Save the Date!

There's really no reason to be clever with "we know the classes, but we won't tell you what they are, but we will leave little crumbs and hints here and there for you to find out" since that's way more work for Paizo than "we're gonna announce the classes on [date]" and they regularly are working on things without telling us what they are (like work on the AP after "Strength of Thousands" has probably been done already.)

Like they didn't do the "solve our clever puzzle" thing for the previous two batches of new class playtests, so why start now?

Sure, but we're all stuck inside because of a pandemic, and its fun to speculate. No one is taking our string and tinfoil seriously. It'll be ok.

Apparently, in an episode of Arcane Mark, Mark said that the art represented the developers with a "we've got plans" feel. It has nothing to do with the classes being play tested. Or so I have heard.

He did indeed say that, somewhat laughing at our eagerness to read into literally everything (please see my own example of assuming there is an inventor class when literally no one has promised a thing). He is, however, a very smart individual who seems to delight in games and reveals.

I would not be mad if it turned out to be a clue after all, or if it wasn't a clue but we accidentally guessed right anyways.

Unicore wrote:

Apparently, in an episode of Arcane Mark, Mark said that the art represented the developers with a "we've got plans" feel. It has nothing to do with the classes being play tested. Or so I have heard.

He did indeed say that, somewhat laughing at our eagerness to read into literally everything (please see my own example of assuming there is an inventor class when literally no one has promised a thing). He is, however, a very smart individual who seems to delight in games and reveals.

I would not be mad if it turned out to be a clue after all, or if it wasn't a clue but we accidentally guessed right anyways.

They can't possibly be surprised that the internet is doing exactly what the internet does for every single teaser that has ever been released. If I was releasing something, I'd be absolutely giddy reading the speculation. This would be the best part of releasing something, because (basically) no one can be mad and yell at you yet :P . And after all, whatever we decide to see in the Rorshach blotches left behind in our bed of fever dreams is just free market research.

I mean, the imagery is very clear... from her expression, her clothes, her posture, and the way she's interacting with the miniaturized environment below in an almost toying way...

She's clearly sekmin in disguise. So we can expect playable serpentfolk ancestry as well as modified Psychic and Shifter classes. New book coming in December called Lossst Omensss.

I'm very positive about this.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Apparently, in an episode of Arcane Mark, Mark said that the art represented the developers with a "we've got plans" feel. It has nothing to do with the classes being play tested. Or so I have heard.

He did indeed say that, somewhat laughing at our eagerness to read into literally everything (please see my own example of assuming there is an inventor class when literally no one has promised a thing). He is, however, a very smart individual who seems to delight in games and reveals.

I would not be mad if it turned out to be a clue after all, or if it wasn't a clue but we accidentally guessed right anyways.

They can't possibly be surprised that the internet is doing exactly what the internet does for every single teaser that has ever been released. If I was releasing something, I'd be absolutely giddy reading the speculation. This would be the best part of releasing something, because (basically) no one can be mad and yell at you yet :P . And after all, whatever we decide to see in the Rorshach blotches left behind in our bed of fever dreams is just free market research.

At the very least, all of this speculation and hype has given a good bit of insight for any developers checking this thread, and might lead to some future Warlord or Inventor class to be considered in the future.

There's really no reason to be clever with "we know the classes, but we won't tell you what they are, but we will leave little crumbs and hints here and there for you to find out" since that's way more work for Paizo than "we're gonna announce the classes on [date]" and they regularly are working on things without telling us what they are (like work on the AP after "Strength of Thousands" has probably been done already.)

Like they didn't do the "solve our clever puzzle" thing for the previous two batches of new class playtests, so why start now?

Stuff like that is a great way to artificially generate extra hype. Of course, it can also backfire tremendously since the extra hype is coupled with extra expectations so it's usually the bad marketing teams that get in on that sort of thing...

They can't possibly be surprised that the internet is doing exactly what the internet does for every single teaser that has ever been released. If I was releasing something, I'd be absolutely giddy reading the speculation. This would be the best part of releasing something, because (basically) no one can be mad and yell at you yet :P . And after all, whatever we decide to see in the Rorshach blotches left behind in our bed of fever dreams is just free market research.

