Update from Paizo President Jim Butler

We need some of you to stop creating needless moderation work. Stop any personal attacks. If you’re talking about each other more than you’re talking about the games, then you probably need to stop the conversation. Our time would be better be spent promoting Pathfinder and Starfinder. Flag a post, if you need to, but after that, please move on. We can’t create the community we all want to see without everyone making better choices. This forum should be a place to lift each other up and make our gaming experiences better. Let’s focus on that.

So, you mentioned that you are having some trouble getting as many novels written for Paizo / Pathfinder as you'd like.

The problem has never been finding authors to write for us, but rather finding enough people willing to pay us money to read the words those authors write. As Jim said, the fiction market is undergoing some very severe growing pains as the industry shifts toward digital/audiobook over physical printing and distribution.

At present, if you're looking to write fiction set in the Pathfinder or Starfinder universes, Pathfinder Infinite is where to look.

Zagaroth wrote:

So, you mentioned that you are having some trouble getting as many novels written for Paizo / Pathfinder as you'd like.

The problem has never been finding authors to write for us, but rather finding enough people willing to pay us money to read the words those authors write. As Jim said, the fiction market is undergoing some very severe growing pains as the industry shifts toward digital/audiobook over physical printing and distribution.

At present, if you're looking to write fiction set in the Pathfinder or Starfinder universes, Pathfinder Infinite is where to look.

Hi mark.

Does that imply these new novels (optimism!) are likely to be unavailable in dead tree versions?

Fwiw, even if it were only POD, digital/audio books are an automatic nonpurchase for me. (Granted Im only one person). I really hope you find a way to produce physical copies too.

I am excited about a new Pathfinder novel! I know finances are a thing, but as someone who consumes books by audio more than written word nowadays, it'd be amazing if a way was found to make audio versions of the last two Pathfinder Tales.

Not to derail this thread into specifically fiction, but we don't actually have the rights to reproduce the TOR novels; that would have to be MacMillan Audio, who also no longer have a license to produce new material based on our IP. It's a bit of a contractual mess, that neither TOR nor Paizo has much financial incentive to work through, given that neither of us would likely recoup the costs of doing so with two audiobooks.

I too "read" almost exclusively with my ears, so I understand the desire for more audiobooks. I am already looking into our options to get the upcoming novel audiolized, but no promises. We'll have more information when it gets closer to releasing which will be [REDACTED] around the same time we [REDACTED] [REDACTED].

Does that imply these new novels (optimism!) are likely to be unavailable in dead tree versions?

Fwiw, even if it were only POD, digital/audio books are an automatic nonpurchase for me. (Granted Im only one person). I really hope you find a way to produce physical copies too.

Not at all! One big part of this grand experiment is seeing if changing the formula will make physical novel publishing profitable enough to do more than this once.

Cross your fingers!

Congrats to all of the staff that are hard at work making things happen behind the scenes (please stay hydrated warehouse crew!). I look forward to seeing the long-fought for changes from past and present Paizo employees come to fruition, and I hope that those that make it happen are recognized for their efforts.

Steve Geddes wrote:

Does that imply these new novels (optimism!) are likely to be unavailable in dead tree versions?

Fwiw, even if it were only POD, digital/audio books are an automatic nonpurchase for me. (Granted Im only one person). I really hope you find a way to produce physical copies too.

Not at all! One big part of this grand experiment is seeing if changing the formula will make physical novel publishing profitable enough to do more than this once.

Cross your fingers!

Will do.

Congrats to all of the staff that are hard at work making things happen behind the scenes (please stay hydrated warehouse crew!). I look forward to seeing the long-fought for changes from past and present Paizo employees come to fruition, and I hope that those that make it happen are recognized for their efforts.

It’s hard not to dwell on what might have been. (Unhelpful as such dwelling is).

Super excited about pathfinder tales book! I've been cruising through one a week since May on audible and was sad when I saw there weren't any new ones. This has my full attention and will pre-order as soon as I can!

Great news about Pathefinder setting novels. I love them, for they gave us more lore at our disposal to use in creating our wonderful characters .

