The Godsrain Prophecies Part Nine

Wednesday, April 3, 2024

As I near the end of my review of the Godsrain Prophecies, I’m reaching the part of any research project that’s the most daunting—the conclusion. While it will of course be up to my Lady to decide what, if anything, to do with these prophecies, I plan to present her with the two or three reasons for their existence that I believe are the most plausible (other than them all being true, which I maintain is nearly impossible).

Unfortunately, this need for clarity means that I must dismiss (or at least deemphasize) one of the more exciting ideas I have come up with thus far: that these are a collection of the gods’ fears. I have noted throughout these pages that there are responses to the gods’ deaths in each of the prophecies that seem out of character, either for the other gods or their followers, but I don’t believe this lack of consistency is due to these being reflections of what a god would worry over. In truth, I am not sure that gods fear anything at all. Is fear not driven by a sense of mortality, or at least, the potential for one’s role in the world to change or end at a moment’s notice? I wonder if, instead, the “prophecies” are intended to help the gods develop fear, to remind them that they are not beyond the reach of death and give them a small taste of mortal terror. Though to what end, I do not know. Who would want to give a god a nightmare?

–Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The “Death” of Irori

Irori is not one for dying. Death is common. Death is normal. Death is there for mortals who have not yet mastered how to reach new levels of perfection, who have not willed themselves into attaining the divine. Death might take some weaker god if given the right circumstances, starting with those cheaters who let the Starstone grant them power, grabbing godhood like some prize for drunks and thieves and zealots. But for a god like him, who’d worked and willed himself to godhood? Death is something of the past and he is moving forward.

Irori’s never rested long, no matter his successes. There’s always some new path to take at any well-earned milestone, some new technique to master, some new knowledge to find. Yes, it was good to be a god, if for no other reason than to share new possibilities with those who’d turn their will toward doing better with their lives. But he is one of many gods—some virtuous, some indolent—and so there must be something more, some way that he can still evolve. Some new route toward perfection.

Irori works with diligence, the way that he has always done, reaching beyond the world he’s known to better what he has become. Until one day, he grasps it all—the spaces in the sum of things, the power in the truth of everything that was or will be. And though total enlightenment is only for a moment, slipping between his fingers like a cloud of windblown sand, he still can feel the barrier between himself and something more, as pliable and thin as what once kept him from divinity. While he has it in his reach, he passes through the boundary, as bracing and as easy as a step through falling water. Irori, once a mortal, is now much more than deity.

Irori savors everything, if only for a moment. He takes a breath in every plane, his heartbeat now a multiverse, and feels the coursing power as it crashes through his veins. But he has departed our reality, has left a tear along the border of the way of things, and everything, on every plane, begins to shift toward him, as if he were a beacon for something within the Great Beyond—a single life, a single god, become a singularity. Gruhastha is the first to fall, the Keeper’s arms stretched uselessly, hands grasping at the emptiness he finds beside Irori’s feet. He’s swallowed by a void that somehow still contains a multitude, his body torn asunder in a bright and blissful darkness, his lips mouthing his gratitude, his throat choking on screams.

Irori is a magnet now, pulling those closest to him; Chaldira’s luck lost in a cry while Magrim’s runes go tumbling, some force dragging them both to places even he can’t follow. All he can do is close the gap before it sunders everything, using the power that he holds, still far beyond what it once was, to fix whatever he has done (or is doing or one day will, time half-unraveling in his hands). As he repairs the barrier, still dripping with the power that he touched from passing through it, Zon-Kuthon comes to stand beside him, image of the blinding void reflected in his longing eyes, and Nethys tries to touch the power nestled just beneath his skin, hands clawing unknown patterns of magic in the air. Both soon become his shadows, hounding every move he tries to make, Zon-Kuthon chasing memories and Nethys seeking answers, with Torag always close behind, holding his brother Magrim’s blade with vengeance on his mind. Some of Irori’s followers also trail behind him; those who were deep in prayer at the moment that he moved beyond, unable to unsee the void, dedicate themselves to its return, doing whatever they can to hasten the end of all things.

