[UM] Walter's Guide to the Magus

[shroudb]

master_marshmallow wrote:

For shame.

it would be a good boost for the swift-action-staved magus, but he needs to be able to rage, which he doesn't.

even with a dip in bloodrager, he would qualify, but to actually benefit from the feat you need to be IN bloodrage.

the problem is that bloodrage doesn't permit spellcasting.

he would need to go at least bloodrager 4 to gain the ability to cast while bloodraging, which would cripple the rest of the build.

so no candy here

[STR Ranger]

Is it me or is the precise strike Arcane deed a stupid good addition to the magus?

Pretty much eliminates the need for Power Attack, EVER.

No more str based Magai

[ZanThrax]

It is very good. And if you decide to take some more Arcane Deeds (evasive, for example), then the Flamboyant Arcana tax doesn't sting nearly as much.

[kestral287]

There are some questions floating around about Precise Strike-- a subset claims that it doesn't work because of Spell Combat, and it's also been noted (more reasonably) that a Magus 20 with Precise Strike still has a Swash level of 0, so by a /really/ strict reading you add +0 damage.

For the other 90% of GMs though, yes, Precise Strike is insanely good. It's two feats/arcanas... but given that I'd yet to find a 6th-level Arcana that I like, I'm totally fine dropping that and a feat into it. If you really wanted you could get it at 3rd level, just like the Swashbuckler... but personally I like Arcane Accuracy too much to just give up.

While I'm in the thread, what are some spells of choice that people like to grab with Spell Blending/the 19th level ability?

[Saint Bernard]

kestral287 wrote:

There are some questions floating around about Precise Strike-- a subset claims that it doesn't work because of Spell Combat, and it's also been noted (more reasonably) that a Magus 20 with Precise Strike still has a Swash level of 0, so by a /really/ strict reading you add +0 damage.

For the other 90% of GMs though, yes, Precise Strike is insanely good. It's two feats/arcanas... but given that I'd yet to find a 6th-level Arcana that I like, I'm totally fine dropping that and a feat into it. If you really wanted you could get it at 3rd level, just like the Swashbuckler... but personally I like Arcane Accuracy too much to just give up.

While I'm in the thread, what are some spells of choice that people like to grab with Spell Blending/the 19th level ability?

The cost of two feats and two arcana does make picking up Precise Strike reasonable. It is not an option, which a character can have without a cost. Also put me in the camp where Precise Strike works with Spell Combat and either Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace.

[DRS3]

STR Ranger wrote:

Is it me or is the precise strike Arcane deed a stupid good addition to the magus?

Pretty much eliminates the need for Power Attack, EVER.

No more str based Magai

Just make your str based magus use a rapier, seriously, all you lose is the ability to 2 hand your weapon. Rapiers like all melee weapons naturally default to str, you spend feats to use dex with them. As a bonus you can also use daggers for throwing attacks for short distance.

Regards,
DRS

[ICN]

A Kensai with a one level dip in Swashbuckler seems like it could be very good. Swashbuckler Finesse + Kensai Weapon Focus + Slashing Grace gives the benefits of Dervish Dance to any one handed slashing weapon, while costing one less feat and two less skill points. At 11th level Kensai, when you can combine Superior Reflexes with Opportune Parry and Riposte, while using either your arcane pool or panache points (which recharge on a killing blow or a critical hit) to power it, makes you pretty nasty in melee combat.

[kestral287]

12th level Kensai, not 11th. The dip sets you back, which is a lot of why I dislike it. Surviving your second level is going to suck, and you're permanently down in spells, and you have to choose between getting a usable Panache pool (via Inspired Blade) or getting more than just Weapon Finesse: Rapier.

Really, it seems like we're better off waiting for Fencing Grace. Doable in two feats without a dip (meaning level 1 Human), and the only real loss is that you can't apply it to a katana for that +1 damage per attack.

[Fencer_guy]

Will there be an update to the guide? Not just for the ACG book that is out but adding some more feats as well.

[kestral287]

Don't think Walter's been around for a long while. There's a Kensai-specific guide that's up to date

I'm debating putting together a guide myself but laziness will probably win out.

[Zimheaho]

It's a shame its not been updated for a while as I've found Walter's guide very useful for the main character I play in most of my gaming sessions.

I think a lack of full knowledge rather than laziness is what is stopping me from writing a guide!

Has anyone thought of picking up from where he left off, assuming he did not mind?

