second AoO for the same triggering action, but if the action you take for the granted AoO then itself triggers more AoOs, you can unspool a daisy-chain that doesn't end until you've completely exhausted either your AoO pool or threat-triggering options for that round. AoO-triggering mechanisms in the Ping Pong Pong build include enemy movement, Greater Trip, Greater Bull Rush, Outflank (w/crit), Fortuitous, Broken Wing Gambit, and of course Paired Opportunists itself. Standing up from prone would also trigger, but I did not include that since it's not a given that a tripped opponent will attempt to stand up.

BTW, if an animal companion's "Str/Dex bonus" adds to both of those stats rather than the one of your choice (as I had assumed, choosing Dex for Pong), then Pong's strength can be 4 higher than listed after repurposing the Ability Score increase currently given to Con. This will bump total damage up considerably (probably a couple hundred points or so).


Wonderstell wrote:

Hm, sounds like I should post my build before it's too late, then.

Round 2
Full-Attack, theoretical infinite damage on four enemies within reach. Can 5-foot step twice to reach as many as possible.

Crashing Wave Fist wrote:
Benefit: When dragging or repositioning an opponent, at any point during the movement, you can make one unarmed attack against the opponent using your highest attack bonus. You can make one additional attack for every 5 feet you drag or reposition the opponent beyond the first 5 feet. You take a cumulative –5 penalty on each additional attack made in this way.

Since your attack bonus begins at a finite value (with escalating penalties impinging upon ability to confirm threats as well), and your movement per round is also finite, I'm not seeing the wellspring of "theoretically infinite damage" (even in the case of additional opponents in Round 2, which the challenge didn't provide as far as I am aware).

Aside: changlings are not currently legal for PFS play, which means that gaining a racial trait from them via Adopted might not (?) be legal either. Not that it matters much since you could just worship Rovagug as a chaotic-neutral and take the Bestial Wrath trait which does the same thing you wanted.


Slim Jim wrote:
Aside: changlings are not currently legal for PFS play, which means that gaining a racial trait from them via Adopted might not (?) be legal either. Not that it matters much since you could just worship Rovagug as a chaotic-neutral and take the Bestial Wrath trait which does the same thing you wanted.

That would be a problem since I need Desna for the Luck/Freedom domains, but I could take Martial Manuscript if needed. But as it is a Faith Trait I'd lose Fate's Favored.

Slim Jim wrote:
Crashing Wave Fist wrote:
Benefit: When dragging or repositioning an opponent, at any point during the movement, you can make one unarmed attack against the opponent using your highest attack bonus. You can make one additional attack for every 5 feet you drag or reposition the opponent beyond the first 5 feet. You take a cumulative –5 penalty on each additional attack made in this way.
Since your attack bonus begins at a finite value (with escalating penalties impinging upon ability to confirm threats as well) (1), and your movement per round is also finite (2), I'm not seeing the wellspring of "theoretically infinite damage" (even in the case of additional opponents in Round 2, which the challenge didn't provide as far as I am aware).

1) The penalties are accounted for. Check the "Example Math" spoiler.

I Reposition the foe 15 ft, gain three attacks (BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10), and roll for crits. One of them confirms at 45, moving the enemy 15 ft and giving me three attacks again (BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10).
And then we also roll for the free action reposition, moving the enemy 15 ft again and giving me three more attacks (BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10).

The cumulative penalty is obviously ending when the maneuver is over, as nothing remotely implies it is carried over.

2) Reposition, in contrast to Drag, does not require you to move with your opponent.


Wonderstell, I'm only getting a Weapon Training Bonus of +2 for a level 9 Fighter. I'm getting a +4 ST for the Mutagen, leading to a +2 Attack and Damage. You assigned +4 for both. What did I miss?


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell, I'm only getting a Weapon Training Bonus of +2 for a level 9 Fighter. I'm getting a +4 ST for the Mutagen, leading to a +2 Attack and Damage. You assigned +4 for both. What did I miss?

