Iconic Evolutions: Advanced Player’s Guide

Can we get a PF2e Daji piece as an avatar for the forums?

HUZZAH!

I can hardly wait till the end of the month! These classes represent three of my favorite characters to play. Alexandria Andrpov my witch, Ernesto Vencini Caparina swashbuckler extraordinar, and Thadeaus Grimm classically trained investigator!

Will they continue into second edition? Will a new breed of heroes step forth? I can't wait to find out!

Wow.

This really makes the waiting much worse.

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

Wow.

This really makes the waiting much worse.

Less than a month now!

I wonder if Jirelle has managed to confront her banshee mother yet?

I love that Freya have a broken Desna religious symbol, with one wing each held by her and Daji (and another broken one on her neck).
I like that Quinns just looks like a very reliable older mentor or something. The cane looks great, and it's very visible it's a sword cane now. The detains on the looking glass are awesome. The stuff to take fingerprints at his belt. Ugh! Niiice!
The Jirelle is flashy as ever. :3 Her Rapier is veeeeery detailed.
That bring me one question though... Have the "goal" of making the art easier to translate into minis dropped? Or is there enough confidence that this rapier will look good as a mini?
In fact, the three of them looks much more detailed than the Core Iconics...

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

APG seems like it will have more familiar options in general, along with the Witch class specifically having some special familiar options.

These all look fantastic. I am so excited for the APG. :D

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

My guess is something like Advanced Familiar.

Feiya didn't get quite the wardrobe overhaul that the other female iconics did. Why is that?

Too busy with the fox upgrade.

Feiya didn't get quite the wardrobe overhaul that the other female iconics did. Why is that?

I don't think the problem was ever the female Iconics dressing sexy, it was it being overly prevalent and the disparity between them and the male iconics doing likewise in terms of numbers.

So...Feiya dresses like that because she feels like it. Seltiyel will probably do likewise when we get him back as well.

Really, the only Iconics who've really gotten an overhaul to be less skimpily dressed are Sajan and Seoni, so it's not a wildly common trend in PF2 Iconic art.

Nice!

Awesome artwork all round! (*^-^*)

I especially like that Daji looks more like a magical familiar now! :D
(Not that there was anything wrong with him being a seemingly ordinary fox familiar in PF1e...)

Also, does it seem that the basket(?) hilt of Jirelle's rapier is designed after a couatl?

:D

Carry on,

--C.

David knott 242 wrote:

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

APG seems like it will have more familiar options in general, along with the Witch class specifically having some special familiar options.

Getting something akin to the 1e Shaman? That sounds sweet!

Never noticed Feiya's nails were as long as they are on both hands. I like it. Really emphasis the more supernatural and darker tones to a Witches magic.

I'm wagering that Witch Familiars, basically acting as magical conduits between a Patron and their pactbound, will have a sort of evolving option to them; perhaps to emphasize their own magical connection to the Parton. Unlike the Familars of other Spellcasters, Witch Familars channel a Partons magic through themselves, to their master. So it seems reasonable that, with time and an increase in power provided by a Patron, that a Familiar may in fact learn to siphon some of those powers for themselves.

It is the only thing that really make sense to me as to why Daji is basically become a kyubi suddenly. Perhaps it is a sign that Desna isn't the only Deity that Feiya has drawn favor from? Who says a Witches Parton must be a single entity?

I love that Freya have a broken Desna religious symbol, with one wing each held by her and Daji (and another broken one on her neck).

That bring me one question though... Have the "goal" of making the art easier to translate into minis dropped? Or is there enough confidence that this rapier will look good as a mini?
In fact, the three of them looks much more detailed than the Core Iconics...

Really pleased to hear that you like the artwork.

The Desna symbols around Feiya's and Daji's necks are identical. But they aren't broken. They have two wings with a female face in the middle.

If there was a directive or goal to make art simpler so that it could be easier to make them into minis, then it was never mentioned to me.

These ones look great. As opposed to the new look of the core iconics most of which I dislike these ones seem to have mostly stay'd closer to there origonal 1e look and I admit it is possibly just me but feel more colourfull than the core bunch.

I'm seeing Quinn and now can't remove the mental imagery from my mind of 'As voiced by Morgan Freeman'.... :>

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

Well given you can have a familiar grow functional prehensile hands and wings during your morning preparations I would assume it does it by magic.

Never noticed Feiya's nails were as long as they are on both hands. I like it. Really emphasis the more supernatural and darker tones to a Witches magic.

