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How do you have fireball at first level? .-.
thank you, there was a some issues but ill list the ones that i feel that fall outside of personal taste (myself and the players arent really fond of the politics and influence system created but thats our preference) before going into story and other gripes
(please excuse the poor typing, im useing a tablet device)
** spoiler omitted **...
Lots of things there that I disagree with, so I'll wrote my opinions on stuff you commented on in spoiler tag. Note that I'm not trying to convince your opinion differently, but I really strongly disagree on lot of stuff, so I feel like pointing out what I disagree with.
Basically, I'm getting feeling that your players were expecting something else ._. Also getting feeling that you didn't yourself like the ap and you made that clear to the players as well?
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How do you have fireball at first level? .-.
thank you, there was a some issues but ill list the ones that i feel that fall outside of personal taste (myself and the players arent really fond of the politics and influence system created but thats our preference) before going into story and other gripes
(please excuse the poor typing, im useing a tablet device)
** spoiler omitted **...
Lots of things there that I disagree with, so I'll wrote my opinions on stuff you commented on in spoiler tag. Note that I'm not trying to convince your opinion differently, but I really strongly disagree on lot of stuff, so I feel like pointing out what I disagree with.
** spoiler omitted **
Basically, I'm getting feeling that your players were expecting something else ._. Also getting feeling that you didn't yourself like the ap and you made that clear to the players as well?
in response (and i also want to make it clear that this is not a personal attack or anything, just responding to the rebuttal)
as for telling them, one actually asked (after we were done) what would happen if they were not successful in influencing enough people. i told them the same thing happens. this is where the "punching nobel's - vote quimby" thing, came from.
as for the next point, im not sure what you define as "not passive aggressive" but if you title a side bar with a whiny quote, that kinda sounds passive aggressive, an alternate would be "if the pc's are stuck in the puzzle room" but thats really a small note, my main concern is that the puzzle itself is out of place and brings the pace to a jarring halt, and it sounds like the writer knew that but rather than rework the puzzle and improve it, took the lazy way out and dedicated a side bar to skipping it (something most GM's do already so why was this puzzle in particular singled out?) .
as for Dario, you like him, thats fine, personal taste aside though, without major GM reworking, he feel really out of place and his "foreshadowing" dose not feel connected to the plot in any meaningful way and in the end wont be remembered by the players in the long term
again its mood conflict and the dungeon almost feels like busywork to get back to the plot. i think a better scenario would have been to escape to a city trying to regain order, tracking down the information of the brotherhood through investigation (npc's in low places? i mean theses ARE the people we're fighting for after all, might as well get to know their plight)
as for railroading, well you said it yourself "a railroad is when players have only one way to solve problem"
but i would also like to add "event"s will play themselves out in a very specific way, regardless of the players actions"
and its not just background events, events that the players are actively involved in have predetermined outcomes, even if the players fail or actively sabotage, which when they catch on, are not inclined to try or be invested since if they do nothing, the plot continues without them. the pc's dont have to do anything during the first act and the goal is met.
your last point was more of a personal jab based on no evidence ( i could easily say that you are a fanboy trying to excuse poor writing, BUT rather than go down that road i would ask that you give me the respect that i have grievance with something for the reasons i have given and nothing more, and i will not assume that your replys are not based in personal slight)
that said, i did advise the players on the type of game and gave examples, as for personal feeling before the AP, ill answer that ive had a number of AP's that ive had doubts on before i began (carrion crown and reign of winter come to mind) but have turned into wonderful experiences despite missteps . this AP however had my players wanting to walk out, the reason they stayed was the massive GM re-writes i had to do mid session
please dont assume how i run sessions if you are not there and do not use that as the basis of a rebutle please, im hear to talk about why this was such a disappointment to me and my players.
again, ill make it clear if you personally enjoyed it, then nothing i say will make any difference to you. so please leave personal jabs aside in future
also again forgive the poor typing, still using a tablet
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Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to make personal jabs at you, my articulation isn't very good, but I was honestly wondering that. I got that impression from you mentioning there isn't really any reason why
But yeah, sorry again if I accidentally came across as harsh ^_^;
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Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to make personal jabs at you, my articulation isn't very good, but I was honestly wondering that. I got that impression from you mentioning there isn't really any reason why
** spoiler omitted **
But yeah, sorry again if I accidentally came across as harsh ^_^;
thank you for clarifying, ill take that into consideration in future
its wrieten when you first meet her that shes been playing the political game for 20 years now, but later has no idea what she will do when she gets the crown (and she will because it's practically been preordained at this point) but will figure it out later and when asked "what do we get for helping" replys with a very condescending answer. what im getting at is shes more of a prop, a "thing to put on a thing because reasons" and not the strong, politically minded leader we're expected to pretend she is (or hoping for), have her be some kind of firebrand, have some conflict about her, have her actually promise ACTUAL rewards and not chide the players for asking like shes already a queen, she would know the chips are down at this point and needs to get serious
sorry, this is again another personal gripe, but she was supposed to be the person the players rally behind and she's barely a person at all, the only thing that give her any kind of personality or interest is that she likes dogs.
maybe you'll have better luck with the escape room, but considering half the book already is non-combative at this point, i think the players would have already figured that out
its a really bad way to start a series of 6 books and the players have already written it off
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"You never have a second chance to make a first impression."
