Scrying on Subscriptions: Pathfinder Rulebooks

Unfortunately for European subscribers, all subscription products are shipped from the U.S, and with the new shipping provider, shipping costs have gone from high to insane. One adventure path volume? Before $5.65, now $10.36. Lost Omens line is around $30 each, box products up to $50 for one box. I am not saying you are overcharging, I am sure it costs that much for you, too. But, competitors have European warehouses and manage to ship for 2-5x lower shipping rates. Sure, I can buy Paizo products elsewhere, but the PDF is an important aspect of getting a sub in the first place. I really wish you’d upgrade your logistics to cater more for non-American subscribers.

Paizo is still a relatively small company and most of their shipping logistics is run in house from their own headquarters in Seattle. To upgrade logistics would require them to either A) open a warehouse in Europe somewhere, or B) subcontract out to a European/international shipping company to handle receiving, packing, and shipping the products to customers. A needs a large capital investment, and B would be ceding control of quality timelines to the other company. However, more than anything, both would require a large and reliable customer base in where ever they extend to, I think there was one time that Paizo contracted Amazon to deliver the international orders for the release of the Pathfinder 2e Core Rulebook.

Trust me, as someone living in Japan, I know that getting anything shipped from the US is flipping expensive, but 'upgrading their logistics' is probably fairly difficult to accomplish unless there's significant demand for overseas orders.

That is basically true but it is rather annoying by now to pay like triple for your books. I run 4 subs at the moment and play almost only on Fantasy Grounds. If I wouldn't need the pdfs for the Fantasy Grounds cross sale I would have canceled by now. The whole distribution should maybe be rethought. Even Games Workshop sends their books with codes for digital unlocks. It is not a pdf you get but something rather close if they finally get their app in a decent shape.

You can buy the PDFs just by themselves.

Not sure how sticking a code for the pdf in the book would help those with subscriptions over the current method.

You can buy the PDFs just by themselves.

You can, but only on the street date.

One of the reasons I like the subscription service is because I want the books asap, always and forever. Having two tiers of potential access, where some customers can have access to products nearly a month ahead of others is a workable model... just so long as it's open to anyone who wants to pay for it and as equally as possible.

They could bypass this whole setup with a different product offering - A PDF subscription which puts the books out for DL the exact same day as physical shipping starts.

Offer the PDF sub at a lower price than the physical sub, but include the pdf sub with the physical sub as part of the package. With the "early access" pdf being an incentive for the subscription (say, around 30 days before street date).

That way, international customers on a budget can get a PDF subscription. International customers who want the physical books can also get a book sub if they are fine with the shipping costs, but still, get the pdf access the same day as everyone else (since international shipping also takes longer).

Having two different subscription offerings would also be appealing for Paizo with a minor rework of their cancellation policy, as subscriptions would work like pre-orders in other mediums.

EDIT:

So for example, the two product offerings for Guns & Gears would look like this:

(1) Pathfinder Rulebook ongoing Subscription
- Includes Pathfinder Rulebook ongoing Digital Subscription
- Guns & Gears, $49.99
- Release date: 30th September 2021
- Early Access PDF: 31st August 2021

(2) Includes Pathfinder Rulebook ongoing Digital Subscription
- Guns & Gears, $25.99
- Early Access PDF: 31st August 2021

That way they charge $10 more for a digital sub, with the incentive being the early access.

Those who can't afford that wait for the street date for the $14.99 pdf, or those who can't afford that either wait for the crunchy parts to hit the archives.

You can buy the PDFs just by themselves.

Not sure how sticking a code for the pdf in the book would help those with subscriptions over the current method.

I could just buy the book off the shelf at Amazon or the local game shop in Germany without paying any shipping and get a free pdf. Only reason for the sub so far were the pdfs but the value kinda drops close to zero for international customers. I do want the physical book for reading and I love the production value of those special editions. But ordering in the US is getting really expensive. Also putting a higher price tag (+5 or 10 USD) on a special edition with a pdf code would be a nice solution to the problem.

Rysky wrote:

You can buy the PDFs just by themselves.

Not sure how sticking a code for the pdf in the book would help those with subscriptions over the current method.

I could just buy the book off the shelf at Amazon or the local game shop in Germany without paying any shipping and get a free pdf. Only reason for the sub so far were the pdfs but the value kinda drops close to zero for international customers. I do want the physical book for reading and I love the production value of those special editions. But ordering in the US is getting really expensive. Also putting a higher price tag (+5 or 10 USD) on a special edition with a pdf code would be a nice solution to the problem.

