Tian Xia: Coming 2023–2024!

*insert joke about Tanukis getting a natural attack with a "slam"* XD

I see several Tsukumogamis, or kami-possessed objects, so here's hoping for these being ancestries :)

Hey, someone recentyl offered mimics as an ancestry, so if a man-eating chest can be a PC, so can an animated umbrella :P

Credit to RiverMesa for the spot - there’s a bunch of scalyfolk in the boats on the World Guide! I see Kobolds, Nagaji… and a few I don’t recognize, which may be a new Ancestry.

James Case says the inspiration is Vietnamese, which would track with dragon-friendly Xa Hoi… I love the idea of it having such a distinct Ancestry palette!

This helped me notice the fishy looking dude playing the drums!!

I am torn, on one hand I want to be excited. But 1-12 really kills my excitement. And has confirmed that it is going to become very hard / unlikely to be able to run a 1-20 campaign with paizo adventures going forward.

As of current I have two 1-20 experiences left and I am done :(

I am torn, on one hand I want to be excited. But 1-12 really kills my excitement. And has confirmed that it is going to become very hard / unlikely to be able to run a 1-20 campaign with paizo adventures going forward.

As of current I have two 1-20 experiences left and I am done :(

I was thinking of running Fists of the Ruby Phoenix right after Season of Ghosts. Seems like SoG would be a good party for it.

I mean, besides possibility of ap after this being 2 part ap, I don't think its necessarily death knell for 1-20 aps though.

(I mean they did six part aps for whole 1e, so would be weird if those stopped being thing and became "once in blue moon" thing)

I do hope they slightly retcon the Taldor expedition and how it ended up on the other side of the world. It never made sense how a fleet ended up on the other side of the world.

Spamotron wrote:

Lost Omens books often have Archetypes though. That would probably be a good compromise between your viewpoints.

Or class paths! Like, "ninja" really does seem like "obvious rogue class path" to me.

Admittedly, rogue class paths are a bit on the thin side. Possibly a class path and a selection of feats?

I'd say in regards to Ninja I feel there are enough different depictions of them media to where you could make it a class with a lot of options for feats

Any clue what that shiny metal orb crashed into the map is? Central-south, right before Valashmai really begins to fan out.

There's some unexplained metal orbs floating around in the Plane of Air, maybe one of those crashed into Tian Xia?

If the cover image for the character guide give an idea of the 6 new ancestries. so along Tanuki, Samsaren, and Wayangs, my bet is, Kappa, Tsukumogami, and whatever the shadow creature from Spirited Away is in the back.

How about Oni?

The one captaining the boat looks like a sahuagin.

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

Could be new minions.

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

If Sprites can be playable, I figure Yokai can, too.

Given that the cover has no Samsaran or Wayang on it, I do think we’re looking at it a little too hard. The fishy folk on the TXWG, however, are promising!

I'd love to see playable Sahuagin, more underwater ancestries would be great and the Azarketi don't really appeal to me that much personally.

Excited about Tanuki, but I want to know, are you going to fix up Kitsune? As it stands there are a ton of issues with it that prevent them from functioning as proper shapeshifting fox people, especially if you want to go for more of the magic fox rather than human with tail character.

Most of those issues were fixed in the Kitsune of Golarion Infinite product but that can't be used in Society and it is kinda embarrassing that the quintessential shapeshifting tricksters shapeshifting is represented by choosing to either be a human or an incredibly mechanically flawed approximation of a fox through pest form.

I'd expect at least some more feats and maybe one or two new heritages, as for me I'm hyped for the near certain return of hungerseed tieflings.

This announcement has my players and me in complete thrall! We have been eagerly awaiting this for quite a while -- glad to see it's so close in coming!

keftiu wrote:

Any clue what that shiny metal orb crashed into the map is? Central-south, right before Valashmai really begins to fan out.

There's some unexplained metal orbs floating around in the Plane of Air, maybe one of those crashed into Tian Xia?

The organized play scenario Countdown to Round Mountain gives a pretty good explanation for what that might be...

