Trinkets and Treasures

Monday, June 25, 2018

Wayfinder. Bag of holding. Ring of the ram. Staff of power. Holy avenger.

The magic items you find during your adventures become a part of your story and let you do things beyond the techniques you've mastered and the spells you know. So how do these essentials of the game work in the Pathfinder Playtest?

Magic items are used in three major ways: by investing them, by activating them, or automatically. Invested items are ones you wear that you have to prepare as you don them, after which they work continuously. Activating items follows a system similar to that used for spells. Just as casting a spell requires you to spend actions to supply the somatic, verbal, and material components of the spell, activated items require you to use the Command Activation, Focus Activation, or Operate Activation action, or a combination of multiple actions. A potion requires you to spend an Operate Activation action to drink it. A necklace of fireballs requires you to spend 2 Operate Activation actions to unbind a bead and throw it. Activating a luck blade to reroll an attack just takes a mental nudge with a Focus Activation reaction (though you get to do that only once per day). Automatic activation happens with a small category of items that give their benefit whenever they're used for their normal purpose. A prime example is a sword with the frost property rune, which is always coated with frost and needs only hit a foe to deal extra cold damage.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Resonance

Activating or investing an item costs 1 Resonance Point (RP). You might have heard a bit about this on the Glass Cannon podcast! Resonance is a new resource all characters have that can be used to activate items. Your innate magic item resonance is represented by a number of Resonance Points equal to your level plus your Charisma modifier. This ties back to the Pathfinder First Edition concept of Charisma as the main ability score tied to innate magic, as seen in the Use Magic Device skill and the fact that Charisma is used for spell-like abilities, oracles, sorcerers, and so forth. However, in Pathfinder Second Edition, true scholars of itemcraft *cough*alchemists*cough* might get to use their Intelligence instead.

The idea of resonance stems from the Pathfinder First Edition occultist, who was able to tap into the magical potential of items, and even before that to the idea of resonance between creatures and various magic items, as seen with the resonant powers of wayfinders. We've expanded that concept to apply to everyone. In practical terms, you're really unlikely to run out of Resonance Points unless you're using an absurd number of items, and you're at the greatest risk at low levels. You still have a chance even if your pool is empty, though. You can overspend Resonance Points! If you're at 0 RP, you can attempt to activate or invest an item anyway. You need to attempt a flat check (a d20 roll with no modifiers) against a DC equal to 10 + the number of points you've overspent today. So the first item has a 50% chance of working, and it gets more risky from there.

We expect Resonance Points to be a contentious topic, and we're really curious to see how it plays at your tables. It's one of the more experimental changes to the game, and the playtest process gives us a chance to see it in the wild before committing to it. Here are the advantages we see from a design perspective:

  1. Using items is clear and consistent. Spend the required actions and 1 RP, and you activate or invest your item. If someone else wants to use the same item, you can remove it and let them put it on and invest it themselves.
  2. You have less to track. We get to remove some of the sub-pools that individual items have (such as "10 rounds per day which need not be consecutive" or "5 charges") because we know you have an overall limited resource. There are still some items that can't be used without limit, but they get to be special exceptions rather than being common out of necessity.
  3. It puts the focus on the strongest items. Because you can't activate items indefinitely, your best bet is to use the most RP-efficient item, not the most gp-efficient item. You want a high-level healing wand because you get more healing for your Resonance Point rather than getting a bunch of low-level wands because they're cheap.
  4. Investiture limits what you can wear. That means we don't need to rely heavily on an item slot system, creating more flexibility in what kind of worn items are useful. You'll read more about this on the blog on Friday, when we talk about removing the magic item Christmas tree!

Will those benefits be compelling? Will people prefer this system over the Pathfinder First Edition system? We look forward to finding out!

Want to look at an item to see how this works in practice?

Cloak of Elvenkind Item 10+

Illusion, Invested, Magical

Method of Use worn, cloak; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Focus Activation, [[A]] Operate Activation


This cloak is deep green with a voluminous hood, and is embroidered with gold trim and symbols of significance to the elves. The cloak allows you to cast the ghost sound cantrip as an innate arcane spell. When you draw the hood up over your head (an Interact action), the cloak transforms to match the environment around you and muffles your sounds, giving you an item bonus to Stealth checks. If you activate the cloak, you pull the hood up and are affected by invisibility for 1 minute or until you pull the hood back down, whichever comes first.

Type standard; Level 10; Price 1,000 gp

The cloak grants a +3 bonus.

Type greater; Level 18; Price 24,000 gp

The cloak grants a +5 bonus, and invisibility is 4th level. If you're also wearing greater boots of elvenkind, the greater cloak of elvenkind allows you to Sneak in forest environments even when creatures are currently observing you.

Here's a fairly complex item to show multiple parts of the system at once. The cloak of elvenkind is level 10, and there's also a greater cloak of elvenkind with an item level of 18. In case you missed it in the crafting blog, items have levels now, which indicate the point at which you can craft them (as well as being handy for the GM when making treasure hoards). Method of use indicates that this item is worn and that it's a cloak. A few items have this two-part listing because they're hard to wear multiples of. Multiple cloaks, multiple boots... not practical. Multiple rings or amulets? No problem.