Please give us huge warnings weeks ahead when the downtime of the forums will take place for the migration to the new platform. For many of us the online game play is how we play, as areas we live in have few rpg players.

Steve Geddes wrote:

Does that imply these new novels (optimism!) are likely to be unavailable in dead tree versions?

Fwiw, even if it were only POD, digital/audio books are an automatic nonpurchase for me. (Granted Im only one person). I really hope you find a way to produce physical copies too.

Not at all! One big part of this grand experiment is seeing if changing the formula will make physical novel publishing profitable enough to do more than this once.

Cross your fingers!

Please always try to have digital versions available, for us that don't have local game stores, or any postal services for dead tree products.

Congrats to all of the staff that are hard at work making things happen behind the scenes (please stay hydrated warehouse crew!). I look forward to seeing the long-fought for changes from past and present Paizo employees come to fruition, and I hope that those that make it happen are recognized for their efforts.

*swoon* Liz Courts! Have missed you around here. And very well said!

We’re also taking the opportunity to introduce a new fan policy I think many artisans are going to love.

Ooh, artisans! I can imagine all sorts of things appearing. Apart from my general trepidation about changes to the forums, all of these positive changes seem…positive.

I’m very happy to see the workforce being given the flexibility to work remotely. A part of me is saddened at the shuttering of the ol’ physical address, but as I never visited, never saw it and hear the carpets were monstrous, I’m not sure where the sad comes from. Fly high UPW!

I want to get a Pathfinder subscription in the UK, can you make it so this is possible?

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, someone else may have answered this.

This is already possible. I speak as a UK resident with a pathfinder subscription.

Pumped for new forums and new fiction!

PathWars wrote:

I want to get a Pathfinder subscription in the UK, can you make it so this is possible?

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, someone else may have answered this.

This is already possible. I speak as a UK resident with a pathfinder subscription.

Not to speak for the other person, but I would imagine the cost of shipping worldwide makes the subscription unobtainable for many.

Ampersandrew wrote:

PathWars wrote:

I want to get a Pathfinder subscription in the UK, can you make it so this is possible?

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, someone else may have answered this.

This is already possible. I speak as a UK resident with a pathfinder subscription.

Not to speak for the other person, but I would imagine the cost of shipping worldwide makes the subscription unobtainable for many.

As a rule of thumb, for a European (UK counts as Europe despite their deep denial about this fact) subscriber, if you subscribe to softcover lines (PF AP these days I guess) it's OK - the shipping cost is a bit high, but the free PDF is still a great value.

But if you subscribe for hardcover book likes or anything that isn't a book, prepare for a world of pain as astronomic shipping costs + VAT/customs will eat you.

Re Forums - while there may be some changes in particulars, Forums are something we plan to keep and are working up details on. The community is a vibrant part of Paizo and we want to continue to support it here.

That is good to "hear."

While we're on the topic of the forums, PLEASE consider adding an (oft-requested) ignore function. I understand why Paizo has refused to do this in the past, but the time has come. There are people on the forums with whom I simply no longer wish to engage, ever (and for what it's worth, I except the converse is also true). If nothing else, adding an ignore function should go a long way toward reducing the amount of moderation the forums require.

Mike Webb wrote:

Re Forums - while there may be some changes in particulars, Forums are something we plan to keep and are working up details on. The community is a vibrant part of Paizo and we want to continue to support it here.

That is good to "hear."

While we're on the topic of the forums, PLEASE consider adding an (oft-requested) ignore function. I understand why Paizo has refused to do this in the past, but the time has come. There are people on the forums with whom I simply no longer wish to engage, ever (and for what it's worth, I except the converse is also true). If nothing else, adding an ignore function should go a long way toward reducing the amount of moderation the forums require.

Thanks for your feedback.

I'm curious about what, if any, plans Paizo has for the new forums for play-by-post. I know we have lost some of the forum players to Discord because Discord is easier to access from a phone and also has notifications when a new post is made. I much prefer playing on the forums here. I hope the new forums can win some people back.

We really need a better way to make characters on the forums for play by post.

Race = EAC 14, KAC 14|SP 21/21 HP 24/24|RP 4/4|Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +6|Init: +1 | Perc: +8|

Classes/Levels = Speed 30 ft |Spells: 1st 4/4|Healing Channel 1/1| Active conditions: None.