And it looks like this adventure gives the players their first impression of Princess Eutropia, so it could be a problem if she is initially unimpressive.
Of course, she may be in an impossible situation, as saying anything radical enough to appeal to players with modern sensibilities is likely to be a complete turn-off to the more conservative NPCs that she is trying to convince to make the relatively minor change of accepting a female monarch.
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Aaand that's why you run an AP once you have all 6 parts, once you know everything that there is to know about Eutropia and you can use her fully!
But, its NEW. And SHINY. Very, very, very SHINY.
Want to look away from shiny. Failed will save. Niiiiccccceeeee shiny.
I still stand by the fact I like it, even with what flaws that Damien pointed out. Admittedly I think you can fix them WITH more roleplaying (playing up interactions for example) and less with "this is important to me the player because it says so on my sheet." Or something like that. That's just my two cents.
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@Damian
Regarding Eutropia's lack of preparation - I think it is pretty clear that she has/had specific goals in mind with respect to abandoning certain traditions/laws. I don't think you can hold the events of part 1 against her; she was preparing to hold the throne in one or two decades time - the book events simply overtook her (and all of the nation).
Undoubtedly she will have had fanciful dreams of what she'd do once crowned; but concrete and real actions that are pertinent to the current climate and events of the empire cannot be made decades in advance. She has a realistic and frank appraisal of the situation. As we know she has been at this for some twenty years already. She's not just a firebrand that is all ideology, promises and ultimately lack of substance - she has her own strength of character and acts with thought and forethought.
Personally I find her honesty appealing; but that same honesty can be read as snide or aloof. We read into characters and their actions differently - but doesn't that just mean that we have the opportunity to present the characters the way we want?
Developer
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Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to make personal jabs at you, my articulation isn't very good, but I was honestly wondering that. I got that impression from you mentioning there isn't really any reason why
** spoiler omitted **
But yeah, sorry again if I accidentally came across as harsh ^_^;
thank you for clarifying, ill take that into consideration in future
** spoiler omitted **...
Eutropia's agenda upon reaching the throne is left deliberately vague so GMs can custom tailor to their group's priorities. Some agendas may appeal to certain groups while being intolerable to others, so we wanted to leave that portion of Eutropia's leadership as something for each game to decide best fit their needs and reflects the PCs' own interests and goals. We ultimately hope each GM will make their own Eutropia fit the interests and needs of their group, rather than trying to find the mythical "one size fits all" political figure.
But then if you read her responses as "condescending," then the problem may be with who's speaking rather than the words themselves, in which case you may want to review the advice in the introduction about creating your own potential heir for Taldor or even using one of the PCs as the heir to the throne.
thank you, there was a some issues but ill list the ones that i feel that fall outside of personal taste (myself and the players arent really fond of the politics and influence system created but thats our preference) before going into story and other gripes
(please excuse the poor typing, im useing a tablet device)
** spoiler omitted **...
Lots of things there that I disagree with, so I'll wrote my opinions on stuff you commented on in spoiler tag. Note that I'm not trying to convince your opinion differently, but I really strongly disagree on lot of stuff, so I feel like pointing out what I disagree with.
** spoiler omitted **
Basically, I'm getting feeling that your players were expecting something else ._. Also getting feeling that you didn't yourself like the ap and you made that clear to the players as well?
in response (and i also want to make it clear that this is not a personal attack or anything, just responding to the rebuttal)
** spoiler omitted **...
What “massive rewrites” did you come up with?
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@Damian Van Moorganrood -- I think you and everyone else who have issues with the book should make time and post a review with the appropriate star rating. Either wise everyone's going to think that it's 5-star material without any issues to anyone. I haven't read it yet, but given your problems with it, I can already tell that my group of murder hobos that hate roleplaying over roll playing likely won't enjoy this AP either. It's good to know this sort of thing in advance.
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Yeah Kevin, I don't think that murder hobos need apply for War for the Crown.
