Big Beards and Pointy Ears

Can't say I like that you're just given your hit points based on what race you pick now. I hope that's just what happens at level one and you have to roll for hit points based on your class after that. Or that we still get the option to roll for hit points at level one. I hate being told "this is what you get, no option to generate stats/hit points for yourself." Streamlined systems are great, but I still want a good amount of randomness involved in character generation.

Other than that, the ancestry feats look okay. Still not a big fan of them, but at least I can build my traditional dwarf with poison resistance, axe and hammer proficiency, and hatred of goblinoids.

On hybrids:

Half-elves and half-orcs are 2 of the 4 most common PC races. Together they account for 15% of PCs. They are hugely popular, so trying to create overbroad rules that include half-elves and half-orcs under the same rules as "half-tengu-half-gnomes" and "half-dwarf-half-gripplis" is likely to end up very confusing and not intuitive for the many many players who want to play them.

I'm not saying generic hybridization rules shouldn't exist, just that having players scouring five different sections of the rulebook to create a half-elf is bad design.

All in all, I'm digging the dwarf and elf. These ancestry feats make me really want to explore just how far they can go.

Can't say I like that you're just given your hit points based on what race you pick now. I hope that's just what happens at level one and you have to roll for hit points based on your class after that.

I think at level 1 you get HP from your ancestry and your class and your constitution modifier. At subsequent levels you get HP from your class and your constitution modifier.

So a level 1 Dwarf Fighter with 14 Con will have 22 HP (10+10+2) and a level 1 Elf Fighter with 14 Con will have 18 HP (6+10+2) At level 2 the Dwarf fighter will have 32 HP, while the Elf has 28.

I believe the goal here is mostly to make level 1 characters more sturdy, whereas in PF1 a lot of the time you'd take one hit and want to stop for the day.

a bunch of "corrections"

Sorry bud, but all of your "corrections" come down to style and aren't particularly helpful, nor are they any more correct than the originals.

Joana wrote:

You're right about the unnecessary commas, however.

What, is it, that you are, trying to, say?

I, like, commas!

MidsouthGuy wrote:

Can't say I like that you're just given your hit points based on what race you pick now. I hope that's just what happens at level one and you have to roll for hit points based on your class after that.

I think at level 1 you get HP from your ancestry and your class and your constitution modifier. At subsequent levels you get HP from your class and your constitution modifier.

So a level 1 Dwarf Fighter with 14 Con will have 22 HP (10+10+2) and a level 1 Elf Fighter with 14 Con will have 18 HP (6+10+2) At level 2 the Dwarf fighter will have 32 HP, while the Elf has 28.

I believe the goal here is mostly to make level 1 characters more sturdy, whereas in PF1 a lot of the time you'd take one hit and want to stop for the day.

This is mostly correct based on all the info we have so far (you forgot to add Con to the 2nd level HP, which makes it 34 for the Dwarf and 30 for the Elf). No more rolling for HP, but they are still mostly based on Class and Constitution, with Race a very distant third.

I wonder if it'll be possible to never take a non-heritage ancestry feat.

I am very curious about human stat bonuses now.

On hybrids:

Half-elves and half-orcs are 2 of the 4 most common PC races. Together they account for 15% of PCs. They are hugely popular, so trying to create overbroad rules that include half-elves and half-orcs under the same rules as "half-tengu-half-gnomes" and "half-dwarf-half-gripplis" is likely to end up very confusing and not intuitive for the many many players who want to play them.

I'm not saying generic hybridization rules shouldn't exist, just that having players scouring five different sections of the rulebook to create a half-elf is bad design.

Which is why i said they should leverage the ancestry feat mechanic already being developed to build them. You simply choose your 'blooded' feat as your 1st level ancestry feat, and it opens up all your follow-on ancestry feats to be selected from either parent. I mentioned possibly adding a minor bonus as well as the unlock to offset the loss of the primary ancestry's specialization.

I wonder if it'll be possible to never take a non-heritage ancestry feat.

