Alternate Mythic Rules

Thursday, October 17, 2024

A couple of weeks ago we answered the question, “What is Mythic?” That answer spoke to the foundational mythic rules you can find in War of Immortals, but that doesn’t mean it’s the only possible answer to the question.

The base system for mythic characters tracks alongside your character’s level. At low levels, mythic power is explosive; though highly limited in its applications, it provides a significant change in outcome when it’s applied. As you level up, your mythic power becomes more predictable and you gain access to a wider array of possible applications, but the degree to which it shifts the dial of success normalizes somewhat, reflecting the character’s growth into a mature mythic figure capable of reliably battling mythic threats. This was not the only concept for how mythic rules could be deployed, however. While working on this project, we imagined several alternative ways people might want to experience the mythic system.

Art by Sandra Posada. The Starstone Cathedral full of spirits

Starstone Cathedral Transformed. Art by Sandra Posada.


What if you wanted to have an experience where you had one mythic character surrounded by a group of highly competent non-mythic characters, a la cult classic cartoon Mighty Max? What if you want the pacing of the mythic elements of your story to exist separately from standard level-based progression, either having your mythic power grow more slowly or instead having your mythic power outpace your level for more high-risk/high-octane adventures?

While we think that the mythic rules published in War of Immortals represent the ideal version of the system as we would like people to experience it, we wrote all kinds of alternate ideas that didn’t match that experience and didn’t fit inside what was already an impressively meaty book. Rather than letting those ideas gather dust in an untouched folder, we thought we’d share them with you!

On the War of Immortals product page, you’ll find a link to a web PDF product titled “Mythic Variant Rules” that gives you a variety of new ways to play with the mythic system in your home games! These rules aren’t necessarily as stable a table experience as the ones we printed in the main book, but we expect that the right group might find them invaluable and a great way to push the boundaries of the game. We’ve also made sure to attach the ORC license to this product, to ensure easy use of these alternate rules and ideas by any 3pp contributors out there!

Pop on over to the product page, preorder War of Immortals if you haven’t already, and download this free expansion product today! You’ll also notice that while we were putting this PDF together, we went ahead and slipped in a handful of clarifications onto the final page to make your battles in the War of Immortals just a little bit smoother and easier to use.

Michael Sayre (he/him)
Director of Rules & Lore

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Tags: Pathfinder Pathfinder Remaster Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Second Edition War of Immortals
Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I am still in the queue for the first breakfast of Mythic, but a second helping is much appreciated! *Adds it to the buffet plate*

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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A web expansion /and/ zero-day errata? *swoon*

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

These alternative rules are great, and as a Subscriber who was one of the lucky ones, GREAT JOB! This book is amazing, thank you! Also, the artwork is fabulously done (whoever did the page 68 scene should be commended).

P.S. I'm really hoping the "Darkened Forest Form" losing the +1 to attacks is just a typo that will be in the errata. Sad for it to lag behind Untamed Form due to the sustain.


Not sure who designed the Starstone Cathedral (perhaps Aroden himself?), but the art suggests the building is quite a mess!

Why didn't you not include this alternate rules into War of Immortal book in the first place though?

Will we see more mythic callings and destinies in the future?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Aenigma wrote:
Why didn't you not include this alternate rules into War of Immortal book in the first place though?
Quote:
While we think that the mythic rules published in War of Immortals represent the ideal version of the system as we would like people to experience it, we wrote all kinds of alternate ideas that didn’t match that experience and didn’t fit inside what was already an impressively meaty book."

(italics mine)

So cut for page space and because they were alternate rules and not the main experience.


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Aenigma wrote:
Why didn't you not include this alternate rules into War of Immortal book in the first place though?

Something other than this?

Quote:
While we think that the mythic rules published in War of Immortals represent the ideal version of the system as we would like people to experience it, we wrote all kinds of alternate ideas that didn’t match that experience and didn’t fit inside what was already an impressively meaty book.

Scarab Sages Director of Rules & Lore

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Anorak wrote:
I am still in the queue for the first breakfast of Mythic, but a second helping is much appreciated! *Adds it to the buffet plate*

Nothing wrong with hitting the salad bar while the line to the prime rib is backed up!


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Michael Sayre wrote:
Anorak wrote:
I am still in the queue for the first breakfast of Mythic, but a second helping is much appreciated! *Adds it to the buffet plate*
Nothing wrong with hitting the salad bar while the line to the prime rib is backed up!

In Mythic Pathfinder, you get salad and prime rib for breakfast!


I did not expect a Mighty Max reference.

Scarab Sages Director of Rules & Lore

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Kasoh wrote:
I did not expect a Mighty Max reference.