I hope there will be sanurai and ninja options.

omfg Paizo is just going absolutely ham. it's almost scary how good the content has been and how it just keeps getting more and more hype. it's like they've removed the brakes and are shoveling plutonium into the engine

I am so excited for two books! The art that has been previewed so far is amazing!

CynDuck wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Any clue what that shiny metal orb crashed into the map is? Central-south, right before Valashmai really begins to fan out.

There's some unexplained metal orbs floating around in the Plane of Air, maybe one of those crashed into Tian Xia?

The organized play scenario Countdown to Round Mountain gives a pretty good explanation for what that might be...

Oh, duh! I was thinking it was from 2e, but that makes perfect sense.

Ysoki buddies!

omfg Paizo is just going absolutely ham. it's almost scary how good the content has been and how it just keeps getting more and more hype. it's like they've removed the brakes and are shoveling plutonium into the engine

1.21 GIGAWATTS OF HYPE!!

you can't be doing this to my wallet Paizo

YuriP wrote:

Great News!!! We finally have something from Tian Xia.

But there aren't anything about classes (with exception from Magus Hybrid Study) and many players call for oriental themed classes like Samurai, Ninja and even Onmyoji, Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang.

There's some prevision for such more cultural related classes? (I also miss this for Garunde region I think maybe there classes related to such culture too) Because we already have many region and cultural related ancestries but the classes are all generic.

Lost Omens books are never gonna be the place you find a new class.

Why do those concepts need standalone classes? What is a full Samurai providing to the game that a Fighter from Minkai in full O-Yoroi with a katana isn't?

The PF2 classes are all pretty broad, archetypal identities: you can find Rogues and Sorcerers and Psychics in all sorts of cultures, on every continent. Making new ones that are tightly-bound to specific geography is a losing bet.

I know that Lost Omens books typically don't give us new class content that's why I asking some prediction for more cultural related classes books.

IMO I think these concepts deserve a standalone class. They are far from main Fighter concept meets. Samurais for example have all sort of ritualist and spiritual context over it. For example they have a hard mental training that don't feats having will as it's weakest save also due many spiritual relationship to everything the samurai respects and honor their weapons like living things. It's would be very interesting if this had some mechanical effects (maybe focus spells) related to this, also like monks they have some ki concept too making them perfect to mix many fighter and monks characteristics.

Similar things could be said about Ninjas, Onmyojis and so on. Just reskin a generic class will loose many of these characteristics it's just like to say "why we need magus? We can MC the Fight with a Wizard Dedication" or "why we need a witch? We can reskin a wizard" (OK IMO the Witch coulded to be an class archetype but this is for another discussion) if we stayed in this comcept that general classes (specially from CRB) can solve everything we would ended in many mediocre adaptations.

Sanityfaerie wrote:

Spamotron wrote:

Lost Omens books often have Archetypes though. That would probably be a good compromise between your viewpoints.

Or class paths! Like, "ninja" really does seem like "obvious rogue class path" to me.

Admittedly, rogue class paths are a bit on the thin side. Possibly a class path and a selection of feats?

I'd say in regards to Ninja I feel there are enough different depictions of them media to where you could make it a class with a lot of options for feats

I agree that's my point too.

I hope there will be sanurai and ninja options.

Was already said by Keftiu this is unlikely once that Lost Omens books don't give us classes. In the best cases just some subclasses or archetypes. That's why I asking for a new class book with cultural related classes. We already had some demand for this and this is an great aspect unexplored in PF2 and as far we go from Avistan more dislocated the core classes feels from the cultural aspect of the game. Feels wrong to see every chars being like a default set of european medieval fantasy in entire world.

The one captaining the boat looks like a sahuagin.

I think Locathah live in one of the nations.

keftiu wrote:

YuriP wrote:

Great News!!! We finally have something from Tian Xia.

But there aren't anything about classes (with exception from Magus Hybrid Study) and many players call for oriental themed classes like Samurai, Ninja and even Onmyoji, Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang.

There's some prevision for such more cultural related classes? (I also miss this for Garunde region I think maybe there classes related to such culture too) Because we already have many region and cultural related ancestries but the classes are all generic.

Lost Omens books are never gonna be the place you find a new class.