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Hmm, yeah, I think we'll have to agree to disagree, though
** spoiler omitted **
thats fine, I'm not trying to convince you to "dislike it because i do" im just discussing why it let me down. if you like it despite everything ive said, then great, more power to ya (though i do agree you might be a bit forgiving for such a lacklustre product, thats ultimately up to you what you will put up with)
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@Damian
** spoiler omitted **
im not sure what you gage as realistic or where you read that "she has her own strength of character and acts with thought and forethought" when the only concrete thing that is presented by her is that she'll figure out what she will do after she gets the crown (no plan, thoughtles) supprised the pc's would even ask for a reward (condescending and selfish considering that at this point she is in need of allies and not really in any position to bargin, 2 decades of political work would clue her into that as well as the fact that it's writen that she very much for the common folk, and would know that they would ask to be compensated) and the only part of her that can be gained by the pc's is that she likes her dog (personality shallower than a kiddy pool). besides, that conflicts with the idea that she molds her future based off the pc's actions, is she a leader with her own strength of character or not?.
in the end, you would have to re write her and ignore her contradictions to make her the "nice and thoughtful" person you described since that not was was presented in the book
on that topic, a lot of people keep mentioning that the book advises make her fit the group, the issue with that is thats only vaguely mentioned in the introduction and is something that presented in every book, I'm focusing on what was writen and presented so please bare that in mind. if you made someone else that worked for you, great, but the Eutropia presented feels like a lump of wet paper with the book demanding you to kneel to her because it says so.
as a suggestion, for such an important character, she should have been the first character to be fleshed out, any personality is better that this and its important since this is the character the PC's will be fighting for, the PC's will adapt to fit her. if the intention is that she will grow with the PC's, then dont make her a lvl 13 aristocrat/swashbuckler and and make her backstory fit with the idea of leader in need of guidence. at the moment she's all over the place and a pretty damn poor first impression
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Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to make personal jabs at you, my articulation isn't very good, but I was honestly wondering that. I got that impression from you mentioning there isn't really any reason why
** spoiler omitted **
But yeah, sorry again if I accidentally came across as harsh ^_^;
thank you for clarifying, ill take that into consideration in future
** spoiler omitted **...
Eutropia's agenda upon reaching the throne is left deliberately vague so GMs can custom tailor to their group's priorities. Some agendas may appeal to certain groups while being intolerable to others, so we wanted to leave that portion of Eutropia's leadership as something for each game to decide best fit their needs and reflects the PCs' own interests and goals. We ultimately hope each GM will make their own Eutropia fit the interests and needs of their group, rather than trying to find the mythical "one size fits all" political figure.
But then if you read her responses as "condescending," then the problem may be with who's speaking rather than the words themselves, in which case you may want to review the advice in the introduction about creating your own potential heir for Taldor or even using one of the PCs as the heir to the throne.
if that really was your intention to have the GM's create their own Eutropia then you should have made that very clear in the beginning,
and i mean at least a page detailing how important it is since she's going to be the thing driving the plot
failing that, ANY personality is better than no personality and so make up your mind, because if gm's have to write the story for you , then theres no real point to the AP
as for the response to my observation of her condescending remarks, i could also remark that its's a reflection on the person writeing the words as well, but im going to assume the writer may have not noticed how it may have sounded, so long as in future you dont assume that what i have is a personal issue, i would like to keep our interactions amicable if thats ok
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What “massive rewrites” did you come up with?
thank you, there was a some issues but ill list the ones that i feel that fall outside of personal taste (myself and the players arent really fond of the politics and influence system created but thats our preference) before going into story and other gripes
(please excuse the poor typing, im useing a tablet device)
** spoiler omitted **...
Lots of things there that I disagree with, so I'll wrote my opinions on stuff you commented on in spoiler tag. Note that I'm not trying to convince your opinion differently, but I really strongly disagree on lot of stuff, so I feel like pointing out what I disagree with.
** spoiler omitted **
Basically, I'm getting feeling that your players were expecting something else ._. Also getting feeling that you didn't yourself like the ap and you made that clear to the players as well?
in response (and i also want to make it clear that this is not a personal attack or anything, just responding to the rebuttal)
** spoiler omitted **...
without getting into spoilers
much of the first dungeon had to be redone and cut, the escape room was removed, ive had to throw out all of the backstory of Dagio and change the battle. several plot theads had to be imporvised due to a lack of substance from the book and invent more and more reasons for the PC's to continue with the plot as what is writen almost assumes the PC's have also read the book in order to follow and had to create a mini adventure to bridge the chapters together. by the time i had to intorduce Eutropia, i was done rewiteing everything and was just as frustrated as my players at that point.
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Man, you sure do spend a lot of energy on something you've decided that you don't like.
well i feel it would be rude if i did not reply to rebuttals and discussion pieces
as for your comment, well maybe it helps me feel better after being let down by the product. ive been collecting AP's for a while now and so far enjoyed it until now. maybe my grievances will be address in future if i air them in discussion?
but again, i must stress, these are my experiences and if you have a better experience than i did, awesome. i may discuss and challenge them but i cant take away the enjoyment you have :)
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See, the problem with airing your grievances but never airing your satisfaction - and that's exactly what you are doing, because I don't see discussion of any other AP in your posting history - is that it in no way brings you closer to getting more stuff you like.