But Irori has a new path now, divinity left far behind as he masters the power that’s now deep within his bones. He sees things now—beneath the ground, between the breaths, inside the skin—and knows that they will take him where Gruhastha and the rest have gone, that what tore them apart will help him make himself anew. If there are prayers for him to hear, he is no longer listening. If rakshasas take his guise and use his faith to build their power? If Urgathoa’s clerics tell his followers that next time he will end the world and they should eat and drink and die with no thought for tomorrow? How can he care when there’s a new path for him to gain perfection? And if the world unmakes itself, if he had to unmake the world, if that brings him enlightenment, then that’s what it must be.

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Erastil, Irori, Nethys, Pharasma, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon’s portraits have been marked “safe.”

What lies beyond divinity, and who better than Irori to first achieve such exquisite perfection that he leaves even other gods behind?





Well, that was certainly involved. Multiverses? Singularities? Bright voids? And yet, in all of that, I almost see a pattern. I have tried not to reference other prophecies in my notes here; if my Lady chooses to read them out of the original order that I chose, I would hate for her to learn a piece of information in these notes that would be better divulged by the original text. Still, I am reminded of the prophecy regarding Desna, which also mentions a void. And there are similarities between this prophecy and the one for Nethys, not only in their reciprocal mentions but in their fascination with the fundamental properties of our universe. Perhaps instead of looking at the prophecies individually, I should be looking for these types of commonalities—could things that are repeated be elements of some underlying message, or a hint as to what among these “prophecies” might be true amidst the overstatements and suppositions? If there was ever a time to make a chart, that time is upon us.


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Tags: The Godsrain Prophecies Pathfinder Pathfinder Remaster Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Web Fiction
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Sovereign Court

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He who is all and one made it!

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

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Interesting


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well that blows my theory to hell

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not smart enough to solve this mystery :D

Grand Lodge

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Huzzah, my monks don't have to reexamine their faith...wait, they do that regularly anyway!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Now, this is the Cosmic Horror that I love James Jacobs for baking into the Goalrion setting and for Erin capturing it just right with this post. Bravo!!


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I originally thought these were a tie in to get us excited for War of Immortals, but still separate fiction.
But the further we get, like Yivali, I do wonder if these are part of the meta-event and meaning to influence peoples attitudes or events.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh sure, I can't win ten bucks at a lottery ticket, but this, THIS is where my guess work pays off? ;) Actually limiting to Godclaw members narrowed the odds down for me.

I have to admit Irori is often kind of boring to me which is odd as he's a god of history and I like that subject (as a Layman anyway), but this fiction actually showed how intensely scary he could (in theory) get, so.. thanks to the author here.

I maintain my concerns for Shelyn and Sarenrae


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hm… the "Safe" poster is symmetrical now. One in the top row, then two, three, two, and one again. Only one left, Gozreh would maintain the balance, anyone else would upset it. Oddly fitting on its own, but could it be a hint?
Look, you're the one who brought up charts, Yivali, I'm grasping at straws here!


Okay, I was never expecting Irori of all people would actually get one, but I'm kinda glad he did. I've been coming around on him. Now if only I was smart enough to piece all these together. Like the touch of cosmic horror though. Welp, one last opportunity to see Lamashtu safe.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I love this one for more reasons than I can list!

Verdant Wheel

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Enlightened to death?


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Irori, the deity of self-perfection, becomes so obsessed with achiveving a whole new level of perfection that he tears apart himself, the other Gods, and the world as well! Man, that's...DEEP! o_o


I can just imagine Irori reading this, and then furiously writing down new koans.