Gloves of Dueling increases your Weapon Training by two, giving us a +4 bonus. They cost a bit, but every mid-level fighter should have them because they also provide their benefit to the Advanced Weapon Training options.

I start out with a Strength of 17, and by level 12 I've placed three ability score increases in it. When I use Mutagen, my total Strength score is 24 and my modifier is +7.


Wonderstell,

I like your build a lot, but I'm not getting anything like infinity damage. If you are extremely lucky, it could happen theoretically, but on average--I'm not done with my calculations--I'm seeing more like 100. The thing is, for ridiculously high damage to happen, you need multiple successive crits, and the chances of those happening taper off geometrically, even considering your high attack bonus and all those re-rolls.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Wonderstell,

I like your build a lot, but I'm not getting anything like infinity damage. If you are extremely lucky, it could happen theoretically, but on average--I'm not done with my calculations--I'm seeing more like 100. The thing is, for ridiculously high damage to happen, you need multiple successive crits, and the chances of those happening taper off geometrically, even considering your high attack bonus and all those re-rolls.

While I'm not sure how your calculations are done, the proof of "theoretical infinite damage" has been given in the Math spoiler.

If numbers don't satisfy you, then look at the Example Math spoiler for how the number of attacks grow.

And if that's not enough, you could just grab two d20s and try it yourself.

Do-it-yourself:
Roll every d20 twice thanks to Bit of Luck

1.
Start out with four attacks at (an effective) attack bonus of +31/+31/+26/+21, and roll to see if any attack is a critical threat (15-20 crit range).

Now confirm these critical threats with a +6 bonus, and write down the total result of each confirmation roll. You'll need them in just a moment.

2.
For every confirmed critical hit, make a free action reposition maneuver at a +36 CMB bonus. Write down the total result for each reposition.

3.
Now compare the total result of each confirmation roll and each free action reposition to the table below. That's the new attack routine(s) you get from your reposition maneuvers and critical hits.

30-34 : -
35-39 : +33
40-44 : +33/+28
45-49 : +33/+28/+23
50-54 : +33/+28/+23/+18
55-59 : +33/+28/+23/+18/+13

4. Redo step 1-3, but with your new attack routines.


Step 1 has about a 1/16 chance (0.7^8) of coming up with no crit threats. Working out the math past that point is horrible, but since I've just seen a game session of GURPS where 3 different players rolled natural 3s on 3d6, I know longer odds can come off.

But yeah, the mean damage looks like it's heading to infinity to me (I'm pretty sure on average you get more attacks on step 4 than you have at the first step 1). Congrats on seeing the potential brokenness in crashing wave fist.


I’m leaning toward it works? Improved Trip is a Prereq for Repositioning Strike tho, I don’t see where that’s met.


@avr

Yup. You can break the chain if you roll poorly, but there's also a 1/15 chance that all four are crit threats ;)

Oh and you definitely end up with more attacks on step 4 than at the first step 1. Just the weapon ability would be enough to reach infinity, adding Repositioning Strike on top of that is just to give us theoretical infinite damage on every attack in the normal Flurry.

So if someone also reaches infinite damage later on, this build would be able to reach "infinity times five" damage with Haste.

============

@Lelomenia

Quote:
Repositioning Strike. Whenever you confirm a critical hit, use the confirmation roll as your Reposition CMB check. (Do note that it should be Improved Reposition in the prerequisites)

Archives got the wrong feat listed, but I still linked to them because they have the "seal of approval" for PFS legality.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Wonderstell,

I like your build a lot, but I'm not getting anything like infinity damage. If you are extremely lucky, it could happen theoretically, but on average--I'm not done with my calculations--I'm seeing more like 100. The thing is, for ridiculously high damage to happen, you need multiple successive crits, and the chances of those happening taper off geometrically, even considering your high attack bonus and all those re-rolls.

While I'm not sure how your calculations are done, the proof of "theoretical infinite damage" has been given in the Math spoiler.

If numbers don't satisfy you, then look at the Example Math spoiler for how the number of attacks grow.

And if that's not enough, you could just grab two d20s and try it yourself.