Surprised, probably not. Utterly amused to watch it unfold, oh definitely.

Stuff like that is a great way to artificially generate extra hype. Of course, it can also backfire tremendously since the extra hype is coupled with extra expectations so it's usually the bad marketing teams that get in on that sort of thing...

Is "hey, playtest the new stuff for that game you like" something that really benefits from "building hype"? It seems like if you're running into "we'd like more survey responses" during the playtest, that's something you can address during the playtest.

Arachnofiend wrote:

Stuff like that is a great way to artificially generate extra hype. Of course, it can also backfire tremendously since the extra hype is coupled with extra expectations so it's usually the bad marketing teams that get in on that sort of thing...

Is "hey, playtest the new stuff for that game you like" something that really benefits from "building hype"? It seems like if you're running into "we'd like more survey responses" during the playtest, that's something you can address during the playtest.

I agree, which is why I said it's usually the bad marketing teams that do that.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Stuff like that is a great way to artificially generate extra hype. Of course, it can also backfire tremendously since the extra hype is coupled with extra expectations so it's usually the bad marketing teams that get in on that sort of thing...

Is "hey, playtest the new stuff for that game you like" something that really benefits from "building hype"? It seems like if you're running into "we'd like more survey responses" during the playtest, that's something you can address during the playtest.

I agree, which is why I said it's usually the bad marketing teams that do that.

I disagree. While it can be detrimental for costumer satisfaction and trust in regards to "overselling" final products, this is more of a free event in which they need to maximize engagement.

This just a game of wild mass guessing. There is world of difference between this and "subscribe to the Rulebook line to receive our new book early and check if your guess was right".

Humbly,
Yawar

There is some official art this year from the hardcovers and other sources depicting firearms. It's only a matter of time.

Obviously. Firearms have been a part of Golarion (complete with the iconic Gunslinger) for quite some time now. They will inevitably appear in PF2 in due time.

The real question is how ?

I feel like many folks in this thread are ignoring that the Marshal already exists as an archetype.

I feel like many folks in this thread are ignoring that the Marshal already exists as an archetype.

And we also have both Monk and Martial Artist. I'd like a class that makes being a charisma-based nonmagical support my character's main thing, rather than a side thing to my main class (I still love the Marshal archetype though).

There is some official art this year from the hardcovers and other sources depicting firearms. It's only a matter of time.

Nothing in PF2 really changed the setting (except for canonizing the results of certain plotlines/adventures from PF1), and in particular things that existed in Golarion 5 years prior for the most part still exist in Golarion.

Since the setting had firearms, psychic casters, kitsune, etc. we still have firearms, psychic casters, kitsune etc. It's just that there aren't yet rules for those things yet.

It's much like how Irrisen did not stop being ruled by witches between "the release of the PF2 CRB" and "the release of the APG" (which contained the witch class.)

Still think the picture is a cheeky clue!

I feel like many folks in this thread are ignoring that the Marshal already exists as an archetype.

Also the Bellflower Tiller.

But I would love to see a class expanding on these concepts even further. Especially if it could change its focus during daily preparations (what I call a prepared Martial).

No reason only casters (prepared) can take great advantage of getting relevant information on enemies, traps, ... before getting into the fray.

If nothing else, I think this has demonstrated that there is a good appetite for a Warlord/Tactician class. I do like the Marshal archetype but if a full class could allow character concepts with a bigger emphasis on those kinds of abilities, I would be very interested in playing as one.

Marshal could also end up a bit like the Herbalist to the Alchemist, in that it focuses on one very specific bit of what the full class actually does.

There has been a place for a STR>INT class that isn't just a gish who is an INT-caster in Pathfinder for a while.

There has been a place for a STR>INT class that isn't just a gish who is an INT-caster in Pathfinder for a while.

That's a good point. I was thinking of a STR-CHA sort of class, but unless players are going for a specific archetype, CHA is the go-to for martials' mental stats, as well as directly mechanically incentivized for champions.

