Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars (PFRPG)

This will be good. So good I'll buy Gancanagh a copy.

I'll gladly travel to the Nether Lands and personally deliver him a physical copy at the door (with a bonus VHS tape of Transformers movie, the animated one from the 80s of course).

Odraude wrote:

This will be good. So good I'll buy Gancanagh a copy.

I'll gladly travel to the Nether Lands and personally deliver him a physical copy at the door (with a bonus VHS tape of Transformers movie, the animated one from the 80s of course).

Best soundtrack. Love You've Got the Touch, which apparently was in the newest rendition of the game Shadow Warrior.

Gorbacz wrote:

Odraude wrote:

This will be good. So good I'll buy Gancanagh a copy.

I'll gladly travel to the Nether Lands and personally deliver him a physical copy at the door (with a bonus VHS tape of Transformers movie, the animated one from the 80s of course).

Best soundtrack. Love You've Got the Touch, which apparently was in the newest rendition of the game Shadow Warrior.

That soundtrack is so totally going into my Iron Gods playlist.

That soundtrack is so totally going into my Iron Gods playlist.

HA!

<_<

*yoinked*

Great Idea, my good bag.

Odraude wrote:

This will be good. So good I'll buy Gancanagh a copy.

I'll gladly travel to the Nether Lands and personally deliver him a physical copy at the door (with a bonus VHS tape of Transformers movie, the animated one from the 80s of course).

Could we please keep in mind that no matter how annoying or badly behaved someone else is, bullying is not okay.

I'll gladly travel to the Nether Lands and personally deliver him a physical copy at the door (with a bonus VHS tape of Transformers movie, the animated one from the 80s of course).

Could we please keep in mind that no matter how much I despise science-fiction in pathfinder books, I really like it in movies and products 100% based on science fiction stuff.

I just don't like it mixed together because it doesn't make sense they don't have lights or computers with so many intelligent mages in the world, if there would be that technology somewhere (in this case Numeria) the entire worlds would already be drowning in electric lights, mobile phones and computers from alien future times.

So it just doesn't make sense to me that mages one planet away still use candles and flying carpets.

Sorry, and now off to playing Zelda A link between worlds, I won't be bothering you guys for a while me thinks.

I am really looking forward to this one!

And I hope that James Sutter has at least one finger in this pie. (Not literally, though!)

Quote:

I'll gladly travel to the Nether Lands and personally deliver him a physical copy at the door (with a bonus VHS tape of Transformers movie, the animated one from the 80s of course).

Could we please keep in mind that no matter how much I despise science-fiction in pathfinder books, I really like it in movies and products 100% based on science fiction stuff.

I just don't like it mixed together because it doesn't make sense they don't have lights or computers with so many intelligent mages in the world, if there would be that technology somewhere (in this case Numeria) the entire worlds would already be drowning in electric lights, mobile phones and computers from alien future times.

So it just doesn't make sense to me that mages one planet away still use candles and flying carpets.

Sorry, and now off to playing Zelda A link between worlds, I won't be bothering you guys for a while me thinks.

But you ain't got a problem with apex predators which would require insane amounts of food to function rubbing shoulders with each other AND not devastating any ecosystem around them in 3 months, because that's what a clutch of dragons or a bunch of purple worms or a family of T-rexes do if they existed for realsies right next to each other, so close to abundant food. I won't even go into how giants or other Huge+ carnivores fit into that.

Transformers 80's movie soundtrack would rock for this one.

Maybe Mr. Sutter will at least design a few monsters in the book.

I wonder if the aliens that crashed that ship in Numeria were organic life or mechanical life. It would be cool to see alien life that are energy beings but then they wouldn't need a space ship.

I am glad this book is coming out before the Iron Gods AP.

Why yes I like a smattering of Hitech in my Fantasy world.

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks anyone?

I just the other day finished watching the 2002 series of Masters of the Universe. How SUITABLE

WANT!!!!!!!