It brings you closer to getting less stuff you don't like, but that might be other stuff you won't like.
It's a bit like if your teacher/boss would only give you negative feedback and never positive feedback. Which means you're down to guesswork and trial and error in order to find out what they really are after.
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See, the problem with airing your grievances but never airing your satisfaction - and that's exactly what you are doing, because I don't see discussion of any other AP in your posting history - is that it in no way brings you closer to getting more stuff you like.
It brings you closer to getting less stuff you don't like, but that might be other stuff you won't like.
It's a bit like if your teacher/boss would only give you negative feedback and never positive feedback. Which means you're down to guesswork and trial and error in order to find out what they really are after.
that seems a little unfair to me
I have actually mentioned my enjoyment of previous AP's in my posts, but it seems like what you are saying is because i have not posted a "positive" comment that it somehow is a bad thing
i would also like to point out the fallacy of your example, what we have in not a Boss/worker relationship, its a buyer/seller relationship
in that, the only feedback you are likely to get is criticism since if you do good work, most of the time you wont receive much apart from a thank you. i have kept my criticism constructive though, ive not resorted to personal attacks its the product i have grievance with, not the person.
your post would suggest that because i didnt lavish praise on the writers and paizo before on the boards (which i feel is a waste of time since its more preaching to the choir and rather tell people who may have not herd about paizo about how good it is) that my opinion and analysis is somehow meaningless
if praise is what you are after, i will mention again that i really did enjoy most AP's before this one, outstanding ones include Carrion crown and Reign of Winter
if you feel unhappy with my assesment then as ive stated many times before, this is just my opinion, if you enjoyed the product, then awesome, but im going to discuss my greviances on the board in what myself and my players felt about it, perhaps there are other who will have more positive things to say, and im sure the developers will take those comments and mine into consideration when going forward, hopefully to create a better product.
in short, its nothing personal dude
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Man, you sure do spend a lot of energy on something you've decided that you don't like.
That seems incredibly unfair to me.
Damian was explicitly asked why he didn't like this Adventure Path and he has responded.
His criticisms have been polite and he has justified them all. He is trying to explain his position.
I, for one, am quite grateful to him for having spent the time he has done in order to make his objections to this clear.
His criticisms have NOT actually changed my mind. I still very much want to play this. But that is often the case when I read reviews of something. Both negative and positive reviews are very useful in helping me to decide if a particular product will be to my tastes or not.
Damian, please keep posting your opinions on this.
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I'm running this AP next week so I would also like to see Damian's opinion on this. Thank you.
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The dire backpack also has a point: if you like a product go put a nice review for it... and praaaaaise it like you shoooooouuld! :)
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I wanted to touch on "the Eutropia problem" presented by Damian. While I disagree with many of his points, I do feel there is validity to them as well.
Hoof, this turned out longer than I thought. Spoilered to prevent page-stretchin'.
im not sure what you gage as realistic or where you read that "she has her own strength of character and acts with thought and forethought" when the only concrete thing that is presented by her is that she'll figure out what she will do after she gets the crown (no plan, thoughtles) supprised the pc's would even ask for a reward (condescending and selfish considering that at this point she is in need of allies and not really in any position to bargin, 2 decades of political work would clue her into that as well as the fact that it's writen that she very much for the common folk, and would know that they would ask to be compensated) and the only part of her that can be gained by the pc's is that she likes her dog (personality shallower than a kiddy pool). besides, that conflicts with the idea that she molds her future based off the pc's actions, is she a leader with her own strength of character or not?.
Eutropia is, in a sense of political power, somewhat similar to a royal bastard or fourth son. Prior to the vote to end primogeniture, she stands to gain nothing when Stavian III dies. She is not a male heir, and as such will not inherit anything. It is a bit unclear exactly how this works, though; with no male heir, will Eutropia become a figurehead to be married off, or does the royal line die out instead going passing rulership to a prominent senator or distant relative?
In any case, this is why I feel her lack of planning can be somewhat forgiven. She was never going to be in a position of significant power in the first place, and the vote to end primogeniture was really her first hope at becoming anything more than a figurehead with limited influence. I do agree that having what should be one of the most charismatic and influential NPCs response to "So what'cha gonna do once you're Grand Princess?" be a shrug is a bit disappointing, and I think the AP would have benefited from a short side bar on making Eutropia your own. Then again, perhaps there will be more hints towards this in future parts of the AP.
