Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars (PFRPG)

In game terms, an ordinary, extremely experienced, elderly person can have an Intelligence score as high as 28. Starting 20, 5 level bumps, 3 from age. So that gives you guidance for the smartest humans in the Pathfinder universe, and yes, I think that would reflect "real world" crossovers.

Another question this book could answer (and just to drop another sci-fi quote):

"What would Iomedae want with a spaceship?"

I can also see why demons/devils/angels wouldn't want those destructive weapons maybe (but still silly you don't want to understand the only weapons that can kill you easily), but computers (the thing that REALLY REALLY bugs me in pathfinder numeria spaceships) is something EVERYONE wants to use and understand, if you don't want to understand that you aren't worth the 20+ intelligence, then it should be 2 like an animal.

I also believe people today are somewhat smarter than people from the past, mostly because of religion.

Aaaand there goes an opened can of worms...

The edit is... better?

Iomedae wouldn't want a space ship but Brigh might or some other god related to invention, technology, machines, etc.

I also believe people today are somewhat smarter than people from the past, mostly because of religion.

I… nope. I can't. I sometimes think you are trolling, Gancanagh. There are way too many ways for this to not make any sense whatsoever. I would like to see you explain it, but I would need to organize some entertainment food first. ;)

And sadly, it is likely to be deemed off-topic. By all means PM me.

Lilith wrote:

DiegoV wrote:

1600's Earth didn't have Int 24+ people running around in it.

Assuming that older generations didn't have high intelligence because there of a lack of technology is misleading. We stand on the shoulders of giants—those who came before us—whose advancements allowed us to be where we are now. That doesn't mean they're dumber than us—in fact, the opposite. An example of ancient engineering: the Antikythera Mechanism. Our ancestors probably would find it ridiculous that we couldn't figure out its purpose and usage, much like we might view them as being less intelligent because they can't figure out a laptop. Any sort of scientific study requires observation, and our ancestors were just as capable of that as we are today, and there are numerous examples of that particular skillset. Would they have the means to recreate a laptop? No. But I'm pretty sure we'll see examples of what happens when a less advanced technology—not dumber, but less technologically advanced—gets a hold of future tech in this book.

Correct......

The perception that peoples of the past are less intellegent than we are now, is pure egotism, and false in the extreme.

The reality is that everything we are now capable of is a direct result of the people of the past.

If anything, we are seeing a sharp decrease in average intellegence due to our reliance on technology.

Nope. No decrease in intelligence. Firstly because it's an inherent characteristic of a human, not a skill. Secondly because "reliance on technology" actually means that our brains are stimulated constantly. Your brain has to handle more information in an hour than people would get in days in past generations. It certainly pushes us into training other parts of our brain better, but saying that it's making us dumber is a far cry from reality.

Gancanagh wrote:

I also believe people today are somewhat smarter than people from the past, mostly because of religion.

I… nope. I can't. I sometimes think you are trolling, Gancanagh. There are way too many ways for this to not make any sense whatsoever. I would like to see you explain it, but I would need to organize some entertainment food first. ;)

And sadly, it is likely to be deemed off-topic. By all means PM me.

My suspicion is that he is conflating a better/larger education with a higher intellect.

nighttree wrote:

Lilith wrote:

DiegoV wrote:

1600's Earth didn't have Int 24+ people running around in it.

Assuming that older generations didn't have high intelligence because there of a lack of technology is misleading. We stand on the shoulders of giants—those who came before us—whose advancements allowed us to be where we are now. That doesn't mean they're dumber than us—in fact, the opposite. An example of ancient engineering: the Antikythera Mechanism. Our ancestors probably would find it ridiculous that we couldn't figure out its purpose and usage, much like we might view them as being less intelligent because they can't figure out a laptop. Any sort of scientific study requires observation, and our ancestors were just as capable of that as we are today, and there are numerous examples of that particular skillset. Would they have the means to recreate a laptop? No. But I'm pretty sure we'll see examples of what happens when a less advanced technology—not dumber, but less technologically advanced—gets a hold of future tech in this book.

Correct......

The perception that peoples of the past are less intellegent than we are now, is pure egotism, and false in the extreme.