Is not intuitive.

Separate recruitment sub-forum for Starfinder. There are a lot fewer Starfinder games, which makes it hard to find them mixed in with Pathfinder games.

Mike Webb wrote:

Re Forums - while there may be some changes in particulars, Forums are something we plan to keep and are working up details on. The community is a vibrant part of Paizo and we want to continue to support it here.

That is good to "hear."

While we're on the topic of the forums, PLEASE consider adding an (oft-requested) ignore function. I understand why Paizo has refused to do this in the past, but the time has come. There are people on the forums with whom I simply no longer wish to engage, ever (and for what it's worth, I except the converse is also true). If nothing else, adding an ignore function should go a long way toward reducing the amount of moderation the forums require.

So very this. I don't even try to read, let alone participate, in half the forum, because of the lack of a block or ignore feature. (And those who say "just don't read those posts" can f@+@ right off.)

There are people who have harassed me on the forums that Paizo is aware of, and based on prior communications with Paizo, agrees they were harassing me and did stuff about it--but didn't actually ban the individuals who harassed me (I presume because they weren't actually making threats), who are free to continue to bait and insult me in the public forums. I can choose not to engage them, and I do, but I shouldn't have to deal with the mental stress of seeing messages directed toward harassing me at all. Nor should it be my job to keep alerting Paizo via flagging. Paizo by its actions, appears to think, however, I should have to grin and bear it. Why not at least give me the power to make the harrassers invisible to me? I don't necessarily even want the individuals banned, I just don't want to deal with them.

I think Paizo does well--and better than it used to--to moderate and handle disciplinary cases, and I know it can be hard to decide what is the line one has to cross to lead to permabanning. An ignore feature would lighten the load of moderators and make being at the boards less stressful for community members. Win-win.

bugleyman wrote:

Mike Webb wrote:

Re Forums - while there may be some changes in particulars, Forums are something we plan to keep and are working up details on. The community is a vibrant part of Paizo and we want to continue to support it here.

That is good to "hear."

While we're on the topic of the forums, PLEASE consider adding an (oft-requested) ignore function. I understand why Paizo has refused to do this in the past, but the time has come. There are people on the forums with whom I simply no longer wish to engage, ever (and for what it's worth, I except the converse is also true). If nothing else, adding an ignore function should go a long way toward reducing the amount of moderation the forums require.

So very this. I don't even try to read, let alone participate, in half the forum, because of the lack of a block or ignore feature. (And those who say "just don't read those posts" can f@## right off.)

There are people who have harassed me on the forums that Paizo is aware of, and based on prior communications with Paizo, agrees they were harassing me and did stuff about it--but didn't actually ban the individuals who harassed me (I presume because they weren't actually making threats), who are free to continue to bait and insult me in the public forums. I can choose not to engage them, and I do, but I shouldn't have to deal with the mental stress of seeing messages directed toward harassing me at all. Nor should it be my job to keep alerting Paizo via flagging. Paizo by its actions, appears to think, however, I should have to grin and bear it. Why not at least give me the power to make the harrassers invisible to me? I don't necessarily even want the individuals banned, I just don't want to deal with them.

I think Paizo does well--and better than it used to--to moderate and handle disciplinary cases, and I know it can be hard to decide what is the line one has to cross to lead to permabanning. An ignore feature would lighten the load of moderators and make...

Throwing my voice in here too. I used to be a fairly regular participant on these forums but the bad times just prior to the unionization effort dampened my enthusiasm for engaging with Paizo and then the myriad of frankly unpleasant people lurking on the forums and operating just close enough to the rules to keep from getting kicked has largely kept me away.

The option to block or ignore them would help immensely along with a general overhaul of the forum system. I can't promise I'll become a regular again but it would go a long way to keeping others from burning out.

Yeah, a block or ignore function would be very nice. I don't get into it with folks here, but some here do. There are some regular posters here it is simply not worth engaging with, even if I agree with their position, because they simply will not let it go unless forced to by a moderator. I'd really rather not see all of that nonsense over and over again.