[Dearen]

Guide wrote:

Level 3: He’s got more health now, 21, about what a wizard has. He’s also picked up Dervish Dance and spellstrike; now his basic attack is a +6 to hit (+9 with arcane accuracy) for 1d6+4, and his spell combat allows him to make two attacks at a +8/+8 if he expends a point from his pool. The first is an attack with his scimitar that hits for 1d6+6, while second (via spellstrike) hits for 3d6 with Shocking Grasp, plus another 1d6+6 from his sword. Better than his Strength based counterpart. His AC is also statically higher still, at an 18.

Sure I've lost something .. but .. I've basic attack at +6 .. with Arcane accuracy I reach +9 .. using spell combat I've a -2 penalty on attack roll .. that's a final +7/+7 for me .. so why in the guide it's said +8/+8 ? ..

[LoneKnave]

ICN wrote:

A Kensai with a one level dip in Swashbuckler seems like it could be very good. Swashbuckler Finesse + Kensai Weapon Focus + Slashing Grace gives the benefits of Dervish Dance to any one handed slashing weapon, while costing one less feat and two less skill points. At 11th level Kensai, when you can combine Superior Reflexes with Opportune Parry and Riposte, while using either your arcane pool or panache points (which recharge on a killing blow or a critical hit) to power it, makes you pretty nasty in melee combat.

Actually, I can see this go 2 ways. Either you are using a rapier, or not. If you are using a rapier, after Inspired blade you don't need to go Kensai, you can keep your armor and only take a 1 level hit to your spellcasting (instead of also suffering the Kensai's penalty). If you are not using rapier (I'm thinking Whip, personally), then you can get literally everything you need without dipping into Swash, and it'd only give you 1 extra feat; may as well dip fighter or something.

[kestral287]

The post you're responding to was written before Dex to Dam was an option for the rapier. Just saying.

[Lune]

WalterGM is still around.

[Dearen]

Dearen wrote:

Guide wrote:

Level 3: He’s got more health now, 21, about what a wizard has. He’s also picked up Dervish Dance and spellstrike; now his basic attack is a +6 to hit (+9 with arcane accuracy) for 1d6+4, and his spell combat allows him to make two attacks at a +8/+8 if he expends a point from his pool. The first is an attack with his scimitar that hits for 1d6+6, while second (via spellstrike) hits for 3d6 with Shocking Grasp, plus another 1d6+6 from his sword. Better than his Strength based counterpart. His AC is also statically higher still, at an 18.

Sure I've lost something .. but .. I've basic attack at +6 .. with Arcane accuracy I reach +9 .. using spell combat I've a -2 penalty on attack roll .. that's a final +7/+7 for me .. so why in the guide it's said +8/+8 ? ..

Also don't understand Level 6 of Dervish build

Guide wrote:

Level 6: At level 4 he increased his Constitution to 12 to help his weak HP pool and by now he probably has a +1 weapon. His health is comparable to the Str magus, 45, and he has picked up Spell Penetration and Weapon Focus. Since he is spellstriking his touch spells, they all get a +1 to hit from Weapon Focus. Now his Arcane Accuracy pool enhanced scimitar is keen, and when he takes attacks with spell combat, after arcane strike, he hits for two attacks at +14/+14, both that can crit on a 15-20, with one hitting for 1d6+7 and the other hitting for 6d6+7 (including shocking grip). Again, this is a pretty hefty damage output, especially on a crit. He can also power attack now to pump those numbers higher. Also his defenses have gone up, with the addition of Mirror Image and probably a deflection or natural armor bonus, making his AC around a 20 or 21, not to mention his images.

At level 6 a magus has BAB +4, with dex 18 another +4, Weapon focus +1, +1 Weapon = Total +10 .. with Arcane Accuracy +13 .. -2 Spell combat +11 .. so why it's said +14/+14 ? ..

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

@ Dearen

For the first part, your missing the Magus' ability to enchant his weapon for another +1. Or assume his weapon is masterwork. Either is fine. (4 dex + 2 bab + 3 arcane accuracy + 1 enchanted = 10, -2 spell combat = 8)

At level 6, he's actually attacking with a +2 keen weapon, so there's 1 more atk to add to your calculation for up to +12.

Now, he hasn't updated his guide in a long while, it's kinda pointless to try and correct it at this point.

[Dearen]

Ahhhhhhh ok .. I've missed the weapon enhancement via arcane pool .. Tnx Frodo ..
so Lev3 Guide is correct
Lev6 still miss something .. BAB +4, DEX +4, Weapon Focus +1, +1 Weapon = 10 = Basic Attack .. with 1 arcane pool I add a +2 enhancement to my scimitar (that stacks with the +1 already on the weapon) .. after I use another arcane pool to make the scimitar keen .. and finally I use another point to start Arcane Accuracy (+3 to hit) .. so Basic Attack +10, enhanced weapon +2, AA +3 = +15 .. with combat spell +13/+13 ..