There has been a place for a STR>INT class that isn't just a gish who is an INT-caster in Pathfinder for a while.

That would be a great design space, and make it mechanically distinct from the Marshal archetype.

I mentioned...somewhere that I wanted to see different skills used to lead, like Arcane or Society. This would be the way to go for that.

Like the previous playtests, I think this one is related to a single new book release coming down the pipe. We know Paizo want their books to have a common theme. If it isn't an equipment-based book with gunslinger, inventor, or tactician classes, then I think think it might be an environmental or wilderness book with the Shaman and Shifter classes, if not something else completely new.

It is almost certainly the book where Michael Sayre is the lead designer.

He loves unarmed combatants and anime fights and did unorthodox martial classes for PF1 3pps. Also he loved Occultist IIRC.

He also mentioned that by the end of 2021, PF2 would be even richer in character concepts than PF1. Which to me means Gunslinger very soon.

It is almost certainly the book where Michael Sayre is the lead designer.

He loves unarmed combatants and anime fights and did unorthodox martial classes for PF1 3pps. Also he loved Occultist IIRC.

He also mentioned that by the end of 2021, PF2 would be even richer in character concepts than PF1. Which to me means Gunslinger very soon.

For the sake of completeness, I will note that I also did unorthodox martial classes (and ancestries) for PF2 3pps as well.

Battle Lord
Luchador

The Raven Black wrote:

It is almost certainly the book where Michael Sayre is the lead designer.

He loves unarmed combatants and anime fights and did unorthodox martial classes for PF1 3pps. Also he loved Occultist IIRC.

He also mentioned that by the end of 2021, PF2 would be even richer in character concepts than PF1. Which to me means Gunslinger very soon.

For the sake of completeness, I will note that I also did unorthodox martial classes (and ancestries) for PF2 3pps as well.

Battle Lord
Luchador

I wonder how different the process is between the creation of those 3pp classes, and the classes you guys have been working toward for official material is.

Michael Sayre wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

It is almost certainly the book where Michael Sayre is the lead designer.

He loves unarmed combatants and anime fights and did unorthodox martial classes for PF1 3pps. Also he loved Occultist IIRC.

He also mentioned that by the end of 2021, PF2 would be even richer in character concepts than PF1. Which to me means Gunslinger very soon.

For the sake of completeness, I will note that I also did unorthodox martial classes (and ancestries) for PF2 3pps as well.

Battle Lord
Luchador

I wonder how different the process is between the creation of those 3pp classes, and the classes you guys have been working toward for official material is.

So, there's a couple layers to it. For the Luchador and Battle Lord, I conceived of both of those classes on my own and not as part of a collaborative process. That's not always true of 3pp classes (Christen and I collaborated a lot on the classes I wrote for his City of 7 Seraphs campaign setting), but it's true of those. At Paizo, we start with a meeting of the creative team where we figure out what books and classes make the most sense for a given year; those brainstorms usually include conversations about what PF1 classes people are still waiting to see pulled forward from PF1, and whether there's a space in the game that should be filled by a new class we've never had before.

Once that decision is made, the design team collabs on how best to execute the classes and book we've decided on; in the particular instance of this as-yet-unrevealed book we'll be playtesting, we actually ran with pretty much my first idea for the class I wrote. Mark started to run with my first idea for his class but discovered some interesting dynamics during his early groundwork that led to him carving a portion of that idea off and expanding another piece of the idea into the core of the class. We both wrote up those classes, then I handed my class to Mark, he handed his class to Logan, and the classes made their way through the design team one by one, with each person tweaking, correcting, or adjusting as they saw appropriate. For a 3pp class like the luchador, what I'd be doing about this point is handing copies to my players for our first round of playtesting.

Now that we've all gone in and added our contributions to the classes, they make the rounds through the editing and art teams for layout, bounce back to me for copyfit checks, and then on for packaging and upload to the site. For a 3pp release, I'd be doing my second round of playtesting (usually internal but sometimes to a public audience, depending on the project), which would be the last step before sending it on to the publisher for layout and print.