From what's been revealed so far? No. You get one every 4 levels, and can only take a Heritage Feat at 1st.

Depending on how they set things up, you may never have to take one of the Dwarf ones if you're a Dwarf raised by humans, but you need to take them.

I am very curious about human stat bonuses now.

I'd bet on two floating +2s, possibly with suggestions that certain cultural groups favor certain stats.

I think you screwed the elf too much with that hit die

its a deal breaker

its more then made up for with the movement , and nible feat ...that's gonna be brutal with a ranged character

Name for me even a single iconic half-dwarf or half-gnome anywhere in fantasy and I'll bite here.

Obviously you haven't played in the Dark Sun campaign setting, otherwise you would know about the Mul.

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Based on how 'generic' half-elves in pf1 are, I can't see how simply choosing human with the elf-blooded feat, or vice versa, in pf2 would turn people away. The same could be said for half-orcs (choosing orc with the human-blooded, or vice versa). What this DOES do is allow DWORCS and DWELFS, right out of the core, which I have seen homebrewed so many times that it's odd that the devs didn't look in that direction.

If i had to bet, it is because you are projecting your own experience as a common theme among others.

Half Dwarf is a thing i have never even seen in pathfinder really.

If it was in the book or atleast hand made by me or another GM, sure it probably would be picked from time to time, but it isnt something people called to be made in the first place.

yeah the only half dwarves i can think of are in darksun

eddv wrote:

Name for me even a single iconic half-dwarf or half-gnome anywhere in fantasy and I'll bite here.

Obviously you haven't played in the Dark Sun campaign setting, otherwise you would know about the Mul.

Yeah... but no one every played them because Tolkein didn't write them.. :/

I think you screwed the elf too much

Is such a thing even possible? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )

Re: ancestries having fewer abilities than rates at 1st level, it seems like the rates are stronger than racial traits in 1st edition. Ancestral hatred, for example, sounds like it gives more than just a +1 to hit two critters.

With all the customization available through feats, I'd be happy for fewer abilities that are more meaningful.

Misleading title, I see no beards.

You should be thankful. That lady dwarf's beard is so lush, so soft, and so lustrous that elves would weep in despair at the sight of it, their own hair feeling like mangy, tangled steel wool in comparison.

Upon seeing that lady dwarf's beard, hobgoblins would go mad with envy, as their minds become covetously obsessed with stealing her wondrous hair to make wigs for their own follicly-deprived pates.

Upon catching but a glimpse, a halfling would shave themselves entirely bald including their beloved feetsie hairs, and join a monastery after taking a vow of everhairlessness.

Upon spying such luxurious locks, a tengu would sell all their baubles, gewgaws, and sparkly gems for but a single hair to line their nest. But woe the innocent tengu hatchlings: upon seeing such a majestic hair, they would know only sorrow at all life's treasures being hopelessly dull and mundane in comparison.

If the masterful Wayne Reynolds even sketched the beginnings of such a beard, he would be kidnapped away by some billionaire, chained to an easel, and forced to spend the rest of his life painting masterpieces that would never grace the pages of another Paizo product.

That lady's beard is rendered invisible by powerful magics to maintain the peace throughout the multiverse. Be thankful.

Grovestrider wrote:

eddv wrote:

Name for me even a single iconic half-dwarf or half-gnome anywhere in fantasy and I'll bite here.

Obviously you haven't played in the Dark Sun campaign setting, otherwise you would know about the Mul.

Yeah... but no one every played them because Tolkein didn't write them.. :/

Well, there's this: Umli

I'm not sure it's from Tolkein or just the RPG, though.

I wonder if it'll be possible to never take a non-heritage ancestry feat.

Isn't the blog clear that you can only take Heritage feats at level 1?

Heritage feats are a special type of ancestry feat that reflect special physiological traits of your ancestry. Because they're inborn, you can select them only at 1st level.

From what's been revealed so far? No. You get one every 4 levels, and can only take a Heritage Feat at 1st.