This item is both invested (note the invested trait) and activated (as you can see by the activation entry). Investing the cloak lets you cast ghost sound. You get this benefit as long as the cloak is invested, which means you can cast the spell whenever you want without activating the cloak and therefore without spending more Resonance Points. You can also get an item bonus to Stealth checks from the cloak (+3 or +5 for a greater cloak). Finally, you can activate the cloak as you raise the hood, spending 1 Resonance Point to turn invisible! Certainly not every item has as much going on as a cloak of elvenkind, but several classic items seemed like they needed a little extra special treatment! What do you think? Too much?

How about something simpler?

Floating Shield Item 13

Magical

Price 2,800 gp

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk L

Activation [[A]] Operate Activation


This master-quality light wooden shield (Hardness 6) protects you without requiring you to spend actions each round. When you activate this shield, you can release it from your grip as a part of that action. The shield floats in the air next to you, granting you its bonus automatically, as if you Raised the Shield. Because you're not wielding the shield, you can't use reactions such as Shield Block with the shield.

After 1 minute, the shield drops to the ground, ending its floating effect. While the shield is adjacent to you, you can grasp it with an Interact action, ending its floating effect.

You can hold this and use it just like any other shield. Activating it lets you free up a hand to cause the shield to float, where it protects you without you spending an action! While the floating shield offers far less Hardness than many magic shields of a similar level (some have Hardness up to 18!), it's not meant for Shield Block, and its abilities allow you to use it even with a character who needs both hands for other things.

Now let's look at two special types of items: one revamped classic and one brand-new category!

Staves

We went through several different iterations of staves. They needed to remain a powerful tool for spellcasters, but we also wanted them to appear earlier in the game so you didn't have to wait for most staves to appear at higher levels. Let's see the staff of healing!

Staff of Healing Item 3+

Invested, Magical, Necromancy, Staff

Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk 1

Activation Cast a Spell (1 RP)


Made of smooth white wood, this staff is capped at each end with a golden cross adorned with a multitude of ruby cabochons. A staff of healing adds an item bonus to the Hit Points you restore any time you cast the heal spell using your own spell slots, using charges from the staff, or from channel energy.

Type minor; Level 3; Price 60 gp; Maximum Charges 3

The item bonus to heal spells is +1.

  • stabilize (cantrip)
  • heal (level 1)

I've included only the level 3 minor staff of healing here. There are also versions at levels 7, 11, and 15, and they add higher-level heal spells, plus restoration, remove disease, restore senses, and more! A staff is tied to you, which means you have to invest it, unlike most held items. This investiture has two extra benefits. First off, it links the staff to you, preventing anyone else from investing the staff for 24 hours. More importantly, it restores charges to the staff equal to the highest level of spell you can cast. You don't have to expend any spells to do this; it's all part of using your Resonance Points. You'll notice this also means that if you find one of these as a 1st-level character, it will take you longer to recharge it than if you're a higher-level spellcaster. You also get the item bonus to healing as long as you hold the invested staff.

Now how do you cast these spells? Well, you activate the staff as part of casting one of the spells in it (spending 1 RP as usual). Then you have two options: You can either expend charges from the staff equal to the spell's level (1 charge for heal here) or expend one of your own spells of that level or higher. Yeah, your staff essentially lets you spontaneously cast the spells in it!

Trinkets

How about something completely different? One thing we wanted to add was a type of item that was like scrolls for martial characters. Spellcasters use scrolls and everyone uses potions, but how about something special that relies on nonmagical skills? Trinkets were the answer! Our first example was designed specifically for fighters.

Fear Gem Item 4

Consumable, Enchantment, Fear, Magical, Mental, Trinket

Price 11 gp

Method of Use affixed, weapon; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You use Intimidating Strike, but haven't rolled for the attack yet.


Dark smoke seems to writhe within this obsidian gem. When you activate the gem, if your Intimidating Strike hits, the target is frightened 2 and flat-footed against your attacks until the end of your next turn. If the attack roll is a critical success, the target is flat-footed against your attacks for 1 minute.

Trinkets all have the consumable trait, meaning they're used up after being activated once. They have the "affixed" method of use, and as this one indicates, it has to be affixed to a weapon. You can activate it with a Focus Activation as a free action when you use the Intimidating Strike action from the fighter feat of the same name. This makes the Intimidating Strike more severe, increasing its effect to frightened 2 instead of frightened 1 and making it especially strong on a critical success.

Now how about a trinket that's less specific?

Vanishing Coin Item 9

Consumable, Illusion, Magical, Trinket

Price 85 gp

Method of Use affixed, armor; Bulk

Activation [[F]] Focus Activation; Trigger You attempt a Stealth check for initiative, but haven't rolled yet.

Requirements You are a master in Stealth.


This copper coin dangles from a leather strip strung through a hole drilled into the coin's center. It's usually tied just below the throat on a suit of armor. Until it is activated, the coin becomes invisible for a few seconds every few minutes, but always at random intervals. When you activate the coin, you gain the benefits of a 2nd-level invisibility spell until the end of your next turn.