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

If you really want to get nit picky, just take a look at the damage O.o

[CraziFuzzy]

Dearen wrote:

Ahhhhhhh ok .. I've missed the weapon enhancement via arcane pool .. Tnx Frodo ..

so Lev3 Guide is correct
Lev6 still miss something .. BAB +4, DEX +4, Weapon Focus +1, +1 Weapon = 10 = Basic Attack .. with 1 arcane pool I add a +2 enhancement to my scimitar (that stacks with the +1 already on the weapon) .. after I use another arcane pool to make the scimitar keen .. and finally I use another point to start Arcane Accuracy (+3 to hit) .. so Basic Attack +10, enhanced weapon +2, AA +3 = +15 .. with combat spell +13/+13 ..

You can't use Arcane Pool on a weapon more than once. In your example, you used it once to add +2 to it, then said you used it to add Keen - That second use cancels out he first use.

"If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends."

[Saving Cap'n Crunch]

I don't know if this has been brought up before here, there are a fair few pages. It probably has, but I have an addition. I question the use of high critical range weapons, but hear me out. Sure, double damage is nice. There are feats that augment your critical hits. Maybe I'm paranoid because I've done a maximum of 8 damage on a critical with my musket, and that includes Point-Blank Shot. But from what I know, you don't auto-hit on anything but a natural 20. Burst weapons are generally not seen as worth it. Another point of controversy is my idea for a shield-based magus that isn't a skirnir.
It would have been a skirnir, but I didn't want to lose spell combat until level 8. I liked the idea of Flamboyant Arcana and Arcane Deed (Precise Strike) as has been discussed. I didn't want to be Dex-based, and I obviously wouldn't take Slashing Grace just for the first part. I also couldn't help but notice the lack of awesome piercing weapons, and DR/Piercing isn't exactly as common as it's counterparts. So tonight, I'm hoping to test my heavy spiked-shield magus. Since I don't want to clog this thread with irrelevant posts, anyone who wants to discuss it will have to go to Advice on Arcane Deed Magus (I can't seem to make it a link, just search for it, or can you find it by looking in my posts, I think).

[kestral287]

The high-crit-range weapons are because of Spellstrike-- mostly, the line at the end that allows the spell to benefit from the weapon's crit range (but not multiplier). While yeah, crit-fishing on its own isn't great, crit-fishing to double damage on a 6D6 or better attack... that's worthwhile.

[Saving Cap'n Crunch]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that, thanks.

[Kaouse]

Precise Strike is definitely a new go-to Arcana for me. At level 12, though, all Kensai should really be taking Arcane Deed again though, for "Evasive." Kensai + Uncanny Dodge = Pure Awesomeness. The free evasion and improved uncanny dodge are literally just gravy.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Wow... I didn't see that until just now Kaouse... dang....

[Gisher]

Dang, indeed! Thank you Kaouse!

[CraziFuzzy]

Evasive is a 15th level deed, is it not?

[havoc xiii]

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Evasive is a 15th level deed, is it not?

Its a available at level 11.

[CraziFuzzy]

havoc xiii wrote:

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Evasive is a 15th level deed, is it not?

Its a available at level 11.

Oh crap.. looked up the gunslinger Evasive deed instead - which is 15th level.

[Derek the Ferret]

Just for the record: a swift action takes the same slot as an immediate action.
To quote the Core Rulebook (page 189):

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).

This was in reference to your (Walter's) comment on the critical strike arcana:

But there is a HUGE drawback to this arcana. It uses a swift action and not an immediate action.

[Abraham spalding]

Had a bizarre gonzo, perhaps even Ravingdork level idea of a build:

Fighter (Phalanx) 3
Duelist 1
Magus (Skirnir) 8

Use a wyroot Fauchard

I know what you are thinking -- dear gods what are you doing?

Phalanx allows us to use a polearm one handed. Combine with a level in Duelist to get their finesse ability. Go Skirnir Magus and grab slashing grace.

You can use a buckler with spell combat now (at 8th level when you get it) Dex to damage and to hit with a reach weapon that is one handed. Neither your shield or your armor give ASF so you are good there too.

Alternate build:

Fighter (Phalanx) 3
Magus (Skirnir) X

Same basic thing but strength based. Gives better AC for the magus due to shield usage. Consider two weapon fighting and going for shield feats on the rounds when you can't spell combat.