The reality is that everything we are now capable of is a direct result of the people of the past.

If anything, we are seeing a sharp decrease in average intellegence due to our reliance on technology.

Nope. No decrease in intelligence. Firstly because it's an inherent characteristic of a human, not a skill. Secondly because "reliance on technology" actually means that our brains are stimulated constantly. Your brain has to handle more information in an hour than people would get in days in past generations. It certainly pushes us into training other parts of our brain better, but saying that it's making us dumber is a far cry from reality.

As someone with Attention Deficit, having looked into this just a little (though I'm no expert, and am willing to accept any proof/links you've got that show otherwise), the constant over-exposure may well be part of developing that problem within us as a people in general (though not necessarily any specific) and certainly leads to us towards multi-tasking (which is what you seem be referencing) which is noted as being quite bad for our productivity - we simply don't work as efficiently as all that while doing so. That could certainly make us appear to lose intelligence.

Similarly, our reliance on outside sources means we can certainly appear to lose personal intelligence.

None of that says that we are, but rather that we're becoming more reliant on other things instead of relying on ourselves, and slowly eroding our own attention spans.

If I misunderstood your point, let me know!

I guess we are looking at it wrong. Let's take the starcraft setting. We have humans with technology, zergs with biotechnology and the Protoss with a psionic enhanced technology.

We could say that if Golarion appeared on the starcraft universe, they would be masters of magic "technology" and divine "technology". The Zergs are a good exemple that the technology way don't mean automatic better. We already have a "tech" outsider in the form of inevitables, maybe demons just think technology is too lawful.

@Tacticslion,

You understood me well enough :)

Anyway, there's a major difference between "appear to lose personal intelligence" and "lose personal intelligence". Besides, I don't know that a short attention span displayed by an average person in the western world today is making anyone look less smart than how a general lack of education would make most people from, say, 300 years ago to look really stupid. I would rather be educated with a short attention span than the other way around.

I guess one other thing - do keep in mind that in terms of game mechanics, a knowledge check with a DC higher than 10 normally can't be attempted untrained.

I'd also expect the check to reverse engineer a starship computer from scratch with no prior relevant training to be prohibitively high (35+), even for those rare individuals that could attempt the check untrained (bards and loremasters, pretty much).

The notion that someone without a single bit of relevant training could crack open a computer, look at the motherboard, etc., figure out what the heck they're even looking at (remember, Golarion doesn't even have microscopes), and then build working copies without the facilities that are needed to make any of the parts indicates a lack of understanding of how damn complicated computers actually are.

Even a fabricate spell still requires a craft check. Good luck with that!

And if, perhaps by an actual miracle, they actually managed to build one, they'd then need to program it.

I'd also expect that the crap on the starship is way more complicated than Earth technology, since it's several steps past our current tech (autonomous sapient killer robots, and actual nanomachines, among other things).

Now, pacifying the Starmount and actually be able to get in there to study it might make certain things possible. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Continuing the Campaign" for Iron Gods includes the possibility of the party, now having mastered Numerian tech, starting to proliferate it.

@Tacticslion,

You understood me well enough :)

Anyway, there's a major difference between "appear to lose personal intelligence" and "lose personal intelligence". Besides, I don't know that a short attention span displayed by an average person in the western world today is making anyone look less smart than how a general lack of education would make most people from, say, 300 years ago to look really stupid. I would rather be educated with a short attention span than the other way around.

It's the difference between innovation and invention; one's personal capabilities v. one's society's personal capabilities.

A very educated populous such as ours does not impact our intelligence - we aren't smarter because we're educated, we just know more because we have ready access to it.

For example, very few would argue that most people in general in the more "civilized" world are more physically fit/capable compared to those who, in the past, lived their lives doing physical things.

The appearance is comparable. Instead of doing, very often we are generating societies of people that are relying. This reliance doesn't actually decrease intelligence, but losing the ability to act, think, and do thoroughly (do to shorter attention spans) leaves us seeming less intelligent individually.

In other words, we are developing NPC classes instead of PC classes. Our ability scores might be similar, but our ability to handle situations diminishes, as we grow more reliant on things like infrastructure et. al.
(Though I would suggest that it's a bit weirder than that - most Western folk are probably commoners with an ability similar to the bardic lore ability due to our broad education.)