Anyone with master proficiency in Stealth can use this trinket by affixing it to her armor. She can turn invisible by activating the coin when she rolls a Stealth check for initiative. Pretty useful in the first round of a fight!

Well, there's a lot to say about magic items, and we'll have more to say on Friday. For now, I'm going to leave you with a short list of some of the new items appearing in the Pathfinder Playtest Rulebook in addition to the classics.

  • Anklets of alacrity
  • Feather step stone
  • Forge warden
  • Grim trophy
  • Handwraps of mighty fists
  • Oil of weightlessness
  • Persona mask
  • Potency crystal
  • Runestone
  • Spell duelist's wand
  • Third eye
  • Virtuoso's instrument

Tell us what sorts of items you'd like to see in the final rulebook!

Logan Bonner
Designer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Wayne Reynolds
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Shadow Lodge

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Cantriped wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
That doesn't really solve the issue of someone trying to drink a potion and it's just so much water and now they can't use magic items at all.

The downed Healer corner-case isn't as bad as assumed. They still get their flat 50% roll to overspend, and I'm certain it won't get harder if they fail the roll, so usually it will just be a matter of wasting a few of the lowest-level potions until one sticks; or if you've got a wand you can use your own RP to heal them with that.

At which point the "adventuring day" will be done until the party recovers RP, just like it used to be in 1st & 2nd edition when the cleric ran out of spells.
All that will really change is that we'll save the cheap potions and wands for end-of-day topping off of our HP before rest so that we don't "waste" our unspent RP.

You can overspend Resonance Points! If you're at 0 RP, you can attempt to activate or invest an item anyway. You need to attempt a flat check (a d20 roll with no modifiers) against a DC equal to 10 + the number of points you've overspent today. So the first item has a 50% chance of working, and it gets more risky from there.

To me that reads as overspending activates the chance, not success activates the chance. Wasting potions is even worse in this system too, since they are more expensive now. Too expensive.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
That doesn't really solve the issue of someone trying to drink a potion and it's just so much water and now they can't use magic items at all.

The downed Healer corner-case isn't as bad as assumed. They still get their flat 50% roll to overspend, and I'm certain it won't get harder if they fail the roll, so usually it will just be a matter of wasting a few of the lowest-level potions until one sticks; or if you've got a wand you can use your own RP to heal them with that.

At which point the "adventuring day" will be done until the party recovers RP, just like it used to be in 1st & 2nd edition when the cleric ran out of spells.
All that will really change is that we'll save the cheap potions and wands for end-of-day topping off of our HP before rest so that we don't "waste" our unspent RP.

You can overspend Resonance Points! If you're at 0 RP, you can attempt to activate or invest an item anyway. You need to attempt a flat check (a d20 roll with no modifiers) against a DC equal to 10 + the number of points you've overspent today. So the first item has a 50% chance of working, and it gets more risky from there.

To me that reads as overspending activates the chance, not success activates the chance. Wasting potions is even worse in this system too, since they are more expensive now. Too expensive.

Magic isn't the only way to heal, either. Use mundane healing if you want to conserve your resonance.


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I am fairly certain that if you fail to overspend an RP (and therefore gain no benefits from the potion because there was no RP to fuel it), than by defination and common sense you haven't overspent that RP yet... Note how the quoted text specifies "the number of points you've overspent" not "the number of times you've attempted to overspend".
It does not matter how many times you fail in a row, you still have a 50% chance to sucessfully overspend the first time, and a 45% the second, etc... until it finally becomes impossible to overspend at all (since eventually the Flat DC will be 21+). You are still wasting 3 gp potions (and the bulk spent to carry them) on failures, but at least your playtest cleric has a chance.


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Cantriped wrote:

I am fairly certain that if you fail to overspend an RP (and therefore gain no benefits from the potion because there was no RP to fuel it), than by defination and common sense you haven't overspent that RP yet... Note how the quoted text specifies "the number of points you've overspent" not "the number of times you've attempted to overspend".

It does not matter how many times you fail in a row, you still have a 50% chance to sucessfully overspend the first time, and a 45% the second, etc... until it finally becomes impossible to overspend at all (since eventually the Flat DC will be 21+). You are still wasting 3 gp potions (and the bulk spent to carry them) on failures, but at least your playtest cleric has a chance.

The qualifier on this is that we have heard that crit-failing the overspend check results in being cut off if you will. On the first point that's not an issue, you cannot crit-fail a DC 10 check, but at the second one you crit-fail on a nat 1, the next a 2, then a 3, and so on and so forth. At the 7th point you're as likely to crit-fail as you are to succeed, and beyond that of course it's actually more likely you'll crit-fail.


That makes sense, and is a restriction I can accept only because it means a character can almost always be saved at 0 RP, even by someone with 0 RP (such as might happen during a night-ambush encounter)... and resonance depletion syndrome only sets in if the player is "foolish" or wasteful with their RP and takes unnecessary risks (like overspending on anything other than emergency healing).

Although I wish it were a little kinder... and I really hate that you draw from the same pool you use to invest items... perhaps other game elements will modify when you do and don't have to spend RP in a sensible way.


