Save the Date for a New Pathfinder Class Playtest!

With the surprise announcements just now, I feel even more certain we’re getting Inquisitor here.

With the surprise announcements just now, I feel even more certain we’re getting Inquisitor here.

What announcements? Do you mean the Niobe and Dura Kickstarter? That article mentions "shaman", though... (twice)

https://twitter.com/donatoclassic/status/1431420401465184260?s=20

Hey, big news on the Lost Omens front!

Presenting Lost Omens Knights of Lastwall, a book all about the Knights of Lastwall and their righteous endeavors to do good, destroy undead, and put an end to the machinations of the Whispering Tyrant.

keftiu wrote:

With the surprise announcements just now, I feel even more certain we’re getting Inquisitor here.

What announcements? Do you mean the Niobe and Dura Kickstarter? That article mentions "shaman", though... (twice)

The Knights of Lastwall book, given their ties to both Iomedae and Arazni.

Maybe they've found a way of bringing the Teamwork Feats concept back, and this is a class connected to that? Inquisitor would be a contender then, as would something like a Marshall.

https://twitter.com/donatoclassic/status/1431420401465184260?s=20

Luis wrote:

Hey, big news on the Lost Omens front!

Presenting Lost Omens Knights of Lastwall, a book all about the Knights of Lastwall and their righteous endeavors to do good, destroy undead, and put an end to the machinations of the Whispering Tyrant.

As much as I'm most excited for the Occultist/Antiquarian... Lastwall synergises really well with both Inquisitor and Warlord sorta characters.

Also, I'm so very excited. Lastwall has such a cool story to me, and I'm always up for learning more about Arazni. Plus, I'd love a really good excuse to yell some Crimson Couplets at the table.

Wouldn't the timing be off though? The next classes will be a gencon release. Why would they release a themed adventure perfect for a class, multiple months before said class comes out? SoM and SoT were (supposed to be) released at the same time, the new adventure suited to gunslinger/inventor is coming out multiple months after said classes were released.

I would think people would hold off on running adventures - and therefore buying the books - if a perfectly suited class is coming out a few months down the road.

You know, all this time I have been thinking that Paizo might do a series of Tradition books (Arcane, Divine, Occult, Primal) that would expand upon the Secrets of Magic, but what it they go a different route and do books themed around the Essences, like Life, Matter, Mind, and Spirit?

If they do that, they could hit up each tradition twice within the four potential books of such a series, giving them a chance to grab stuff from the cutting room floor of earlier books when they come back to a Tradition they already worked on when it came under another Essence. So, for example, they could add material for the Occult Tradition the Spirit book and then come back to any Occult stuff they might have missed or had to cut for space and add it/re-write it for the Mind book.

Like my ideas before for the concept of Tradition books, each book could add things like spells, classes, archetypes, equipment, weapons, armor, magic items of all sorts, monsters, optional systems, setting lore, alchemical items, any other unique concepts that would be most appropriate for that Essence's topic, and any new subclass systems they need to add like bloodlines, eidolons, mysteries, subclass/paths, etc.

If I am on the right track, we might get a Book of Spirits announced next that will introduce both the Inquisitor and either the Shaman or the Medium since Spirit essence touches on both Divine and Occult. Then, later on we could get the Book of the Mind that gives us a Psychic and Occultist or Medium or a Book of Life that gives us the Kineticist and the Shifter or the Inquisitor (if they did not work out for the Spirit book, which I think would be best). A Book on What Matters could entail more items in it and focus on a Warlord/Envoy/Marshal or maybe the Occultist (if it still focuses on using Implements in this version) or the Kineticist could work for Matter, too, since it involves the manipulation of elemental matter. Of course, any of these books could contain a whole new concept for a class, too.

Wouldn't the timing be off though? The next classes will be a gencon release. Why would they release a themed adventure perfect for a class, multiple months before said class comes out? SoM and SoT were (supposed to be) released at the same time, the new adventure suited to gunslinger/inventor is coming out multiple months after said classes were released.

I would think people would hold off on running adventures - and therefore buying the books - if a perfectly suited class is coming out a few months down the road.

