Organized Play Schedule Update

Personally, less numbered PFS scenarios is less pathfinder my group will play. We do not enjoy the one-shots, don't run APs due to rotating players because of schedules, and don't play SF or SFS. This announcement just means we need to find a new game system to play multiple times per month now and frankly, that's a bummer.

So, during the rest of the year, we'll be missing One scenario from what we were used to - Instead of 2 per month, october we only get 1.

Sure, A couple less scenarios per year isn't ideal, but I don't think it's as big of a problem as some people seem to be making it, especially if you're limiting the available content yourself by not playing one-shots or bounties.

Maybe you should give SFS a try?

(And why aren't you enjoying them? They are practically speaking the same as a stand-alone-scenario that doesn't tie into metaplot, only difference being that they are designed for 1 specific level instead of a 4 level range, and they give more freedom for GM to run it as they see fit. The biggest problem is that one-shot-2 pregens are poorly equipped to handle the threats thrown at them, but that's nothing a GM can't fix, and you don't have to play the pregens if you don't want to.)

What, Mosquito Witch hate?? It's my favorite!

Okay, so you have to run it very differently from most PFS scenarios. The ending's in a very different style. If you're expecting your typical PFS romp, it's not for you.

But mystery! Horror! Laid out in a way that you can make it work well in PFS!

(I might be a dork.)

I ran it 5 times at the opening Gencon. Had a lot of fun with it.

I am disappointed by this news. As I'm not a big fan of Bounties, and as the One-shots don't offer Reputation, I see this as a net loss. But you gotta do what you gotta do Paizo.

As others have said, increasing the lower level adventures at the expense of higher level play is disappointing. It seems to me that more level 1 bounties just mean that others don't get played. There's only so many that are needed in my opinion, especially with PFS2 2-11 The Pathfinder Trials, a 4xp scenario that is also restricted to level 1.

Changing some of the already published adventures to be repeatable would help. However, as one of those players waiting anxiously for higher level play I'm very sad at this news.

I understand the stress and burden of the schedule seems to be too much for the current production staff, that they were way over-worked. I do hope that things progress to the point that the situation can be improved with greater income and thus more staff.

I do wonder about the subscriptions, their cost, and the reduction in what those customers will receive vs what they expect. It does look like a loss of at least a third of their normal items, from 24 to 16?

I think this is horrible news, but hopefully Paizo will prove me wrong.
I go to A LOT of Cons. I GM a lot at Cons. I love PFS/SFS! I have ran modules at Cons. I have done/ran Quests in the past and enjoyed them.

What I haven't done is play or GM a single bounty! I just have never seen the point or the attraction. Getting more things I don't/haven't used/played in the place of things I do use/like is not a benefit or cause of excitement for me at all!

As far as one shots go I think they are fun and make great Twitch/Youtube fodder to watch/listen too, I'm just not too sure about running them at Cons as PFS/SFS content.

I will also echo the sentiment that I feel a little thrown by the wayside with the perceived focus on more lower level/introductory content at the expense of higher level scenarios! Also my pumping out more level 1 content and curtailing 1-4,3-6,5-8 level scenarios you end up with a "what do I play now problem" for a lot of your long time players.

I guess we will all just wait and see how this all turns out since Paizo has numbers and data to show this is what the majority of people want. Hopefully I am wrong and my fears unfounded. Best case scenario would be this spurs so much new player growth that they HAVE to go back to the old model just to keep people in content to play!

Love you Paizo team! Keep watching the trends and making the best decisions that you can.

No complaints here but I will echo many in wanting more repeatable content. I think I've worn holes in all of the repeatable scenarios that are out right now and could easily run some of the other scenarios again with the same group and a very different experience/outcome. They don't need to be as variable as 1-01 to be repeatable.

I'm also just unsure of why everything isn't repeatable as the only thing that is doing is limiting the amount of times content is played...and I'm not really sure what the market reason is for doing that.

Still love all the content you are putting out, happy to see you try new things that draw interest and keep the creators engaged!