I wonder whether those nails could be changeling claws, given that Changeling is now a heritage rather than an ancestry?

I love how these small details hint at the expanded options in this book.

The playtest witch had a feat that have you sharp nails, it was probably that.

Ly'ualdre wrote:

Never noticed Feiya's nails were as long as they are on both hands. I like it. Really emphasis the more supernatural and darker tones to a Witches magic.

I wonder whether those nails could be changeling claws, given that Changeling is now a heritage rather than an ancestry?

I love how these small details hint at the expanded options in this book.

I believe witches in pf1 had option for combat nails anyway regardless of ancestry.

Color me puzzled. Why a 9-tail instead of... just a fox? Why does every dial have to be turned up to 11 all the time?

Color me puzzled. Why a 9-tail instead of... just a fox? Why does every dial have to be turned up to 11 all the time?

1.) Because why not.

Color me puzzled. Why a 9-tail instead of... just a fox? Why does every dial have to be turned up to 11 all the time?

I think it is mainly because the Witch Familiar isn't JUST a normal animal familiar by definition, it's more like a planar/divine/primal/magical/special otherworldly version of some domestic animal that was wholesale created for the individual, specific Witch by some powerful and unknowable force which binds the creature to them as a font of power even more powerful than a Wizard Spellbook.

The Witch doesn't just go to the shelter and pick out a hedgehog, feed it some special snacks and burn candles in an outline of some occult symbol in order to imbue the little dude with magical power, it is by itself the primary source of the power that the Witch has, it's not just some tool for them or a resource like an Animal Companion, it's more like the Deity any given Champion or Cleric chooses and losing your bond to it should be catastrophic so in keeping with this, I think its perfectly fine to let them have a healthy dose of "strange/special" to go along with the additional power they possess.

David knott 242 wrote:

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

Well given you can have a familiar grow functional prehensile hands and wings during your morning preparations I would assume it does it by magic.

In fact, as long as having nine tails has no mechanical benefit, I don't think you have to do anything at all except say "my familiar is a fox with nine tails" when you are creating the character.

kaid wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

Well given you can have a familiar grow functional prehensile hands and wings during your morning preparations I would assume it does it by magic.

In fact, as long as having nine tails has no mechanical benefit, I don't think you have to do anything at all except say "my familiar is a fox with nine tails" when you are creating the character.

Given how malleable familiars are I am not certain if its even a locked in at character creation thing or today I have a raven tomorrow I have a cat. These are more spirit/magical entities more than physical beings.

kaid wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

Well given you can have a familiar grow functional prehensile hands and wings during your morning preparations I would assume it does it by magic.

In fact, as long as having nine tails has no mechanical benefit, I don't think you have to do anything at all except say "my familiar is a fox with nine tails" when you are creating the character.

I would 100% let someone play with a nine-tailed fox as their familiar, without assigning any familiar power in particular to do so.

Color me puzzled. Why a 9-tail instead of... just a fox? Why does every dial have to be turned up to 11 all the time?

Nine-tailed foxes represent a connection with the supernatural in many Asian cultures, similar to black cats in European legends.

The nine-tailed familiar fits her. She's of Tian-Min ethnicity and there is no direct and inseparable connection between nine-tailed kitsune and daikitsu in pathfinder canon. Heck, Hei-Feng has a nine-tailed fox herald.

MaxAstro wrote:

kaid wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

How does a fox familiar pull off that multiple tails thing? Hmmm.....

Well given you can have a familiar grow functional prehensile hands and wings during your morning preparations I would assume it does it by magic.

In fact, as long as having nine tails has no mechanical benefit, I don't think you have to do anything at all except say "my familiar is a fox with nine tails" when you are creating the character.

I would 100% let someone play with a nine-tailed fox as their familiar, without assigning any familiar power in particular to do so.

Here here. This is how the nine-tailed foxes were done in L5R. I think it cost 1 spirit point? Literally 1/9th of a feat? Wouldn't even cost that in a system like PF2 and a high fantasy setting like Lost Omens.

Color me puzzled. Why a 9-tail instead of... just a fox? Why does every dial have to be turned up to 11 all the time?

"Up to 11" is for stuff beyond the maximum, so I think this is just the dial at 10. And since Witches are supposed to have more powerful familiars, it seems like an appropriate place for the dial to be at a 10.

Poor Quinn looks so much older now, and is that a paunch?

I miss Quinn's light-cage-on-a-stick.