An important feature of your build seems to be that the Repositioning Enchantment stacks with Repositioning Strike. Are you sure that's the case? One triggers "when you score a critical hit." The other triggers when you "confirm a critical hit," but those 2 are the same trigger, and you don't normally get 2 things off of the same trigger.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
An important feature of your build seems to be that the Repositioning Enchantment stacks with Repositioning Strike. Are you sure that's the case? One triggers "when you score a critical hit." The other triggers when you "confirm a critical hit," but those 2 are the same trigger, and you don't normally get 2 things off of the same trigger.

You're probably thinking of Attack of Opportunities, as I've not heard of any such general statement. Even so, the critical hit itself is not the trigger; the weapon ability and the feat are the triggers.

Also, Repositioning Strike is just for overkill. The weapon ability is enough for infinite damage, which means that even enemies immune to critical hits would take infinite damage (since weapon abilities that triggers on crits doesn't care about immunity).


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
An important feature of your build seems to be that the Repositioning Enchantment stacks with Repositioning Strike. Are you sure that's the case? One triggers "when you score a critical hit." The other triggers when you "confirm a critical hit," but those 2 are the same trigger, and you don't normally get 2 things off of the same trigger.

You're probably thinking of Attack of Opportunities, as I've not heard of any such general statement. Even so, the critical hit itself is not the trigger; the weapon ability and the feat are the triggers.

Also, Repositioning Strike is just for overkill. The weapon ability is enough for infinite damage, which means that even enemies immune to critical hits would take infinite damage (since weapon abilities that triggers on crits doesn't care about immunity).

I went ahead and started a new thread in the Rules Forum to confirm that you can use the Repositioning Enchantment and Repositioning Strike to get 2 Repositions off of the same Crit.


It seems to me that your first attack should just be a Reposition Combat Maneuver, not a Full Attack. You start the round under the influence of True Strike, don't you? Well, the higher your roll, the more Attacks you get off of your Reposition Combat Maneuver Check. I reckon with your CMB and True Strike, you should expect 4 Attacks to precipitate from your an initial reposition as opposed to just 2 from your Full Attack Action.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It seems to me that your first attack should just be a Reposition Combat Maneuver, not a Full Attack. You start the round under the influence of True Strike, don't you? Well, the higher your roll, the more Attacks you get off of your Reposition Combat Maneuver Check. I reckon with your CMB and True Strike, you should expect 4 Attacks to precipitate from your an initial reposition as opposed to just 2 from your Full Attack Action.

Nah, True Strike isn't used at all. While unimportant, I wrote down what spells were prepared. It was mainly to show that the build is entirely self-sustainable and didn't use any external buffs.

I'm quite sure you must have misread Crashing Wave Fist, because a True strike reposition with Bit of Luck would have a 51% chance of giving me at least eight attacks, not four.

And a Flurry would on average give me four repositions, each maneuver giving me around three new attacks.

Liberty's Edge

For locating a broken feat capable of generating almost limitless damage, Wonderstell is hereby awarded gold.

"Crashing Wave Fist" is henceforth not allowed in the arena.

== == == == ==

(In other news, my vacation continues for another week or so.)


I'm convinced that Wonderstell's build is legal and the feats/spells/class abilities work together the way he says. I've done some more calculations on Wonderstell's build. I am still not finding a very high expected value for DPR, though.

Boiled Down:
Crashing Wave Style Feats applied to the Urumi with Improved Crit. Nova’d with True Strike, ST: 17 + Mutagen (he gives himself a +7, but his ST+Mutagen is only +5. Urumi is a 1 handed weapon. Bitter Heart (+2 to Confirm crits), Fate’s Favored: +1 Luck Bonus that stacks with other Luck Bonuses. CMB +2 (Feats), Repostioning Strike. +1, Repositioning Urumi, 12. Bastion, Luck Domain, Freedom Subdomain, Weapon Training+4 (+2 regularly +2 for Gloves of Dueling , Crit Focus

A Bit of Luck is letting you reroll every d20!