I'm also just unsure of why everything isn't repeatable as the only thing that is doing is limiting the amount of times content is played...and I'm not really sure what the market reason is for doing that.

It’s a long standing discussion.

Stealing this list from the post in the first link. I recommend reading Walter's breakdown.

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Here are some large threads from each year from the last 5 years about this topic.

2017
2016
2015
2014
2013
2012

(Stay with me it’s a positive post I promise).

The issue is, between rona ruining a lot of in person play and pf2 not getting the reception they hoped, they’re struggling. Now I’m not saying PF1 wasn’t struggling but imho a bad situation got worse. You took a dying player base and changed their game to something they didn’t want. You have an IP that new players don’t care about. You have a system that is SUPER clunky especially to new players/GMs.

So the twelve of you upset that the number of scenarios is going down have to realize if Paizo doesn’t find a way to breathe some life into this thing you’re going to get 0 new scenarios a month. They might as well go back to printing dragon magazine if something doesn’t improve.

-Gilardes the lover of all things beautiful….. and EVERYTHING is beautiful.

I'm going to try and answer points raised in the thread, but I may miss a few (and some plans aren't quite ready for primetime.)

* Yes, we are looking at replay options. Not from the "produce more replayable scenarios" position, as that is putting the burden back on the DigiDevs, but from an Ops/program standpoint. There are tech limitations we are trying to clear and hope to have more news in the not-so-distant future.

* We aren't producing any more level 1 Pathfinder bounties after this year. All Pathfinder bounties will be level 3 (and we are discussing if that goes higher in the future)

* Starfinder bounties will be for level 1 this year. We will evaluate the value of level 3 (see above) and will most likely make any desired changes in 2023.

* Nowhere in Erik's blog do we talk about reducing high-level content. We've got plans (well, Mike/Jenny/Linda have plans, tbh). While we have to keep some lower-level content, we are still going to give the high-level characters some love as well.

* We also haven't announced the One-Shot plans for 2022. That isn't my info to share, so you'll have to be patient. I would ask you to hold conjecture/speculation until we actually drop the info, then you can grump/praise as you desire.

*As for the Paizo advantage benefit, it is actually not too much lower than what it was. In 2021, we increased the cost for the higher-level content, due to the extra resources each of them takes. If you factor that increase into the equation, the value stays about the same for PFS and drops a bit for SFS.

*Comparing AP volumes to OP scenarios isn't quite apples to apples, due to the products needing different workflows. APs are less intensive on the pre-production, due to fewer outlines, but have more art needs, while the sheer number of OP items means more freelancer interactions, more outlines, more feedback, and more handling in general.

*DigiDevs are part of the Digital Adventures Team, which encompasses production on One-Shots, Bounties, and Org Play products. This is what they will be working on. The reduction of OP is to reduce DigiTeam workload, not to repurpose it.

*This is the projection for 2022. Every spring, we look at the data when planning our schedules for the next year. Are we stuck at this level of support always? NO! Would we like to hire more staff? YES! How can we effect this number? REPORT GAMES! The best way you can help us to give you what you want is by reporting games you run/play so we have metrics. As Erik has noted in the past, we will produce what our consumers show they want. How do we know what they want? Sales.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk!

We aren't producing any more level 1 Pathfinder bounties after this year.

Okay, that makes me sad =(

I totally hate this idea. I'd rather see 10-13 content than low level stuff. Also the move back to stores sucks.

o.O

* Nowhere in Erik's blog do we talk about reducing high-level content.

o.O

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

* Nowhere in Erik's blog do we talk about reducing high-level content.

So are there going to be high level quest, bounties and one shots? I already have 9 characters I feel like I'm going to have 14 by the end of the year if only level 1-3 stuff comes out for short sessions. Because I will want to play them.

* We aren't producing any more level 1 Pathfinder bounties after this year. All Pathfinder bounties will be level 3 (and we are discussing if that goes higher in the future)

TOZ wrote:

o.O

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

* Nowhere in Erik's blog do we talk about reducing high-level content.