I kind of wish I could mark my subscription to get a code to buy my book from a friendly local game store (or even Amazon) just so I could get my subscription PDF instantly rather than wait for the physical book to ship from Paizo.

But I completely understand that Paizo's systems are in place for a good reason and I still LOVE being a subscriber!

What’s really interesting is that Chaosium (makers of the Cthulhu RPGs) ships European orders from Poland. Beginner box shipping was 7€. Versus $57 for the Beginner Box here at Paizo. And Chaosium is definitely not the size of Paizo.

Thing is: If I have a subscription, I “auto-spend” and don’t make individual purchasing decisions. Which arguably is good for business, and what Paizo lives on. Buying a $24.99 book from Paizo gives Paizo $24.99. Buying the same at Amazon or someone else probably gives them half that (just guessing). So yeah, it’s an investment, but it’s no longer 2010, there are now warehousing service providers. Also, ecologically: shipping the books from the printer in China to the US, then from the US to Europe (or back to Japan) makes no sense.

But codes in the boom would be a great start. It would also be beneficial to the local game shops to be able to have a product that includes the PDF. I also suggested to Paizo that they ship subscriptions in Europe directly to local game shops for pickup.

A large and reliable customer base doesn’t grow anywhere if shipping is so insanely expensive. I think the current business model seriously holds back Paizo products outside the U.S.

I kind of wish I could mark my subscription to get a code to buy my book from a friendly local game store (or even Amazon) just so I could get my subscription PDF instantly rather than wait for the physical book to ship from Paizo.

But I completely understand that Paizo's systems are in place for a good reason and I still LOVE being a subscriber!

Sorry we just parallel posted the same idea :) Love it. And love Paizo. Criticizing to make it better. I hope the people at the company who read it get that it’s meant well. <3.

For me international shipping rates are getting close to the price of the pdf which is the larger issue. Its not over yet but when it costs more to ship than the pdf costs and the difference for Paizo advantage discount I will need to think about the value of the sub.

I love Paizo and appreciate shipping rates aren't in their control. I also appreciate they are a small company so a dispersed or offshore shipping/warehousing may also not make sense or carry too much risk.

Its just an unfortunate situation.

Rysky wrote:

You can buy the PDFs just by themselves.

Not sure how sticking a code for the pdf in the book would help those with subscriptions over the current method.

I could just buy the book off the shelf at Amazon or the local game shop in Germany without paying any shipping and get a free pdf. Only reason for the sub so far were the pdfs but the value kinda drops close to zero for international customers. I do want the physical book for reading and I love the production value of those special editions. But ordering in the US is getting really expensive. Also putting a higher price tag (+5 or 10 USD) on a special edition with a pdf code would be a nice solution to the problem.

How are you getting a free pdf through Amazon or your FLGS?

Edit: you’re saying to get a free PDF just by buying the book with a hypothetical and not with a sub? Not gonna happen, the free PDF is the perk of getting a sub.

But codes in the boom would be a great start. It would also be beneficial to the local game shops to be able to have a product that includes the PDF. I also suggested to Paizo that they ship subscriptions in Europe directly to local game shops for pickup.

And when someone steals the code?

Or buys a book and then returns it/sells it back? One use books aren’t a good design.

As much as I’d love a PDF only subscription I’m pretty sure that would cause Brick and Mortar stores to revolt against Paizo products.

Yeah, it's a bit shame shipping is so expensive, sub isn't really super feasable for me unfortunately. I would definitely sub instantly if they had EU shipping, but c'est la vie.

The solution I've settled with for now is buying the PDF for Adventure Paths/Adventures since converting them in Foundry is so easy with the module and occasionally checking my LGS if they have the rulebooks and if they do I buy it otherwise I wait and just check Nethys.

If it's a Lost Omens book I really want I just go to Amazon since it is the most reliable vendor for me.

Its just an unfortunate situation.

Absolutely. It‘s not the end of the world. I think what Paizo should be aware though is that their subs are effectively „region locked“ for practical considerations. And „just go and buy the pdf“ is exactly that: A subscription perk that is invalidated by high shipping rates. For anything other than the Pathfinder Society scenarios, this point has already been reached. I can get the physical AP from Bookdepository for around $20, free shipping included. With the PDF another $15, which just under getting the sub from Paizo, which comes in at $36 per issue.

They’re fully aware of their products being “region locked” as it were, they’re also aware that the majority of their customers are in the US.