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Shinigami02 wrote:
Cantriped wrote:

I am fairly certain that if you fail to overspend an RP (and therefore gain no benefits from the potion because there was no RP to fuel it), than by defination and common sense you haven't overspent that RP yet... Note how the quoted text specifies "the number of points you've overspent" not "the number of times you've attempted to overspend".

It does not matter how many times you fail in a row, you still have a 50% chance to sucessfully overspend the first time, and a 45% the second, etc... until it finally becomes impossible to overspend at all (since eventually the Flat DC will be 21+). You are still wasting 3 gp potions (and the bulk spent to carry them) on failures, but at least your playtest cleric has a chance.
The qualifier on this is that we have heard that crit-failing the overspend check results in being cut off if you will. On the first point that's not an issue, you cannot crit-fail a DC 10 check, but at the second one you crit-fail on a nat 1, the next a 2, then a 3, and so on and so forth. At the 7th point you're as likely to crit-fail as you are to succeed, and beyond that of course it's actually more likely you'll crit-fail.

Rolling a natural 1 on a failure turns it into a critical failure, so you can crit fail at DC10

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.


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Arssanguinus wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Wandering Wastrel wrote:

Make Wands Magical Again.

Don't have wands that simply replicate spell effects. Abolish the CLW wand, the Mage Armour wand. That's what scrolls are for! Make wands do weird, wonderful, amazing things. Make finding a wand into a genuine bit of treasure.

THAT is something I could get behind.

I am 110% on board with this idea, even if it may be a bit late to change things for the Playtest. I would LOVE to see Paizo give a playest "round" a shot whereby Wands are turned into something ENTIRELY different, something closer to what the Meta-Magic Rods are.

The fantasy trope of spellcasters waving wands at each other shows them using ANY spell they know with the wand as a focus, with some wands being more powerful or unique. I can't recall ANY stories that didn't rely on the Crunch of the 3.0+ Edition Rules as a backdrop that featured a wand that works as they presently do, a reusable single-spell stick.

Wand being something vaguely akin to meta magic rods then. They don’t cast spells per se, but modify the spells you cast.

Then you'd have to get rid of Rods in the game, which doesn't seem likely. (Not saying they shouldn't, or they won't, since they haven't been previewed or mentioned as an existing magic item, but then again, we got an Oil as an example in the latest Blog post, the first mention of such an item type in this game, so anything from PF1 is still possible yet).

One idea I did consider was to have wands be "Magic Weapons, but for Spellcasters," where a Potency rune on a Wand granted a +1 bonus to the Save DC of a spell, as well as an extra dice of effect (or an additional +1 bonus if a spell grants a flat bonus instead of rolling dice), and having exclusive properties on Wands for certain spells (similar to metamagic, but more specific to types of spells), but that would require completely rebalancing Magic as we know it in PF2, which I would not expect to happen whatsoever.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.

I didn't know I got to choose to only roll 2-20s! That makes it a lot less of a problem, thanks.

Back in reality, I'll consider medicine when I get a breakdown on how it works and not while all I have is a breakdown on how potions and wands work (and then don't...).


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One thing I did realize is that, not only will I have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain how certain abilities and spells work, I now have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain why certain abilities and spells/items didn't work.

It appears PF2 just turned the "Because Magic!" statement from a one-way alley into a two-way street. Imagine that...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cantriped wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.

I didn't know I got to choose to only roll 2-20s! That makes it a lot less of a problem, thanks.

Back in reality, I'll consider medicine when I get a breakdown on how it works and not while all I have is a breakdown on how potions and wands work (and then don't...).

Well you can have some control if you are really worried about this situation. You get Hero Points as core in PF2E and can use those to reroll stuff.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

One thing I did realize is that, not only will I have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain how certain abilities and spells work, I now have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain why certain abilities and spells/items didn't work.

It appears PF2 just turned the "Because Magic!" statement from a one-way alley into a two-way street. Imagine that...

You say that like it is a bad thing. To me it is a good thing. "Because magic, but beware because magic has limits!"


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KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.

do we know if mundane healing will be as good as magical healing yet? Awesome...


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Malk_Content wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

One thing I did realize is that, not only will I have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain how certain abilities and spells work, I now have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain why certain abilities and spells/items didn't work.

It appears PF2 just turned the "Because Magic!" statement from a one-way alley into a two-way street. Imagine that...

You say that like it is a bad thing. To me it is a good thing. "Because magic, but beware because magic has limits!"

I just think it's ironic how Resonance is the reason why magic is inconsistent on so many levels.

"Why does this spell allow for X to happen?" "Because Magic!"

"Why won't this item work?" "Because Magic!"

I can assure you that if I do this at my table, and my players get pissed, the only thing I'll have to say after that is "Only with Resonance rules will stuff like this happen."


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Malk_Content wrote:
Well you can have some control if you are really worried about this situation. You get Hero Points as core in PF2E and can use those to reroll stuff.

I'm not going to assume they'll let me spend those on rerolling overspending checks.


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dragonhunterq wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.
do we know if mundane healing will be as good as magical healing yet? Awesome...

Nope. All we know is that it exists.

In hindsight though, I doubt it will be any good in comparison to magic. If it was, then nobody would have a reason to use magic (unless there's an "Anti-Mundane Field" spell, which cuts out all natural ability and only Magical effects apply), meaning there has to be some limits on mundane healing that magical healing can do (and mundane healing can't).