So are there going to be high level quest, bounties and one shots?

While I wish it wasn't so as I liked the Quest format better than Bounties, Quests are a discontinued series. They were replaced by Bounties.

TOZ wrote:

o.O

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

* Nowhere in Erik's blog do we talk about reducing high-level content.

So are there going to be high level quest, bounties and one shots? I already have 9 characters I feel like I'm going to have 14 by the end of the year if only level 1-3 stuff comes out for short sessions. Because I will want to play them.

The One-Shots level depends on the story they want to tell, so I expect they will jump around. That is a Thurston reveal for later, though, so I can just give my tangential take from some early meetings.

Quests, as noted above, have been discontinued in favor of Bounties. Does this mean they will never come back? No, but not in 2022.

Bounties will be level 3 for PFS, as stated above.

I do want to clarify. We are not producing any more 1st level Pathfinder bounties in 2022. This, as with all things in the email, may change in 2023 as we look at data and make projections for the program.

I would note, we took a look at last month's reporting numbers and saw a jump in the number of games played. Thank you to everyone who's making reporting games a priority. It really helps us get a better picture of our community activity. Keep it up!

Quests, as noted above, have been discontinued in favor of Bounties. Does this mean they will never come back? No, but not in 2022.

I really liked the Quests - even as they rubbed up on 90+ minutes in actual runtime.

I'm wondering now what a 2xp or 3xp adventure might look like...

I was surprised to see so many people upset about this announcement. I recently played Band on the Run with the pre-gens, and it was a LOT of fun. I understand that many people want to play their own character most of the time, but this was a nice break. If you haven't tried the pre-gens, give them a shot. You might enjoy them more than you think you would.

I was surprised to see so many people upset about this announcement. I recently played Band on the Run with the pre-gens, and it was a LOT of fun. I understand that many people want to play their own character most of the time, but this was a nice break. If you haven't tried the pre-gens, give them a shot. You might enjoy them more than you think you would.

Considerations like the fact that they are, by name a 'One Shot' might factor in.

Despite being careful (and not playing PF2 for almost a year after launch due to a rough experience GMing at GenCon for Launch) I'm starting to run out of non-Repeatable content that I can have characters play.

In addition, as mentioned above, they give no Reputation. This could be potentially hampering to some characters in their future.

This should NOT be taken as an appeal for blanket Repeatables of all scenarios -- some scenarios do not work in a Repeatable format, and others are so clunky due to how much was put into them to make them Repeatable that they're also as much work as two or three non-repeatable scenarios to put together.

With all of the above taken into consideration, I had more fun with Lion Lodge than Sundered Waves -- Sundered Waves felt incredibly punitive at points, Lion Lodge had the right balance of 'creepy' and 'horror' in it that I didn't feel overwhelmed.

Haven't had a chance to play Band on the run... band on the run... yet -- when it was offered at places I was having technical difficulties or had to work.

To help make up for the slower pace of release, how about making previous seasons all replayable? That way, we can continue playing with our same frequency (and not having to create a dozen characters).

See above.

Yes, we are looking at replay options

Just remember there is a point of critical mass. There is a not insignificant portion of the community that does not want to see replayable content expand and at some point will walk away if it becomes too pervasive. Of course, players leave all the time, some return, so the gains made by increasing replay may out-pace the losses. Only time and Paizo’s data will prove which is the case. It’s just a data point to consider that an action taken could directly lead to the loss of existing participants at a time when the focus seems to be on expansion. YMMV

Nowhere in Erik's blog do we talk about reducing high-level content. We've got plans (well, Mike/Jenny/Linda have plans, tbh). While we have to keep some lower-level content, we are still going to give the high-level characters some love as well.