I think Knights of Lastwall is a new Lost Omens book, not a new adventure.

Joe Wells wrote:

https://twitter.com/donatoclassic/status/1431420401465184260?s=20

Luis wrote:

Hey, big news on the Lost Omens front!

Presenting Lost Omens Knights of Lastwall, a book all about the Knights of Lastwall and their righteous endeavors to do good, destroy undead, and put an end to the machinations of the Whispering Tyrant.

As much as I'm most excited for the Occultist/Antiquarian... Lastwall synergises really well with both Inquisitor and Warlord sorta characters.

If this turns out to be the case, meaning I guessed right again, I’m buying a lotto ticket.

Hey, the Lastwall book could also lead into an Eye of Dread one, which has plenty of room for an Antiquarian to tag along in an accompanying rules book! This might be the year of spooky stuff.

If we get a Sarkorian AP AND an Impossible Lands AP in the same year, I will be giddy.

Only thing that would please me more would be an Arkadia AP, but we need more groundwork for that (though modules and one-shots might work okay).

If we get a Sarkorian AP AND an Impossible Lands AP in the same year, I will be giddy.

Only thing that would please me more would be an Arkadia AP, but we need more groundwork for that (though modules and one-shots might work okay).

You’re describing my ideal release year! I really want more stuff for Sarkorian PCs, and getting some love for them also increases my odds of a hop over the border into Numeria for some sci-fi weirdness. An Arcadia release feels inevitable at this point; I just hope it’s soon.

Yeah, I'm leaning more than ever to the idea that these classes will be an Inquisitor and some sort of Warlor/Envoy/Marshal-type (hopefully with the Legendary advancement for armor proficiency that I have been wanting).

I’m honestly leaning more towards my idea that this is some kind of Horror Heroes book, what with a 2022 that seems heavy on undead and the Eye of Dread region, which would likely have Inquisitor (as a holy monster hunter) and some kind of spooky Occult class.

Warlord is something I dearly want, and it does fit the Knights well, but the book I would pin it for (with mass combat options and martial toys) doesn’t quite fit as well. I doubt they’re exactly throwing armies at hordes of zombies.

Remember, folks, these two classes have to share a book with a common theme.

Why wouldn't they be throwing armies at zombies? That's exactly what the Knights of Lastwall did when fighting the Whispering Tyrant and his hordes during the Shining Crusade.

That said, in doubt the playtest classes or mass combat rules are likely to come in a Lost Omens book. It's more likely they'll be in a yet to be announced Rulebook line product. The announcement of the LO: Knights of Lastwall and AP: Outlaws of Alkenstar hardly spoil much. But announcing whatever Rulebook these classes are scheduled to release in would likely be too telling. So I don't think we will see that until actual Gen Con.

Also, I love the conflicting ideas between the Book of the Dead and Knights of Lastwall here Paizo. Very nice.

I don't know if we will get another Horror Adventures type of book, but they did say they want to experiment with their formats and intend to do things a little differently this time around for 2E. It could be horror or it could be something a little more tangential to horror, too, like dystopian apocalypse, "We are the monsters", zombie romance comedy, or Scooby Doo mystery... :) Okay, maybe not those, but something different, yet the same. But, Medium, Occultist, and Shaman could work well with horror, too.

I would like a Shaman or Medium class, but we just got a whole bunch of magic stuff. (I never got to play a Medium, but always wanted to try it and while I never liked the mechanics of the Shaman class in 1E, I thought it had a lot of great, but wasted potential as a concept and because I have fond memories of playing a Shaman in old AD&D back in the early 90s when it came out in a supplement around that time.) Though, we are also getting Gunslinger and Inventor soon and that is what I expect to be my favorite of all the classes with all the smarts, crazy craftiness, gadgets, and gearhead tankiness I can stand...!

Sorry, got a little too worked up, there... But, after the steampunk classes, I suppose a back to basics with standard, fantasy warfare could punch the right ticket for a lot of folks who just want to get back to western fantasy warfare-type classes. I just like smart character types. But, I also like to do the tanking in the party, too. If I can tank with a Warlord or whatever it gets called, I will be happy. I used to play Magus, Alchemist, Inquisitor, and Summoner in 1E. So, I will be quite happy to see the Inquisitor return. It'll probably be pretty influenced by the Witcher this go-around, though. (Not that that is a bad thing - just saying because I do like the Witcher books.)