Thanks for your feedback!

We’ll be replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one.

I hear that people who try to buy physical products from paizo.com run into some bug such that the purchase doesn't get approved. That physical item gets a hold charged and the financial institution never approves it. Has anyone looked - or will anyone look - into that before "replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one"?

Jim Butler wrote:

We’ll be replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one.

I hear that people who try to buy physical products from paizo.com run into some bug such that the purchase doesn't get approved. That physical item gets a hold charged and the financial institution never approves it. Has anyone looked - or will anyone look - into that before "replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one"?

Might already be on the long list of reasons for needing a new one.

I can choose not to engage them, and I do, but I shouldn't have to deal with the mental stress of seeing messages directed toward harassing me at all. Nor should it be my job to keep alerting Paizo via flagging.

As usual, there is a load of great insight in DQ’s post. I think this quoted part is definitely something which may not be immediately obvious on the other side of the moderation dynamic.

“Flag and move on” is excellent advice as far as what we should do. But that in itself isn’t “the flag system working” - the visible moderator follow up is important.

Jim Butler wrote:

We’ll be replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one.

I hear that people who try to buy physical products from paizo.com run into some bug such that the purchase doesn't get approved. That physical item gets a hold charged and the financial institution never approves it. Has anyone looked - or will anyone look - into that before "replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one"?

I've never run into such a bug, you may want to email customer service.

DeathQuaker wrote:

I can choose not to engage them, and I do, but I shouldn't have to deal with the mental stress of seeing messages directed toward harassing me at all. Nor should it be my job to keep alerting Paizo via flagging.

As usual, there is a load of great insight in DQ’s post. I think this quoted part is definitely something which may not be immediately obvious on the other side of the moderation dynamic.

The flagging system was a great change to the forums, but Paizo haven’t always been aware of the hidden stress that comes from a forum member silently flagging a string of posts, all of which get moderated but where there is no stronger action.

“Flag and move on” is excellent advice as far as what we should do. But that in itself isn’t “the flag system working” - the visible moderator follow up is important.

We have it our list to look into a range of self-moderation tools. This specificity helps. Thanks.

Jim Butler wrote:

We’ll be replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one.

I hear that people who try to buy physical products from paizo.com run into some bug such that the purchase doesn't get approved. That physical item gets a hold charged and the financial institution never approves it. Has anyone looked - or will anyone look - into that before "replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one"?

I had a physical item shipped to me not long ago from Paizo without issue.

I am not an expert on such matters, but the above sounds to an average consumer like me like an authorization issue with one's bank.

Yep, also for an Ignore function, like most other forums have and always had have. If the fear is that this will lead to less engagement, in regards to how I, as an example, handle this is that normally after a while people get off my ignore list, because I'm the forgetful and forgiving type. Only people who would work really, really hard to make me dislike them (like, 10 to 15 years of continuous negative posting towards me and other members of the community) would be in danger of getting perma-ignored. ^^

On another forum, there are two or three people I've "ignored", one at his request. The software doesn't show me what they post, but it does show me that they have posted, and gives me the option to see what they said if I want. Seems like a good approach to me.

On another forum, there are two or three people I've "ignored", one at his request. The software doesn't show me what they post, but it does show me that they have posted, and gives me the option to see what they said if I want. Seems like a good approach to me.

Different strokes and all that, but for me even seeing the name of people I'm trying to ignore is enough to drive me away from online spaces. (Granted I have a pretty high tolerance before I get to the level of wanting to ignore someone, so have only done that twice in my online life).

I'd personally be in favor of a more complete ignore function (if it were possible).

There are people on this site that I would not even want seeing my posts. I entirely wish to not interact with them or have them engage with anything I put out. I don't even want to see it if they favorite one of my posts. I understand that might not be entirely feasible but I feel my point stands. I do not consider them to be any part of a community I wish to interact with.

More feasibly, the only way I want to see one of their posts is if I actively check their profile.

There are people on this site that I would not even want seeing my posts. I entirely wish to not interact with them or have them engage with anything I put out. I don't even want to see it if they favorite one of my posts. I understand that might not be entirely feasible but I feel my point stands. I do not consider them to be any part of a community I wish to interact with.