Lordlorien wrote:

Rysky wrote:

You can buy the PDFs just by themselves.

Not sure how sticking a code for the pdf in the book would help those with subscriptions over the current method.

I could just buy the book off the shelf at Amazon or the local game shop in Germany without paying any shipping and get a free pdf. Only reason for the sub so far were the pdfs but the value kinda drops close to zero for international customers. I do want the physical book for reading and I love the production value of those special editions. But ordering in the US is getting really expensive. Also putting a higher price tag (+5 or 10 USD) on a special edition with a pdf code would be a nice solution to the problem.

How are you getting a free pdf through Amazon or your FLGS?

Edit: you’re saying to get a free PDF just by buying the book with a hypothetical and not with a sub? Not gonna happen, the free PDF is the perk of getting a sub.

I think they are saying the difference in shipping is more than the cost of the PDF and the PDF would be 'free' in comparison to paying the shipping fees if they bought it from Amazon locally and then bought the PDF from Paizo but people look forward to the times when they get the PDF prior to release.

I could be wrong but that's what I got from it. Which is true in many cases considering Rule Book PDF's are often under 20 bucks and the AP PDF's definitely are.

I love being able to subscribe. I think that tensions are high in the world right now as international business has become more complex in the last couple of years.

Not having to think about making sure I have the next issues or rule book since I dove into 2e has been an epic experience. The free PDF's are a boon too. I use those more than the books now as everything is going digital.

My group is playing 100% digitally, so physical books are nice and all, but the pdfs are what I want and use. Shipping costs for Europe are just one of the factors for me.

I seriously wouldn't mind paying substantially more that the pdf price just to have a digital-only subscription that gives me early access. Considering the quality Paizo are putting out so far, I wouldn't even mind paying the full physical copy price.

Probably not going to happen anytime soon (if ever), but that's my 2 cents.

Everybody talking about shipping or other whatnot... Why no mentions of how absolutely glorious the special edition of Secrets of Magic looks?!?

I love physical books but also love PDF's as well.

With that said, a PDF only subscription would be awesome!

I love physical books but also love PDF's as well.

With that said, a PDF only subscription would be awesome!

Subscriptions help predict and maintain numbers for physical production runs. Paizo wouldn't get much out of doing a PDF-only subscription line.

Krugus wrote:

I love physical books but also love PDF's as well.

With that said, a PDF only subscription would be awesome!

Subscriptions help predict and maintain numbers for physical production runs. Paizo wouldn't get much out of doing a PDF-only subscription line.

IIRC it would also impact the amount of traffic they get on their site, which means fewer eyeballs on things like sales and whatnot that they probably make revenue from as well. Physical print does nothing for me, so I asked a customer rep about PDF-only subs a forever and a half ago, and I recall them explaining lots of good reasons why they didn't do PDF-only subs having to do with site traffic. Well I recall that the reasons were good, at least, not at all what they were now.

Here is a post from Vic Wertz discussing the topic of digital only subscriptions.

Makes sense to me.

Unfortunately for European subscribers, all subscription products are shipped from the U.S, and with the new shipping provider, shipping costs have gone from high to insane. One adventure path volume? Before $5.65, now $10.36. Lost Omens line is around $30 each, box products up to $50 for one box. I am not saying you are overcharging, I am sure it costs that much for you, too. But, competitors have European warehouses and manage to ship for 2-5x lower shipping rates. Sure, I can buy Paizo products elsewhere, but the PDF is an important aspect of getting a sub in the first place. I really wish you’d upgrade your logistics to cater more for non-American subscribers.

You should try shipping to Australia. It is hideously expensive like + AU$50 per order for some companies like Paizo and a few other small venders. Its not quick either. I did it for the core books, but it was just not sensible to continue. I'm pretty much forced into PDFs if I want to support the content.

Yet many companies don't have this problem. I can get cheap to free shipping on other items. Yeah I know, local warehouses and scale.....

Shipping costs, while not being Paizo's fault, can be absolutely awful.
I live about 2-2 1/2 hours north of Paizo's warehouse, which puts me just across the Canadian border from them.
A single AP book is just over $10 to ship.
The PF2 core rulebook is $48.60 as the cheapest option.
The other hardcovers are $43.30.

The shipping cost is 100% the reason why I'm not a subscriber. It would cost me less in gas to drive down to Paizo and back and pick the books up myself.