None of that is to say that the technology or society or civilization is bad. In fact, the advancement is both good and necessary - it's a moral and honorable thing that more people live now, and that their lives are easier.

But it does generate a kind of weakness, due to that reliance. Physically as well as Mentally.

I like education. I like the information. I would much rather have it (and our society) than not.

But there are defects and flaws with our current system compared to the ancients, and one of those is a tendency toward shorter attention spans.

Those shorter attention spans make it difficult for us to cognitively function as thoroughly as people used to. This is what makes us appear less intelligent. We know more, but can do less with it.

To reverse my analogy from before, imagine a fighter with a strength of 7 and a warrior with a strength of 18. The fighter is far less equipped to do what he's there to do, despite having the superior education/benefits/etc.

In some ways this is similar to having a short attention span. We've got more information, but can do less with it individually. Fortunately for us, we've got a metric ton of Aid Another benefits going for us.

For all this vaunted access to informational resources, we still have far too many people typing out "what is that?" and expecting/hoping others will answer, rather than using the same amount of resources to use Google and find out for themselves.

Frag Earth humans- let's get back to talking about Numeria!

My preference is not merely to spot a potential problem with the setting (such as 1400 years worth of snow piling up in Irrisen, or technology being *less* developed on Golarion than it was when the Azlanti were around 10,000 years go, despite existing in a setting filled with ridiculously superhumanly intelligent creatures and outsiders, or why the existence of at-will create water hasn't turned Thuvia and Osirion into lush verdant paradises), but to offer up possible explanations / solutions for why the setting is that way.

Hence my notion that many outsiders, and especially fiends, would be very leery of the spread of technology, which, unlike magic, only used by an elite few, who can be easily monitored and accounted for (and who quite often get their insights, if not their actual power itself, from outsider sources), is instead available to *anyone.* Even the possibility that a Rogue or Expert can Use Magic Device isn't as insidious a threat (or as likely to destabilize the 'have / have nots' social agenda of 'them what are gifted by outsiders will always have magic, while them what are not bowing to us will rarely, if ever, be their equals') as the spread of a form of 'power' that *anyone* can use.

Even that UMD-expert is dependent on spellcasters to *make* those wands, and many, if not most, of them are getting their powers from outsiders / external forces, one way or another.

There's lots of other things that don't make sense, and could be explained away in similar ways. Sonic energy effects affect *everything,* and have done for millennia. Wizards have been researching new ways to blow stuff up, also, for millennia. And yet, like idiots, they've been researching new ways to blow stuff up with, for the most part, *fire,* the most commonly resisted of the energy types (and the one most likely to run into foes that are totally immune to it). *Logically,* there should be hundreds of spells to produce sonic or force or negative energy or damaging light effects (such as searing light, sunbeam and sunburst), and a handful that do acid, cold, electricity or fire damage (since those four are the most likely to be resisted).

An in-game rationale for why that isn't so, could be that otherworldly patrons of bloodline sorcerers or clerics (whose deities have outsider servants) or witches (whose patrons have their agendas), etc. might not be too generous at handing out tools especially effective at damaging their minions, and so scorching ray is a fairly sexy 2nd level attack spell, and sound burst, not so much.

Not 'in 10,0000 years of demons, devils, fire giants, white dragons, etc. laughing at their fireballs and ice storms, no spellcaster ever thought "we need more spells they don't all resist, like sound burst and searing light and magic missile."'

It's a fine starting point to a discussion to say 'why hasn't technology spread all over the setting, since we know it's been around since the time of Xin, and has it's own patron goddess, and Aroden was, among other things, *the god of innovation,*' but, after that question is raised, repeating it or stressing how improbable it is without offering possible explanations gets a bit stale.

And wouldn't that be a kick in the pants. With the death of the god of innovation, the printing presses all broke down, and firearms have become unreliable and dangerous...

People of the present would look pretty stupid if they traveled back to the middle ages. Most don't know how to ride a horse, can't name more than a couple Saint's days, only speak one language, can't plow a field, spin wool, start a fire, etc. etc.