Hopefully we can see a lot of non-western influences in the design of whatever classes they come out with. I like learning about the point of view of other cultures and ethnic groups and seeing those influences in what might otherwise might be boring western stories I have seen all my life.

I’m honestly leaning more towards my idea that this is some kind of Horror Heroes book, what with a 2022 that seems heavy on undead and the Eye of Dread region, which would likely have Inquisitor (as a holy monster hunter) and some kind of spooky Occult class.

Warlord is something I dearly want, and it does fit the Knights well, but the book I would pin it for (with mass combat options and martial toys) doesn’t quite fit as well. I doubt they’re exactly throwing armies at hordes of zombies.

Remember, folks, these two classes have to share a book with a common theme.

See, I don't think we'll get a Horror Hero book. Not for next July. If I guess correctly, they'll save that for a fall release, when they can put out a somewhat more niche/genre specific book, and put out something more broadly applicable in their mid-year release. Sort of how Secrets of Magic will affect every campaign, but Guns and Gears will simply not be allowed at a lot of tables in almost its entirety.

Note also that the APG and Pathfinder itself was a Gencon release, while Gamemastery Guide was later in the year. Mind, Beginner Box breaks that mold somewhat (being broadly appealing even if it is clearly targeted at a specific audience), so I'm not 100% sure I'm correct, but that is my guess and the logic behind it.

Instead, I think an organization specific themed book, probably with kingdom, faction, castle, and other various campaign add on rules, would make a lot of sense and combine several projects they've had to ad hoc over the last couple of years. Both the Inquisitor, being a character that is specifically backed by a particular organization (even more so than clerics or even champions, both of whom get direct orders from the deity where the inquisitor answers to a church) and Warlords would fit THAT theme.

Which, of course, would leave room for the Antiquarian, Medium, Shaman, or Kineticist for that horror book you proposed.

Yeah, I'm leaning more than ever to the idea that these classes will be an Inquisitor and some sort of Warlor/Envoy/Marshal-type (hopefully with the Legendary advancement for armor proficiency that I have been wanting).

Concerning the last bit, I saw a comment in another thread that mentioned Knight Orders (ala Cavalier) as a non-aligned champion option. I think that might be a way to go for having a non-aligned armor character while not stepping on the Champions turf. It let's the Marshal have room to stretch it's legs in its own way, too.

Why wouldn't they be throwing armies at zombies? That's exactly what the Knights of Lastwall did when fighting the Whispering Tyrant and his hordes during the Shining Crusade.

Do they still have any? Didn't they just get rolled?

So did the pathfinder society, but, you know. Goblins and humans are born every day, so the ranks can be filled up over the course of a couple years.

Ashanderai wrote:

Yeah, I'm leaning more than ever to the idea that these classes will be an Inquisitor and some sort of Warlor/Envoy/Marshal-type (hopefully with the Legendary advancement for armor proficiency that I have been wanting).

Concerning the last bit, I saw a comment in another thread that mentioned Knight Orders (ala Cavalier) as a non-aligned champion option. I think that might be a way to go for having a non-aligned armor character while not stepping on the Champions turf. It let's the Marshal have room to stretch it's legs in its own way, too.

I'm aware. That was a conversation I was a part of.

Ashanderai wrote:

Yeah, I'm leaning more than ever to the idea that these classes will be an Inquisitor and some sort of Warlor/Envoy/Marshal-type (hopefully with the Legendary advancement for armor proficiency that I have been wanting).

Concerning the last bit, I saw a comment in another thread that mentioned Knight Orders (ala Cavalier) as a non-aligned champion option. I think that might be a way to go for having a non-aligned armor character while not stepping on the Champions turf. It let's the Marshal have room to stretch it's legs in its own way, too.

This is my hope. Idk if I would want to attach it to the Warlord, if only to keep it focused. But we shall see.