While I do agree with Damian on the above point, I must say I disagree that she seems surprised that the PCs ask for a reward, nor did I read her response as condescending. I will, however, state as a brief aside that I view "NPC response blocks" such as the one on pages 52-53 in much the same way that I do room description text: something to be read and inspire the GM, but not quoted verbatim, as this leads to an awkward dialogue. All that said, the PCs have been well-paid for their earlier services. They acquired several magic items, and they get paid 2000g to split for saving Martella in addition to the 500g each (plus an extra 150g if they all succeeded at their missions in chapter 1). Assuming a 4-player group, that's 1000g-1150g each, and at 4th level, that's a tidy sum. And on top of that, she promises them future payment for future services, so I'm not sure where Damian is getting the idea that she is surprised they ask for a reward. They got one and she promises more in the future.
Moreover, Eutropia is correct. The benefit of having a Grand Princess in your debt should be self-evident, and there isn't much benefit (aside from payment) she can provide if she doesn't take the throne. Her family holdings are locked away, and she cannot access it in the current state of affairs. And honestly, while she is desperate for allies...she is desperate for powerful allies. The PCs have at this point shown that they can hold their own in a relatively forgotten dungeon, and spearheaded the effort to save Martella. This shows they are resourceful, but they are still only level 4 PCs without major connections; they honestly could use Eutropia more than she needs them at this point. It simply isn't worth it for her to promise vast wealth or noble titles to what are at this point rank-and-file spies.
Finally, I have an opinion that may be unpopular, but it is my general belief about NPCs in pre-written material. It is on the AP to provide the background and vague personality of NPCs, but it is the onus of the GM to flesh out these NPCs and make them interesting. An NPC doesn't really need anything more than a few personality descriptors to latch on to - haughty, stoic, flamboyant, etc. - as well as a a short backstory to showcase why they hold the motivations they have. Again, I agree that it would have been beneficial to include a short piece stating that Eutropia is something of a blank canvas for the GM to fill in, but all NPCs are at least partially blank canvases. I would argue that no matter how well-written or interesting an NPC backstory or statblock, they will require additional work by the GM to "bring them to life." Breathing life into the world and its inhabitants is one of the greatest pleasures and burdens of being a GM.
In any case, I really liked the AP as it was presented, and my group has been wanting to play a more political game for a while, so I'm pretty sure I'll be running this one once the other books (and the Player's Guide) come out and I've a better sense of the full adventure. Looking forward to the next book!
Some times life is like a bag of holding...that wants to eat me. But at least this adventure isn't one of those things.
Eutropia's agenda upon reaching the throne is left deliberately vague so GMs can custom tailor to their group's priorities. Some agendas may appeal to certain groups while being intolerable to others, so we wanted to leave that portion of Eutropia's leadership as something for each game to decide best fit their needs and reflects the PCs' own interests and goals. We ultimately hope each GM will make their own Eutropia fit the interests and needs of their group, rather than trying to find the mythical "one size fits all" political figure.
<SNIP>
Then again THIS is something that should have been provided/explained in the first installment (or the still absent campaign Guide).
like putting up a list of stuff/goals she stands for with the indicator "pick some goals that fit your player interests besides changing primogeniture".
Like, say a sidebar ? Just to tip a GM's imagination off ?
.....this is also a reason why GMs actually want to have as much information about a campaign's major players so they can prepare and make the inevitable changes to fit their groups into a plot: unless of course, role-playing takes a backseat.
Last but not least : I find it disturbing that in the very first part of the AP, where character are at their most vulnerable and least resistant, a sizable part of said AP is spend in a "no access for replacements" dungeon and at levels 1 to 2 . Because honestly - everyone who dies in the "safehouse" also eliminates any personal influence, interactions or impressions gained from the preceeding social part. YMMV.
PS : I also agree on the railroading the player into the dungeon via the Senate Assistant badges, whatever their actions beforehand or possible locations or the forced "Escape Room" mystery. I like the conept of the story, but basically I am unhappy that I basically have to rewrite parts of the story from the very start to be more entertaining to my players
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You do realise that "goals of societal changes" are triggers for many, and even as much as listing a sidebar would cause any discussion about this AP quickly descend into "why Paizo is shoving their political agenda down my throat?".
You do realize that variable goals of societal change does not mean "forced SJW messages" or "hardcore conservative dogma" ?
Especially for people who are actually from another continent ?
let me see :
- taxation of the middleclass versus noble classes
- land ownership for small landholders/peasants
- Dilution/concentration of noble houses by abolishing titles/creating new ones
- enfranchisement for regional rule with local parliaments/councils Y/N
- rework of Taldorian bureaucracy - say based on merit, seniority or purchase of title
- privatization of tax-enforcement Y/N/specific model
- peace/war with neighbouring states
- tradepacts, opening of trade negotiations
- changes of the legislative system, authorities involved or legal punishment Y/N/specific model
- permission of specific religions/cults/faiths or their exclusion from the borders of Taldor
- regulation of the working week. Y/N/specific model
- legality of bloodsports Y/N/specific model
- structure of the military / navy
all of 10 minutes work
edited : spelling
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You think taxes, privatisation of the state, isolationism vs. globalism, regulation of religious freedoms, heck, regulating ANYTHING beyond the "don't tread on me" dogma, are not contentious issues in the US?