I don't see what Paizo could possibly do to reduce shipping costs - shipping costs are like this for most similar products when ordering from companies that don't have warehouses outside of the US - some companies do offer things like free shipping, but I suspect that is a thing that requires an economy of scale and warehouses in multiple countries - I am sure that if Paizo could afford to reduce the shipping costs (without compromising in other areas important to the consumer) they would.

I live in Western Australia, and in most cases shipping costs are $50+ for most of the things I order from game companies (games workshop being the exception, as I always spend over $42 to get the free shipping they offer). This is why I generally wait longer to order things, saving money so I can order more of the things I want in one go.

I guess maybe Paizo could offer the option to hold onto your subscription items and mail them every other month or something in a combined delivery? But I imagine a lot of people wouldn't go with that because they want their books now.

It's always cool to see that post by Vic. But...it's now ten years old, and the world has changed. Everything gets more digital by the day. And I'd argue that process was accelerated this past year with most folks the world over stuck in quarantine.

Would a PDF-subscription service where the PDFs are priced at higher prices than the physical subscription service be such a bad thing? I would think the majority of people who take advantage of this would be International customers, and they'd do this to eliminate the now insane shipping costs and for the early access. But those ridiculous shipping costs are what is currently keeping potential international subscribers at bay, right? So sure, some International folks would just wait for release day and buy the PDF as normal, and for a cheaper price. But certainly the chance for early access would draw entice enough folks to subscribe.

Meanwhile, I would think most US customers would stay away from such a deal, as it would be foolish to pay significantly more for a PDF, and early access, when you could get both a physical copy and the PDF for much cheaper.

If you're international clientele grows enough, then it becomes viable to look into some sort of international base of distribution. That would significantly lower the cost of shipping to most places, which would increase the number of physical book subscriptions. Alternatively, perhaps the international customer base does not grow enough this way to implement a new distribution center for physical book subscriptions. But you're still making decent profit on those higher cost PDF subscriptions that you'd have.

Maybe I'm under thinking things here.

Regardless, I can't help but think Paizo is shooting themselves in the foot by failing to find a way to make subscriptions affordable for their potential overseas customers. As others have stated, smaller companies have been able to find international solutions for their printed products.

Would a PDF-subscription service where the PDFs are priced at higher prices than the physical subscription service be such a bad thing?

Yes, no one would go for that. They'd simply wait for street date and buy it then.

There is no credible instances of a seller where PDFs cost more than the physical version, as for an "early bird" special, those cost even less as an incentive (as seen on KS), not more.

I would think the majority of people who take advantage of this would be International customers,

Intentionally gouging the prices beyond what exchange rates and taxes demand for non-US customers would be unethical.

I had broached the topic before of keeping the subscriptions as is for myself, but rather than shipping the physical books they just donate them. The response I received was that others had asked about this before but for the time being they didn't have something set up to easily allow this to function in a non-headache inducing way so it would be better for me to donate them after I had received them.

I'll mirror that although I want to support Paizo to the best of my ability, the costs are getting to be prohibitevly high. I also believe that they probably could reduce those costs, but it is uneconomical to do so while so many people put up with them.

I like having the books but when shipping is the cost of buying a whole new other game (board, rpg, video whatever) it's just not viable to the average consumer.

Yes, no one would go for that.

I probably would but I'm also very bad with money and am starving for more content.

I'm dying. I need Mwangi and Ruby Phoenix and Secrets of Magic and guns and gears.

Rysky wrote:

Yes, no one would go for that.

I probably would but I'm also very bad with money and am starving for more content.

I'm dying. I need Mwangi and Ruby Phoenix and Secrets of Magic and guns and gears.

... that option wouldn't get you more content or get it to you faster though (most likely), hence why no one would take it.

This definitely feels like one of those situations where the only *real* way to actually know if a model like this would work is to... just try it. Before then all you can do - at least, as a consumer - is speculate. Paizo almost definitely has enough data to come to a conclusion on the matter.

It would be nice if someone could make another official statement - even if it's just "We currently still don't have plans for similar reasons X, Y, and Z as nine years ago."

Like, Vic's statement is reasonable and nice to have, but it *is* nine years old and I'm sure more than a few people won't be satisfied with a nine-year old answer. Things do change, after all.

We have no announcements to make regarding a PDF-only subscription or international warehouse.

We have announced that Starfinder Adventure Path Subscribers are eligible to receive a complimentary PDF of Starfinder Adventure: Junker's Delight when they preorder.