Completely incompetent!

technology ... *the god of innovation,*

One of the things that's worth pointing out is that Aroden isn't the god of invention (aka "new stuff") but innovation (aka "new ways to use old stuff"). It's a subtle, oft-overlooked, yet important difference... for another thread.

Awesome stuff, Set! :)

So, dropping the real-world-humans?

Well let´s not forget about the feat master craftsman, which doesn´t allow spell trigger or completion items, but still a big deal.
That´s already a revolution there.

Maybe 10k years ago sonic was the most common resisted energy, and fireball came about as a result?

I agree on the technical stagnation aspects.

Forget "human intelligence", bring on the robots;)

Nope. No decrease in intelligence. Firstly because it's an inherent characteristic of a human, not a skill. Secondly because "reliance on technology" actually means that our brains are stimulated constantly. Your brain has to handle more information in an hour than people would get in days in past generations. It certainly pushes us into training other parts of our brain better, but saying that it's making us dumber is a far cry from reality.

I agree, our minds are constantly stimulated by an endless stream of worthless data.

At the same time...most people of the youger generation would be dead inside of a week if the "lights went out".

I know more about Physics than Newton did, because I am aware of Einstein's theory of General Relativity. Does this mean that I am more Intelligent than Newton was?

No, it just means that more has been learned in the last 300 years or so. I sincerely doubt that I am more Intelligent than Newton despite the quality of modern education.

The fact that I likely would not survive long without modern technology does not make me less intelligent than the average person from the 18th century, either.

What we know, and what we've learned is not Intelligence, it is knowledge.

Removed a post. Please don't be insulting to other posters. Also, let's keep this thread about the product—please move any other discussions not immediately related to it elsewhere, thanks!

I guess one other thing - do keep in mind that in terms of game mechanics, a knowledge check with a DC higher than 10 normally can't be attempted untrained.

I'd also expect the check to reverse engineer a starship computer from scratch with no prior relevant training to be prohibitively high (35+), even for those rare individuals that could attempt the check untrained (bards and loremasters, pretty much).

The notion that someone without a single bit of relevant training could crack open a computer, look at the motherboard, etc., figure out what the heck they're even looking at (remember, Golarion doesn't even have microscopes), and then build working copies without the facilities that are needed to make any of the parts indicates a lack of understanding of how damn complicated computers actually are.

Even a fabricate spell still requires a craft check. Good luck with that!

And if, perhaps by an actual miracle, they actually managed to build one, they'd then need to program it.

I'd also expect that the crap on the starship is way more complicated than Earth technology, since it's several steps past our current tech (autonomous sapient killer robots, and actual nanomachines, among other things).

Now, pacifying the Starmount and actually be able to get in there to study it might make certain things possible. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Continuing the Campaign" for Iron Gods includes the possibility of the party, now having mastered Numerian tech, starting to proliferate it.

There are ways around many of these problems.

1. Use legend lore to allow one to learn about the creators of various devices

2. Use simulacrum to create (lesser versions of) these creators.

3. Then either use these simulacrum to create the devices if still powerful enough or use them to begin training individuals (PCs or followers) to do so.

4. With skill ranks in a craft skill, one can aid in the production of magic items to give skill bonuses to. Such as a +5 bonus for 2500 gp to a particular skill. Also, if one were to create a +2 intelligence headband (base 4000 gp, cost 2000 gp) one could make the associated skill gained to be one useful in the creation of items and made using the simulacrum as the skilled source. Using the headband would grant the skill at a number of ranks equal to the wearing character's hitdice. This could also be used to gain piloting skills of spacecraft.

6. Coupling skill ranks with high intelligence scores plus boosted intelligence (magic items up to +3 bonus, cognotagens +4 bonus) plus spells such as crafter's fortune (+5 luck) can go a long way to making very high craft skill bonuses.

7. Although not a part of Iron Gods, having a mythic character who has display of intelligence can add another +20.

Really high bonuses used in conjunction with a fabricate spell can give one the equivalent of using a CNC machine. :D

I think the necessary steps would require step by step making a number of devices (various machine tools, lathes, CNC devices) in order to create the workshop to build the devices. However, in general, I think the use of craft construct to create robots could be justified as learning the appropriate skills to use magic for many small scale crafts such as 2m soldering and building processors and boards.