American politics do go beyond guns and same-sex marriage. You'll have a flame war over taxes and regulations just as easily as you would have over voting rights for women.
You think taxes, privatisation of the state, isolationism vs. globalism, regulation of religious freedoms, heck, regulating ANYTHING beyond the "don't tread on me" dogma, are not contentious issues in the US?
American politics do go beyond guns and same-sex marriage. You'll have a flame war over taxes and regulations just as easily as you would have over voting rights for women.
You will NEVER have a non contentious position - by definition a position defies alternativesAll of the above were from the history of medieval European and near-east kingdoms.
....but there is no reason for paizo to take a STAND on anything specific for the adventure, just a note regarding "decide on what Eutropia stands for" plus a short sidebar. Provide possibilities and look at whatever floats one's personal group of players/characters . Except perhaps "War against Qadira" looking at the proposed outline.
Also, if a product fails to provide necessary information for its proper use, is it still a good product ? IMHO : NO
fan-mileage may vary
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Huh. So the "political AP" doesn't actually say what politics you're pursuing? I'd have to admit that's kind of odd.
Having said that, I understand the rationale for it...any DM can fill it in with political agendas that they think their group will sympathize with.
Having said that, I also understand that there could have been a sidebar giving some ideas for springboard issues that the DM could consider.
My political agenda for the Princess is to have more Irrissen female representation! ;)
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I wonder how difficult it would be to tweak the campaign to make Eutropia and her agenda Evil, and thus make this a campaign for Evil PCs. Let's say, hypothetically, that her agenda was to put Qadirans in concentration camps and the PCs backed that...would most of the encounters and dungeons in the campaign still work, or is there some inherently Good activities going on.
Also, if I did this, I might change Eutropia's name to Dystropia, for the lulz.
Could also be interested in PCs only found out the Evil agenda at some point down the line, with a Crimson Throne type misdirect...but that might throw the AP off the rails if the PCs started to oppose her. But could be really interesting if the PCs started Neutral-ish, thinking they were backing a Good princess, and then gradually Dystropia tempted them with riches and power and they started slipping to Evil...
...now I'm actually getting tempted to buy this and run this...too bad the subscriptions have already rolled over to Book 2...if I could still pick up Book 1 as sub (with PDF included), I might jump on it after all.
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You think taxes, privatisation of the state, isolationism vs. globalism, regulation of religious freedoms, heck, regulating ANYTHING beyond the "don't tread on me" dogma, are not contentious issues in the US?
American politics do go beyond guns and same-sex marriage. You'll have a flame war over taxes and regulations just as easily as you would have over voting rights for women.
and this is why i tried to keep the focus on the poorly written faults of the AP and not connecting any real world commentary to it.
once real world politics are being argued, any hope of having constructive discussion or even seeing the product improve will now devolve into left and right politics with any argument being countered with "muh "insert slang for people who think differently to me" .please, going forward, focus on the quality of the product, not try and connect it to issues we have in our world.
I would prefer that Role playing games are something that conservatives, liberals, extremists and everyone else can enjoy together and not have another hobby that i like split
on a side note Gorbacz, this is not the first time you made comments that can be perceived as personal attacks, not constructive or designed to derail the argument. please stop
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Eutropia's agenda upon reaching the throne is left deliberately vague so GMs can custom tailor to their group's priorities. Some agendas may appeal to certain groups while being intolerable to others, so we wanted to leave that portion of Eutropia's leadership as something for each game to decide best fit their needs and reflects the PCs' own interests and goals. We ultimately hope each GM will make their own Eutropia fit the interests and needs of their group, rather than trying to find the mythical "one size fits all" political figure.
<SNIP>Then again THIS is something that should have been provided/explained in the first installment (or the still absent campaign Guide).
like putting up a list of stuff/goals she stands for with the indicator "pick some goals that fit your player interests besides changing primogeniture".
Like, say a sidebar ? Just to tip a GM's imagination off ?.....this is also a reason why GMs actually want to have as much information about a campaign's major players so they can prepare and make the inevitable changes to fit their groups into a plot: unless of course, role-playing takes a backseat.
Last but not least : I find it disturbing that in the very first part of the AP, where character are at their most vulnerable and least resistant, a sizable part of said AP is spend in a "no access for replacements" dungeon and at levels 1 to 2 . Because honestly - everyone who dies in the "safehouse" also eliminates any personal influence, interactions or impressions gained from the preceeding social part. YMMV.