More feasibly, the only way I want to see one of their posts is if I actively check their profile.

That would be a "Blocking" function, which is quite a step above "Ignore".

I fear that even Ignoring a poster (as in hiding the posts they write) would not hide the posts that quote those invisible posts.

But I am not an expert of Web sites and forums by any means, so maybe it can be done.

DeathQuaker wrote:

I can choose not to engage them, and I do, but I shouldn't have to deal with the mental stress of seeing messages directed toward harassing me at all. Nor should it be my job to keep alerting Paizo via flagging.

As usual, there is a load of great insight in DQ’s post. I think this quoted part is definitely something which may not be immediately obvious on the other side of the moderation dynamic.

The flagging system was a great change to the forums, but Paizo haven’t always been aware of the hidden stress that comes from a forum member silently flagging a string of posts, all of which get moderated but where there is no stronger action.

“Flag and move on” is excellent advice as far as what we should do. But that in itself isn’t “the flag system working” - the visible moderator follow up is important.

Actually that's horrendous advice. There have been quite a few instances where the correct course of action was to contact a completely different Paizo employee because its an overextending issue with other parts of the community.

It gets frustrating because I've seen the weird forum moderation actually get in the way of people actually trying to do something.

Aaron Bitman wrote:

Jim Butler wrote:

We’ll be replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one.

I hear that people who try to buy physical products from paizo.com run into some bug such that the purchase doesn't get approved. That physical item gets a hold charged and the financial institution never approves it. Has anyone looked - or will anyone look - into that before "replacing the current Paizo Store with a shiny new one"?

I had a physical item shipped to me not long ago from Paizo without issue.

I am not an expert on such matters, but the above sounds to an average consumer like me like an authorization issue with one's bank.

Okay, I ordered something from Paizo.com and it arrived today. So maybe you're right.

I've been a subscriber to various lines since 2014. In all that time I've had one problem with a shipment: the post office reported that they delivered it to somewhere in Illinois (I'm in New York). So I contacted CS and they sent me a duplicate. That was, as I remember, a Monday. On Friday, the original shipment appeared on my doorstep. So I fired off another message to CS, who said "too late, we just shipped the replacement". So a week or so later I got the replacement, took it to the post office and sent it back. Easy peasy.

I recognize that some folks have had some problems, but I've been very satisfied over the years. Knock on wood. :-)

Coming to this discussion somewhat late and, for reasons I'll explain a bit more below always a bit nervous of posting these days.

That said, on UK / European subscriptions, I am in the UK and have been a subscriber on and off (mostly on) since Dragon and Dungeon days. I could count on one hand the shipping issues I've had in those two decades and the free PDF (which I would buy anyway even if I got physical books elsewhere) pretty much offsets shipping costs. The Large South American River Company can rarely get Paizo products to me as quickly as Paizo can so even when I cancel my subs to see if the other option is better it never is.

On the forums, I have experienced harassment and made Paizo seniors (all the way to the top of the company) aware of the individuals involved but nothing was ever tackled. This is disappointing and frankly has put me off engaging with the community even in the limited way I have time to do so I post rarely now. And yet, here I am (mostly just lurking and reading), because they do produce games I love and I am keen to continue to support them and occasionally throw in my views when I feel comfortable doing that.

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

There are people on this site that I would not even want seeing my posts. I entirely wish to not interact with them or have them engage with anything I put out. I don't even want to see it if they favorite one of my posts. I understand that might not be entirely feasible but I feel my point stands. I do not consider them to be any part of a community I wish to interact with.

More feasibly, the only way I want to see one of their posts is if I actively check their profile.

That would be a "Blocking" function, which is quite a step above "Ignore".

Sadly, a few people had manifested that they are not content with them not seen conversations about certain topics happening, but would only be content with reassurance that those conversation aren't happening on a place someone would see them.

So while I agree that a block (meaning that person can't see my posts nor I can't see theirs) and a mute (meaning I can't see that person's posts) button would be an improvement. I don't think it would enough to deal with certain overly incendiary members.

Ullpu Vacakuna