Depending on how they set things up, you may never have to take one of the Dwarf ones if you're a Dwarf raised by humans, but you need to take them.

That's unfortunate, that means I'll need to remove/replace the ancestry feat system completely in my games just because I don't play Golarion.

Can I get a source for the every 4 levels? I seem to have missed where that was said?

Milo v3 wrote:

I wonder if it'll be possible to never take a non-heritage ancestry feat.

Isn't the blog clear that you can only take Heritage feats at level 1?

Quote:

Heritage feats are a special type of ancestry feat that reflect special physiological traits of your ancestry. Because they're inborn, you can select them only at 1st level.

he said non-heritage ancestry feats.

Isn't the blog clear that you can only take Heritage feats at level 1?

Yes it is. That is irrelevant to what I asked though, since I was saying I don't want to have to take non-heritage feats at all, hoping that you aren't forced to take them after first level.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Milo v3 wrote:

I wonder if it'll be possible to never take a non-heritage ancestry feat.

Isn't the blog clear that you can only take Heritage feats at level 1?

Quote:

Heritage feats are a special type of ancestry feat that reflect special physiological traits of your ancestry. Because they're inborn, you can select them only at 1st level.

he said non-heritage ancestry feats.

"Never take a non-heritage ancestry feat" is logically equivalent to "take only heritage ancestry feats" isn't it? I mean, assuming you can't just trade your ancestry feats away.

Should be easy enough to house-rule. August 2nd crawls ever closer ... ;)

Can't say I like that you're just given your hit points based on what race you pick now. I hope that's just what happens at level one and you have to roll for hit points based on your class after that. Or that we still get the option to roll for hit points at level one. I hate being told "this is what you get, no option to generate stats/hit points for yourself." Streamlined systems are great, but I still want a good amount of randomness involved in character generation.

Other than that, the ancestry feats look okay. Still not a big fan of them, but at least I can build my traditional dwarf with poison resistance, axe and hammer proficiency, and hatred of goblinoids.

Static HP is the most common house rule in the history of D&D. To the extent that in dozens of tables since 2E in the 90s as a kid, I have never once seen a table enforce rolling HP. Because when you roll HP, Murphy's Law says you'll roll 1s and 2s and be screwed forever.

Finally just listing static HP for the classes is simply codifying reality.

From what I been reading this already sounds like it will be a very fun system to be playing

Deadmanwalking wrote:

From what's been revealed so far? No. You get one every 4 levels, and can only take a Heritage Feat at 1st.

Depending on how they set things up, you may never have to take one of the Dwarf ones if you're a Dwarf raised by humans, but you need to take them.

That's unfortunate, that means I'll need to remove/replace the ancestry feat system completely in my games just because I don't play Golarion.

Can I get a source for the every 4 levels? I seem to have missed where that was said?

Huh? Really? Do your Dwarves not commonly train with warhammers and axes and your Elves not live a long time and pick up skills? Because those are non-Heritage Ancestry Feats.

Now, you might want to ditch a few (the Elf anti-demon one, for example) but I doubt it'll be anywhere close to all of them.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Isn't the blog clear that you can only take Heritage feats at level 1?

Yes it is. That is irrelevant to what I asked though, since I was saying I don't want to have to take non-heritage feats at all, hoping that you aren't forced to take them after first level.

Well you are allotted a certain number of Ancestry Feat slots as you gain levels. So in a way yes you are forced to take more Ancestry feats that won't be able to be Heritage feats.

I realize that the Core rules are going to be more "Golarion" infused but I personally think it's quite probable that many of the non-heritage options will be generic enough that they will be suitable for most fantasy campaigns.

Hopefully some of the old racial (biology) traits will still be present in some form and are only enhanced by Ancestry Feats. At least that's what it sounded like from the more detailed Goblin entry...

I did hit point rolls but I had a rule. If you roll half or under, you get half-plus-one. Thus the minimum hit points a Barbarian would get is 7 (before Constitution bonuses), while the minimum hit points a Wizard would get is 4 (before Constitution bonuses).

