Pathfinder Adventure Path #127: Crownfall (War for the Crown 1 of 6)

This is one of the few area's in Golarion that has never grabbed me. So I think I'm going to wait for the PG to determine in this is an AP I want to purchase......that alone makes my head swim....to date I have bought everything that has come out since the beginning....I must be getting old......

Ronin_Knight wrote:

nighttree wrote:

God's above I hope not. I do RPG to get away from "real world current events".....

Same here, bu I'm sure you've noticed as much as I have that Paizo can get quite heavy handed with their political messages in APs and aren't the best at subtle references.

Examples?

Sorry this took so long to reply, sleep and work took priority, probably the most blatant examples I can think of were certain NPC's in Wrath of the righteous which was outright stated they were written as they were to support paizo's political leanings, and to me at least that showed through in the quality of the writing, the other would be the Head Dino stating he will never allow a transgender villain because, if I remember correctly he either thought writing them as such in the current political climate was transphobic or at least a bad choice for writing.

So...I keep thinking my idea for a Winter Witch from Irrissen but is actually a defector from that place MIGHT work here...

You’re damn right it is a political statement.

Did you know that Cheliax is a metaphor for fascism? And they’re the bad guys (Boom! Politics!). I’m sick of people saying they don’t want politics in their RPGs. Guess what RPGs are writing, writing is art and art is political.

Have you not noticed that one of the most common themes of the Adventure Paths is rebellion and resistance against authoritarian regimes? Was that metaphor too subtle for you? Hell’s Rebels is literally about fighting a power hungry fascist. Jade Regent is about fighting to free Minkai from a narcissistic demagogue and his cronies.

If you think any AP is apolitical then you’re just bad at understanding metaphors.

You're conflating two different issues, I'm perfectly happy to run or play a game which tethers a general political themes or story Hence why I've run campaigns inspired by the Sengoku period and the court of Louis the 14th.

However, that is completely different kettle of fish to having an adventure where the NPC 'hero of the people' and main villain are both blatant stand-ins for opposing political figures. which is what I feear this Ap may become because of how one-sided and potent thee Paizo political leanings are.

Hence why I base villains on the likes of Nobunaga Oda or Cardinal Richelieu and not Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn, the former pair do not have a chance to start arguments at the table like the latter.

So...I keep thinking my idea for a Winter Witch from Irrissen but is actually a defector from that place MIGHT work here...

Haven't had the chance to get my hands on it yet but definitely sounds interesting, maybe have them pass themselves off as a member of the Ulfen Guard who were assigned to the queen, the alternate race trait that grants weapon proficiency would help with that.

Ronin,

That's one idea sure.

Well. Thank you for making yourself clear.

I'm not allowed to talk about current political climate as per the rules on the boards so, let's just say:

When I'm referring to themes of resistance against Authoritarian rule, and narcissistic fascists and their political cronies needing to be overthrown for the safety of all free people I'm talking about political figures more recent than World War II.

Treating trans characters as heroic figures is only political because trans personhood is treated as political because cisgender representation creates invisibility.

When art doesn't challenge the status-quo, then the politics of that art is support of it.

Positive representation of LGBTQA people is counter to the status quo. Until the that shifts so that trans-personhood is as invisible as cis-personhood, trans people deserve to be represented heroically.

Treating trans characters as heroic figures is only political because trans personhood is treated as political because cisgender representation creates invisibility.

When art doesn't challenge the status-quo, then the politics of that art is support of it.

Positive representation of LGBTQA people is counter to the status quo. Until the that shifts so that trans-personhood is as invisible as cis-personhood, trans people deserve to be represented heroically.

OK I've got a couple of different points to make on separate subjects so two long messages incoming:

In regards to the quoted statement and the statement by the Head Dino I mentioned earlier, I'm somewhat confused as I understood the goals of the LGBTQA+ activists was to hammer home the fact that members of said community are the same as everyone else and should be treated as such, A position I agree with completely, However, at the same time both you, Dudemeister, and Mr Jacobs claim that while this isn't the case that they as a group should not be represented amongst villains.