We have announced the addition of tabletop game industry veteran Mike Webb to our management team as Vice President of Sales and E-Commerce, effective July 19th, 2021.

Squiggit wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Yes, no one would go for that.

I probably would but I'm also very bad with money and am starving for more content.

I'm dying. I need Mwangi and Ruby Phoenix and Secrets of Magic and guns and gears.

... that option wouldn't get you more content or get it to you faster though (most likely), hence why no one would take it.

Yeah but there has to be someone at Paizo I can pay to get Secrets of Magic.

Rysky wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Yes, no one would go for that.

I probably would but I'm also very bad with money and am starving for more content.

I'm dying. I need Mwangi and Ruby Phoenix and Secrets of Magic and guns and gears.

... that option wouldn't get you more content or get it to you faster though (most likely), hence why no one would take it.

Yeah but there has to be someone at Paizo I can pay to get Secrets of Magic.

Yup, in fact our entire web and sales team are standing by to take your money for it, whether that means you preorder or subscribe here, reserve a copy from your friendly local game store or brick & mortar bookstore of choice, or preorder it on Amazon.com. See? Easy peasy!

Squiggit wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Yes, no one would go for that.

I probably would but I'm also very bad with money and am starving for more content.

I'm dying. I need Mwangi and Ruby Phoenix and Secrets of Magic and guns and gears.

... that option wouldn't get you more content or get it to you faster though (most likely), hence why no one would take it.

Yeah but there has to be someone at Paizo I can pay to get Secrets of Magic.

Yup, in fact our entire web and sales team are standing by to take your money for it, whether that means you preorder or subscribe here, reserve a copy from your friendly local game store or brick & mortar bookstore of choice, or preorder it on Amazon.com. See? Easy peasy!

Bribing the entire web and sales team seems like it might get pricy

The shipping costs from Paizo can get really high. If I (peruvian) were to subscribe for a single book, it would be actually cheaper to buy just the PDF and then the book seperately from Amazon.

Right now, I have to let three 3 books stack, between Lost Omens and Rulebooks lines, in order to subscribe and have affordable shipping, then cancel the subription and wait three book to stack again.

Humbly,
Yawar

Yeah, it also feels that way for me. Shipping fees have become so high that it's often far more interesting to buy the pdf and the book separately.

And what was true about a pdf only subscription 9 years ago might not be true nowadays. The evolutions that happened these one and a half last years towards more virtual tables, more long-distance play and less in-person play, especially in Europe where more restrictions apply (like curfews and forbidden gatherings), shaped a world in which more people would like to subscribe to pdfs to get the books.

9 years ago, pdfs were somewhat more of a bonus for PFS players who didn't have to bring 20 pounds of books due to picking options in multiple supplements. Now it makes things easier for a lot of people who use VTTs on a weekly basis.

Plus, I really do think some of us (people in non-English speaking countries) would like to subscribe to pdfs to have the newest game elements in the original language and having paizo earn money for it a bit sooner, while buying the books for their collections in their own language, making it easier to play at a table with new players who do not always have enough skill in speaking other languages.

We have no announcements to make regarding a PDF-only subscription or international warehouse.

We have announced that Starfinder Adventure Path Subscribers are eligible to receive a complimentary PDF of Starfinder Adventure: Junker's Delight when they preorder.

We have announced the addition of tabletop game industry veteran Mike Webb to our management team as Vice President of Sales and E-Commerce, effective July 19th, 2021.

Hey Mike! Got a new E-commerce idea to pitch you…

Aaron Shanks wrote:

We have no announcements to make regarding a PDF-only subscription or international warehouse.

We have announced that Starfinder Adventure Path Subscribers are eligible to receive a complimentary PDF of Starfinder Adventure: Junker's Delight when they preorder.

We have announced the addition of tabletop game industry veteran Mike Webb to our management team as Vice President of Sales and E-Commerce, effective July 19th, 2021.

Hey Mike! Got a new E-commerce idea to pitch you…

I want you all to know that we are listening and you have not brought up issues that are new to us. If there were clear win/win/win (customer/Paizo/retailer) changes, we would pursue them. As Mark said, we try make our products available in an abundance of ways so that consumers can pick the method that is right for them. We continue to seek ways to add value to our subscriptions and we look forward to Mike's experience and fresh perspective.

I'll continue to showcase the upcoming products in our subscriptions. While many of you have been active participants in our games and on our forums for years or decades, and know the ins and outs of subs, we have many new customers who we need to inform.

Adventures Ahead!