Why do those concepts need standalone classes? What is a full Samurai providing to the game that a Fighter from Minkai in full O-Yoroi with a katana isn't?

The PF2 classes are all pretty broad, archetypal identities: you can find Rogues and Sorcerers and Psychics in all sorts of cultures, on every continent. Making new ones that are tightly-bound to specific geography is a losing bet.

I know that Lost Omens books typically don't give us new class content that's why I asking some prediction for more cultural related classes books.

IMO I think these concepts deserve a standalone class. They are far from main Fighter concept meets. Samurais for example have all sort of ritualist and spiritual context over it. For example they have a hard mental training that don't feats having will as it's weakest save also due many spiritual relationship to everything the samurai respects and honor their weapons like living things. It's would be very interesting if this had some mechanical effects (maybe focus spells) related to this, also like monks they have some ki concept too making them perfect to mix many fighter and monks characteristics.

Similar things could be said about Ninjas, Onmyojis and so on. Just reskin a generic class will loose many of these characteristics it's...

The way you're describing the samurai doesn't really align with how they were in reality, samurai were members of a nobility caste in Japan, and the historical samurai warriors weren't ridiculously honorable like you often see in fiction. That trope's generally considered pretty offensive, and honestly I find it really boring too, it leads to making some pretty flat characters. An actual samurai warrior would be best represented as a regular fighter, I don't think it needs its own class.

I would not be surprised to see samurai and ninja end up as archetypes suited for a variety of martial or skillful characters. (See also: the fate of the 1e cavalier and vigilante classes.)

Cool!

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

there is nothing special about samurai than other landed martial nobility

like asakura norikage said

warrior become dog become animal only victory matter

samurai and ninja should be extra feat for martial class at most

like oni feat for barbarian

nothing should be limited to archetype

I would not be surprised to see samurai and ninja end up as archetypes suited for a variety of martial or skillful characters. (See also: the fate of the 1e cavalier and vigilante classes.)

I don't feel like I know enough to comment on ninjas, for samurai I don't think I'd like to see one general samurai archetype, instead I think I'd like some feats or archetypes that allow for samurai themes but aren't specifically the option to use for playing one. I've heard someone suggest an Iaido archetype or feat before which could work, also some options to allow for samurai horse archers would be fun since those don't get enough representation in fantasy. Plus that would mean these options could be used for characters from a wide variety of cultures, like horse archers in Hongal.

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

aobst128 wrote:

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

5e did it well enough. Fighter subclass made the most sense for that system. An archetype could fit for 2E. A whole class I'd agree is not fitting.

I Could see Ninja themed feats for a variety of classes. The most obvious one would be rogue options but tbh I think I could see a case for a good chunk of classes depending on what kind of fantasies and stories of Ninjas you want to borrow from. If you wanted to go with more mystical/magical stuff I could see a Rogue racket that perhaps gives them a focus point. Or alternatively I could see a racket and a series of feats that give Rogues reagents they can use on certain alchemical items but also unique features to spend the reagents(kind of like how the fireworks archetype gets to spend reagents on unique features.) For a bit more realistic take.

oh I just got excited about potential animal companions from the region.

Oh oh or new entry level ki feats for monks. TO be honest there is so much potential. We are so excited.

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

5e did it well enough. Fighter subclass made the most sense for that system. An archetype could fit for 2E. A whole class I'd agree is not fitting.

5e's samurai is only good from a mechanical standpoint, flavor-wise it's just about fighting spirit and self discipline. Portraying samurais as if they're all like that sounds incredibly boring to me, especially in a system so focused on its flexibility.

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

5e did it well enough. Fighter subclass made the most sense for that system. An archetype could fit for 2E. A whole class I'd agree is not fitting.

5e's samurai is only good from a mechanical standpoint, flavor-wise it's just about fighting spirit and self discipline. Portraying samurais as if they're all like that sounds incredibly boring to me, especially in a system so focused on its flexibility.

It's inoffensive at least. Perhaps boring but paizo are better writers than Wizards. They'd definitely make a better version. 5Es was just an example. Doesn't need to be the expectation.