Damage/regular hit: 1d8 + 7St+2Weapon Training+2 Glove of Dueling +1Urumi +2 Divine Favor = 4.5 + 14 = 18.5

Distance pushed on a Reposition 5’/every 5 by which you exceed the CMD = 1’/1, but drop the remainder.

Initial Reposition: CMB +11Base +7St +2Repositioning +2 ImpR +2 Divine Favor +20 True Strike = +42 vs CMD 35 means he only fails on a 1, on a 2 he repositions 7 feet. On a 20, he repositions 25 Feet. Since you are rolling 2 dice and taking the better, your average roll is not 10.5, but more like 14. 14+42 = 56. 56-35 = 14. Call it 15. The expected result is that the initial reposition bolstered by Bit of Luck and True Strike will yield 4 bonus attacks from Curling Wave: at 0, -5, -10, and -15 penalties respectively.

On subsequent repositions, he doesn’t get the +20, so the average result will be 14 + 22 = 36: yielding only 1 bonus attack on average. He needs a 35-22 = 11 to succeed for a 50% chance of success/roll. But Critical Hits can yield 2 Repostions due to having both Repostioning Strike and the Repositioninig Enchantment.

Attack Bonus: BAB+11 ST 24 (=20+4Mutagen) +7 +1 Weapon Focus +1 Weapon, Weapon Training +2 Divine Favor+2 Gloves of Dueling +2= +27, vs. AC 35, he needs an 8 to hit: probability = 0.6 You have an Urumi and Improved Crit for a 0.3 chance of Threatening a Crit. You need a 2 to confirm, for a 0.9, so you have a 0.27 chance of Critting.

Damage on the first Attack:
18.5(1 -0.4 X 0.4) + 18.5(1- 0.7 X 0.7)(1-0.05X0.05) = 18.5(1-0.16) + 18.5 X 0.49 = 25 points of damage.
The chances of Scoring a Crit off this attack are 0.51, yielding another Curling Repostion and another attack, possibly 2.
Damage: 25 X 0.51 = 12.75 points of damage. In this case, the CMD = AC, so there is no possibility of a confirmed crit without a Repostion off of R.S.
The expected Damage from subsequent crits tapers off exponentially, granting diminishing returns

The chance of scoring a Reposition off of the Repositioning Enchantment depends upon a successful Crit Confirmation Roll. The expected Damage will therefore be 25 X 0.51 X .75 = 9.6

It is possible to continue to score successive, successful crits, Repositions and attacks which score more, but since the first time you score a crit, you break the chain, the expected value of this cascade tapers off. I mapped out the expected values of each round of attacks based on cascading, continued successes on a tree, stopping when each branch tapered off to less than 1. The expected value of this attack tree is 73 hit points, give or take fractional values.

The character, like I said before, should get 4 attacks off the Reposition. But they do not have an expected value of 73 hit points each, since they start off at -5, -10, and -15. The cascade would stop stuffering these penalties, but the expected values still taper off exponentially like the first tree did. If the added penalties did not exist, the whole DPR of this build would be expected to be about 300 hit points. I haven’t reckoned the other 2 trees, but I’m guessing the DPR will work out to be in the 200-250 range.

It’s a really cool build, and presuming lots of luck it could possibly go on forever, but I don’t think infinity is a realistic expected value for the build. Being generous, I’d say 250.


Scott. This is starting to become insulting.

About 70% of what you just wrote isn't simply wrong, it's full of things refuting what I've explicitly explained to you.

Do you think I'm lying to you? Is that why you refuse to listen to me?

True Strike isn't used

The CMB bonus is 29, not 22

The AC of the monster is 30, not 35

DO IT YOURSELF

Don't calculate anything more, just sit down with a pen and paper, and roll your two D20's until you understand that it works both in practice and in theory.


Scott, if the mean number of attacks gained with each iteration is greater than that you start with then the mean damage is infinite. It doesn't matter what the damage per attack is so long as it's above zero, infinity times any positive number is infinity.