EDIT: I feel like the Champion's Cause and Cavalier's Orders are already so similar, it only make sense to attach it to the Champion. A set of edicts (which would be the tenets) and three abilities as you level. The only thing they'd have to rework is making one of the abilities a reaction and adding a Focus Spell.

Wouldn't the timing be off though? The next classes will be a gencon release. Why would they release a themed adventure perfect for a class, multiple months before said class comes out? SoM and SoT were (supposed to be) released at the same time, the new adventure suited to gunslinger/inventor is coming out multiple months after said classes were released.

I would think people would hold off on running adventures - and therefore buying the books - if a perfectly suited class is coming out a few months down the road.

Agreed. The play test begins after GencCon, for a book announced during Gen Con (Unless James meant the book will be 'talked about' and not 'announced' at GenCon).

Gaulin wrote:

Wouldn't the timing be off though? The next classes will be a gencon release. Why would they release a themed adventure perfect for a class, multiple months before said class comes out? SoM and SoT were (supposed to be) released at the same time, the new adventure suited to gunslinger/inventor is coming out multiple months after said classes were released.

I would think people would hold off on running adventures - and therefore buying the books - if a perfectly suited class is coming out a few months down the road.

Agreed. The play test begins after GencCon, for a book announced during Gen Con (Unless James meant the book will be 'talked about' and not 'announced' at GenCon).

When was gunslinger/inventor play test?

January, it looks like.

Curaigh wrote:

Gaulin wrote:

Wouldn't the timing be off though? The next classes will be a gencon release. Why would they release a themed adventure perfect for a class, multiple months before said class comes out? SoM and SoT were (supposed to be) released at the same time, the new adventure suited to gunslinger/inventor is coming out multiple months after said classes were released.

I would think people would hold off on running adventures - and therefore buying the books - if a perfectly suited class is coming out a few months down the road.

Agreed. The play test begins after GencCon, for a book announced during Gen Con (Unless James meant the book will be 'talked about' and not 'announced' at GenCon).

When was gunslinger/inventor play test?

January, it looks like.

Yes, but that G&G playtest was after the Magus and Summoner SoM playtest and the Starfinder Precog playtest that took place right after GenCon last year.

The SoM playtest was in September 2020 and the Starfinder Precog playtest was in November 2020. Then G&G was in January.

Warlord and inquisitor would be great for the year of the undead we seem to be getting

While catching up to this thread, a thought occurred to me, that several of the class concepts people have championed (like Inquisitor and several of the Occult adventures, like Medium and maybe even Occultist) could steal a page from the Stances rules architecture, in differing ways, as a basis to branch off.

Medium, for example, could have various 'Stances' (which may be more of a long term thing than just encounter mode, I realize) to choose as they make connections to various spirit types, and perhaps have a 'whichever one you chose first this day' (not necessarily at spell prep, depending on how hard or simple they want to make choices) is your primary one, but with a a 'Stance' like option to engage a different one later in the day temporarily, with some drawbacks (like your 'I was here first!' spirit might back off some of its granted bonuses/abilities once you let go of the 'secondary' spirit cause they're grumpy at you).

A similar 'I choose you today but can opt to borrow later' idea could be applied for Shaman spirits.

Inquisitor could have a 'stance' based Judgement system, and you pick and choose via feats which ones are available to you. Because the Focus system just wouldn't do as well to represent, I think, but that is their other likely method (I'd save that for Bane effects or other 'stronger' advantages). An action to activate, and then potentially change, your Judgements, feels like it would be a good fit.

Random thoughts are random, after all. :)

The more I think about it the more I would like Inquisitor and Warlord (though I'd prefer the name Commander) as the playtest classes, both representing a split in the Champion's central theme. Inquisitor absorbs the religious adherence to faith aspects of the divine warrior concept and doubles down on a more magical offensive martial, Commander takes the defensive support martial and doubles down on being a leader and inspiration for the team actively invested in uplifting their allies. A nonreligious nonmagical defensive martial and a religious offensive martial wavecaster to serve as adjacent themes to the religious defensive martial focus caster seems like a cool pairing of related ideas that would work together with one book pretty easily.