I think part of the fear is we don’t know the distribution of the one shots which makes the release schedule, based on Erik’s description, seem bottom heavy. Clearly there will be more focus on Bounties and those will (all?) be level 3. If the number of mid-high level scenarios are to remain consistent, that means the quantity of low-level PFS-specific scenarios has to reduce to make room for the Bounties and One-shots. Until we see the distribution of those product lines there is going to be fear that they won’t properly fill the slot currently occupied by the scenarios. Org Play is by its very nature a heavily managed community and this “unknown” is having an effect on both the organizers and the players as they coordinate their games months down the calendar. It’s easy to say “be patient” when you know what the entire plan is. It’s another to tell someone who is partially in the dark to assume everything will work out to their benefit. Many of the rules, policies, practices, etc. of org play are not universally beneficial to the global community.

That way, we can continue playing with our same frequency (and not having to create a dozen characters).

You might want to just consider doing Slow Track.

I sympathize with having too many characters. I had 39 PFS1 characters and am up to 20 SFS. A lot of my PFS2 characters are actually just recreations of the PCs I didn't get to play much last time.

So when I found myself creating a -2015, I decided it was just easier to designate one favorite character for every subtier (so 1, 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 and 9-10 so far) and play them Slow, rather than continue creating character numbers and diluting my creativity.

One shots can be fun and as long as the GM doesn't restrict it to just the pre-gen characters in it then I can always "recreate" my appropriate PFS character to run in it at the appropriate level. Unfortunately, as others have said, they don't reward reputation which is somewhat off-putting. That is why I haven't bought the two that are out as I run games almost exclusively for society play now and that is a tough pill to swallow.

Solution - for Nethys' sake, have the one-shots reward the same reputation as a PFS scenario! How does that unbalance anything? I mean, I ran my home group (the one exception to my society play) through Extinction Curse and THAT gives reputation. So it obviously isn't due to the player might not being a society member as EC doesn't assume that either. Honestly, the 1 shots not getting reputation seems more like an oversight than anything.

One shots can be fun and as long as the GM doesn't restrict it to just the pre-gen characters

Unfortunately, you are going to find it happening quite a bit given the text in the sanctioning document, "While not required, we recommend using the provided characters." Personally, I would like to see that language editing both in the existing documents and future ones to downplay the "recommendation."

Thing is, GMs who are story focused [b] are [/] going to want to use them because their backgrounds enhance the stories of the one shots. I understand people wanting to play their characters, but as someone who plays and runs a lot, I will take story over mechanics any day.

Invictus Novo wrote:

One shots can be fun and as long as the GM doesn't restrict it to just the pre-gen characters

Unfortunately, you are going to find it happening quite a bit given the text in the sanctioning document, "While not required, we recommend using the provided characters." Personally, I would like to see that language editing both in the existing documents and future ones to downplay the "recommendation."

Given that that language is both in the sanctioning and in the guide, I doubt it will be softened.

I understand why a GM or organizer would want to use pregens for One Shots in an event setting (a convention or game day). Nobody wants to waste time creating characters (or reviewing characters) when there's a limited amount of time to play. That's the way tables I went to at GenCon were back in the day before any kind of organized play--you had pregens or you ate all your time creating characters--and I didn't much like the experience. Being able to use my own character is why I like organized play.

So I understand, but I probably won't be playing One Shots.

I am not opposed to One Shots. Let's face it, most scenarios not connected to the meta-arc are basically one shots with a VC intro slapped on. I don't see it as much of an issue for the GM to create a similar treatment on their own to make a One Shot at least "feel" like a scenario. OTOH, the more content that is produced that does not cater to the org play campaign, the less reason there is to participate in it. Now that the vast majority of gaming is being done online, it has become incredibly easy to find a group of players and even a GM willing to run a reoccurring campaign. For the first time in nearly a decade, I've managed to start two separate ongoing groups which has significantly reduced my dependence on org play and I have heard similar stories from quite a few community members.

The main thing I am concerned with is that when the org play developers were "rebranded" to do more than just org play material, it was said it would not affect the quantity of org play material. Now, just a short time later, we're seeing a reduction in org play specific material and an expansion of unrelated material. Sure its sanctioned, but it loses some luster since it has to be applicable to a wider audience. Bounties are not a substitute for fully developed adventures. So for many of us the increase in Bounty/One Shot production coupled with a decrease in org play specific material is troublesome, especially if it turns out there is less high-level material being produced for the campaign.