These classes will go through the next month's public playtest where we'll collect data from the forums and surveys, and then Mark and I will go over all that data and present our findings and planned next steps to the team. We'll probably cover that in one or two weekly meetings as Mark and I finish the classes and we develop the freelancer turnovers, then the team will do their last passes over the completed classes. After that, each piece of the new book will go to Edit as the final dev is completed. They'll do their passes, then it will go on to art for layout, after which there's usually another pass by the editing team, then the stakeholders (design lead, lead designers, publisher, creative director, etc.) will each do their passes.

- Mark started to run with my first idea for his class but discovered some interesting dynamics during his early groundwork that led to him carving a portion of that idea off and expanding another piece of the idea into the core of the class. -

I'm a little confused by this sentence, I would love to hear more about it when the classes are revealed! I would love more behind the scenes in general when it comes to picking and designing classes. So thank you.

- Mark started to run with my first idea for his class but discovered some interesting dynamics during his early groundwork that led to him carving a portion of that idea off and expanding another piece of the idea into the core of the class. -

I'm a little confused by this sentence, I would love to hear more about it when the classes are revealed! I would love more behind the scenes in general when it comes to picking and designing classes. So thank you.

Lol, apologies, I had to be intentionally vague there. Remind me when the playtest launches and I'll tell you!

Okay but how many letters long are the names of the playtest classes.

Okay but how many letters long are the names of the playtest classes.

Do they rhyme with ramen, swifter, or door ward?

On a potentially non-spoiler line, how complex are they to play? I am running some green players and some vets, wondering if the newbies will have trouble adjusting if they’re relatively new to the game or if they’d catch on quick.

ramen

Mm.. Chef class, uses Alchemist crafting rules but makes snacks instead of bombs and mutagens and elixirs.

Comes published with a handwraps-equivalent item that allows you to confer rune bonuses to improvised weapons so you can smack people around with your mithral waffle iron or darkwood rolling pin.

Midnightoker wrote:

ramen

Mm.. Chef class, uses Alchemist crafting rules but makes snacks instead of bombs and mutagens and elixirs.

Comes published with a handwraps-equivalent item that allows you to confer rune bonuses to improvised weapons so you can smack people around with your mithral waffle iron or darkwood rolling pin.

Every now and then I remember that time I turned a blacksmith into a sandwich artist and it makes me smile.

Squiggit wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

ramen

Mm.. Chef class, uses Alchemist crafting rules but makes snacks instead of bombs and mutagens and elixirs.

Comes published with a handwraps-equivalent item that allows you to confer rune bonuses to improvised weapons so you can smack people around with your mithral waffle iron or darkwood rolling pin.

Every now and then I remember that time I turned a blacksmith into a sandwich artist and it makes me smile.

reads “iron chef”

This is the kind of quality content I need in my life.

What I want from a "Warlord" archetype is to bring back some of the order stuff from the Cavalier. They were really interesting class features and having challenge as an additional feature would be interesting. I don't just want it to be "Marshal: The Class".

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Michael Sayre wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

It is almost certainly the book where Michael Sayre is the lead designer.

He loves unarmed combatants and anime fights and did unorthodox martial classes for PF1 3pps. Also he loved Occultist IIRC.

He also mentioned that by the end of 2021, PF2 would be even richer in character concepts than PF1. Which to me means Gunslinger very soon.

For the sake of completeness, I will note that I also did unorthodox martial classes (and ancestries) for PF2 3pps as well.

Battle Lord
Luchador

I wonder how different the process is between the creation of those 3pp classes, and the classes you guys have been working toward for official material is.

So, there's a couple layers to it. For the Luchador and Battle Lord, I conceived of both of those classes on my own and not as part of a collaborative process. That's not always true of 3pp classes (Christen and I collaborated a lot on the classes I wrote for his City of 7 Seraphs campaign setting), but it's true of those. At Paizo, we start with a meeting of the creative team where we figure out what books and classes make the most sense for a given year; those brainstorms usually include conversations about what PF1 classes people are still waiting to see pulled forward from PF1, and whether there's a space in the game that should be filled by a new class we've never had before.