My favorite part of Golarion? The fact that everyone gets their cake :)

Seems like I have been waiting forever for this place to get some love.

As I have commented before...I'm not a sci-fi fan, and I'm quadruply not a steam-punk fan....

That said, I'm really looking foreword to what paizo comes up with.
They have never let me down in the past....and if by some strange chance this is not to my taste...well then I have all of Galorian to explore, and can skip this little section of it.

If they represent the feel of "technology" in the same fashion as the Clockwork reliquary from the Shattered Star AP....I'll be as happy as punch to add this to my table ;)

I haven't played through Shattered Star so I'm not sure, how much Clockwork technology appears in it? I remember that miniature from the figure previews but have no idea at what point it appeared in the AP.

I haven't played through Shattered Star so I'm not sure, how much Clockwork technology appears in it? I remember that miniature from the figure previews but have no idea at what point it appeared in the AP.

I'm not so much looking at it being "clockwork"....I guess it's more a matter of asthetic than anything....

The only example that springs to mind at the moment is a scene from the most rescent Thor movie...
Thor's lady love is being examined by doctors, using very mystical looking contraptions...that she still recognizes the scientific principle behind.

They call it a "soul forge"....and she calls it a ...quantum something or other...

I guess I want any tech to still blend well with prodominant fantasy feel (shrugs).

I wouldn't mind seeing tech that looks like Alien/Prometheus, Thor 2, star trek, 1950's sci-fi, or whatever as long as it is fun and game mechanically simple.

Maybe we will see stats for a new playable race or a cyborg template.

nighttree wrote:

As I have commented before...I'm not a sci-fi fan, and I'm quadruply not a steam-punk fan....

That said, I'm really looking foreword to what paizo comes up with.
They have never let me down in the past....and if by some strange chance this is not to my taste...well then I have all of Galorian to explore, and can skip this little section of it.

If they represent the feel of "technology" in the same fashion as the Clockwork reliquary from the Shattered Star AP....I'll be as happy as punch to add this to my table ;)

I haven't played through Shattered Star so I'm not sure, how much Clockwork technology appears in it? I remember that miniature from the figure previews but have no idea at what point it appeared in the AP.

Clockworks/Thassilonian magic is different, and will thus look and feel different, than the advanced technology found in Numeria.

It won't be to everyone's tastes. But it's obviously something folks have been asking for for a long time, which is cool, because a Numeria AP is one I've wanted to do for a long time.

ANYway.

That's why we do so many different APs.

It is greatly appreciated. And I should say that there have been several APs and other projects from Paizo that I did not think would be good, and Paizo have proven themselves every time. What makes Paizo worth the investment is their ability to both capture the spirit of a genre and yet invigorate it with new elements. I expect the same will happen here. The only thing I worry is that there will not be enough technological elements to really use them outside of the AP itself - I would love to combine this with material from Distant Worlds!

Azazyll, exactly what would you call enough technology to use outside this AP? what kind of tech do you hope to see in this AP?

Baskin and Robbins makes all those flavors for a reason. That said, the whole Numeria thing is something I know I've been looking forward to for quite some time. Hmmm, maybe I can take the stuff on Alkenstar, combine it with Numeria along with other things and I think I have a weird mash up virtually any all science fantasy cartoon from the 80s.

Quote:

I'll gladly travel to the Nether Lands and personally deliver him a physical copy at the door (with a bonus VHS tape of Transformers movie, the animated one from the 80s of course).

Could we please keep in mind that no matter how much I despise science-fiction in pathfinder books, I really like it in movies and products 100% based on science fiction stuff.

I just don't like it mixed together because it doesn't make sense they don't have lights or computers with so many intelligent mages in the world, if there would be that technology somewhere (in this case Numeria) the entire worlds would already be drowning in electric lights, mobile phones and computers from alien future times.

So it just doesn't make sense to me that mages one planet away still use candles and flying carpets.