In this case I would consider either a heavy shield or a tower shield since neither counts against your spell casting.

In either case use the heck out of your arcane pool since with wyroot you can refill the pool with each critical hit (and the Fauchard is an 18~20 polearm which can use it).

The dex build is nice in that actually using spell combat increases your shield AC bonus where as the same doesn't happen for the strenght build until much later.

[kestral287]

A polearm used one-handed is still not a one-handed weapon for the purpose of Slashing Grace. No finesse for you.

I'm not really sure what the significant edge is over Skirnir X with a whip/shield combination though.

[Abraham spalding]

kestral287 wrote:

A polearm used one-handed is still not a one-handed weapon for the purpose of Slashing Grace. No finesse for you.

I'm not really sure what the significant edge is over Skirnir X with a whip/shield combination though.

The FAQ completely disagrees with you. How you use it is what the weapon is for relation to feats and the like.

The big bonus is the 18~20 crit range and using wyroot to abuse the heck out of your arcane pool. Wyroot is great for it's refill value to the Magus. What the magus lacks is a good tool for getting those crits with a wyroot weapon. The Fauchard grants great crit range with a weapon that can be made with wyroot and also gives reach.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

It's legal Kestral, due to this FAQ.

Fauchards are awesome :). You also accomplish the same thing with a 2 level dip into Titan Mauler.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

Abraham spalding said wrote:

Combine with a level in Duelist to get their finesse ability

I think you mean swashbuckler

[Abraham spalding]

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:

Abraham spalding said wrote:

Combine with a level in Duelist to get their finesse ability

I think you mean swashbuckler

As a matter of fact I do. I always do that -- fortunately most people understand what I mean even if I don't actually say it correctly.

Thanks for pointing it out though, that could have really confused someone.

[kestral287]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

It's legal Kestral, due to this FAQ.

Fauchards are awesome :). You also accomplish the same thing with a 2 level dip into Titan Mauler.

"How to apply the strength modifier and Power Attack and so on" is what the FAQ says. Okay, so if something says it works as A for a one-handed weapon and B for a two-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon works as A and not B. Simple enough.

Slashing Grace requires you to select a one-handed slashing weapon though, which is not the same thing. It's an entirely different matter from the FAQ. The fauchard is never "one kind of one-handed slashing weapon", as required by Slashing Grace.

The FAQ does mean that you can, for example, Spell Combat with a lance, which I'm happy to know I was wrong about, and the Phalanx Fighter 3/Skirnir 8 can Spell Combat with his polearm/shield combination just fine... but he can't apply Slashing Grace to it.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I see my error, for some odd reason I thought you were talking about precise strike ( and even then...) my bad.

Your right about slashing grace not working.

[Abraham spalding]

It is still an option because it is a one handed slashing weapon for you.

Just like you could take slashing grace for a bastard sword.

The only time you couldn't use slashing grace is when you don't have a shield.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

The problem is in choosing the feat. The weapon has to be defined as a one-handed slashing weapon when you choose the feat. If was worded "When wielding a one handed weapon", it'd work, but it specifically tells you to choose a one handed slashing weapon.

But if the DM says it's cool, it's cool.

[LoneKnave]

Worst comes to worst, you have to martial versatility it up with a bardiche (magus gets fighter levels anyway, so that's not that bad).

Fauchard sadly isn't listed in any weapon groups, or possibly could be a polearm, none of which are one handed for slashing grace to qualify.

[kestral287]

Really, just go Str-based with it.

You're not really all that efficient or effective compared to straight-Magus, unless you can actually start a game at level 11 (and even then...), but you're legal at least.

[Kodger]

I went to the guide and got a terms of service violation notice.

[FelisNoctu]

Got beat to the punch, was about to comment on that myself. I was referencing it a couple days ago, and suddenly it's been slapped with a service violation out of nowhere.

[Abraham spalding]

Probably related to an image.

[Anexor]

I've also encountered the error, and I was able to view it just a few days ago. Walter appeal your guide!

[Unien]

I managed to find a downloadable PDF version in Mediafire, but I don't have the link here right now...

[Teloric13]

Unien wrote:

I managed to find a downloadable PDF version in Mediafire, but I don't have the link here right now...

Please post link if you find it!

[Archmage Joda]

So, I know that the staff magus starts getting its major perks at around level 7, but what does one do up until that point? Can one do decent damage to fight then, or does it just suck til then, or what?

[LoneKnave]

It actually doesn't lose anything that important. You could play an elven magus with a rapier until 7 and be basically a normal Magus.