Once that decision is made, the design team collabs on how best to execute the classes and book we've decided on; in the particular instance of this as-yet-unrevealed book we'll be playtesting, we actually ran with pretty much my first idea for the class I wrote. Mark started to run with my first idea for his class but discovered some interesting dynamics during his early...

Wow. A huge thank you for this awesome look at the creation process. I am amazed at how much of a collective work it is. In my area of expertise (strategy and transformation consulting), the same person would integrate the iterative feedbacks into a new version of the document, like workshopping for RPG Superstar back in the days, but they would not just give their work to another consultant to tweak, transform and update as they wish. Quite eye-opening.

I wonder if it is a tried and true creative method in the RPG industry (and maybe further) or if it is something unique to Paizo, and when this process was created.

Because I am now pondering the value it could bring to other professional fields, such as mine.

BTW, I knew about the PF2 3pp classes but did not mention them as they were updates to PF2 of the PF1 classes. I guess the updating process is easier than a creation from scratch, though it might be in fact the other way around.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Michael Sayre wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

It is almost certainly the book where Michael Sayre is the lead designer.

He loves unarmed combatants and anime fights and did unorthodox martial classes for PF1 3pps. Also he loved Occultist IIRC.

He also mentioned that by the end of 2021, PF2 would be even richer in character concepts than PF1. Which to me means Gunslinger very soon.

For the sake of completeness, I will note that I also did unorthodox martial classes (and ancestries) for PF2 3pps as well.

Battle Lord
Luchador

I wonder how different the process is between the creation of those 3pp classes, and the classes you guys have been working toward for official material is.

So, there's a couple layers to it. For the Luchador and Battle Lord, I conceived of both of those classes on my own and not as part of a collaborative process. That's not always true of 3pp classes (Christen and I collaborated a lot on the classes I wrote for his City of 7 Seraphs campaign setting), but it's true of those. At Paizo, we start with a meeting of the creative team where we figure out what books and classes make the most sense for a given year; those brainstorms usually include conversations about what PF1 classes people are still waiting to see pulled forward from PF1, and whether there's a space in the game that should be filled by a new class we've never had before.

Once that decision is made, the design team collabs on how best to execute the classes and book we've decided on; in the particular instance of this as-yet-unrevealed book we'll be playtesting, we actually ran with pretty much my first idea for the class I wrote. Mark started to run with my first idea for his class but discovered some interesting dynamics during his early...

That was incredibly insightful, thank you. Its a really thorough sounding pipeline.

BTW, I knew about the PF2 3pp classes but did not mention them as they were updates to PF2 of the PF1 classes. I guess the updating process is easier than a creation from scratch, though it might be in fact the other way around.

I think the main piece of work a conversion saves you is coming up with a name, lol. Mark's swashbuckler is a really great example of how a conversion can use the same name and theme but be executed very differently mechanically, and I think that's really the smart way to bring a class forward into the new edition. Rather than asking "How can I cram all the prior edition stuff into this edition", I think it's a stronger play to ask "What is the best way to execute this core idea in the current game?"

Because PF1 had a lot of design stuff that just isn't used in PF2 (like buckets of numeric boosters), it's generally easier (at least, IMO) to go back to the core concept of the class (leads people in battle, is a masked wrestler, buckles swashes, etc.) and then look for the best way to bring that into PF2, rather than trying to figure out how to squeeze the previous iteration's execution into a new system.

The Raven Black wrote:

BTW, I knew about the PF2 3pp classes but did not mention them as they were updates to PF2 of the PF1 classes. I guess the updating process is easier than a creation from scratch, though it might be in fact the other way around.

Rather than asking "How can I cram all the prior edition stuff into this edition", I think it's a stronger play to ask "What is the best way to execute this core idea in the current game?"