Sorry, and now off to playing Zelda A link between worlds, I won't be bothering you guys for a while me thinks.

I know no one on these boards is going to convince you otherwise, but that being said: what would make less sense to me is if all those flying-carpet-riding-mages one planet away spent all their time climbing up the evolutionary tech tree, over generations of lives, to accomplish feats that they could master using magic in a significantly shorter amount of time. Even if it took the first few generations of wizards a couple thousand years to invent 9th-level spells they still achieved Interplanetary Teleportation in a shorter amount of time than its taken us to go from the early dynasties of Egypt to the Moon (5,000 years give or take) and we still don't have interplanetary teleportation.

The other side of it is why would the few groups of people capable of inventing technology to make life easier for everyone bother to do so? They already have the tools (through magic) to make life easier for themselves, why equalize everyone? True, that would be desirable in a Utopian world but humanity has proven it is anything but benevolent, as a whole, traditionally. Why provide opportunities to the masses that might let them climb on top - better to just keep them illiterate, poor, or working 9-5 in a cubicle to barely maintain their mortgage. The most powerful in society don't get that way because they like to share.

And those "average" people whom would benefit most from greater technology (or easier access to magic) are also the same people who can't afford or don't have the capability or understanding to innovate such things for themselves anyway.

So, TO ME, it would make even less sense if a magic-heavy world DID bother to develop computers and whatnot on its own.

EDIT (accidentally posted before I finished writing): To bring this back to Numeria; a small group of people having access to alien technology from another (presumably less magical) world does make sense. Again, it's not going to spread too far beyond those who maintain control of the tools that keep them on top. And the rest of Golarion (which is mostly magic-heavy) isn't racing to catch up technologically because, again, they already have magic.

I do agree that magic and technology are an odd pair to coexist in a world where they would both supposedly evolve naturally from innovation. But they can easily coexist within the universe at large and obviously do as an inescapable fact since every human invention is a form of technology, including metallurgy. The streams are allowed to cross, and the concept of "foreign contamination" actually makes for some really interesting storytelling, despite what the naysayers claim.

Ahh...

Again the best release from Paizo comes out around my birthday. Thank you paizo, you know just when to schedule things so that I know I can get them.

This will be on my top 5 most anticipated release of the year.

I just don't like it mixed together because it doesn't make sense they don't have lights or computers with so many intelligent mages in the world, if there would be that technology somewhere (in this case Numeria) the entire worlds would already be drowning in electric lights, mobile phones and computers from alien future times.

That's not actually true, though.

Imagine a bundle of cell phones (say, Iphones) falling from the sky into planet X, where a primitive race dwells (let's say they have about medieval Europe level of technology across the entire planet).

For the intelligent humanoids in that planet, the cellphones are close to useless. They can't use them to call anyone - the infrastructure of wireless communication isn't there. Similarly, they can't read any Earth based language and so will not be able to decipher the meaning of any massage displayed by the phones. They will also probably think in a way alien to us - transversely, our thought process will be alien to them. Maybe something like buttons and a touch screen will be so unintuitive to them that even their best minds would never quite figure out what will cause a reaction from the phone and what won't. They might find some sort of use for the phone, but it wouldn't be what Steve Jobs had in mind.

Now, let's look at Numeria. A large star ship fell from the sky, and it's full of trinkets. Most of these there are very small number of, and recreating them is impossible. The alien mind that made them is so different than ours, that we can't comprehend what each piece of technology is meant for. And most of the items we find will probably relay on infrastructure we don't have - satellites, or even just a reliable source of energy to recharge them.

So no, the technology in Numeria is not very useful because it's so darned alien. And inconsistent. And sometimes non functioning. And even when someone figures out a use for something, it's probably not what the item is supposed to be doing. No technological advancement will come from that direction. It's just a curiosity for scholars, and an opportunity for adventurers.

And sometimes, the technology doesn't listen.