I literally had the episode "The Maxnificent Seven" in the recommended media for writers on the project.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:
Kasoh wrote:
I did not expect a Mighty Max reference.
I literally had the episode "The Maxnificent Seven" in the recommended media for writers on the project.

Heh, I don't know if its possible to share, but having freelanced for other RPG companies, I would love to see what those recommended media lists look like for Paizo projects. Always facinating to see how other people bake the cookie.


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I love the idea of an entire party with completely different boosts off the base game. She's Mythic, these two are using the beefed Free Archetype suggested here, and he's got a Relic! Everyone's busted but in narratively different ways! Hooray!


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Also bonus point on mentioning the cartoon Mighty Max! Loved that cartoon growing up! There's a person on Youtube who is trying to restore it btw:

Mighty Max Restoration Project


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Michael Sayre, I thought the Avenger was going to be the 2E reimaging of the 1E Slayer from how I hear it being described its nothing like the slayer from 1E. Slayers from 1E did not use magic.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Michael Sayer I have a lore Question for you, What kind of armor is the iconic Swashbuckler wearing it looks really cool.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This is really cool.


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I think the Avenger errata is actually worse than the book's approach to it. Needing to Hunt Prey then manually inflict off-guard just to get Sneak Attack damage on your deity's weapon makes it way too awkward and unwieldy compared to Hunt Prey being only necessary for the Ranger feats. Avenger has an issue of competing against Ruffian and this really holds them back in that fight.


KoriCongo wrote:
I think the Avenger errata is actually worse than the book's approach to it. Needing to Hunt Prey then manually inflict off-guard just to get Sneak Attack damage on your deity's weapon makes it way too awkward and unwieldy compared to Hunt Prey being only necessary for the Ranger feats. Avenger has an issue of competing against Ruffian and this really holds them back in that fight.

I don't got the book so I'm unsure if I am missing anything, but doesn't the gang up feat make the offguard aspect very easy to remedy? Assuming you're coordinating with your allies naturally.


Don't mean to throw shade, it's just an observation, but I find it funny that War of Immortals has day negative 13 errata while PC2 still doesn't have any at all, and certainly not for a lack of need.


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DMurnett wrote:
Don't mean to throw shade, it's just an observation, but I find it funny that War of Immortals has day negative 13 errata while PC2 still doesn't have any at all, and certainly not for a lack of need.

Well, in this errata there's a phrase "will also be released as part of the fall 2024 errata cycle". Which makes me a bit optimistic that there will be a "fall 2024 errata". Which probably would include more than just WoI errata.


Kilraq Starlight wrote:
KoriCongo wrote:
I think the Avenger errata is actually worse than the book's approach to it. Needing to Hunt Prey then manually inflict off-guard just to get Sneak Attack damage on your deity's weapon makes it way too awkward and unwieldy compared to Hunt Prey being only necessary for the Ranger feats. Avenger has an issue of competing against Ruffian and this really holds them back in that fight.
I don't got the book so I'm unsure if I am missing anything, but doesn't the gang up feat make the offguard aspect very easy to remedy? Assuming you're coordinating with your allies naturally.

Even with the Gang Up feat (which competes with Avenger's own Level 6 feats), you still need to mark a target to Sneak Attack them, unlike every other Rogue Racket. So if your allies aren't in proper positions, that doesn't matter. And Hunt Prey replacing a typical Rogue activity to inflict off-guard is bad, as you can't inflict off-guard on your own.

Again, Ruffian and Avenger are in an arms race (heh) that they really shouldn't be and this errata firmly places Avenger far behind. Avenger isn't built or designed around inflicting off-guard, it doesn't even get Debilitations. So needing to mark and find a way to inflict off-guard makes them incredibly unwieldy.

Silver Crusade

KoriCongo wrote:


Again, Ruffian and Avenger are in an arms race (heh) that they really shouldn't be and this errata firmly places Avenger far behind.

I don't think you're right. Being able to sneak attack with a D12 weapon is kinda nice. Doing something like +25% or more damage isn't something you can just ignore.

As is pretty much always the case, it will often come down to how much of tax the Hunt Prey action is.


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KoriCongo wrote:
Kilraq Starlight wrote:
KoriCongo wrote:
I think the Avenger errata is actually worse than the book's approach to it. Needing to Hunt Prey then manually inflict off-guard just to get Sneak Attack damage on your deity's weapon makes it way too awkward and unwieldy compared to Hunt Prey being only necessary for the Ranger feats. Avenger has an issue of competing against Ruffian and this really holds them back in that fight.
I don't got the book so I'm unsure if I am missing anything, but doesn't the gang up feat make the offguard aspect very easy to remedy? Assuming you're coordinating with your allies naturally.