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

5e did it well enough. Fighter subclass made the most sense for that system. An archetype could fit for 2E. A whole class I'd agree is not fitting.

5e's samurai is only good from a mechanical standpoint, flavor-wise it's just about fighting spirit and self discipline. Portraying samurais as if they're all like that sounds incredibly boring to me, especially in a system so focused on its flexibility.

It's inoffensive at least. Perhaps boring but paizo are better writers than Wizards. They'd definitely make a better version. 5Es was just an example. Doesn't need to be the expectation.

Displaying the warriors of a specific culture through such a narrow lens is pretty offensive though. I just don't see how you could make a samurai archetype that's interesting, culturally sensitive, and has a strong enough theme to not be something more generic, that's why I'm suggesting options that can allow for fighting styles associated with the samurai but not specifically tied to them instead.

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

5e did it well enough. Fighter subclass made the most sense for that system. An archetype could fit for 2E. A whole class I'd agree is not fitting.

5e's samurai is only good from a mechanical standpoint, flavor-wise it's just about fighting spirit and self discipline. Portraying samurais as if they're all like that sounds incredibly boring to me, especially in a system so focused on its flexibility.

It's inoffensive at least. Perhaps boring but paizo are better writers than Wizards. They'd definitely make a better version. 5Es was just an example. Doesn't need to be the expectation.

Displaying the warriors of a specific culture through such a narrow lens is pretty offensive though. I just don't see how you could make a samurai archetype that's interesting, culturally sensitive, and has a strong enough theme to not be something more generic, that's why I'm suggesting options that can allow for fighting styles associated with the samurai but not specifically tied to them instead.

5Es version is benign. I don't think it's reasonable to simply not mention samurai for the risk of it being offensive. Samurai are a giant pop culture thing anyways. They're everywhere and I'm not aware of any being notably problematic nowadays. As a fantasy trope, it fits right in.

I Could see Ninja themed feats for a variety of classes. The most obvious one would be rogue options but tbh I think I could see a case for a good chunk of classes depending on what kind of fantasies and stories of Ninjas you want to borrow from. If you wanted to go with more mystical/magical stuff I could see a Rogue racket that perhaps gives them a focus point. Or alternatively I could see a racket and a series of feats that give Rogues reagents they can use on certain alchemical items but also unique features to spend the reagents(kind of like how the fireworks archetype gets to spend reagents on unique features.) For a bit more realistic take.

oh I just got excited about potential animal companions from the region.

Oh oh or new entry level ki feats for monks. TO be honest there is so much potential. We are so excited.

I really feel Ninja could be its own class because as you pointed there are quite a lot of directions you could take it in

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

5e did it well enough. Fighter subclass made the most sense for that system. An archetype could fit for 2E. A whole class I'd agree is not fitting.

5e's samurai is only good from a mechanical standpoint, flavor-wise it's just about fighting spirit and self discipline. Portraying samurais as if they're all like that sounds incredibly boring to me, especially in a system so focused on its flexibility.

It's inoffensive at least. Perhaps boring but paizo are better writers than Wizards. They'd definitely make a better version. 5Es was just an example. Doesn't need to be the expectation.

Displaying the warriors of a specific culture through such a narrow lens is pretty offensive though. I just don't see how you could make a samurai archetype that's interesting, culturally sensitive, and has a strong enough theme to not be something more generic, that's why I'm suggesting options that can allow for fighting styles associated with the samurai but not specifically tied to them instead.

5Es version is benign. I don't think it's reasonable to simply not mention samurai for the risk of it being offensive. Samurai are a giant pop culture thing anyways. They're everywhere and I'm not aware of any being notably problematic nowadays. As a fantasy trope,...

The whole honorable samurai trope is pretty problematic, it turns them into something strange and exotic that also flattens them as characters. The purpose of this book isn't to fulfill a bunch of tropes, it's to create an interesting setting that represents these cultures well, and I think that what most people are wanting out of a samurai archetype is at odds with Paizo's goals for the game.

Does this mean Oni-Tiefling are coming back?

Also I was worried Wayangs were gonna be changed, but I'm super happy they still look all gangly and cool!