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Malk_Content wrote:
Cantriped wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.

I didn't know I got to choose to only roll 2-20s! That makes it a lot less of a problem, thanks.

Back in reality, I'll consider medicine when I get a breakdown on how it works and not while all I have is a breakdown on how potions and wands work (and then don't...).

Well you can have some control if you are really worried about this situation. You get Hero Points as core in PF2E and can use those to reroll stuff.

For reals? Where the heck did they preview this at?


Personally, I am not onboard the "RP for consumables so wrong" train.
IMHO that is part and parcel of the system itself.
Which I see as regulating uses of magic above and beyond class abilties (spell slots, points etc).
It doesn't make sense to me why class abilities should be so regulated in spells/day, but object magic wouldn't be.
If consumables don't use RP then that goal isn't achieved. In the details I see room for improvement though.

I think the Wands = Stave style Charges, i.e. they are no longer consumables, is the way to go.
This actually would mean non-casters WOULD need to have somebody else re-charge them, but IMHO that is fitting callback
to distinction of casters having easier access to Wands than non-Casters, updated to new paradigm.
(it also gives side-benefit to anybody who grabs an SLA somehow)
Alternatively, Wands could have special rule that ANYBODY Investing them recharges at least 1 spell-level per day of Charge,
which still leaves casters better off but lets non-casters use them in ongoing manner without running to a caster to re-charge.

Besides removing the side benefits of Investiture and ability to cast the spells with your own slots which I mentioned before
(the 'cast with own slots' feature just doesn't seem to qualify for RP expenditure IMHO, since it's not 'in addition to your own magic')
I guess the number of max Charges is open to variability, non-casters perhaps liking higher Charge versions since they can't recharge them as quickly, but those would be higher cost.


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BTW, does anybody have ANY rationale for why Alchemists should get special bonus to Resonance?
I brought that up, but really I just can't think of any. It's emphasized Alchemy is Definitely Not Magic, so why the connection?
Even if it were, say Occult magic, I think it's stepping on toes of future Occultist too much (both being INT based).
Is there some missing link I can't see?

Also... We need to hear more from people who have been in actual playtests.
It's ridiculous having to wade thru all the "this is total failure" comments ignoring actual playtests have been well received,
but I'd really like to hear more directly from playtest feedback itself... If Paizo wants to solicit that to go along with Blog, great,
or hopefully these people could just chime in on the forum, although not sure if they are limited by NDA (which Paizo could loosen...?).

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Quandry,
I think it's for the Alchemist's ability to make elixirs on the fly (which costs Resonance). They probably decided that Resonance made more sense than Spell Points for that ability and didn't really want to create a third Alchemist only pool of points to track having done their best to standardise everyone else. So they need a bit of a boost to prevent them falling behind by using one of their key class abilities.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
In hindsight though, I doubt it will be any good in comparison to magic. If it was, then nobody would have a reason to use magic (unless there's an "Anti-Mundane Field" spell, which cuts out all natural ability and only Magical effects apply), meaning there has to be some limits on mundane healing that magical healing can do (and mundane healing can't).

I suspect the key defining difference will probably be time. You're not going to be setting bones and sewing someone up in the middle of combat, but magic can do that in an instant. I suspect even healing elixirs will probably be more akin to fast healing than the instant healing of pots.

As far as the Alchemist Resonance thing goes, I think it's that the Alchemist is using their Personal Localized Field of Magic as a 'shortcut' of sorts when it comes to throwing together Alchemical Items faster or cheaper than normal.


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Paul Watson wrote:
They probably decided that Resonance made more sense than Spell Points for that ability

Why does [magic capacity #1] make more sense than [magic capacity #2] for Definitely Not Magic capability?

Quote:
and didn't really want to create a third Alchemist only pool of points to track having done their best to standardise everyone else.

Well, unless you are multiclassing Alchemist with magic-using classes, that doesn't seem like actual problem.

If casters can manage spell slots + spell points, what is the great need here to avoid such a situation?

Shinigami02 wrote:
I think it's that the Alchemist is using their Personal Localized Field of Magic as a 'shortcut' of sorts when it comes to throwing together Alchemical Items faster or cheaper than normal.

Which would imply that at least their temporary daily use Alchemy is indeed magic, right?


Quandary wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
I think it's that the Alchemist is using their Personal Localized Field of Magic as a 'shortcut' of sorts when it comes to throwing together Alchemical Items faster or cheaper than normal.

Which would imply that at least their temporary daily use Alchemy is indeed magic, right?

The Means basically are. We'll have to see the end result to determine whether the end result is or not.


Shinigami02 wrote:
The Means basically are. We'll have to see the end result to determine whether the end result is or not.

But if the temporary alchemy is considered magic up until the point it is activated, that still doesn't justify it to me. Like I said, it lacks the thematic linkage that Occultist has. If you say it IS magic after all, then why not just give them Spell Point pool?