And the people who control it aren't exactly the kind to give away that power, and instead are using it to build themselves up. It's a fairly recent thing too, IIRC. The gearmen were only discovered under 2 decades ago.

Even today there is parts of Earth without processed water or eletricity. We are not there yet also.

Uhm, just look at the intelligence scores of Gelugon and Balors, they should be more intelligent than the aliens that build the alien space ships, they can spread it like wildfire.

This is why we still don't know how the piramids were built ?

Uhm, just look at the intelligence scores of Gelugon and Balors, they should be more intelligent than the aliens that build the alien space ships, they can spread it like wildfire.

"More intelligent" doesn't mean anything in this regard. You can have a higher intelligence score than Cthulhu and still not understand the mindset of Great Old Ones, for example. It's about the creators of the spaceship being so inherently different that no known being can understand them. And again, you could be the smartest Balor in history, you still wouldn't know what to do with an Iphone.

Gancanagh wrote:

Uhm, just look at the intelligence scores of Gelugon and Balors, they should be more intelligent than the aliens that build the alien space ships, they can spread it like wildfire.

"More intelligent" doesn't mean anything in this regard. You can have a higher intelligence score than Cthulhu and still not understand the mindset of Great Old Ones, for example. It's about the creators of the spaceship being so inherently different that no known being can understand them. And again, you could be the smartest Balor in history, you still wouldn't know what to do with an Iphone.

While I agree with most of your points, just figured I should point out that according to James Jacobs, the "aliens" who piloted the Numerian starship are human, so the "beings so inherently different" argument kind of falls apart.

And who's to say outsiders don't already know about that sort of technology? There are several cases where daemons for instance have deliberately spread harmful technology. I could easily see devils granting schematics for some technology just out of reach in return for a human soul.

Yeah I was a little disappointed to find out that the crashed alien ship was a human ship. But since the ship's greatest dangers are the machines and non-human organic life that it was carrying then it doesn't really change anything.

It didn't fall 'down,' it fell *back*, because it was never a space ship, it was always a time ship.

Ugh. While mixing technology and swords maybe be wahoo fun, time travel is not. From a neutral, third-party, relatively ignorant observer to this whole "Numeria" thing, that's deeply disappointing.

Time travel always blows. Terminator wasn't great because of time travel - it was great despite time travel.

I don't think this AP involves time travel, so you are safe :P

Lord Snow wrote:

Gancanagh wrote:

Uhm, just look at the intelligence scores of Gelugon and Balors, they should be more intelligent than the aliens that build the alien space ships, they can spread it like wildfire.

"More intelligent" doesn't mean anything in this regard. You can have a higher intelligence score than Cthulhu and still not understand the mindset of Great Old Ones, for example. It's about the creators of the spaceship being so inherently different that no known being can understand them. And again, you could be the smartest Balor in history, you still wouldn't know what to do with an Iphone.

While I agree with most of your points, just figured I should point out that according to James Jacobs, the "aliens" who piloted the Numerian starship are human, so the "beings so inherently different" argument kind of falls apart.

Ha. I didn't know that. Still, if Gancanagh is only bothered by the idea that the alien technology should spread around the fantasy setting, he can just ignore that and rule that in his campaign the spaceship belonged to some very alien aliens.

While I agree with most of your points, just figured I should point out that according to James Jacobs, the "aliens" who piloted the Numerian starship are human, so the "beings so inherently different" argument kind of falls apart.

This doesn't exclude an alien mindset, though. Or at least a vastly different thought process based on current scientific theories, technological advances, and the presence/absence of magic to spur different platforms of scientific thinking.

And who's to say outsiders don't already know about that sort of technology? There are several cases where daemons for instance have deliberately spread harmful technology. I could easily see devils granting schematics for some technology just out of reach in return for a human soul.

Certainly, but that possibility doesn't necessarily mean it has to be so. As powerful and knowledgeable as the various outsiders are, they aren't omniscient. It is possible that some things remain beyond their grasp, at least until they manage to wrangle it from mortals. And, quite frankly, that adds a lot to the dynamic between outsiders and mortals. That mortals are able to construct/invent/design and have access to knowledge that outsiders may not yet have.