It is quite possible that our fears are misplaced, but they will remain until we see proof that the amount of interesting and org play dedicated material does not shrink as a result of these realignments.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

Thing is, GMs who are story focused [b] are [/] going to want to use them because their backgrounds enhance the stories of the one shots. I understand people wanting to play their characters, but as someone who plays and runs a lot, I will take story over mechanics any day.

Right this is the primary issue as I see it.

In order to do these One-Shots well, you basically NEED to run it with the pre-gens and that's gonna create a dip in how hot these are going to be

Well to be fair if a GM really wants to they can also create their own fitting pregens for a one-shot, or replace some of them if they do not find them appealing, or change their mechanics if they feel like it is a good change.

Ivis Flanagan wrote:

Thing is, GMs who are story focused [b] are [/] going to want to use them because their backgrounds enhance the stories of the one shots. I understand people wanting to play their characters, but as someone who plays and runs a lot, I will take story over mechanics any day.

Right this is the primary issue as I see it.

In order to do these One-Shots well, you basically NEED to run it with the pre-gens and that's gonna create a dip in how hot these are going to be

Do you, though? I didn’t really find anything in Lionlodge that felt tied to my pregen’s background in an important way (You’re a hunter and you’re going to a hunting lodge was the short version). Sundered Waves has a little more. The strongest part of that was the small cues about the other pregens, which contributes some to roleplaying at the start. Past that, though, I’m not sure what would be different if it had been PFS characters who had been provided the same clues. And I usually feel a lot more comfortable roleplaying my own character than one that is handed to me right before the game (I had more time than that with the character beforehand, but many players won’t know which Pregen they are using until the slot starts).

I didn’t really find anything in Lionlodge that felt tied to my pregen’s background in an important way

They're designed to help reveal the full story. Which is important.

Each NPC has a different Lore that uncovers knowledge both before you get to Lionlodge, and when you're there.

Plus, there's a useful magic item that can only be recovered by a Tiny creature, and the Kitsune has Fox Form.

And the very beginning intro ties into the journal discovery at the end as to why you four were specifically selected.

Random adventurers can overcome the challenges and survive, but that's not the entire goal of publishing this adventure.

On top of the role-play cues, one big aspect of Sundered Waves (and to a pretty similar extentwith 1-00 with the first set of level 5 pregens) -- the scenarios are tougher with the pregens than without. And times when people bring their own characters, even if not OP, they still make it significantly easier.

Ferious Thune wrote:

I didn’t really find anything in Lionlodge that felt tied to my pregen’s background in an important way

They're designed to help reveal the full story. Which is important.

Each NPC has a different Lore that uncovers knowledge both before you get to Lionlodge, and when you're there.

Plus, there's a useful magic item that can only be recovered by a Tiny creature, and the Kitsune has Fox Form.

And the very beginning intro ties into the journal discovery at the end as to why you four were specifically selected.

Random adventurers can overcome the challenges and survive, but that's not the entire goal of publishing this adventure.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t other ways that a PFS character might discover those same things. Plenty of characters can roll any lore recall skill. We managed to get the item without using Fox form (with a different pregens ability). I’m assuming our GM skipped the info in the journal at the end, but that certainly doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, and a nod to the backstories at the end of the scenario isn’t really accomplishing much to make you feel like playing that pregen is important while you’re actually playing them during the scenario.

I’m not saying there’s no effort to tie the pregens into the scenario. Just that it never get significant or like I was getting something meaningful out of playing that character instead of one of my own. Basically, I don’t see how any PFS character is going to feel more out of place in either of those one-shots than they do in a normal PFS scenario. It’s not like the venture captains never send Barbarians to dinner parties. And if there is some crucial piece of story, a GM can figure out another way to get that to the party.

The mechanical reasons are potentially more significant, and I would expect PFS characters to have an easier time of it. Because it felt more like the limitations of the pregens were part of the balancing of the adventure. But that’s not part of the story. It’s part of the mechanics.