PS : I also agree on the railroading the player into the dungeon via the Senate Assistant badges, whatever their actions beforehand or possible locations or the forced "Escape Room" mystery. I like the conept of the story, but basically I am unhappy that I basically have to rewrite parts of the story from the very start to be more entertaining to my players
my thoughts exactly
the player death in the dungeon is also actually a big oversight as well. thankfully i didnt happen in my game but it's a concern and if this is something that is for "new GM's"this is quite a road block to get pass that the book dose not address.
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I wanted to touch on "the Eutropia problem" presented by Damian. While I disagree with many of his points, I do feel there is validity to them as well.
Hoof, this turned out longer than I thought. Spoilered to prevent page-stretchin'.
** spoiler omitted **...
"Moreover, Eutropia is correct. The benefit of having a Grand Princess in your debt should be self-evident, and there isn't much benefit (aside from payment) she can provide if she doesn't take the throne. Her family holdings are locked away, and she cannot access it in the current state of affairs. And honestly, while she is desperate for allies...she is desperate for powerful allies. The PCs have at this point shown that they can hold their own in a relatively forgotten dungeon, and spearheaded the effort to save Martella. This shows they are resourceful, but they are still only level 4 PCs without major connections; they honestly could use Eutropia more than she needs them at this point. It simply isn't worth it for her to promise vast wealth or noble titles to what are at this point rank-and-file spies."
sounds fine until you apply a little thought, so how about i reprase the question
"why should we support you and not just go to the your enemys, tell them where you are and be rewarded when THAT new kingdom is formed?"
because they have access to gold/land/status that she cant offer and have access to power both in the courts (what little remains) and in the army. she's not an empress (not in any way that matters yet) and she knows she need powerful allies, so acting like a spoilt brat (and not an intelligent person who supposedly was able to toy and lead anyone on the sennete for 20 years (yes i will harp on that, if she's supposed to be smart, dont write her like an idiot))
to the people she needs help from is not going to endear her unless the GM re writes things (that the book is very vague about) of if the GM states "but thou must"
(even the part where if the PC's refuse the adventure ends but she lets them go, no ill will. let a bunch of people who know who you are, where you are, and have a possible insentive to make profit from telling your enemys that information? really!? )
as for the the gold and collections up until that point, i would like to point out that the payments from Martella dont really inspire loyalty unless theres a better incentive (so far as i can tell, aside from the money and a general "rescue the damsel" trope, theres no real reason why the PC's are even involved with her) and the stuff gained from escaping the dungeon is not a payment, that spoils gained (i.e stolen), dont confuse the two.
as for your opinion, fine its your opinion but in previous AP's there was a lot more effort put into giving the NPC's details, motavations and character. you still have to put in the effort to bring that to life though, but its a better guide for doing so, what was presented in this book is a lack of that effort. and that gets to me more than anything.
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As someone who has yet to read the AP book itself (as I'm a proud and leisurely player-in-waiting that would prefer a lack of explicit foreknowledge [in direct spite of my want to delve headfirst into the fray!]) — please take any commentary going forwards with a pinch of salt. That said: I do, however, feel need to address one particular point that's been raised:
sounds fine until you apply a little thought, so how about i reprase the question
"why should we support you and not just go to the your enemys, tell them where you are and be rewarded when THAT new kingdom is formed?"
Ultimately Paizo and its staff cannot possibly hope to write for every possible eventuality and circumstance; it's simply not feasible within the limit of their page counts and schedules and, more importantly, it still wouldn't cater to every possible taste available. Broad strokes and assumptions are made for the sake of weaving a compelling story. Hell's Vengeance doesn't opt for you to throw your lot in with the Glorious Reclamation, as I recall, nor does it offer the option of candidly telling House Thrune to go f*## itself because you like being your own independent brand of Evildoer™ (...as far as I remember, at least). The logical stance in Hell's Rebels is, on a purely pragmatic scale, not even being involved in the plot at all because such an individual is either going to leave for greener pastures* or would conduct themselves in a manner as is becoming for a servant of the newly inducted head-of-local-government (who is as genre savvy as he is a complete a*$$#~~, the likes of which quite literally honors him a very special place in Hell). Similarly, at no point during Wrath of the Righteous are you given a written option for PCs to lay down their arms and declare, "Screw this, I'm going to [insert relevant Inner Sea resort of choice], good luck with this clusterf@@%" — because again, the AP makes the clear assumption that the PCs, for whatever reason, are invested in their campaign's cause.
As I understand it, War for the Crown's "Cause" of choice is placing Eutropia on the throne, along with all the trimmings of being a prospective member of her inner circle. The motivations, as ever, are open to player choice, leaving the details of Eutropia herself to be tailored by those same inclinations (as to make for a more rewarding experience when your party's hard work comes to fruition) and from a pragmatic standpoint is relevant for reasons already noted above. Yes, you can petition to serve another inheritor of your choice, but let's be real about this. This is Taldor; land of history, heritage, and influence. How many are going to personally hold a conversation with you—lowly novices of the social arts, barely trespassing the first stair of their chosen careers—and how many more are liable to view such individuals as little more than another expendable investment in the now rapidly-accelerating Grand Game of Primogen Thrones?** And if your party is fine with that—happy to sell their potential for smaller, faster gains? Then they cash-in their Calls to Adventure and you all find something else to play that better suits your preferred flavour of Roleplay. Not really seeing a problem.