So, yes, those are things I would like to engage in if adventuring in Numeria.

Starglyte wrote:

The part about mastering the tech of "an ancient alien empire" intrigues me. I wonder if we will get hints on what empire they are talking about. Maybe Dominion of the Black?

Its not the Dominion, though they are making an appearance. IIRC, though, James Jacobs did say that we will learn where the Starmount ship came from and who its pilots were by the end of the AP.

I'm really curious to know if they're going to tie in with the Vault Builders at all, although I suspect the VBs likely predate the ship, so probably not.

Ancient alien empire that built the Starmount ship: Vorlons?

Still badass: Susan Ivanova

Still badass: Susan Ivanova

We hold these truths to be self-evident.

I'd say the biggest reason Numerian tech doesn't spread is that Golarian lacks the facilities to do anything with it.

That, and until we hear officially otherwise, I still think Numerian tech runs on broadcast power:

MMCJawa wrote:

I would expect that in reality, we would see Numerian tech all over...even if you could produce/replicate it, that stuff would be valuable enough that there would be a thriving black market.

I have always assumed that most of the Numerian tech & robot critters ran on Tesla-ish broadcast power and the country's borders were established roughly where the limits of transmission range from the Silver Mount (or hidden substations/boosters) tapers off. It could be that the robocritters grow stronger the closer they are to their power source.

There are ways around many of these problems.

1. Use legend lore to allow one to learn about the creators of various devices.

I'm not sure legend lore would be all that useful in most cases. I imagine most technology from the ship is probably mass produced, fairly commonplace where it comes from, and is not really considered of "legendary importance."

There might be some key items- equivalent in tech to artifacts and major magical devices- that would count, but most of the stuff shouldn't garner any more notice from the spell than would a crossbow, or a dagger.

Then, too, even if you could garner enough info to make a simulacrum, it's kind of a big step from that to actually having the technology to create the materials they would need to create these devices. Frankly, a lot of the technology they use is so commonplace to them that they might not know precisely how to create the most basic elements of any particular device in the first place.

Just five more months and it will be mine.

The Thing from Beyond the Edge wrote:

There are ways around many of these problems.

1. Use legend lore to allow one to learn about the creators of various devices.

I'm not sure legend lore would be all that useful in most cases. I imagine most technology from the ship is probably mass produced, fairly commonplace where it comes from, and is not really considered of "legendary importance."

There might be some key items- equivalent in tech to artifacts and major magical devices- that would count, but most of the stuff shouldn't garner any more notice from the spell than would a crossbow, or a dagger.

Then, too, even if you could garner enough info to make a simulacrum, it's kind of a big step from that to actually having the technology to create the materials they would need to create these devices. Frankly, a lot of the technology they use is so commonplace to them that they might not know precisely how to create the most basic elements of any particular device in the first place.

1. re legend lore

2. re simulacrum
The point of the simulacrum is to give understanding and a source of the needed skills so that others can learn the skills needed to build a workforce. Also, as demonstrated above, with a character coming from WotR at level 20 (alchemist) with 10 divine ranks...20 ranks knowledge engineering +3 class (trait) +13 (easily) intelligence +13 intelligence (mindchemist) +20 display intelligence +6 skill focus = +75 knowledge engineering. the simulacrum can give enough info to reverse engineer an item. For lower level PCs, it would be necessary to nickel and dime.

3. re "nickel and dime" process
Making simulacrums of engineers will result in those who understand better than assembly line technicians. These engineers may also have enough history to know those who made breakthroughs. More simulacrums (of those who made the breakthroughs) to bring the PCs and workforce up to speed. Nickel and dime to learn what needs to be learned and how to do it until you build the equipment you need to have in order to build what you want. Spaceships would be too large a scale and need a huge support infrastructure, IMO. Weapons and maybe simpler computers, not so much. Note that the use of fabricate (and modify matter for psionic use) can be used to eliminate needed equipment such as CNC machines and the like and reduce fabrication time.