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

CynDuck wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

In a fictional setting, it's OK to romanticise stuff a bit. European knights probably weren't exemplary individuals but we can still make them hero's. Ghost of Tsushima comes to mind for fictional samurai done well. That's the kind of fantasy that can exist as a class. Or more likely an archetype in my opinion.

I do think that you can exaggerate it to some extent, but a lot of samurai tropes lean into some pretty offensive stereotypes of Japanese people, or just East Asian people more broadly. When you strip down those stereotypes the idea of a samurai class just doesn't have enough for it to stand on.

5e did it well enough. Fighter subclass made the most sense for that system. An archetype could fit for 2E. A whole class I'd agree is not fitting.

5e's samurai is only good from a mechanical standpoint, flavor-wise it's just about fighting spirit and self discipline. Portraying samurais as if they're all like that sounds incredibly boring to me, especially in a system so focused on its flexibility.

It's inoffensive at least. Perhaps boring but paizo are better writers than Wizards. They'd definitely make a better version. 5Es was just an example. Doesn't need to be the expectation.

Displaying the warriors of a specific culture through such a narrow lens is pretty offensive though. I just don't see how you could make a samurai archetype that's interesting, culturally sensitive, and has a strong enough theme to not be something more generic, that's why I'm suggesting options that can allow for fighting styles associated with the samurai but not specifically tied to them instead.

5Es version is benign. I don't think it's reasonable to simply not mention samurai for the risk of it being offensive. Samurai are a giant pop culture thing anyways. They're everywhere and I'm not aware of any being notably problematic

...

I've seen enough anime with that trope that still manages to have decent characters. Samurai Champloo is great. Seems to me like it's a positive trope. I find it unlikely anyone would actually be offended by a samurai archetype. Now, Paizo has done a good job of making a lot of their world representative of various cultures while keeping a wholly unique world. It may be that something akin to samurai go by a different name. That sounds like something Paizo might do.

I could see a "warrior poet" archetype that's specifically geared towards that movie samurai look. Hard to make a STR-based unarmored character right now which is the mechanical issue that makes it difficult to play this particular fantasy. Doesn't need to have any honor code stuff, though it'd probably get duelist challenge mechanics like has been dotted across a few different archetypes geared towards rapier users.

I could see a "warrior poet" archetype that's specifically geared towards that movie samurai look. Hard to make a STR-based unarmored character right now which is the mechanical issue that makes it difficult to play this particular fantasy. Doesn't need to have any honor code stuff, though it'd probably get duelist challenge mechanics like has been dotted across a few different archetypes geared towards rapier users.

That would be pretty cool.

The way you're describing the samurai doesn't really align with how they were in reality, samurai were members of a nobility caste in Japan, and the historical samurai warriors weren't ridiculously honorable like you often see in fiction. That trope's generally considered pretty offensive, and honestly I find it really boring too, it leads to making some pretty flat characters. An actual samurai warrior would be best represented as a regular fighter, I don't think it needs its own class.

I know but we aren't talking about a historical game but a fantasy one.

Mostly fantastic concept from Samurais came from Japanese pop culture so I disagree that's offensive in anyway.

More boring would be if the game was restricted to only historical bases so we won't have magic, and fantastic creatures too. So sorry but I completely refuse your point.

I just wish the “ninjas and samurai!” crowd could tell me anything else about a continent as big as Asia. It’s kind of exasperating to reduce such a massive cultural palette to two pop culture visions from a single country, y’know?

Pop culture is a powerful force. Nothing wrong with being a fan of it. Japanese pop culture in particular has something of stranglehold on western audiences but it's not necessarily problematic.

I just wish the “ninjas and samurai!” crowd could tell me anything else about a continent as big as Asia. It’s kind of exasperating to reduce such a massive cultural palette to two pop culture visions from a single country, y’know?

That's why I quoted Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang too and also may have many others from cultures that I don't know (like mongolian culture for example). But due Tian Xi is basically based in China/Korea/Japan probably we have more focus in the pop and fantastic culture from these regions.

For other asian cultures inspiration they probably fits more in Casmaron region than Tian Xia.