With 4 attacks, each critting on 15+ (I.e. 30% chance) and rolling twice for each attack, then the mean number of crit threats on the first set of attacks is 4 * (1 - (1 - 0.3)^2) = 2.04

Confirming the crit threats occurs on a 2+ for the first two attacks, 3+ on the third, 8+ on the last. Still rolling twice for each that's a 0.25% chance of failing to confirm on the first two, 1% on the third, 12.25% on the last. The mean chance of failing to confirm a crit is a shade under 3.5%. The mean number of confirmed crit threats is about 1.97 off the first set of attacks.

Each confirmed crit threat generates about 2.26 new attacks on average (I needed a spreadsheet to work this out, putting it into a concise post is beyond me) before adding the free reposition and any attacks this generates. Multiplied by the mean number of crits this alone - not including the reposition etc. - is more attacks than you start with. Adding in the reposition and the attacks that generates mean you're more than doubling the amount of attacks with each iteration.

When each attack generates more than one attack, and this process can be repeated without spending any actions but free ones, you have an infinite number of attacks.


Wonderstell wrote:
The AC of the monster is 30, not 35

This is what made me think 35:

Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Perhaps you could include the opponent's CMD as well?

That would be 35, or 30 without the dex bonus.

All checks except attack rolls are made against a DC of 35.
Feinting, Piercing Spell Resistance, Opposed Strength Checks, etc.

The opponent's checks are always 35, too. Their Attacks and most importantly Saving Throws.

Honestly, the absurdly high Spell Resistance and Saving Throws have all but shut casters out of this contest. While martials are facing something in the CR 12-15 range, Casters are facing an opponent with Saves/SR in the CR 21-25 range.

Wonderstell, I'm not insulting you. I'm not calling you a liar. You are telling me to do the math myself, and so I am. I'm just getting different answers than you.


avr wrote:

Scott, if the mean number of attacks gained with each iteration is greater than that you start with then the mean damage is infinite. ...

When each attack generates more than one attack, and this process can be repeated without spending any actions but free ones, you have an infinite number of attacks.

I'm not actually sure that it trends to infinity, although it does trend to a lot (I think). I think you would need to look at the probability of the chain of attacks breaking; if it's not zero, then as you go to infinity attacks (and before you get there), the chain will break... I'm not sure how to do the math/probability calculations though.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
The AC of the monster is 30, not 35
This is what made me think 35:

This is the exact thing that makes it so hard to have a conversation. You don't read what I'm writing, you only read what you want to read.

Read the quote you just posted. Read it.

Quote:
All checks except attack rolls are made against a DC of 35.

And even though it is completely unnecessary I included that bit of information in my "Math" spoiler so that there would be no misunderstandings.

Wonderstell wrote:
Vs AC 30, CMD 35, and Flat-Footed 25.

Guess that didn't matter because you haven't opened the "Math" spoiler once, even though that's where the proof is.

*

Everything else wrong:
Scott Vilhelm wrote:
Initial Reposition: CMB +11Base +7St +2Repositioning +2 ImpR +2 Divine Favor +20 True Strike = +42 vs CMD 35 means he only fails on a 1, on a 2 he repositions 7 feet. On a 20, he repositions 25 Feet.

Why, in the name of benevolent death, do you still harp on about True Strike?

You've already asked about True Strike, and I said it wasn't used at all.

Scott Vilhelm wrote:

It seems to me that your first attack should just be a Reposition Combat Maneuver, not a Full Attack. You start the round under the influence of True Strike, don't you?

Wonderstell wrote:
Nah, True Strike isn't used at all.

And not only did you manage to fail to add all your modifiers together correctly, as the total would be +44, you ignored the CMB I've already provided which explains where every single one of the bonuses come from. The total CMB bonus is +29, just accept it.

*

Scott Vilhelm wrote:
ST: 17 + Mutagen (he gives himself a +7, but his ST+Mutagen is only +5.

What the hell is this.

Scott Vilhelm wrote:

Wonderstell, I'm only getting a Weapon Training Bonus of +2 for a level 9 Fighter. I'm getting a +4 ST for the Mutagen, leading to a +2 Attack and Damage. You assigned +4 for both. What did I miss?