Surely if the idea is to show that LGBTQA+ people are the same as everyone else they should be found at all points of the alignment spectrum represented by well written characters, rather than what were, to me at least, the sub-par characters as found in WotR.

Maybe I've misunderstood something, quite possible as I'm not neurotypical and do sometimes misinterpret points particularly in the ever-shifting goals and lexicon of activism.

Right the thornier of the two issues out of the way:

I also have to say Dudemesiter that you seem to be outright stating that a work of fiction cannot be written without political intent and I both disagree with the idea and find it distasteful in the extreme. their are plenty of works written either purely for the purpose of entertainment or without seeking to impart an inherently political message, whether it imparts some other form of message is another matter entirely, I would say this lack of political message applies to the majority of the romance, horror and even a fair chunk of the fantasy genres.

I have to Ask Dudemeister do you honestly think that unless an author writes some form of denigration of the status quo in to their work that they should have it treated as support of the establishment? that would seem to do a disservice to creators as a whole, to espouse that they are incapable of setting their politics aside for the purpose of creating something entertaining. the only way I could see to justify that stance would be to claim that all expressions and indeed all views have to be related back to politics. If I've misunderstood please let me know.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Treating trans characters as heroic figures is only political because trans personhood is treated as political because cisgender representation creates invisibility.

When art doesn't challenge the status-quo, then the politics of that art is support of it.

Positive representation of LGBTQA people is counter to the status quo. Until the that shifts so that trans-personhood is as invisible as cis-personhood, trans people deserve to be represented heroically.

OK I've got a couple of different points to make on separate subjects so two long messages incoming:

In regards to the quoted statement and the statement by the Head Dino I mentioned earlier, I'm somewhat confused as I understood the goals of the LGBTQA+ activists was to hammer home the fact that members of said community are the same as everyone else and should be treated as such, A position I agree with completely, However, at the same time both you, Dudemeister, and Mr Jacobs claim that while this isn't the case that they as a group should not be represented amongst villains.

Surely if the idea is to show that LGBTQA+ people are the same as everyone else they should be found at all points of the alignment spectrum represented by well written characters, rather than what were, to me at least, the sub-par characters as found in WotR.

Maybe I've misunderstood something, quite possible as I'm not neurotypical and do sometimes misinterpret points particularly in the ever-shifting goals and lexicon of activism.

That probably deserves a thread all to its own because there is no short answer. I'll try to give it the cliff notes. Maybe it will help coming from someone else who is also neuroatypical.

1) Fair is not equal. Equality is the end goal, but people have to be treated fairly first.

2) Representation is dependent on the author. This has to do with power dynamics within society. A cisgender author writing a transgender villain is very different than a transgender author writing the same characters. Even if they wrote the exact same thing, word for word, the differing power dynamic between the two

3) Historically, marginalized groups have been represented more often in the villains category than the heroes. Much more often. This othering of the atypical is deeply engrained in media, so a number of authors and fans actively try to avoid that trend to give some sort of balance to the scales.

4) Relatedly, in a perfect world, yes we would have proportional representation of every group, majority or minority, within both heroes and villain. We, however, don't live in a perfect world, so we have to concious that the decisions made by authors can have a real impact on people.

So, once again we wrap around to the main point that I think people are trying to express about this AP (to try and stay on topic). All art is political. Especially art that hangs around the edge of the mainstream and works to embrace those who are not. Tabletop RPGs have always been the former and Paizo has always embraced the latter. The suggestion that RPG games should keep politics out of themselves is antithetical to the game's very existence.