[size=smaller]*My bard would like to attest that there are no finer lands than the bright plains of Ravounel, and therefore all such individuals are both wrong and mad.
**Of course you can weave whatever tale you like; I believe I've seen mentions of notes for alternative candidates, should you so choose. But then...Why not weave with Eutropia, as has already been implied to be the intent? (admittedly a sidebar would've helped with that, I'd bet, but eh; hindsight is silver, page space is gold, and being able to overcome both is a 9th level spell).[/size]
Sometimes I like to go to a store and find some ice-cream that is labelled strawberry. I like it better when it's got a robust flavour that I can add my own sprinkles and sherbet and wafers to, but it's still gonna be that yummy strawberry ice-cream taking center stage because I don't yet have my dream job of making my own ice-cream for a living (and my bank balance practically worships the brand anyway). I'm not quite sure what to say to people that expect it to be a tub full of Kyoninese Strawberries that through arcane shenanigans can be made to mimic their favourite strawberry-based flavour experience; other than they don't exist and that we couldn't afford them even if they did.
Doesn't bother me though. I've got ice-cream waiting for me in my freezer, and the general consensus from my nearest and dearest (who share similar tastes) is that after getting 1/6th of the way into their own tubs, they seem to think it tastes pretty good so far. Maybe needs a little sugar and cream to really make those flavours pop, but hey, what cook doesn't have that in their pantry?
That said, I hate chocolate ice-cream, and often critique it for tasting powdery or insubstantial...but some people really love that and can eat it right out of the tub without batting an eyelid. I'm gonna take a good guess that, since we're all talking to each other in the Frozen Treats section of the World Wide Walm*rt, we all love ice-cream. We're just possessed of different tastes and methods of customizing desserts to our liking.
...Man, I want some ice-cream now..
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"why should we support you and not just go to the your enemys, tell them where you are and be rewarded when THAT new kingdom is formed?"
The easiest answer is "For the glory of Taldor!"
Seriously, her ascension is the most likely to end in stability and improvement for a country that has seen stagnation and decline for centuries. Your PCs should have at least the barest sense of national pride.
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"why should we support you and not just go to the your enemys, tell them where you are and be rewarded when THAT new kingdom is formed?"The easiest answer is "For the glory of Taldor!"
Seriously, her ascension is the most likely to end in stability and improvement for a country that has seen stagnation and decline for centuries. Your PCs should have at least the barest sense of national pride.
There's also really nothing to sell. Eutropia has been trying to reach a council with Pythareus, and even if you leave Eutropia's meeting and travel to a place to send a message to him - or somehow locate a Pythareus loyalist - that message is going to be news of her previous location. "We met at this house in Oppara one time" is not a very profitable piece of information. If she wanted her location secret and the PCs refuse her offer, all she needs to do is walk out of the townhouse and find a new location.
Moreover...she's in Oppara, and she's trying to rally support for her claim. She hasn't fled the city, so she's not really in hiding. Pythareus is the one who left for Zimar to gather support. Even if your PCs are simply in it for the potential to gain political influence and money, Eutropia is their best bet at this point.
And honestly, I've read and re-read pages 52-53 many times and don't see any real evidence to support the claim that she's a spoiled brat. At worst, she is underprepared.
This is all from an in-game view, of course. There is the well-put meta reason Hourai lists above. Players should be encouraged to make a PC that will want to follow the adventure's path, whether out of loyalty, hope for personal gain, or something else.
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as for the the gold and collections up until that point, i would like to point out that the payments from Martella dont really inspire loyalty unless theres a better incentive (so far as i can tell, aside from the money and a general "rescue the damsel" trope, theres no real reason why the PC's are even involved with her) and the stuff gained from escaping the dungeon is not a payment, that spoils gained (i.e stolen), dont confuse the two.
I'm not confusing the two. If the PCs are successful in their initial Senate missions, they will get several magical and mundane items for gaining influence. While you could argue these are things the PCs earned on their own, rather than rewards, they never would have gotten into the Senate without being in Martella's employ.
Independent of all that is everything of value they found in the dungeon, which I agree should not be considered a payment from Martella or Eutropia.
My point was simply this: their work for Martella has been very profitable. This was meant as a rebuttal to your claim that Eutropia (ie, the boss of your boss) was "surprised the pc's would even ask for a reward". They were amply rewarded for services rendered, and they are being promised further rewards for further services.