Wonderstell wrote:
I start out with a Strength of 17, and by level 12 I've placed three ability score increases in it. When I use Mutagen, my total Strength score is 24 and my modifier is +7.

Why would you even ask something if you'll pretend I haven't answered it?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell, I'm not insulting you. I'm not calling you a liar. You are telling me to do the math myself, and so I am. I'm just getting different answers than you.

You are insulting me by continuously ignoring every answer I've given you. It doesn't exactly help your case that you've also decided my numbers aren't reliable, and don't even bother to compare your final bonuses to mine. If you had, you would quickly have realized you failed basic addition twice.

I never asked you to do the math yourself. I've asked you repeatedly to just sit down and follow the very simple and straightforward instructions I've provided.

The "Math" spoiler shows exactly how I've reached the proof of infinite damage, and you can easily double-check my results with a calculator.


Wonderstell wrote:

Scott Vilhelm wrote:

ST: 17 + Mutagen (he gives himself a +7, but his ST+Mutagen is only +5.
What the hell is this.
Scott Vilhelm wrote:
Wonderstell, I'm only getting a Weapon Training Bonus of +2 for a level 9 Fighter. I'm getting a +4 ST for the Mutagen, leading to a +2 Attack and Damage. You assigned +4 for both. What did I miss?
Wonderstell wrote:
I start out with a Strength of 17, and by level 12 I've placed three ability score increases in it. When I use Mutagen, my total Strength score is 24 and my modifier is +7.

Huh, that looks like rough draft material and marginalia that I copied into the final by accident.

Oops, Sorry.

The reason why I am harping on True Strike and leading with a Reposition Combat Maneuver is that it will lead you to more attacks and more damage than leading with a Full Attack.

There is an infinite exponential thing going on, but I do not think it will lead to infinite damage. I think the damage will increase at a decreasing rate kinf of like an asymtote.

I am struggling to understand how you reach infinite damage. And if you think it is easy, and are frustrated with how difficult I'm finding it, then I need to ask you for patience.

Or maybe it is clearly my turn to be insulted.


pad300 wrote:
avr wrote:

Scott, if the mean number of attacks gained with each iteration is greater than that you start with then the mean damage is infinite. ...

When each attack generates more than one attack, and this process can be repeated without spending any actions but free ones, you have an infinite number of attacks.

I'm not actually sure that it trends to infinity, although it does trend to a lot (I think). I think you would need to look at the probability of the chain of attacks breaking; if it's not zero, then as you go to infinity attacks (and before you get there), the chain will break... I'm not sure how to do the math/probability calculations though.

No, this is not correct. There is a chance of the chain breaking (about 1/16 on the first step, less thereafter) but this does not prevent the mean being infinity because the number of attacks roughly doubles with each step. Which also means 1) it increases exponentially rather than approaching an asymptotic limit and 2) at least two people who commented after my previous post on this thread decided to go with their guts rather than reading the math.


I'll give you the benefit of doubt and believe that you haven't acted in bad faith. I apologize for losing my temper, but it's hard to keep a civil tone when I've gone out of my way multiple times to show you how it works, and you've yet to shown you've read anything of what I've written.

Instead of simply ignoring my posts, you could have explained why you don't believe my proof to be sufficient. You could have asked questions about parts that were hard to follow, or why you don't think what I've written was correct.

What follows is the exact steps I've taken to calculate the expected number of extra attacks a Flurry would give me. Bring a calculator, double check how much you want, and tell me if anything seems to be wrong.

Expected Number of Attacks:
Effective Flurry Attack Routine with Greater Invisibility vs AC 30/CMD 35:

+31/+31/+26/+21

Since all four attacks hit the target AC of 30 on a roll of 15, we can add the +6 bonus to confirm crits since we only care about critical hits.

+37/+37/+32/+27

*

Effective Reposition CMB with Greater Invisibility:

+36

========

Now I'll calculate the number of expected attacks a critical hit would give us at the different attack bonuses.