Right the thornier of the two issues out of the way:

I also have to say Dudemesiter that you seem to be outright stating that a work of fiction cannot be written without political intent and I both disagree with the idea and find it distasteful in the extreme. their are plenty of works written either purely for the purpose of entertainment or without seeking to impart an inherently political message, whether it imparts some other form of message is another matter entirely, I would say this lack of political message applies to the majority of the romance, horror and even a fair chunk of the fantasy genres.

I have to Ask Dudemeister do you honestly think that unless an author writes some form of denigration of the status quo in to their work that they should have it treated as support of the establishment? that would seem to do a disservice to creators as a whole, to espouse that they are incapable of setting their politics aside for the purpose of creating something entertaining. the only way I could see to justify that stance would be to claim that all expressions and indeed all views have to be related back to politics. If I've misunderstood please let me know.

All art is a reflection of the artist. To be apolitical is in itself a political stance. It is possible to read too deeply into that stance... but it is also possible for that stance to have unintended consequences.

So does trying to create art apolitically automatically equate to endorsing the status quo? Not necessarily. Does it tacitly endorse the status quo, even if it doesn't intend to? Yeah, it does.

And I'd also argue that any story with a morale that can be applied to real life or a philosophy behind it is automatically political. To make a work that is truly apolitical, you'd need art that lacks both and frankly? Those stories don't entertain people. They have no teeth. So I understand where you are coming from with "stories that are written just to entertain" but those stories almost always have something to say, and that make them political.

This AP definitely will have something to say, and I for one am pumped for it.

Ronin_Knight wrote:

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Treating trans characters as heroic figures is only political because trans personhood is treated as political because cisgender representation creates invisibility.

When art doesn't challenge the status-quo, then the politics of that art is support of it.

Positive representation of LGBTQA people is counter to the status quo. Until the that shifts so that trans-personhood is as invisible as cis-personhood, trans people deserve to be represented heroically.

OK I've got a couple of different points to make on separate subjects so two long messages incoming:

In regards to the quoted statement and the statement by the Head Dino I mentioned earlier, I'm somewhat confused as I understood the goals of the LGBTQA+ activists was to hammer home the fact that members of said community are the same as everyone else and should be treated as such, A position I agree with completely, However, at the same time both you, Dudemeister, and Mr Jacobs claim that while this isn't the case that they as a group should not be represented amongst villains.

Surely if the idea is to show that LGBTQA+ people are the same as everyone else they should be found at all points of the alignment spectrum represented by well written characters, rather than what were, to me at least, the sub-par characters as found in WotR.

Maybe I've misunderstood something, quite possible as I'm not neurotypical and do sometimes misinterpret points particularly in the ever-shifting goals and lexicon of activism.

[[Good points, including:]]

3) Historically, marginalized groups have been represented more often in the villains category than the heroes. Much more often. This othering of the atypical is deeply engrained in media, so a number of authors and fans actively try to avoid that trend to give some sort of balance to the scales.

And building upon this, actively depicting people from said marginalized groups as heroes, leaders, and just overall upstanding people doesn't just convey their humanity to others; it can provide heroes and leaders in whom historically marginalized people can see themselves and be reminded that they are so much more than what the world around them often claims. When you hear "representation matters," it's the power of seeing someone who looks, speaks, or has lived as you do in media, showing that at least in this setting you aren't invisible or forgotten.

Spoken as a cis white guy who pursues positive representation with the knowledge he's not walked far in the shoes of many marginalized people

I haven't ever seen Paizo villain to be strawman representation of political beliefs, so I have no real clue why you guys assume the case to be here ._. Paizo villains are basically supervillains motivation and goal wise

I mean, if you guys are worried about fantasy version of certain person who must not be named, nobody would be able to take that seriously so I don't see anybody writing that :P

FallenDabus has done an excellent job of making my points for me.

I hope future APs will do a good job of presenting neuro-atypical people with the kind of respect you deserve as well. Awareness and allyship need to be intersectional, and there is a world of excellent, entertaining, amazing stories that can be told by embracing “politics”, and having a firm stance for what you believe in.