Even with the Gang Up feat (which competes with Avenger's own Level 6 feats), you still need to mark a target to Sneak Attack them, unlike every other Rogue Racket. So if your allies aren't in proper positions, that doesn't matter. And Hunt Prey replacing a typical Rogue activity to inflict off-guard is bad, as you can't inflict off-guard on your own.

Again, Ruffian and Avenger are in an arms race (heh) that they really shouldn't be and this errata firmly places Avenger far behind. Avenger isn't built or designed around inflicting off-guard, it doesn't even get Debilitations. So needing to mark and find a way to inflict off-guard makes them incredibly unwieldy.

You only need to Hunt Prey if the weapon wouldn't qualify for Sneak attack already.

I find that trade off quite alright to sneak attack with greatswords.


shroudb wrote:
KoriCongo wrote:
Kilraq Starlight wrote:
KoriCongo wrote:
I think the Avenger errata is actually worse than the book's approach to it. Needing to Hunt Prey then manually inflict off-guard just to get Sneak Attack damage on your deity's weapon makes it way too awkward and unwieldy compared to Hunt Prey being only necessary for the Ranger feats. Avenger has an issue of competing against Ruffian and this really holds them back in that fight.
I don't got the book so I'm unsure if I am missing anything, but doesn't the gang up feat make the offguard aspect very easy to remedy? Assuming you're coordinating with your allies naturally.

Even with the Gang Up feat (which competes with Avenger's own Level 6 feats), you still need to mark a target to Sneak Attack them, unlike every other Rogue Racket. So if your allies aren't in proper positions, that doesn't matter. And Hunt Prey replacing a typical Rogue activity to inflict off-guard is bad, as you can't inflict off-guard on your own.

Again, Ruffian and Avenger are in an arms race (heh) that they really shouldn't be and this errata firmly places Avenger far behind. Avenger isn't built or designed around inflicting off-guard, it doesn't even get Debilitations. So needing to mark and find a way to inflict off-guard makes them incredibly unwieldy.

You only need to Hunt Prey if the weapon wouldn't qualify for Sneak attack already.

I find that trade off quite alright to sneak attack with greatswords.

That and you don't think Ruffian's selection isn't good enough for you. It's not that I don't get that its not THAAAAT big a deal, but given how much else you lose out with the Avenger package and Ruffian is a lot more bang for your buck AND Precision Ranger doesn't have NEARLY the same level of headache, it feels like an unnecessary action tax and punishing to melee Avengers.


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KoriCongo wrote:
shroudb wrote:
KoriCongo wrote:
Kilraq Starlight wrote:
KoriCongo wrote:
I think the Avenger errata is actually worse than the book's approach to it. Needing to Hunt Prey then manually inflict off-guard just to get Sneak Attack damage on your deity's weapon makes it way too awkward and unwieldy compared to Hunt Prey being only necessary for the Ranger feats. Avenger has an issue of competing against Ruffian and this really holds them back in that fight.
I don't got the book so I'm unsure if I am missing anything, but doesn't the gang up feat make the offguard aspect very easy to remedy? Assuming you're coordinating with your allies naturally.

Even with the Gang Up feat (which competes with Avenger's own Level 6 feats), you still need to mark a target to Sneak Attack them, unlike every other Rogue Racket. So if your allies aren't in proper positions, that doesn't matter. And Hunt Prey replacing a typical Rogue activity to inflict off-guard is bad, as you can't inflict off-guard on your own.

Again, Ruffian and Avenger are in an arms race (heh) that they really shouldn't be and this errata firmly places Avenger far behind. Avenger isn't built or designed around inflicting off-guard, it doesn't even get Debilitations. So needing to mark and find a way to inflict off-guard makes them incredibly unwieldy.

You only need to Hunt Prey if the weapon wouldn't qualify for Sneak attack already.

I find that trade off quite alright to sneak attack with greatswords.

That and you don't think Ruffian's selection isn't good enough for you. It's not that I don't get that its not THAAAAT big a deal, but given how much else you lose out with the Avenger package and Ruffian is a lot more bang for your buck AND Precision Ranger doesn't have NEARLY the same level of headache, it feels like an unnecessary action tax and punishing to melee Avengers.

Precision ranger only gets it on the 1st hit. Avenger Rogue gets it on every hit AND gets Ranger feats like twin takedown alongside the package.

Getting off-guard, as a rogue, is not that hard. And being able to Sneak attack with d12 weapons is huge.


Is your sneak attack damage reduced in any way as an Avenger? Going from d6s to d4s, for example?


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