Here's what the numbers mean.

# of Attack : Target Number : Probability of success

+37

Attack 1 : 35 : 0,9975
Attack 2 : 40 : 0,99
Attack 3 : 45 : 0,8775
Attack 4 : 50 : 0,64
Attack 5 : 55 : 0,2275

If we add all those probabilities together, we get the expected total number of attacks. For +37, this would be:

0,9975+0,99+0,8775+0,64+0,2275 = 3,7325

Expected number of Attacks: 3,7325

+32

Attack 1 : 35 : 0,99
Attack 2 : 40 : 0,8775
Attack 3 : 45 : 0,64
Attack 4 : 50 : 0,2275

Expected number of Attacks: 2,735

+27

Attack 1 : 35 : 0,8775
Attack 2 : 40 : 0,64
Attack 3 : 45 : 0,2275

Expected number of Attacks: 1,745

========

In addition to those numbers, we'll also need the expected number of attacks the Weapon Ability Reposition would give us.

+36

Attack 1 : 35 : 0,9975
Attack 2 : 40 : 0,9775
Attack 3 : 45 : 0,84
Attack 4 : 50 : 0,5775
Attack 5 : 55 : 0,19

Expected number of Attacks: 3,5825

========

So if we crit with an attack with a +37 bonus, we'll add the values of expected attacks from both the +37 and the +36 together to gain our total amount of expected attacks.

Crit on +37: (3,7325 + 3,5825) = 7,315

Crit on +32: (2,735 + 3,5825) = 6,3175

Crit on +27: (1,745 + 3,5825) = 5,3275

========

So if we then multiply these values with the chance of a critical hit, we'll get the expected number of attacks per attack:

+37: (7,315 * 0,508725) = 3,72

+32: (6,3175 * 0,508725) = 3,21

+27: (5,3275 * 0,5049) = 2,69

If we add these values together (twice for the +37 since there's two +37 attacks), we'll get the expected number of attacks per Flurry.

=======

3,72 + 3,72 + 3,21 + 2,69
= 13,34

Expected number of extra attacks given from a Flurry: 13,34


Okay, I guess I'm getting myself confused here. Let me try to start from the beginning.

You Damage/Attack is 1d8 + 14 for an average of 18.5 points of damage on a regular hit.

Wonderstell wrote:

Attack Bonus (Urumi): 11 (BAB) + 7 (Str+Mutagen) + 1 (Enhancement) +4 (Weapon Training) +2 (Divine Favor) -2 (Flurry) +1 (Martial Versatility: Weapon Focus)

= +24/+24/+19/+14 (1d8+14, 15-20/x2)
+6 to Confirm Crits

Okay, so on your first Attack, you hit AC 30 on a 6: a 75% chance of hitting, 25% chance of missing. But since you get to reroll every d20, your chances of hitting are much greater.

1- 0.25 X 0.25 = 0.9375.

You Damage for your first attack is the Damage/hit X probability of hitting + your damage X the probability of Critting. Your probability of Threatening is 0.51. Your probability of Confirming is 399/400. I won't count it this time.

So, 18.5 X 9.375 + 18.5 X 0.51 = 26.8 + (residual bonus attacks from critting).

Your probability of Scoring a Reposition is lower than your probability to score a crit: the CMD is 35, and your Crit Confirmation Modifier is +30, so you would fail on 2 rolls of 4 or lower, meaning you would have a 0.96 chance of Scoring on RS.

Rolling 2 d20 and taking the higher number, the average roll increases from 10.5 to about 14. 14 +30 = 44. 44-35 = 11, meaning you can expect 2 bonus attacks off of a successful Repostion, the second at a -5. But the Reposition doesn't even happen unless you score a Threat in the first place. The first one does 26.8 X 0.51 X 0.96 = 13.1 + (residual attacks)

For the 2nd one, you need an 11 to hit, with 2 rolls, that means you have a 0.75 chance of hitting. This Crit Confirmation roll would suffer the -5, meaning you need a 5, a 0.20 chance of failure, but since missing takes 2 failures, the chance of success is 0.96.