We’re at a point in time where polite disagreement isn’t a healthy option in society when one side of an argument often boils down to: “Why must I be reminded you exist?” Or even more sinister: “Should you exist at all?”

Besides skirting the Paizo messageboard prohibition on discussing real world politics, many of the above posts are also off topic discussions that Paizo prefer happen elsewhere (ie not in product discussion threads).

However, that is completely different kettle of fish to having an adventure where the NPC 'hero of the people' and main villain are both blatant stand-ins for opposing political figures. which is what I feear this Ap may become because of how one-sided and potent thee Paizo political leanings are.

Fantasy politicians can only by based on contemporary ones? How? What is your reason? To me, it sounds like reaching out to something that may not be there.

You mentioned the court of Louis XIV; that is one of Taldor's composites, so perhaps think along those lines?

So...I keep thinking my idea for a Winter Witch from Irrissen but is actually a defector from that place MIGHT work here...

Taldor, via that old Army of Exploration concept, having travelled all around the Inner Sea and beyond, is rich for non-native character concepts, and Ulfen (and by extension, an Irriseni kind of passing as from the Land of the Linnorm Kings), is certainly a more plausible 'outsider' character, thanks to the presence of the Ulfen royal guard and their special status in the country.

That said, playing an outsider in such a nationalism-centric AP might have downsides (less skin in the game, as it were, and people in the adventure questioning why an outsider like your character should have any say or impact on the future of their nation) and / or upsides (being an outsider might make members of opposing factions less likely to automatically dismiss your character, since they aren't automatically born into faction A or faction B, and could be considered to be a useful intermediary).

I love the idea of playing a Jadwiga winter witch or boreal sorcerer. How else could you play a character and be able to truthfully say that you are the great-grandson of Baba Yaga? :)

Ronin_Knight wrote:

However, that is completely different kettle of fish to having an adventure where the NPC 'hero of the people' and main villain are both blatant stand-ins for opposing political figures. which is what I feear this Ap may become because of how one-sided and potent thee Paizo political leanings are.

Fantasy politicians can only by based on contemporary ones? How? What is your reason? To me, it sounds like reaching out to something that may not be there.

You mentioned the court of Louis XIV; that is one of Taldor's composites, so perhaps think along those lines?

A fair point, as someone else mentioned it was the previous description which descibed 'dragging Taldor kicking and screaming' in to a modern political view that had me twitchy as it came onlinne at a contentious moment in real world politics if I'm remembering things right.

DeciusNero wrote:

Ronin_Knight wrote:

However, that is completely different kettle of fish to having an adventure where the NPC 'hero of the people' and main villain are both blatant stand-ins for opposing political figures. which is what I feear this Ap may become because of how one-sided and potent thee Paizo political leanings are.

Fantasy politicians can only by based on contemporary ones? How? What is your reason? To me, it sounds like reaching out to something that may not be there.

You mentioned the court of Louis XIV; that is one of Taldor's composites, so perhaps think along those lines?

A fair point, as someone else mentioned it was the previous description which descibed 'dragging Taldor kicking and screaming' in to a modern political view that had me twitchy as it came onlinne at a contentious moment in real world politics if I'm remembering things right.

The exact quote was about dragging Taldor into modern day - that is, Golarion's modern day. If, by your own admission, you are a person who struggles with indirect communication, ask somebody to help you parse such communication. If you want to improve your communication skills - don't do that on an anonymous gaming forum. It's like learning to swim in a pool full of sharks.

Gorbacz, normally I'd have assumed that was what they meant, I always prefer to assume writing about a fictional setting is purely about said setting, particularly when it's blurb. However, from what I recall, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong my memories not the best, but the blurb was, as best I can remember, released at a politically tumultuous time and coincided with some definitive changes to established lore about Taldan law and foreign policy and as bad as I am at indirect communication even I could notice the stance those changes took was the opposite to modern politics.