Demons and devils, etc. have spent tens of thousands of years 'evolving' defenses against magic, ranging from spell resistance to various energy resistances and immunities. I doubt any of them are eager to have to start again at the bottom and proliferate lasers and plasma weapons or even firearms, among the races that they have worked so long and hard to individually laughably outclass.

Fiends spreading technology would just be handing their foes weapons against them. Most would probably prefer that the mortal races remain dependent upon magical sources of power (some of which, like oracular insights, witchly pacts and sorcerous bloodlines sometimes prove quite dependent upon fiendish sources and patronage), than encourage them to embrace technological solutions that are in no way dependent upon infernal or abyssal patronage, and against which they have no special defenses.

That certainly doesn't preclude there being *some* fiends that might enjoy that sort of niche, and attempt to corrupt mortal races through advancement of technology, but, for the most part, its in the best interest of fiends to keep mortals at least somewhat dependent upon fiendish (celestial, whatever) patronage, and to attempt to seduce and corrupt and control the actions of mortals through such endeavors. It's worked for ten millennia, after all, and even the most chaotic of demon lords tend to stick in their niche and not branch out.

In that vein, I could see many fiends being leery of alchemists and (non-conjuration) wizards, whose power is in no way tied to / dependent upon the fickle 'generosity' of extraplanar forces. Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Summoners, Witches, Sorcerers, Inquisitors, Oracles, etc. often, if not always (in the case of Clerics), only have powers because some other entity, in a distant dimension, allows them to.

In those distant dimensions, those otherworldly entities are rather keen on that monopoly, and that 'order of things,' in which mortals only have power as their distant patrons allow them to discover.

Wizards and Alchemists, almost as much as free-range technology, upset that 'balance of power.' (And by 'balance,' I mean, total dependence of the mortal races on otherplanar entities, which is exactly how they like it.)

IT BEGINS!

Let it begin! LET IT begin! LET IT BEGIIIN!

That first sentence sounds a lot like the intro to Thundarr the Barbarian;)

And that is entirely a good thing. :D

Thundarr's certainly one of the influences I keep in mind. And Gamma World. And Flash Gordon serial style scifi.

Szuriel's article in PF 71 indicates that the Horseman of War actively spreads weapons technology - the easier it is for mortals to kill each other, the better.

Numeria tech actually shows up in Kingmaker - a certain villain wields three or four pieces of it. My recollection was that the devices were generally odd looking, but otherwise worked as known magic items, and could be identified with detect magic.

I'd say the biggest reason Numerian tech doesn't spread is that Golarian lacks the facilities to do anything with it.

If you sent a laptop back to the 1600s, it would be pretty mind-blowing while it worked (assuming it wasn't immediately smashed!) but once the battery ran down that would be it. They'd lack any means to study it, and they sure as hell couldn't charge it or reproduce it.

You have a similar issue with the Numerian tech - sure, the stuff can be studied and even used, but actually building the infrastructure needed to make the things? Few people in Golarion could even figure out where to start, and the few that actually could most likely aren't interested.*

It doesn't help that the facility that would be the best place to figure out how to the make the stuff is overrun with murderous robots.

* Goofy tangent - the handful of people who could actually figure out the tech aren't going to be interested, because from their perspective it isn't good enough. If Nex was around, I could see him examining a gadget, understanding it, and then chucking it because he could do better.

I hope the Numeria AP reveals were(when) the space ship came from.

I dunno...looking at the abilities of most demons/devils, I don't think technology disadvantages that badly. If anything, divine magic is more deadly, since you can create holy objects with a lot better ability to hurt and evil outsider.

If outsiders seem to be at a level "comfortable with golarion", it's probably less to do with them not having access to the technology than simply the world not being of interest to demigods with those interests. FAZZGULTU, Demon lord of the internet, doesn't exactly have much to offer for a cult in Golarion.