Lionlodge did make an effort to highlight some of the pregen abilities:

Like I said, "Random adventurers can overcome the challenges and survive, but that's not the entire goal of publishing this adventure."

I’m assuming our GM skipped the info in the journal at the end, but that certainly doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, and a nod to the backstories at the end of the scenario isn’t really accomplishing much to make you feel like playing that pregen is important while you’re actually playing them during the scenario.

Oh that's. Bad. Your GM didn't do the story justice. That explains why you think any PC would do.

I would suggest downloading the adventure and reading through it. It's not just a "nod to their backstories". These 4 were selected.

And, really, that connection is supposed to be felt throughout the adventure. Through the roleplay when you get to Lionlodge, when you find the journal, and during the dialogue of the final fight.

You might consider being a bit more careful with spoilers Nefreet.

Oh that's. Bad. Your GM didn't do the story justice. That explains why you think any PC would do.

In fairness, this tends to run quite long, especially if you're using the pregens. I'd tend to phrase this as "Paizo wrote a scenario that can't easily be done in a 4 hour time slot so the GM gets to pick what to drop from the scenario.

You might consider being a bit more careful with spoilers Nefreet.

I was. There are no spoilers in any of those posts.

Like I said, "Random adventurers can overcome the challenges and survive, but that's not the entire goal of publishing this adventure."

Ferious Thune wrote:

I’m assuming our GM skipped the info in the journal at the end, but that certainly doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, and a nod to the backstories at the end of the scenario isn’t really accomplishing much to make you feel like playing that pregen is important while you’re actually playing them during the scenario.

Oh that's. Bad. Your GM didn't do the story justice. That explains why you think any PC would do.

I would suggest downloading the adventure and reading through it. It's not just a "nod to their backstories". These 4 were selected.

And, really, that connection is supposed to be felt throughout the adventure. Through the roleplay when you get to Lionlodge, when you find the journal, and during the dialogue of the final fight.

Reading through it would require purchasing something I'm unlikely to ever GM, so I'll take your word for it.

If the one-shots are meant to be the story of the provided pregens, then more effort needs to be made (either by the GMs or the authors, wherever things are falling short right now) to make that the case. As I said, in both instances, the backstories of the character just felt like the excuse for why they are there at the start of the adventure, and never really came across as important to the story. Either could have been substituted with "The Society sent you," and I would have never known the difference. That might be on the GMs, but both of mine seemed to be experienced and invested in creating a fun game otherwise.

And to be fair, half the PFS scenarios contain information that you might never get in game that does a much better job of telling the story than what any particular group gets out of it.

The Blog wrote:

it allows us capacity to bring the popular Bounties program of self-contained shorter adventures to the Starfinder Society campaign starting in January of 2022, with six new Starfinder Bounties introduced over the course of next year, as well as publish new four Pathfinder Bounties for level 3 characters over the same period.

Oh heck yeah!

Please give us higher level bounties! I have a 9th level character with and odd amount of XP because of playing an odd number of quests and bounties.

...you still haven't GMed that FreeRPG Day Kobold Adventure, yet, right?

...you still haven't GMed that FreeRPG Day Kobold Adventure, yet, right?

Yes I GMed that adventure. Hoping then next free rpg adventure works the same way

With a lot of critical messages, I want to say that I am VERY happy you are making these changes. Getting more One Shot adventures is something I truly look forward to. I think one shots are a great addition to your offering, and getting "half a dozen" sounds amazing. We use them when one of our group is missing and we don't want to continue the main campaign of the group.

I can't really see that you are lowering the output at all, but you are shifting it away from content that has "PFS" slapped onto it, to content that feels like it is available for everyone.

Playing with 30+ y/o players, PFS as a concept always felt strange to us, and the two times I have run a PFS scenario at my main table, I removed all references to PFS from it. I do love to play PFS online as a player, however, but the concept of the PFS still feels strange to me. I'd play it all the same or even more without this label.

All this to say: Great changes, thank you!