This has me very excited for the new classes play test. I won't say that I think PF2 has gotten every single thing right yet, but the willingness to try out ideas that feel like they could work better than how things have been handled before has pushed the whole industry forward in my opinion. I love a system that makes it so easy to lean into an idea and adapt fairly detailed mechanical systems around to make it have a unique feel in play.

I think it's a stronger play to ask "What is the best way to execute this core idea in the current game?"

This does make me hopeful that your PF2 take on Kineticists will finally get rid of Burn (or make it unnecessary to keep on combat math). The 1st edition seemed to have this weird overvaluing of CON as a main stat, when in fact it balances out by oft-forgotten stuff like having no linked skills (especially relevant in this edition since if Kinnies still get CON as their KAS they'll never get to enjoy the +7 ability bonus for any skill they invested to Legendary)...

I think that the Kineticist really does need to maintain the "this puts stress on your body" aspect of having otherwise unlimited access to magical power. That's a core part of why I love the class.

I'm also the sort of person who loves the PF2 oracle's price for power stuff too, though.

That's one thing that has me interested in how they'll do the Kineticist, because it feels like the fanbase for the class often has diametrically opposed views of what it should be.

People who want an elementalist vs. people who don't care about the elemental theme and just want at-will magic.

people who like the flavor of taxing one's body vs people who hate burn but tolerate it because they like everything else.

What's the core, defining feature of the class, then? Would it still work if it didn't tax the body? Would it still work if it could drop the elemental themeing and instead be, for instance, demonic or celestially or arcanely empowered?

At what point are you pursuing a genuinely interesting alternative way to express the concept and at what point does that go too far and you're just diluting the core conceit of the class?

Questions like that I think are really interesting.

Burn is the mechanic that makes the kineticist not just a warlock, though I recognize a lot of people just wanted a Pathfinder warlock. As someone who happily uses physical damage spells in SMT/Persona games I had zero issues with burn as a concept though I'm pretty sure I was in the minority.

I think burn is valuable simply because the class would need some texture to be fun to play, I don't think anything should be as monotonous as the 5e Warlock.

The Kineticist is the non-spellcaster centered on magical powers that focus on an element of the game with all its variety.

That element could be a lot of things IMO and not necessarily linked to the Elemental planes.

I'd like a kineticist to be more like a bender, with a bigger share of utility tricks in your element. I mean, I want the combat stuff. But I also want it to feel like a master of its element outside of simply making attacks. The PF1 version felt a bit too narrow in that.

Single action cantrip with feats that give cool metamagic option (like attack in a line, in an area, add conditions, etc, depending on your base element choice), feats for focus spells, and a few more feats for passive/always on thematic stuff is what I would hope for.

Also it would be great to see more elements from the get-go, not just the European 4(+1) of Fire/Air/Water/Earth(/Aether=Force?), but also Wood/Metal for the Asian 5, Cold/Lightning to round out the modern RPG element trio, and maybe Positive/Negative as a stand-in for "Light/Shadow" without stepping in Divine territory.

Plus making Force damage more readily available without timed resource costs would be my personal preferrence (though no hopes on this ever getting granted if past records of all D&D-esque games bar Eldeitch Blast have anything to say of).

There was a thread some years ago asking for ideas on new possible Kineticist elements. I realized that anything that has an impact on the game could be made a Kineticist element : speed, encumbrance, light and shadow, Hit points, AC, saves, types of damage, abilities, you call it.

Also it would be great to see more elements from the get-go, not just the European 4(+1) of Fire/Air/Water/Earth(/Aether=Force?), but also Wood/Metal for the Asian 5, Cold/Lightning to round out the modern RPG element trio, and maybe Positive/Negative as a stand-in for "Light/Shadow" without stepping in Divine territory.

Plus making Force damage more readily available without timed resource costs would be my personal preferrence (though no hopes on this ever getting granted if past records of all D&D-esque games bar Eldeitch Blast have anything to say of).

hm, a wood kineticist would be Hashirama Senju from Naruto, I approve.

I also wonder if maybe the way to go mechanically is to basically have multi-action feats that allow you to create different shapes, like balls, lines, walls, and so forth.