So 26.8 X .51 X 0.96 X 0.96 = 12.6 + (residual attacks)

You Reposition from Repositioning Strike depends upon a successful Crit, which this time, anyway ~ the chances of getting a threat, so these 2 attacks also should do 13.1 and 12.6

These 4 attacks also might blossom out into 8, 16, and 32 and so on.

But since successive tiers of attacks depend upon successive successful Crits, each having just over a 50% chance of succeeding, the expected damage from attacks in each tier also reduce by about half.

3rd tier: 13.1 X .51 = 6.7 12.6 X .51 = 6.4

Oh, snap. The numbers are going up, aren't they? Wow, Wonder, I think you might have reached escape velocity on this one.

I might revisit this later, but I think you do win at D&D.


Could you please stop discrediting my build? I don't understand your obsession with working out the math by yourself, when I've done all the work thrice over.

I know that it might be complex, but your calculations are simply wrong. Over and over and over again have I explained how to reach my conclusions, with ample evidence to support my claims. And I appreciate that you've finally decided my stated Attack Bonuses are correct, but you're still missing vital information since you don't have the patience to read through my posts.

If you absolutely need to reach the conclusion all by yourself, you can't keep skipping out on the math by using the average number.

Here's what you need to reach the theoretical proof of infinite attacks, and if you don't understand why then ask me. There's no shame in learning. Nobody expects you to know everything.

What you need:
If we rely solely on the Repositioning weapon ability, which gives us a free action maneuver whenever we critically hit, we'll still have infinite damage. This is what you need to reach that conclusion.

Known values

You roll every d20 twice.

The AC is 30, the CMD is 35.

Repositioning CMB bonus without Greater Invisibility: +29

Target CMB DC for getting extra attacks: 35, 40, and 45.

If you hit target DC 35, you'll get one attack with a bonus of +26. This has a 93,75% of occurring.

If you hit target DC 40, you'll get another attack in addition to the first with a bonus of +21. This has a 75% of occurring.

If you hit target DC 45, you'll get another attack in addition to the first two with a bonus of 16. This has a 43,75% of occurring.

You have a +6 bonus to confirmation rolls. The chance of scoring a critical threat is always 51%.

You do not need to know the average damage dealt by an attack.
You do not need to calculate the hit chance of any attack that isn't a critical hit.

======

What you need to do, is calculate the average number of critical hits from a reposition made with a +29 bonus.


I know this is the level 12 challenge, but could someone help me figure out the DPR for one of my characters. I just did a level 17 sheet for him to use as a backup in my current game and I'm curious about how much damage he can do.

He's a Kistune and a Feral Champion Warpriest with one level of Adaptive Shifter. Stats are 12 Str, 22 Dex, 20 Con, 16 Int, 20 Wis, 12 Cha. That includes the boosts from a Belt of Physical Might and some Ioun Stones.

He has a Bite attack from his race, 2 Claw attacks from Warpriest, Tail Slap from Shifter, Gore from the Helm of the Mammoth Lord, and 2 Talon attacks from the Eagle Animal Totem Tattoo. Tattoo also comes with a bite attack, but is ignored due to his racial attack.

Items are Deliquescent Gloves for a +1d6 Acid damage on his Claws and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Feats are Weapon Finesse, Blood Feast, Hammer the Gap, and Weapon Focus Claws/Bite/Tail Slap/Gore/Talons. The Weapon Focus feats allow all his natural weapons to be Sacred Weapons for a 2d6 base damage each and only Tail Slap is a secondary attack.

This is his sheet: Link

Could someone help me figure out his average DPR?


Use this.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Yes. It's actually ready to go but I'm on vacation at the moment and didn't want to be bombarded for clarifications. It'll keep the same three-round structure, but there's a twist to it (which I wont reveal right now). The combat, as promised, with be "entirely new" (no previous contest's builds will be remotely effective); ranged combatants will love it.

Knock Knock, is there anyone home?

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