Because this was inspired, and it's definitely something he and his faith would promptly look at each other, nod, and get ready to debate over. (First on the list: Why is this a bad thing, though we accept it starts with 'kinda dickish to everyone else'?)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, PF Special Edition Subscriber

The real answers are the voids we made along the way


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the hints that the void and the fundamentals of the universe really narrow things down (assuming they aren't purposeful red herrings). All the gods left are either gods of sentient, societal things or monsters, both of which are not fundamental parts of the universe. The only gods left are Gozreh who is definitely the god of something fundamental but is only loosely connected to the void, or Rovagug, who is only loosely the god of something fundamental, but is definitely connected to the void.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

The Pathfinder universe is unraveling into a multiverse of possibility.

I'm beginning to think these prophecies are all true.

At least...

In their own respective timelines.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's the most interesting he's ever been!

And doing it required him to essentially become the self-absorbed villain of the multiverse... yeesh.

Didn't have him figured for a dirt nap (again, collective shrugs seldom seem to be the desired result) but also didn't have him figured for an actual prophecy. This was fun, and finally breaks up what had been a pattern in the poster. How fitting that a Godclaw member should inject a little chaos into an apparent visual pattern....


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So the most boring god in the setting is safe. Figures.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Man why do people think Martial Art Master Buddha is boring? :D


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CorvusMask wrote:
Man why do people think Martial Art Master Buddha is boring? :D

A topic for another thread, but... in short:

Because he and his followers never actually do very much. They exist as setting, but their interactions with others which would make them a living part of the setting are incredibly thin on the ground.

When Zon-Kuthon gets out to play more often than you do, safe to say you're kind of a divine shut-in :P


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I always figured Irori was safe, not because he's boring or anything, but because "the death of Irori" is a hard thing to loop like "ordinary people" and "low-level PCs" into.

Since if this prophecy were to come true, the hole in the universe isn't necessarily something that PCs are more equipped to handle than actual gods.

Still, part of the prophecy that seems odd to me is that I would guess that Pharasma would take it onto herself to patch the hole Irori bore in the fabric of reality since "maintain the universe" is kind of her job.


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So much for the divine suicide idea!

Anyways, this is all-but direct confirmation that we should be studying common elements in each entry.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Well there goes my theory! Damn, but anyway: We got a void, a god predator, divine fears, fundamental rules of reality being altered, that seem to be common themes?


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Hopefully Torag survives one of my favourite gods.

Liberty's Edge

Who starts making the charts ?


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Irori really said “I put Everything on a bagel…”

Scarab Sages

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Each one of these is a pleasant surprise. I'll miss the end of this series!

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Irori: Secretly Lex Luthor.

IOMEDAE: "You could have saved the universe any time you wanted, Irori. You just didn't want to."


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This is the kind of weird, abstractness I love in divine stories and fiction; absolute 10/10 read, up there with Asmodeus' for my possible fave!

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I always figured Irori was safe, not because he's boring or anything, but because "the death of Irori" is a hard thing to loop like "ordinary people" and "low-level PCs" into.

Since if this prophecy were to come true, the hole in the universe isn't necessarily something that PCs are more equipped to handle than actual gods.

Still, part of the prophecy that seems odd to me is that I would guess that Pharasma would take it onto herself to patch the hole Irori bore in the fabric of reality since "maintain the universe" is kind of her job.

Or The Monad would be trying to do the same thing. Then again, since it's the Condition of All, it might also be one of the first things to get ripped apart in the growing void, which seems really bad for the rest of the cosmos.

Incidentally, is anybody else starting to get Nhimbaleth vibes from some of these prophecies? She is a goddess of void and consumption, and while fear isn't exactly part of her portfolio (I thought she had the Nightmare domain, but not so) she does focus greatly on despair and the futility of one's death. Despair and futility fit with several of the deities' prophecies, such as CC, Pharasma, Asmodeus to an extent, and ZK; hunger and consumption with Desna Erastil, as well as Asmodeus and Irori in a sense; and death, oblivion, and emptiness work with Irori, Nethys, and Desna's stories. There's also Urgathoa's story, which takes that odd turn of making undead become more numerous rather than less plentiful, which really starts to make sense when you consider the prophecy from Nhimbaleth's perspective. She loves devouring ghosts and other undead.