I'd be fine giving them a spell point pool. The only issue comes with multiclassing, but I'd be fine just handwaving that. Though I do think it would have been wise making the pool not inherently magical, by calling them spell points. You could have it flavored as Stamina for Martials, Alchemy for alchemists, and Spell for casters, and even fold in grit and panache, like they've done with ki (which I guess was always magic-ish, by virtue of supernatural, but to me never really felt the same as a spellcaster's magic), and just assume that they're using the aspects of their training relevant to the discipline they're using. But I can understand why that might rankle some.


Well if temporary alchemy is magical up until activated, then no problem calling it magical Spell Point pool that is shared with other magical class Spell Points. Or if it's REALLY Definitely Not Magic, I don't see problem just using Slots like caster classes have no problem tracking alongside Resonance and Spell Points, so even if you multiclass Alchemist + Caster it isn't anything more than having distinct Spell Slots.

I did consider Grit and Panache in this, as 'Definitely Not Magic' stuff. Although IMHO I dislike the late 19c/early 20c vibe of Gunslinger (it should be for EarlyModernFinder game between Pathfinder & Starfinder, or kept for APs like the one going to Earth), and prefer guns to be kept to medieval Arquebus style ones whose biggest specialist may just be Alchemist feat chain/archetype... Or if it is distinct class, could still hinge on same system as Alchemist. Panache though, what would it be? Spell Points? Resonance seems EVEN more inappropriate than re: Alchemist, if that's possible.


The alchemist thing does seem weird. I assume it has to do with them wanting to put a limit on their bomb throwing but keeping it a core part of the classes gameplay regardless of where ever else they take their character. I don't know the rational behind having the alchemist dip into equipment resources rather than potential feat and multiclassing sources. I'm not entirely sure why spell points and resonance are separate at all.

Spell points are already dipping into the multi-point cost idea, and it's possible to make the pools do similar things, so it should be simple to make the two pools agree. We also have the channeling pool, so if they really wanted to protect alchemist gameplay, they could have given them their own protected pool like clerics have.

If this is an effort to swap resonance based healing for resonance based damage, then I have to say it seems to be more than a little weird.


Quandary wrote:

Well if temporary alchemy is magical up until activated, then no problem calling it magical Spell Point pool that is shared with other magical class Spell Points. Or if it's REALLY Definitely Not Magic, I don't see problem just using Slots like caster classes have no problem tracking alongside Resonance and Spell Points, so even if you multiclass Alchemist + Caster it isn't anything more than having distinct Spell Slots.

I did consider Grit and Panache in this, as 'Definitely Not Magic' stuff. Although IMHO I dislike the late 19c/early 20c vibe of Gunslinger (it should be for EarlyModernFinder game between Pathfinder & Starfinder, or kept for APs like the one going to Earth), and prefer guns to be kept to medieval Arquebus style ones whose biggest specialist may just be Alchemist feat chain/archetype... Or if it is distinct class, could still hinge on same system as Alchemist. Panache though, what would it be? Spell Points? Resonance seems EVEN more inappropriate than re: Alchemist, if that's possible.

Gun Tangent:
I actually like the Gunslinger, at least in the lore of Golarion. For Golarion, the need to progress to modern warfare technologies is diminished when you have magic, and Alkenstar sort of explores how early modern technology might coexist in a world that is vastly magical otherwise.

But that's not really here nor there. For Panache, I have no idea how they'd do it, and that's one of my big reasons for not really liking the establishment of spell points, as the term, as opposed to something more broadly applicable. As a class, being totally not biased from having a super cool Bladed Brush Swashbuckler I just wrapped up a campaign with, I really like the swashbuckler, but with the [blank] Points system being pretty heavily tied to spells, I think the closest we'll see to a swashbuckler is an archetype focused on one handed weapons, with the other hand free.


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If they are already using a separate pool from both spell points and resonance for some classes, namely Channel for the cleric, I don't see why Alchemy can't be its own pool.

But yeah, put me in the camp that I've stated before - I'd rather "spell points" were just Stamina, and could be used as a more general resource to fuel all such abilities across all magical and nonmagical classes. It could be a universal level based pool, you wouldn't actually get extra points for taking more "spell point" abilities. Then there'd even be a flavor reason if they wanted to let you get some of that pool back on taking a short rest, it could be a target for monsters to drain, etc.


If it were up to me I would have two universal metacurrencies:
- things that cease working in an Anti-Magic Field or similar.
- things that work just fine no matter where you're at.

Put things like Panache, Grit, Stamina, etc. in the latter category, but the benefit of having "Spell points" is making it clear to use the rules for spells for these things.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

One thing I did realize is that, not only will I have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain how certain abilities and spells work, I now have to use the "Because Magic!" statement to explain why certain abilities and spells/items didn't work.

It appears PF2 just turned the "Because Magic!" statement from a one-way alley into a two-way street. Imagine that...

You say that like it is a bad thing. To me it is a good thing. "Because magic, but beware because magic has limits!"

I just think it's ironic how Resonance is the reason why magic is inconsistent on so many levels.

"Why does this spell allow for X to happen?" "Because Magic!"

"Why won't this item work?" "Because Magic!"

I can assure you that if I do this at my table, and my players get pissed, the only thing I'll have to say after that is "Only with Resonance rules will stuff like this happen."