I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing but I did want to comment on something.

If you sent a laptop back to the 1600s, it would be pretty mind-blowing while it worked (assuming it wasn't immediately smashed!) but once the battery ran down that would be it. They'd lack any means to study it, and they sure as hell couldn't charge it or reproduce it.

1600's Earth didn't have Int 24+ people running around in it. Nor access to magic that can help understand the object, what it does, how it works, and can aid in recreating it. Backwards engineering something is a whole lot easier in a place with all those things than in the real world.

1600's Earth didn't have Int 24+ people running around in it.

Assuming that older generations didn't have high intelligence because there of a lack of technology is misleading. We stand on the shoulders of giants—those who came before us—whose advancements allowed us to be where we are now. That doesn't mean they're dumber than us—in fact, the opposite. An example of ancient engineering: the Antikythera Mechanism. Our ancestors probably would find it ridiculous that we couldn't figure out its purpose and usage, much like we might view them as being less intelligent because they can't figure out a laptop. Any sort of scientific study requires observation, and our ancestors were just as capable of that as we are today, and there are numerous examples of that particular skillset. Would they have the means to recreate a laptop? No. But I'm pretty sure we'll see examples of what happens when a less advanced technology—not dumber, but less technologically advanced—gets a hold of future tech in this book.

I hope the Numeria AP reveals were(when) the space ship came from.

Thus spake Paizo: "It will!"

DiegoV wrote:

1600's Earth didn't have Int 24+ people running around in it.

Assuming that older generations didn't have high intelligence because there of a lack of technology is misleading. We stand on the shoulders of giants—those who came before us—whose advancements allowed us to be where we are now. That doesn't mean they're dumber than us—in fact, the opposite. An example of ancient engineering: the Antikythera Mechanism. Our ancestors probably would find it ridiculous that we couldn't figure out its purpose and usage, much like we might view them as being less intelligent because they can't figure out a laptop. Any sort of scientific study requires observation, and our ancestors were just as capable of that as we are today, and there are numerous examples of that particular skillset. Would they have the means to recreate a laptop? No. But I'm pretty sure we'll see examples of what happens when a less advanced technology—not dumber, but less technologically advanced—gets a hold of future tech in this book.

I'm well aware of all of that. I wasn't implying that anyone was dumb for lack of technology. There is no one on Earth now that has a 24+ Int either. As I understand it, the score 24 is well beyond what anyone on Earth has. I may be interpreting the score incorrectly. For whatever reason I have always understood the scores as 8-12 being the scope for an 'average' human being with 18 being the upper limit of what people can achieve, with only very few and rare exceptions being beyond that (hence the 18 cap before racial bonuses at character creation). This is probably the fault of 3.5 which had examples of the ability scores and listed folks with 18 dex as olympic level gymnasts, with 18 strength as olympic level weight lifters and so on, which suggested 18 was about the appex of Earth human ability.

DiegoV wrote:

1600's Earth didn't have Int 24+ people running around in it.

Assuming that older generations didn't have high intelligence because there of a lack of technology is misleading. We stand on the shoulders of giants—those who came before us—whose advancements allowed us to be where we are now. That doesn't mean they're dumber than us—in fact, the opposite. An example of ancient engineering: the Antikythera Mechanism. Our ancestors probably would find it ridiculous that we couldn't figure out its purpose and usage, much like we might view them as being less intelligent because they can't figure out a laptop. Any sort of scientific study requires observation, and our ancestors were just as capable of that as we are today, and there are numerous examples of that particular skillset. Would they have the means to recreate a laptop? No. But I'm pretty sure we'll see examples of what happens when a less advanced technology—not dumber, but less technologically advanced—gets a hold of future tech in this book.

Correct......

The reality is that everything we are now capable of is a direct result of the people of the past.

If anything, we are seeing a sharp decrease in average intellegence due to our reliance on technology.