1. re legend lore

Considering the importance of the star mount, I think the creators of the star mount would be legendary enough.

I guess it all depends on how loosely you play with the wording in the spell description. IMO, while the creators of the Star Mount may certainly be legendary in the minds of the Numerians, the only information to be gleaned from such legends would be myths and speculations, not actual facts.

Conversely (and again, IMO), to the humans who piloted and worked on the starship, the creators of it were probably not any more legendary than your typical factory worker. The major innovators of certain technology (the stardrive, for instance) would certainly qualify as legendary, and if there were a living wizard of that human race to cast a legend lore spell (or using a device with similar capability), he could certainly learn more in-depth information about them.

Then again, one of the provisos of the spell is that you may be able to discern "information that is not generally known" and even incomplete and vague lore may lead to "more detailed information", so again, I guess it's all how the DM wants to treat the spell.

Lord Snow wrote:

Nope. No decrease in intelligence. Firstly because it's an inherent characteristic of a human, not a skill. Secondly because "reliance on technology" actually means that our brains are stimulated constantly. Your brain has to handle more information in an hour than people would get in days in past generations. It certainly pushes us into training other parts of our brain better, but saying that it's making us dumber is a far cry from reality.

I agree, our minds are constantly stimulated by an endless stream of worthless data.

At the same time...most people of the younger generation would be dead inside of a week if the "lights went out".

Not only is that not true, it's also irrelevant and has nothing to do with intelligence. Take a pet dog and dump it in a forest, it might not be very good at surviving because it never had to before. But it's not dumber than any wild dog.

If your PC is in this region, don't let them wear a red shirt or the GM may be tempted to make a joke-reference out of them.

Anyway, I'm excited about this.

Has any mention been made as to whether or not there will be included rules for this regarding the (power?) sword used by the Technic League captain in the ISWG?

I've been wanting that info for a long time now.

If it's consistent with the other region books, what we should expect is a timeline, a gazetteer of the regions and major cities, a synopsis of major adventure locations that mostly aren't covered by the AP, and then a bestiary section including both new creatures (and by creatures I mean ROBOTS) and sample NPCs.

New spells and technological items are more likely to be in the People of ____ book that'll probably be announced soon.

To bad all the magical clothing that will be found will be red;)

Anyway, I'm excited about this.

Has any mention been made as to whether or not there will be included rules for this regarding the (power?) sword used by the Technic League captain in the ISWG?

I've been wanting that info for a long time now.

This book's primarily about the land, its people, and its denizens, with a focus on adventure hooks and the like. "The Worldwound" would be a good book to compare it to. Not really any space in here for new items.

In this book, at least.

Hopefully I will find the sword somewhere in Iron Gods. :D

Not only is that not true, it's also irrelevant and has nothing to do with intelligence. Take a pet dog and dump it in a forest, it might not be very good at surviving because it never had to before. But it's not dumber than any wild dog.

Ah...I'm referring to actual knowledge...not inherent capacity, although they are seeing a decrease in actual capacity in younger generations as well.

Readers digest version of the studies.

But....back on track.

Studio Ghibli's Castle in the Sky crashed into Golarion. At least that's what the Gearsman always reminded me of.

Is it june yet;)

I take it radiation is one of those new hazards?

I take it radiation is one of those new hazards?

That would be an incredibly safe bet?

Does it have any motorcycle type vehicles in it? I heard it might,

Is it june yet;)

I take it radiation is one of those new hazards?

Given the bit in the "Beyond the Campaign" bit of WotR #6 about the...

Dragon78 wrote:

Is it june yet;)

I take it radiation is one of those new hazards?

Given the bit in the "Beyond the Campaign" bit of WotR #6 about the... ** spoiler omitted ** ...I'd say it's a very safe bet.

<grin>

Iron Gods most common endgame for player's......NUKE TO THE FACE!!!!

GM: Please roll 100d100.
Player (Scoffs): What's that supposed to be, damage?
GM: Nope, how many atomic particles your body was blown into.

I think you are all getting hung up on the downsides of radiation. Let's focus on the good side-

Like Mutations! (*,O)

Oops, meant to look at who favorited my post and ended favoriting it myself. I'm not THAT vain :P

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