Though more than that wish (since that's pretty specific) I hope one of the playtest classes is a bounded caster. Bounded casting is a cool mechanic, and I think it's one that might take a few iterations to hit the sweet spot of awesome fusion of concept and mechanics so I want to see more of them in development exploring the design space it opens up.

If they do make a PF2 Inquisitor I hope it's really heavily re-imagined like the Swashbuckler was. Feel like there's a lot of more interesting stuff they could do with the divine warrior design space than judgement and bane... Judgement feels a lot like hunt prey anyways.

A cool way to foil the Champion might be giving it an emphasis on mobility and some decent mid ranged options, putting it opposite its tanky, stationary, mostly close range counterpart. Kinda just describing the 4e avenger there but w/e that'd be ideal for me anyways.

I like the Inquisitor class a lot, but I would much rather see another Primal or Occult class before another Divine one.

The more I think about it the more I would like Inquisitor and Warlord (though I'd prefer the name Commander) as the playtest classes, both representing a split in the Champion's central theme. Inquisitor absorbs the religious adherence to faith aspects of the divine warrior concept and doubles down on a more magical offensive martial, Commander takes the defensive support martial and doubles down on being a leader and inspiration for the team actively invested in uplifting their allies. A nonreligious nonmagical defensive martial and a religious offensive martial wavecaster to serve as adjacent themes to the religious defensive martial focus caster seems like a cool pairing of related ideas that would work together with one book pretty easily.

Though more than that wish (since that's pretty specific) I hope one of the playtest classes is a bounded caster. Bounded casting is a cool mechanic, and I think it's one that might take a few iterations to hit the sweet spot of awesome fusion of concept and mechanics so I want to see more of them in development exploring the design space it opens up.

Those is exaclty what I’m hoping for as well.

Started wanting Kineticist and Inquisitor, but then this thread made me want a Warlord/Commander/martial that gets the legendary armor proficiency of Champions and can buff without casting/performing

I'd love a purely offensive divine melee character.

I am really starting to dislike and even hate the name, Commander, for a Warlord/Envoy/Marshal class concept. It breaks me out of the fantasy game mindset I normally have when thinking about Pathfinder and makes me recall my time in the military (a mixed bag of memories, including tragic ones) instead of enabling my enjoyment of fantasy. I say this after using it in this way several times myself, but I have tried to get away from it because of this issue I am having with it now. Warlord isn't very pleasant for me, either (for similar reasons); but, I would rather that than Commander since Warlord does sound more Medieval to me and we do need some sort of name for it. I'm just trying to go with the one that is the least unpleasant for me.

Seems pretty medieval to me.

Seems pretty medieval to me.

I never stated that it wasn't. I only stated what the word meant to me. I know very well the history of the word. Please don't patronize me.

13th Age called their Warlord-equivalent the Commander and it never felt jarring to my group. YMMV, of course, but medieval-ish fantasy settings have plenty of people who command troops; I don’t think it’s going to drive away too many people.

I’d prefer Warlord if only for the nod to 4e, but I’ll be happy with whatever we get (assuming it’s this class at all, of course).

The thornier issue is what to potentially rename Inquisitor.

13th Age called their Warlord-equivalent the Commander and it never felt jarring to my group. YMMV, of course, but medieval-ish fantasy settings have plenty of people who command troops; I don’t think it’s going to drive away too many people.

I’d prefer Warlord if only for the nod to 4e, but I’ll be happy with whatever we get (assuming it’s this class at all, of course).

The thornier issue is what to potentially rename Inquisitor.

I don't think it will drive anyone away and it is certainly appropriate as a title for the concept we are aspiring to use it for. I was only expressing my point of view and I do not expect anyone to share that opinion. But, I also did not anticipate my opinions and the distant pain behind it to become a vessel for humor or belittlement, either.

EDIT: I don't mean you keftiu, if I was not clear.

Also, while it's only really marginally a piece of evidence, the iconic 1e inquisitor, Imjirka, is intensely well-suited for a book that ties into LO Knights of Lastwall, Book of the Dead and theoretical Eye of Dread AP and LO book - a half-orc Pharasmin inquisitor from Ustalav just hits a lot of boxes at once. (Similarly, though less so, with the 1e occultist iconic)

Of course it is entirely likely for them to come up with new iconics even for existing classes (we've got plenty of precedent for that already after all), and I doubt they'd base their book production on something like this, but still, it kind of fits, I think.

