1E Cheliax Question: Abrogail Thrune II's Levels

In Inner Sea Magic, Abrogail Thrune II is listed as 2Ari/16 Sor. This 2011 book is set in, I think, 4711, when Abrogail Thrune is 19 years old. The Cheliax, Infernal Empire book confirms her levels (although it is set in 4715, making her 23 at the time). One of the themes of a lot of the 1E Golarion books is that Abrogail is young and inexperienced.

Does it make sense that she's already a level 16 sorceress (and has 18 class levels over all) at this young of an age?

If I were trying to explain how she accumulated so many levels so quickly in life (without really ever adventuring because she is royalty), what would a good in-universe explanation be?

If I was going to set adventures in 4711 (before a lot of the setting is disrupted by the constantly advancing timeline), would it make more sense to have Abrogail be less personally powerful?

Thank you for any help.

If I were trying to explain how she accumulated so many levels so quickly in life (without really ever adventuring because she is royalty), what would a good in-universe explanation be?

I would personally go with a mixture of innate magical aptitude, the best tutors they can buy, bribe, or bully, and a healthy dose of "because devils." She is meant to run an empire whose purpose, at least in part, is to spread the influence of Hell on Golarion and funnel souls from the latter to the former. It would behoove Hell to make that empire's queen as powerful as possible, while also having her binding herself to them along the way. She gets her empire, they get their souls, and literally nobody but them wins, which is how they like it.

Also, if you have access to the book, "For Queen and Empire" has a direct writeup of her stats, and also suggests that, even though she appears young and inexperienced, she is probably the most effective ruler Cheliax has had.

There's a description of her childhood as an endless gauntlet of intrigue, violence and machination that I imagine means the scions who survive the race to be the next imperial leader are always exceptional, furthermore Abrogail doesn't level up like PCs do. The story they want to tell is that she is both very young, and incredibly powerful for her age. What I mentioned above is a good in universe way to understand why, but going too far trying to figure out how NPCs level up, when they don't level up at all, is effectively a waste of time.

The story they want to tell is that she is both very young, and incredibly powerful for her age. What I mentioned above is a good in universe way to understand why, but going too far trying to figure out how NPCs level up, when they don't level up at all, is effectively a waste of time.

She's incredibly powerful for any age. A level 18 spellcaster is one of the most personally powerful people in Golarion. :)

I think I am struggling to explain to myself how someone could be level 18 at 19 years old under the mechanics of the rules as presented, when you're right, those mechanics don't really apply to NPCs. I have trouble acknowledging that NPCs and PCs don't play by the same rules, but that's kind of making a futile attempt to stretch RPG rules to be some kind of simulation of all life, instead of just the mechanics to enjoy being a party of adventurers.

In Abrogail's case, I do think it would make more sense for her to be less powerful in 4711 than she is 4715 and on, so if for some reason a party did encounter when she was 19, I would scale her back and have her hit her peak power later in life.

NPCs don't use the mechanics player characters use to gain levels. They gain levels as the story needs.

And even if she went from 0 level to 18th level in a few years, she's still way slower than a lot of PCs out there.

And even if she went from 0 level to 18th level in a few years, she's still way slower than a lot of PCs out there.

Ha.

Good point. I prefer campaigns that space things out over time (like PCs might start adventuring at like 18 and end five or more years later), but I know not everyone does that.

James Jacobs wrote:

And even if she went from 0 level to 18th level in a few years, she's still way slower than a lot of PCs out there.

Ha.

Good point. I prefer campaigns that space things out over time (like PCs might start adventuring at like 18 and end five or more years later), but I know not everyone does that.

And even in that period, you're looking at a shorter period than between the day Abrogail II took the throne in 4709 and the start of Hell's Vengenace (where we first had her show up on-screen). At the current point in the setting, she's been in charge for over a decade.

And even in that period, you're looking at a shorter period than between the day Abrogail II took the throne in 4709 and the start of Hell's Vengenace (where we first had her show up on-screen). At the current point in the setting, she's been in charge for over a decade.

Yes, it makes sense that she would be very powerful 10+ years into her reign.

It was the Inner Sea Magic book (from 2011/4711, when she had been on the throne just a couple of years I think) that took me aback. She had the same levels there as she did in the much later references to her levels and stats. Also, a lot of the books talk about how inexperienced she is and that struck me as odd combined with her very high number of class levels.

Inner Sea World Guide (also from 2011/4711) doesn't give her levels and it's my main source for Golarion, so I hadn't really looked at Inner Sea Magic closely (or at all) until recently.

James Jacobs wrote:

And even in that period, you're looking at a shorter period than between the day Abrogail II took the throne in 4709 and the start of Hell's Vengenace (where we first had her show up on-screen). At the current point in the setting, she's been in charge for over a decade.