First edition Kitsune have a feat that gives them an extra spell like ability and an extra tail. The familiar's extra tails could be a manifestation of extra abilities Feiya has been granted.

Poor Quinn looks so much older now, and is that a paunch?

There is full page art of Quinn in Agents of Edgewatch volume 1 that I can't wait for you to all see!

Ravingdork wrote:

Poor Quinn looks so much older now, and is that a paunch?

There is full page art of Quinn in Agents of Edgewatch volume 1 that I can't wait for you to all see!

(ɔ◔‿◔)ɔ ♥

I miss Quinn's light-cage-on-a-stick.

First edition Kitsune have a feat that gives them an extra spell like ability and an extra tail. The familiar's extra tails could be a manifestation of extra abilities Feiya has been granted.

Daji clearly has more power than Feiya can handle until she levels up. It's not just a meme when I say that Daji is the real character. (Ok, it kind of is.)

Clearly the dial has been turned to nine on Daji.... come on, no-one? No-one? :P

Clearly the dial has been turned to nine on Daji.... come on, no-one? No-one? :P

So if he gets 2 more tails, he'll have dialed up to 11.

I really enjoyed the iconic video breakdowns with Wayne Reynolds. Hearing about the style choices and seeing some of the extra sketches was nice. Hopefully this can be done for future releases.

Elfteiroh wrote:

I love that Freya have a broken Desna religious symbol, with one wing each held by her and Daji (and another broken one on her neck).

That bring me one question though... Have the "goal" of making the art easier to translate into minis dropped? Or is there enough confidence that this rapier will look good as a mini?
In fact, the three of them looks much more detailed than the Core Iconics...

Really pleased to hear that you like the artwork.

The Desna symbols around Feiya's and Daji's necks are identical. But they aren't broken. They have two wings with a female face in the middle.

If there was a directive or goal to make art simpler so that it could be easier to make them into minis, then it was never mentioned to me.

oooh! Nice for the symbol! I have bad eyes and hadn’t zoomed enough to see the face and the fact it was two wings! (Now I wonder why nobody else corrected me...)

For the mini thing, I was referencing the talk with Erik Mona last year around the release of the game, were Erik said he wanted the art to be “easy” to make the best minis, and that it was why Merisiel’s rapier was now a little bit simpler around the guard. But yeah, that pretty much answer my question, if this time there was no back and forth about that. :O
(Also, I used “easier to translate into minis” because I knew “simpler” was not the right word, but I agree I fell into the trap of using “more detailed” as a shorthand later...)

In keeping with ALL of the 2E redesigns/re-ups so far, I must say, these all have more personality than their 1E counterparts.

Nicely done, Wayne!

I wish Jirelle's boots were tight to the leg. I think it would look better. Something about them being that loose just seems off.

I wish Jirelle's boots were tight to the leg. I think it would look better. Something about them being that loose just seems off.

I wish she was holding her sword correctly. Index finger looped over the guard.

Idward Evanhand wrote:

I wish Jirelle's boots were tight to the leg. I think it would look better. Something about them being that loose just seems off.

I wish she was holding her sword correctly. Index finger looped over the guard.

Oh?

Donald wrote:

Idward Evanhand wrote:

I wish Jirelle's boots were tight to the leg. I think it would look better. Something about them being that loose just seems off.

I wish she was holding her sword correctly. Index finger looped over the guard.

Oh?

You get more control over the blade's movements that way, extending the effective length of the lever you're making from your wrist up to the knuckles of your hand and giving you the ability to pull the blade to one side by tightening the finger, sort of like pulling a trigger on a gun. You wouldn't normally do it with most swords for reasons of weight (it does weaken grip strength a little and the blade is too heavy to easily move with just one finger) and also you risk getting your finger cut off if the opponent's blade slides down yours and doesn't stop until it gets to the guard, but with rapiers that have basket hilts, it's quite common.

Curious to see if we'll get a means for the witch with the attack hair option to bolster that attack, akin to magical handwraps.

Curious to see if we'll get a means for the witch with the attack hair option to bolster that attack, akin to magical handwraps.

Magical handwraps already work for it.

In fact, as long as having nine tails has no mechanical benefit, I don't think you have to do anything at all except say "my familiar is a fox with nine tails" when you are creating the character.

While most GMs I know would allow that, the specific rules for creating familiars talk about animals only. So it'd be nice if we get more mechanics that give a nod to the idea of supernatural creatures as familiars.