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Perpdepog wrote:

This is the kind of weird, abstractness I love in divine stories and fiction; absolute 10/10 read, up there with Asmodeus' for my possible fave!

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I always figured Irori was safe, not because he's boring or anything, but because "the death of Irori" is a hard thing to loop like "ordinary people" and "low-level PCs" into.

Since if this prophecy were to come true, the hole in the universe isn't necessarily something that PCs are more equipped to handle than actual gods.

Still, part of the prophecy that seems odd to me is that I would guess that Pharasma would take it onto herself to patch the hole Irori bore in the fabric of reality since "maintain the universe" is kind of her job.

Or The Monad would be trying to do the same thing. Then again, since it's the Condition of All, it might also be one of the first things to get ripped apart in the growing void, which seems really bad for the rest of the cosmos.

Incidentally, is anybody else starting to get Nhimbaleth vibes from some of these prophecies? She is a goddess of void and consumption, and while fear isn't exactly part of her portfolio (I thought she had the Nightmare domain, but not so) she does focus greatly on despair and the futility of one's death. Despair and futility fit with several of the deities' prophecies, such as CC, Pharasma, Asmodeus to an extent, and ZK; hunger and consumption with Desna Erastil, as well as Asmodeus and Irori in a sense; and death, oblivion, and emptiness work with Irori, Nethys, and Desna's stories. There's also Urgathoa's story, which takes that odd turn of making undead become more numerous rather than less plentiful, which really starts to make sense when you consider the prophecy from Nhimbaleth's perspective. She loves devouring ghosts and other undead.

...Damn I had a thought like that.

Liberty's Edge

Irori still stays the most boring Core 20 IMO.

Cayden's miracle was not reiterated.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Irori's pursuit of perfection leads him past the edges of creation, to try and master things best left forgotten... I appreciate the nods to his ego, less impartial than his monks would all hope for.

This prophecy was great! It makes me fear for Shelyn terribly.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It also makes some sense from a meta-narrative perspective, as well. Slight spoilers for AV.

Spoiler:
Abomination Vaults is very likely Paizo's most popular PF2E Adventure Path, popular enough to be translated into 5E, and Nhimbaleth is a pivotal figure in that story.


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Perpdepog wrote:
It also makes some sense from a meta-narrative perspective, as well. Slight spoilers, sorry, but Abomination Vaults is very likely Paizo's most popular PF2E Adventure Path, popular enough to be translated into 5E, and Nhimbaleth is a pivotal figure in that story.

Please use a spoiler tag if you can, we have those here.


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keftiu wrote:

Irori's pursuit of perfection leads him past the edges of creation, to try and master things best left forgotten... I appreciate the nods to his ego, less impartial than his monks would all hope for.

This prophecy was great! It makes me fear for Shelyn terribly.

His ego shall be the last thing to slip into the shining darkness of the void he has become; then all things will be a perfect oneness, forever.


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Benjamin Tait wrote:
Please use a spoiler tag if you can, we have those here.

I considered using them, but I'm not really sure how to communicate the information is a spoiler without saying what AP it's for in a way that will let the folks know to stay away who would like to. I guess it's also a bit of a moot point because she's talked about in the product descriptions of at least the last adventure, so it must not be too much of a secret. I can still try to spoiler it if you'd like, in which case could you delete your post since it's also got a double of my unspoilered post?


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"If there was ever a time to make a chart, that time is upon us."

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Anyone else spotted that... he didn't die? He's still... "active"... in the end.
But he definitely did a "Dou-Bral", and if Aligments were still a mechanical thing, he would have definitely shifted to LE in that story. :O
And probably joined the ranks of outer gods with no Anathema and a "I don'T care about any of you" attitude. xD


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Perpdepog wrote:
keftiu wrote:

Irori's pursuit of perfection leads him past the edges of creation, to try and master things best left forgotten... I appreciate the nods to his ego, less impartial than his monks would all hope for.

This prophecy was great! It makes me fear for Shelyn terribly.