Gorbacz, normally I'd have assumed that was what they meant, I always prefer to assume writing about a fictional setting is purely about said setting, particularly when it's blurb. However, from what I recall, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong my memories not the best, but the blurb was, as best I can remember, released at a politically tumultuous time and coincided with some definitive changes to established lore about Taldan law and foreign policy and as bad as I am at indirect communication even I could notice the stance those changes took was the opposite to modern politics.

What's a "politically tumultuous time"? It's always somewhere. I'm having a politically tumultuous time since 2015 here, should Paizo be mindful of that? Should I read Hell's Rebels as Paizo's commentary to situation in Poland and Hungary?

What "changes to modern politics"? Which, whose changes, where? Why should I care about how Paizo products relate to those changes?

By the way Paizo plans APs in one year advance, so they got War of the Crown outlined, assigned and partially written well before whatever events you are alluding to happened. So it's more a case of coincidence, than anything else.

By the way Paizo plans APs in one year advance, so they got War of the Crown outlined, assigned and partially written well before whatever events you are alluding to happened. So it's more a case of coincidence, than anything else.

Honestly wasn't aware it was that far in advance, right I'll leave this be now sorry to have dragged it on so long.

No problem. Matter of fact, I think Paizo AP's are *planned* circa two years in advance and *announced* one year ahead.

Which, of course, does not stop them from piggybacking on any recent events if they coincide with AP's theme - if an alien meteor would fall on Earth just around Second Darkness was announced...

On one side (the lazy one), I do wait for this AP because I'm quite a fan for a cloak and dagger style of games. But on the other, I dread the work I'll have to put in to tweak it for my taste - to make the story even more complex and gray, so players would have to build their own political capital and rely on it, and not be pawns or junior partners to NPCs and their schemes. Not saying that original story wouldn't have this things, but I feel (no disrespect to authors here) I'll find them lacking complexity for my humble taste.

And sorry for adding my five cents to off-topic discussion, but I found a bit... personally disrespectful to say that all art is political, in one way or other. I of course think the statement was for "written word" in this case, but still... Paintings that I've drawn from junior school to college and are hanging on the walls of my and my relatives home walls don't have any political message and don't support in any way any status quos around the world. This, as their creator, I can confirm (as long as I or witnesses are alive/my written and authentical explanation exists).
However, it would make me smile to see anyone trying to find some message in my naturemorte (still life) of a kettle hanging in the kitchen.

P.S. Sorry for my English, not native speaker.

I haven't ever seen Paizo villain to be strawman representation of political beliefs, so I have no real clue why you guys assume the case to be here ._. Paizo villains are basically supervillains motivation and goal wise

I think its because by sheer accident they actively managed to create a group of people that yes do come close to reality. Stavian and his ilk have always been the type of villains whose motivations aren't at all that divorced from reality. They've never been more than egotistical jackasses whose only concern is wealth and power.

This is your friendly local moderator warning to circle back to the topic of the thread (product discussion thread for Ap#127).

A thing that strikes me as strange about this AP: from the blurbs of each path book it doesn't seem like Qadira gets involved at all, which disappoints me a little because civil war in a major state like Taldor would seem like an obvious invitation to meddling by neighbors, and history of Taldor/Qadira is pretty fraught. This is probably pretty silly to say sight-unseen, but I'd be okay with it if the writers had swapped out the planar-jaunt stuff with some Qadiran intrigue/combat.

A thing that strikes me as strange about this AP: from the blurbs of each path book it doesn't seem like Qadira gets involved at all, which disappoints me a little because civil war in a major state like Taldor would seem like an obvious invitation to meddling by neighbors, and history of Taldor/Qadira is pretty fraught. This is probably pretty silly to say sight-unseen, but I'd be okay with it if the writers had swapped out the planar-jaunt stuff with some Qadiran intrigue/combat.