If it isn't Resonance they'll likely come up with some other restriction. And if they've read the rules, they won't have to ask and can come to their own conclusions without the well being soured by someone elses pessimism, which is something that to be fair is very hard to achieve in a social game.

For Hero Points if you go to the official Paizo twitch there is a video on character creation. Erik talks a little about Hero Points towards the end of that.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.
do we know if mundane healing will be as good as magical healing yet? Awesome...

Nope. All we know is that it exists.

In hindsight though, I doubt it will be any good in comparison to magic. If it was, then nobody would have a reason to use magic (unless there's an "Anti-Mundane Field" spell, which cuts out all natural ability and only Magical effects apply), meaning there has to be some limits on mundane healing that magical healing can do (and mundane healing can't).

that's what I thought, so medicine is not the answer.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.
do we know if mundane healing will be as good as magical healing yet? Awesome...

Nope. All we know is that it exists.

In hindsight though, I doubt it will be any good in comparison to magic. If it was, then nobody would have a reason to use magic (unless there's an "Anti-Mundane Field" spell, which cuts out all natural ability and only Magical effects apply), meaning there has to be some limits on mundane healing that magical healing can do (and mundane healing can't).

that's what I thought, so medicine is not the answer.

Medicine skill probably has the cost of time, vs magical doing it an a couple actions. So while in combat magical reigns supreme, out of combat, mundane might be able to give it a run for it's money.

Magical can probably take care of things like permanent blindness/deafness/etc earlier on than mundane healing as well.


So what if we made overspending resonance work like Burn in PF1? If you overspend resonance, instead of rolling and possibly being out for the day you just take 1 HP/level nonlethal damage which cannot be healed in any way short of a good night's rest.

Would people like that better? I'm not sure I like "roll for if the thing works." Doing this would get across the "you're pushing yourself past your limit" but would also leave you well aware that the next thing is going to work 100% of the time.

Maybe giving people the *option* to do this instead of rolling and increasing the DC would work?


I could get used to a Burn-Like mechanic for Overspending. That would work just fine... but cause all the problems that plagued the Kineticist to spread to every character in the party. There could be TPKs as a result.

Similarly, they could patch my biggest complaint about Resonance right into the text of healing potions by giving it a clause allowing you to automatically succeed when Overspending to activate a healing potion if you are Dying.
That way it'll still deplete RP, but you won't ever die in spite of your allies trying to save you.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

So what if we made overspending resonance work like Burn in PF1? If you overspend resonance, instead of rolling and possibly being out for the day you just take 1 HP/level nonlethal damage which cannot be healed in any way short of a good night's rest.

Would people like that better? I'm not sure I like "roll for if the thing works." Doing this would get across the "you're pushing yourself past your limit" but would also leave you well aware that the next thing is going to work 100% of the time.

Maybe giving people the *option* to do this instead of rolling and increasing the DC would work?

Aside from the fact that nonlethal damage probably doesn't exist anymore, this is definitely a good idea. Maybe reduce max HP instead?


I suspect nonlethal damage is in, but works like Starfinder. Its entirely interchangeable until the target hits zero, but when dropped to 0 HP with a nonlethal attack, they're unconscious but stable rather than unconscious and dying.


Voss wrote:
I suspect nonlethal damage is in, but works like Starfinder. Its entirely interchangeable until the target hits zero, but when dropped to 0 HP with a nonlethal attack, they're unconscious but stable rather than unconscious and dying.

That is indeed how it works. It was explained in one of the Glass Cannon Podcast preview episodes, when a character took nonlethal damage from a fall. It is easier to track, I'll grant you, though I'm disappointed, because I often like to use nonlethal damage (I play a lot of Sarenraean and Shelynite characters, I guess), and I'm not exactly thrilled if I deal nonlethal damage to an enemy, leaving them with 1 HP, only to have the next character kill them. But since death by negative HP isn't a thing, I suppose I could see myself just investing a little more in medicine for those situations.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
So what if we made overspending resonance work like Burn in PF1?

Well, taking into account that burn is one of the things I truly loathed in pathfinder classic, bringing ANYTHING like it into mainstream for every character would be a good way to make sure I never bought anything for the new version.

Liberty's Edge

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dragonhunterq wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
So don't roll a 1. Or if you are worried about your resonance budget, use Medicine instead of heal.
do we know if mundane healing will be as good as magical healing yet? Awesome...

Nope. All we know is that it exists.

In hindsight though, I doubt it will be any good in comparison to magic. If it was, then nobody would have a reason to use magic (unless there's an "Anti-Mundane Field" spell, which cuts out all natural ability and only Magical effects apply), meaning there has to be some limits on mundane healing that magical healing can do (and mundane healing can't).

that's what I thought, so medicine is not the answer.

Except that logic doesn't follow at all. As others note, it might be as simple as Medicine taking a minute to raise HP and thus being useless in combat. Doesn't mean it's not excellent out of combat healing.


graystone wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So what if we made overspending resonance work like Burn in PF1?
Well, taking into account that burn is one of the things I truly loathed in pathfinder classic, bringing ANYTHING like it into mainstream for every character would be a good way to make sure I never bought anything for the new version.