His ego shall be the last thing to slip into the shining darkness of the void he has become; then all things will be a perfect oneness, forever.

All that is left is a very confused immigrant from Exalted, as the Bishop of the Chalcedony Thurible was sure that was his job and is busy trying to figure out how his schedule interfaces with Dark Irori's.


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"Nearing the end of the review", hm; that implies that in-'verse there's only ten of these. Which is disappointing to people like me who were hoping to see one for EACH of the gods who isn't going to die, but that's how it be.

a) Yay, something about Irori! b) Another "death" eh... I'd thought an that would be a one-time-only thing, but I guess I was wrong. Let's see what happens....

OH. Huh. I hadn't considered ACTUALLY ascending beyond; nor it leading to a metaphysical gravity well. No wait HE's not the gravitational pull, it's something NEAR him....

Yeah, this is definitely something different to ZK; it's not a death of the person he once was, but he's still very much removed from the position he had been in.

Absolutely LOVE the image of Nethys and ZK chasing after him, both desiring something different from him.

Looking through the thread now... someone mentioned Irori and his followers looking at this and then debating it, and I remember talk about Ur-whatsherface possibly having seen her own and thus sponsoring Tar-Baphon as kind of like an experiment; so there's definitely discussions to be had about how each god and their followers would react to their prophecy. Hopefully I'll remember to talk about that later, since NOW is the time for just looking at stuff and reacting.

Hm. Someone brought up Nhimby, and she would absolutely fit with the statement "some of you have already been involved in the first skirmishes of this war". And she DOES seem to fit with some of the observed themes. Does anyone know if there had earlier been statements about her, like "we'd like to do more with her in the future"?
Although... there's also the possibility that it's someone in-'verse specifically writing stuff in honour of Nhimby, and she herself isn't TRYING to get involved, but might end up being summoned later on.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

Irori still stays the most boring Core 20 IMO.

Cayden's miracle was not reiterated.

I think this really iterates the basic problem with Irori: He's so self-absorbed because of his obsession with personal perfection that he doesn't give a whole lot of hooks for RP. His main character hook is being "perfect," and it's imperfections that make a character interesting.

Cayden is interesting because his status as the "Accidental God" or the "Drunken Hero" implies some weakness in with his godly power, and his death story reiterates that it's not the power that made him worth emulating, but his personal qualities like humor and compassion.

The other ascended gods have obvious hooks - Nethys being obsessed with knowledge blinds him to the physical; Norgorber's many faces mean that nobody will ever REALLY know him; Iomedae's righteousness means she's at least partially blind to the ways of those who fight dirty. But Irori? His main character hooks are "I have reached physical and mental perfection" and "I think that any other way of attaining godhood is a cheat so I look down on scrubs like Cayden, Norgorber, and Iomedae."

To me, Irori is kind of the Gary Stu of the gods and this story doesn't really move the needle but instead just illustrates his basic flaw in the story 'verse.


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Kittyburger wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Irori still stays the most boring Core 20 IMO.

Cayden's miracle was not reiterated.

I think this really iterates the basic problem with Irori: He's so self-absorbed because of his obsession with personal perfection that he doesn't give a whole lot of hooks for RP. His main character hook is being "perfect," and it's imperfections that make a character interesting.

Cayden is interesting because his status as the "Accidental God" or the "Drunken Hero" implies some weakness in with his godly power, and his death story reiterates that it's not the power that made him worth emulating, but his personal qualities like humor and compassion.

The other ascended gods have obvious hooks - Nethys being obsessed with knowledge blinds him to the physical; Norgorber's many faces mean that nobody will ever REALLY know him; Iomedae's righteousness means she's at least partially blind to the ways of those who fight dirty. But Irori? His main character hooks are "I have reached physical and mental perfection" and "I think that any other way of attaining godhood is a cheat so I look down on scrubs like Cayden, Norgorber, and Iomedae."

To me, Irori is kind of the Gary Stu of the gods and this story doesn't really move the needle but instead just illustrates his basic flaw in the story 'verse.