It depends on how they are handling the weird shifting on continuity. Could just be that Qadira at the moment is more pissed off at the Pathfinder Society.

I imagine their might be some ancillary Qadiran intrigue involved in War Of The Crown.

This AP will be an AP. What it won't be, is everything, to everyone. I want to say 'lower your expectations' folks, but those would be the wrong words, as I know the AP will be awesome.

I guess what I'm trying to say is 'what could you possibly hope to gain by listing your gripes, fears, moans and strongly worded delusions about a book that has already been written?'

What anybody hopes to gain when discussing a movie, tv episode, book or comic pre-release: sympathetic ears and interesting discussion.

I hope this AP will be the one that lets me play Susan Ivanova as a Winter Witch type of thing. :)

I'm curious about the "neophyte spies" aspect of (what i think are) the PCs.
If i remember correctly, every taldan spy (Twilight Blade or something) has a normal "occupation" outside of being a spy, so theoretically every class should be possible to be played.
Looking forward to the players guide.

Twilight Talons are Andoran's espionage branch, Marco. Perhaps you mean Lion Blades?

Yeah, probably. ;-)

The february shipping thread is up,
shipping starts on Monday, February 12th and ends on Friday, February 23rd.
The players guide should hopefully fall into that window. ;-)

Street date is Wednesday, February 28th.

I gotta say that I'm really looking forward to this AP. Paizo has been CRUSHING it - since Hell's Rebels, I think they've just been outdoing themselves with these APs. I wasn't sure how this one would go, but the art on book 1 and the previews has got me super intrigued.

Just gotta find a group to play this one with...

A thing that strikes me as strange about this AP: from the blurbs of each path book it doesn't seem like Qadira gets involved at all, which disappoints me a little because civil war in a major state like Taldor would seem like an obvious invitation to meddling by neighbors, and history of Taldor/Qadira is pretty fraught. This is probably pretty silly to say sight-unseen, but I'd be okay with it if the writers had swapped out the planar-jaunt stuff with some Qadiran intrigue/combat.

Most APs are contained to a single country. Even influence from other countries is usually limited.

I would guess that in the "EXPANDING THE CAMPAIGN" section, there'll be a section on a Qadiran invasion/influence.

I would guess that in the "EXPANDING THE CAMPAIGN" section, there'll be a section on a Qadiran invasion/influence.

Probably, that's how it seems to be handled most of the time, I would just like that aspect to be integrated into the adventure, that's all.

I think one of the subsequent chapters could be really interesting if it dealt with 'this foreign power is attempting to influence the political order, they need to be dealt with for good or ill...

...wait... too soon?

Is there a player's guide planned for this one?

Yes, all the Pathfinder Adventure Paths have one. Just a matter of “when”, not “if” :3

I'm hoping when will be before the PDF comes out for this...

Likewise, I'm looking into the possibility of using this as my first GMing experience, because it sounds like the sort of adventure that I was looking to write, but haven't because it is hard to get motivated to put pen to paper. The player's guide will go a long way toward deciding if I do feel like running this, and I have to decide quickly because there are one, maybe two sessions left on our current campaign, so I feel kinda in a rush to decide.

Anyone have an idea when this one is being released? My group is eager to play it, but APs have a track record of being released anywhere between the middle of the month to the end of it.

Anyone have an idea when this one is being released? My group is eager to play it, but APs have a track record of being released anywhere between the middle of the month to the end of it.

According to the February 2018 New Releases & Subscription Shipping Thread, street date is February 28.

Anyone have an idea when this one is being released? My group is eager to play it, but APs have a track record of being released anywhere between the middle of the month to the end of it.

We aim to put our release dates on the last Wednesday of the month, however the July/August release dates can be affected by Gen Con and September - December are often adjusted to take into account the US Thanksgiving and winter holidays. Customer Service tries to have stickied threads in the CS forum to go over dates and what will be released each month. Hope that helps.