You know saying things like that without reasoning behind that doesn't help sway people to your side. It leaves people with igther 2 options They'll say well good riddance or suck it up. It has that ultimatum sound to it which generally turns people off to listening to someone.

I would say something more like I would strongly hope that is not the case I do not like the burn mechanic because of these reasons >>Insert reasons here<< (and just to be clear I don't like the burn mechanic myself.)

I think if we were going to do something like that I figure at 0 resonance get like the sick 1 condition then 2 etc etc.


I feel like even though "you need to hurt yourself to do your basic schtick" might be annoying to some people (even though this is what drew me to the Kineticist and in practice you almost never blast at >0 burn cost), this is a whole different kettle of fish than "you have depleted your reservoir/filled up your tolerance, but need to push yourself even further, which hurts you."

Like if you're sitting on a lot of burn since you just had to go through a bunch of consumables because you were out of resonance and in a really tough spot... that's when you rest if at all possible. But being able to take that burn might save your life, in which case it's worth it.

In any case I really hope the Kineticist still uses Burn in PF2 and not spell points or resonance. Make burn a consequence for overspending resonance, then you can have the Occultist as "Master of Resonance" and the Kineticist as "Master of Burn".


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I want the kinetcist to have burn I just wanted it tweeked a little. I thought it should be recovered like a 10 minute rest instead of every 24 hours.


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I mostly felt like the burn mechanic just obscured the class's baseline. It worked out to a full BAB class with a d6 hit die, but with plusses and minuses spread about here and there. If they baked in the overload bonuses and gave a free burn pool based on what would have been spent to get there, it would have been more accessible without reducing player choice. The current design is just sloppy.

Fortunately a kineticist in Pathfinder 2 would be instantly better regardless of how burn worked. They've made it clear that spell like abilities will be spells for all purposes which was one of the big problems with kineticist; lack of interaction with the rest of the game due to an over specificity in its abilities.

I agree though, exporting burn to all classes would be really unpalatable.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
You know saying things like that without reasoning behind that doesn't help sway people to your side.

It wasn't really an attempt to influence but a statement of fact. Anyone that was around for the Kineticist playtest should know my feeling and reasons: heck I think there's a pretty good chance Mark knows. It boils down to 'I don't want to punch myself in the face to power-up', especially incurable damage punches. In terms of "resonance work like Burn", 'I don't want to punch myself in the face to heal...'.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
In any case I really hope the Kineticist still uses Burn in PF2 and not spell points or resonance.

Oh I hope not: new pathfinder is the chance to fix it and make it playable to me. They could do like the alchemist [gets resonance+] with spell points [in essence, they can be the 'master' of them]. Though, I'd take most anything that wasn't burn.


I guess the theme is that burn is the kineticist wearing themselves out by pushing there powers to much. so Just need a different way of representing that. like the Barbs fatigue I guess?


Vidmaster7 wrote:
like the Barbs fatigue I guess?

So they can't use their powers every 4th round?

Shadow Lodge

I really like Kineticist, and could totally get behind a burn mechanic like rage. Gather power as an action, you get bonuses and a slight penalty for a few rounds, then you're empty and have to re-gather. It makes more sense for a Kineticist than a Barbarian, and we can already guess there are barbarian abilities that work outside of raging(like dragon wings). Whether we are right or not is another matter...


Kineticist could totally have an action to Gather Power, with Burn being the penalty they take if they use their power without gathering it first.


Admittedly, the idea of resonance felt strange to me at first but it's growing on me quickly. Personally, I'm bad at using daily item charges and consumables despite prefering to play spellcasters. RP looks like it'll genuinely improve item resource management.

One consequence of using Cha for resonance is that it oddly makes bards and sorcerers more of magic item aficionados than the wizard. Wizards have numberous gadgety archetypes in fiction; perhaps they're also a good candidate for Int to RP. Wizards also seem like a class that will want RP boosting class feats.

The idea of adding whole weapon dice to magic weapons sounds awesome but without more info it does look like it'll further ingrain magic item dependancy. Without that +3 longsword you'll be dealing 3d8 less damage, making monster hp that's blanced for the extra damage harder to chew through. It would be good to have support for low magic (or no magic) settings, not to mention magic item dependancy causes problems when the party is undergeared for their level. Sometimes loot falls behind by accident; GMs and players aren't infalible and sometimes the problem takes a while to fully correct. I love the effort going into making magic items more interesting, though I'd like to see some work go into making the game viable without magic items.

So let me get Vorpal straight:
You have to roll a natural 20, spend an RP, and then the monster must fail a Fort save?
*Limiting the snicker-snacker to 20s was smart of original Pathfinder (as compared to its former silliness attainable in D&D 3e).
*Spending resonance, I can stomach.
*But does getting your head lopped off really need a Fort save now? In my mind that's like making the guillotine a Fort save or die affair. This changes the whole French Revolution, not to mention the Jabberwocky. Honestly, I'm not a fan of this move even at the risk of Vorpal being OP. If it absolutely needs a balancing factor, maybe head lopping could cost extra RP? Everything else about Vorpal looks good to me on paper.

I'm eager to see how Pathfinder 2e magic items work out in the play and excited about the resonance mechanic. Here's to the playtest!

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