Because arrogance, callousness, selfish ambition, and distance aren't flaws, apparently.

Seriously? This showed a flaw in the story and not in Irori? The temptation to decide the world does not matter to your enlightenment and to become something alien, cosmic, and fearful out of lack of concern and sheer bullheaded arrogance? If anything, this actually showed why in pre-Remaster, he had Lawful Evil worshipers; enlightenment is a morally neutral concept. I don't disagree he's too introspective for his own good as a figure, but really, this does show Irori can be interesting if he wants to be.

He's a xianxia protagonist. Anyone who is familiar with xianxia can tell you this makes him terrifying when he wants to be.


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So... rudimentary chart-like thing?

Pharasma: Prophecy broke down, she couldn't take it, that hole in her decays her by inches until she dies, cold and alone. The whole process of getting souls to where they're supposed to be breaks down with her death.

Asmodeus: His fratricidal battle with Ilhys never *truly* ended. Eventually he dies, and Ilhys steps forth once more to take his place... His Empire isn't disassembled (entirely) but his *philosophy* is, through a heavy reshaping. Ilhys makes the contracts looser and more gentle, and reassembles it in his own image.

Cayden Cailean: his fall was all wrapped up in the raw uncertainty of his divinity. He not only achieved divinity through the starstone cheat, he did it while drunk, and doesn't *remember* it. In his wake... all that really changes is that his reputation falls apart, and his legacy becomes more about conning people than about heroism.

Urgathoa: was murdered by Arazni, after offending one too many people (Arazni) and not protecting herself well enough. Necromancy... destabilizes. It goes far more out of control, becomes a lot less reliable, and also becomes something that just happens sometimes. It gets worse and worse and finally pretty much everything basically gets overrun by the undead.

Erastil: Killed while out hunting by a predator even mightier than he, which then goes on to eat a whole bunch of *other* gods. The gods turn their attentions to their own protection, and Golarion responds by adjusting to not care about them nearly as much.

Nethys: Tries to do impossible things with magic, and instead tears himself apart, ripping great holes in the fundament of magic, making it act all wonky and unpredictable.

Zon-Kuthon: Dou-Bral comes back to himself, and kicks out the usurper who was flesh-puppeting him, but is overcome with guilt. He casts away his own divinity and goes into *heavy* mope mode. Shelyn gets *super* sad, and between the effort she put in to make it happen and it not turning out like she wanted, there's some real damage done to lovers and artists. Nidal gets a whole bunch of people fighting over it, and almost certainly destabilizes badly.

Desna: Desna gets distracted and stops spawning new stars in the way that she has to in order to keep from being eaten by Outer Darkness Gribblies. She gets eaten by Outer Darkness Gribblies. Those she loved try to fill that void, but can't really manage it, and are damaged in the attempt. Her domains suffer badly. The gribblies are still out there, and no one knows.

Irori: Irori, having managed True Apotheosis, manages it *again*. It does some pretty bad things to the world, but he manages to limit the damage done by dint of serious effort. He sees where his next apotheosis is, and eagerly pursues it, utterly neglecting his worshippers, uncaring of the damage that might result.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I already had plans to write an adventure about a heretic pantheon involving Iori, Zon Kuthon and Nethys that long ago built a panopticon-style prison designed to give prisoners the opportunity to transcend the limitations of the conditions that drove them to crime, only for a mysterious 4th party to be involved, corrupting the control and surveillance mechanisms of the prison in a failed attempt to create super soldiers.

Originally I was going to have a disciple of Iori be the internal factor that realized something was wrong with the original plan and caused the disaster that stopped the 4th party's plans from initially succeeding and led the prison getting exploded in a fashion to make a more interesting, partially functional dungeon...but now I am inclined to maybe let the Iori presence be more subtly willing to let the 4th party succeed, so that the super soldiers' true test would be being able to shake off the shackles of control in the end, and maybe have the Kuthonites be the ones to throw the wrench into the gears.