Yes, it makes sense that she would be very powerful 10+ years into her reign.

It was the Inner Sea Magic book (from 2011/4711, when she had been on the throne just a couple of years I think) that took me aback. She had the same levels there as she did in the much later references to her levels and stats. Also, a lot of the books talk about how inexperienced she is and that struck me as odd combined with her very high number of class levels.

Keep in mind that she was unlikely to have started her stint as queen at 1st level.

Furthermore, the presentation of her at the very start as a "petulant teenaged queen" was an error in judgment that we were looking to fix anyway. It was nonsensical to me that an "inexperienced low-level brat queen" would be able to maintain her role as one of the setting's primary villains.

Furthermore, the presentation of her at the very start as a "petulant teenaged queen" was an error in judgment that we were looking to fix anyway. It was nonsensical to me that an "inexperienced low-level brat queen" would be able to maintain her role as one of the setting's primary villains.

Makes sense to me. Thanks for all the back and forth.

By the way, I think it's amazing that you still are so responsive on these forums. I've had a rocky relationship with this board over my time liking Pathfinder, but I've always appreciated how the designers interact with simple questions like this.

Thanks again!

Furthermore, the presentation of her at the very start as a "petulant teenaged queen" was an error in judgment that we were looking to fix anyway. It was nonsensical to me that an "inexperienced low-level brat queen" would be able to maintain her role as one of the setting's primary villains.

You guys did a great job with that IMO. Turning that foible into a deliberate affectation on her part really highlights the fact that she is meant to be a potent mage and political schemer. I'd say that there are probably graves littered with the bones of people who made the mistake from her first write-up, but she tends to turn her enemies into stone, so...

jscott991 wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

And even in that period, you're looking at a shorter period than between the day Abrogail II took the throne in 4709 and the start of Hell's Vengenace (where we first had her show up on-screen). At the current point in the setting, she's been in charge for over a decade.

Yes, it makes sense that she would be very powerful 10+ years into her reign.

It was the Inner Sea Magic book (from 2011/4711, when she had been on the throne just a couple of years I think) that took me aback. She had the same levels there as she did in the much later references to her levels and stats. Also, a lot of the books talk about how inexperienced she is and that struck me as odd combined with her very high number of class levels.

Keep in mind that she was unlikely to have started her stint as queen at 1st level.

Furthermore, the presentation of her at the very start as a "petulant teenaged queen" was an error in judgment that we were looking to fix anyway. It was nonsensical to me that an "inexperienced low-level brat queen" would be able to maintain her role as one of the setting's primary villains.

*Anastasia and her three levels whistles quietly in the dark*

James Jacobs wrote:

jscott991 wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

And even in that period, you're looking at a shorter period than between the day Abrogail II took the throne in 4709 and the start of Hell's Vengenace (where we first had her show up on-screen). At the current point in the setting, she's been in charge for over a decade.

Yes, it makes sense that she would be very powerful 10+ years into her reign.

It was the Inner Sea Magic book (from 2011/4711, when she had been on the throne just a couple of years I think) that took me aback. She had the same levels there as she did in the much later references to her levels and stats. Also, a lot of the books talk about how inexperienced she is and that struck me as odd combined with her very high number of class levels.

Keep in mind that she was unlikely to have started her stint as queen at 1st level.

Furthermore, the presentation of her at the very start as a "petulant teenaged queen" was an error in judgment that we were looking to fix anyway. It was nonsensical to me that an "inexperienced low-level brat queen" would be able to maintain her role as one of the setting's primary villains.

*Anastasia and her three levels whistles quietly in the dark*

Note that Anastasia is neither a "primary villain" of the setting, nor an NPC who has been part of the setting since day one of us publishing it.

What's right for one NPC is not automatically right for another.

I thought it was persona to make conspirators focus on each other while she consolidated her power and that she abandoned once it was obvious to everyone she was the main player.

Humbly,
Yawar

I've heard an explanation involving training in hell, basically months of demon gauntlet fights (perhaps in time dilation), combined with some levels from the contract with asmodeus. All designed to push her to the limits of human endurance.

That seems like it would do the trick. Ever since then I doubt she's had that much combat time, got to keep the queen safe after all.

I imagine when you're arguably the face of mortal contracts with Asmodeus, you get juiced up with diabolic power a fair bit. Between that and access to mortal and infernal tutors, Nidalese archives (the oldest in the Inner Sea), and the coffers of an entire empire, she had about as much help at her disposal as anyone could.

It is amazing how kingamker takes years, lot of aps take six months or one year, then Edgewatch makes you level 20 in three months as written apparently :'D

Yeah leveling up is very much just plot based