My intuition is Inquisitor and Occultist. That said, a Warlord could fit too and would fit the blog picture, even though I know this was the same picture eliciting the same guesses and expectations in the previous playtest.

But I feel a Warlord might be more appropriate in another future book centered on mundane adventurers (Deeds of Martials).

As for names, maybe Leader, Strategist or Tactician would have less direct military connotations.

Thinker might work too.

Warlord is defiently my top pick for the Class name for a few reasons. More than anything, however, none of the other possibilities are really inspiring to me. I'd maybe accept Commander, Tactician, or simply Lord as options; but all of them are fairly boring to me.

Of them all, I really don't care for Envoy or Marshal, as they already exist in Paizo products as a Class or Archetype, and I have an extreme dislike for repetition in naming conventions.

As long as the name fits the theme of the class, I'll resign myself to its use. Unless it's called Antipaladin... In which case, we burn it with the flames of a millions stars.

With the announcement of Knights of Lastwall and Book of the Dead I wonder what kind of book will be the new core that will bring two new classes. Book of the dead will feature new ancestry, lots of monsters, description of themed places, items.... and Knights of Last Wall will complete with more about Golarion and his brave knights. What will the new book add to that?

My intuition is Inquisitor and Occultist. That said, a Warlord could fit too and would fit the blog picture, even though I know this was the same picture eliciting the same guesses and expectations in the previous playtest.

I think Mark Seifter said last time the picture was supposed to convey "we have a plan" more than "any details about the classes to be playtested."

I have no interest in a warlord class whatsoever, but happy to see other folks get something they're excited for if that is the case.

I have no interest in a warlord class whatsoever, but happy to see other folks get something they're excited for if that is the case.

I feel the same way about bringing the "Occultist" back as something renamed or otherwise, the flavor, mechanics, and fiddly components of some of this Class were always a huge turn-off, personally.

I have no interest in a warlord class whatsoever, but happy to see other folks get something they're excited for if that is the case.

A survey I did last week has shown that top 3 most wanted classes are inquisitor, warlord and kineticist. Inquisitor is wanted the most and the other two had a very similar vote count.

nephandys wrote:

I have no interest in a warlord class whatsoever, but happy to see other folks get something they're excited for if that is the case.

A survey I did last week has shown that top 3 most wanted classes are inquisitor, warlord and kineticist. Inquisitor is wanted the most and the other two had a very similar vote count.

Were there any other classes named in the survey that weren't versions of PF1 classes? I imagine there's going to be a lot of support for anything we get that's brand new.

I'm slightly surprised to see you say that, given the inventor.

I am really starting to dislike and even hate the name, Commander, for a Warlord/Envoy/Marshal class concept. It breaks me out of the fantasy game mindset I normally have when thinking about Pathfinder and makes me recall my time in the military (a mixed bag of memories, including tragic ones) instead of enabling my enjoyment of fantasy. I say this after using it in this way several times myself, but I have tried to get away from it because of this issue I am having with it now. Warlord isn't very pleasant for me, either (for similar reasons); but, I would rather that than Commander since Warlord does sound more Medieval to me and we do need some sort of name for it. I'm just trying to go with the one that is the least unpleasant for me.

Even if I am one of the ones using the name as it were already a class, I do have one reservation to the name quite separate from your own: I dislike the idea of a class name that gives the impression that you are in command of the party.

I hope if we get mass combat rules soon, they don't have a centralized commander role.

In my very biased opinion, I feel like it's a little unfair to pick warlord as a class people want coming. Because it's not a class we've had in pathfinder, everyone has their own view of how it should work.

In my very biased opinion, I feel like it's a little unfair to pick warlord as a class people want coming. Because it's not a class we've had in pathfinder, everyone has their own view of how it should work.

Reading back on the various threads where the forum (and I include myself in this) bickered over the kineticist, including this one, I'm not sure that's a valid concern. We're going to do that anyways.