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I honestly think the "Irori destroys himself to share divinity with the world" take would have made Irori retroactively a lot more compelling! But yeah, I think the non-canon Everything Bagel Ending is probably for the best.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Leliel the 12th wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Irori still stays the most boring Core 20 IMO.

Cayden's miracle was not reiterated.

I think this really iterates the basic problem with Irori: He's so self-absorbed because of his obsession with personal perfection that he doesn't give a whole lot of hooks for RP. His main character hook is being "perfect," and it's imperfections that make a character interesting.

Cayden is interesting because his status as the "Accidental God" or the "Drunken Hero" implies some weakness in with his godly power, and his death story reiterates that it's not the power that made him worth emulating, but his personal qualities like humor and compassion.

The other ascended gods have obvious hooks - Nethys being obsessed with knowledge blinds him to the physical; Norgorber's many faces mean that nobody will ever REALLY know him; Iomedae's righteousness means she's at least partially blind to the ways of those who fight dirty. But Irori? His main character hooks are "I have reached physical and mental perfection" and "I think that any other way of attaining godhood is a cheat so I look down on scrubs like Cayden, Norgorber, and Iomedae."

To me, Irori is kind of the Gary Stu of the gods and this story doesn't really move the needle but instead just illustrates his basic flaw in the story 'verse.

Because arrogance, callousness, selfish ambition, and distance aren't flaws, apparently.

Seriously? This showed a flaw in the story and not in Irori? The temptation to decide the world does not matter to your enlightenment and to become something alien, cosmic, and fearful out of lack of concern and sheer bullheaded arrogance? If anything, this actually showed why in pre-Remaster, he had Lawful Evil worshipers; enlightenment is a morally neutral concept. I don't disagree he's too introspective for his own good as a figure, but really, this does show Irori can be interesting if he wants to be.

He's a xianxia protagonist. Anyone who is familiar with...

I didn't say it was a flaw in the story, I said the story illustrates why I think the character doesn't offer much in the way of story hooks. It's because of the self-absorption you observe.

It's clear that Irori has worshippers in-universe for reasons. The thing is, and I'm far from the first player to notice this, as an element of the metafictional world of Pathfinder, he's kind of a dud. He doesn't really move the needle for a lot of players, because he doesn't have much in the way of narrative texture to grab onto.


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Kittyburger wrote:

I didn't say it was a flaw in the story, I said the story illustrates why I think the character doesn't offer much in the way of story hooks. It's because of the self-absorption you observe.

It's clear that Irori has worshippers in-universe for reasons. The thing is, and I'm far from the first player to notice this, as an element of the metafictional world of Pathfinder, he's kind of a dud. He doesn't really move the needle for a lot of players, because he doesn't have much in the way of narrative texture to grab onto.

He can be an icon to emulate, and the characters who emulate him can then have interesting roles in stories, but it's true that he himself basically won't.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Irori, after attaining perfection as a mortal to ascend to divinity, attains "perfection" as a deity and effectively becomes a singularity breaching reality into what lies beyond the Outer Sphere (and possibly the Abyss, if the proteans' story about the origin of the Abyss in The Book of the Damned has some relevance)...

Well played. Or maybe "flawless victory."


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Wait. Wait.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
Benjamin Tait wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
What's your theory, Benjamin?
Generally noticing a pattern, the first five prophecies were from rows 3, 4, 2, 5, 1. So far we've had gods for rows 3, 4 and 2. The gods on the same row have not only been adjacent to each other but have been able to connect to the row adjacent to it through the "safe" gods (e.g. Desna allows row 2 to connect to row 3 via Nethys). If this pattern is accurate, the next two would be Lamashtu and Iomedae. I wouldn't mind being wrong, and I know it sounds insane, but so far it's working out.

Calling it now. The next two prophecies are going to be Gozreh and Irori... just to mess with us.

pattern pattern pattern pattern pattern pattern pattern NOPE!

Apparently I called this. Like, I used those words and everything.

Does it count if I didn't mean to call it? I mean, I was seriously kidding at the time.

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