Of course, I also tend to up the hit points of monsters in any event. And I'm definitely not allowing rolled stats in any of my games again... for Pathfinder 2, given the increased flexibility of stats, I'll likely even enforce the standard point build instead of 25-point builds I started doing with new Pathfinder games (I can easily boost monster stats to be equivalent in Pathfinder 1 through a +1 to every stat for all monsters and NPCs).

Maybe there will be options to upgrade earlier ancestry feats?

I'm guessing there will be Heritage feats which can be upgraded through later Ancestry feats?

Like Hardy, Hardier, Hardiest?

RumpinRufus wrote:

On hybrids:

Half-elves and half-orcs are 2 of the 4 most common PC races. Together they account for 15% of PCs. They are hugely popular, so trying to create overbroad rules that include half-elves and half-orcs under the same rules as "half-tengu-half-gnomes" and "half-dwarf-half-gripplis" is likely to end up very confusing and not intuitive for the many many players who want to play them.

I'm not saying generic hybridization rules shouldn't exist, just that having players scouring five different sections of the rulebook to create a half-elf is bad design.

Which is why i said they should leverage the ancestry feat mechanic already being developed to build them. You simply choose your 'blooded' feat as your 1st level ancestry feat, and it opens up all your follow-on ancestry feats to be selected from either parent. I mentioned possibly adding a minor bonus as well as the unlock to offset the loss of the primary ancestry's specialization.

Even with minor bonuses, and the added utility of being able to pick from two lists, it would still kind of suck to have to pay a feat just to play a half-elf/half-orc.

It would also mean they'd need to add an Orc ancestry in the core rulebook to make the half-orc work.

Very cool blogspot, I really liked it so far except for one little tiny thing, I'm not a fan of 1st level only feats, certainly I will prefer to not have that kind of restriction.

Another thing that I'm getting considering future books is that only 5 ancestry feats are going to be too few, could it be possible to have twice that? Like Ancestry feats every odd level?

Huh? Really? Do your Dwarves not commonly train with warhammers and axes and your Elves not live a long time and pick up skills? Because those are non-Heritage Ancestry Feats.

Long aged races picking up skills yes (though I just handled that by them being higher level), weapon proficiency no.

When I run a game in a region styled off indonesia and polynesia I don't want elves running around with longswords and dwarves with warhammers.

"Be stable. Be dependable. Be a dwarf!"

Made me think -

Be Pure! Be Vigilant! Behave!

Mayhap instead what this sets up is regionally-based heritage feat-chains.

To use the above example, instead one learns proficiency with harpoon, spear, blowgun and kris [or whatever weapon is used to represent a kris]. Picking up "Island Fisherman" as the background seems likely to come along with that setting.

Grovestrider wrote:

eddv wrote:

Name for me even a single iconic half-dwarf or half-gnome anywhere in fantasy and I'll bite here.

Obviously you haven't played in the Dark Sun campaign setting, otherwise you would know about the Mul.

Yeah... but no one every played them because Tolkein didn't write them.. :/

Muls were extremely popular with players during 2e Dark Sun. At least one of TSR's Dark Sun novel trilogies(?) had a mul as the (co-)protagonist.

Long aged races picking up skills yes (though I just handled that by them being higher level), weapon proficiency no.

When I run a game in a region styled off indonesia and polynesia I don't want elves running around with longswords and dwarves with warhammers.

Well, it sounds like the weapon choices are wrong then, but that's only two Feats down for Dwarves and one for Elves of those listed. You may need to pare that down more, but I strongly doubt you'll descend below the critical mass of 5 Feats per Ancestry.

CraziFuzzy wrote:

Grovestrider wrote:

eddv wrote:

Name for me even a single iconic half-dwarf or half-gnome anywhere in fantasy and I'll bite here.

Obviously you haven't played in the Dark Sun campaign setting, otherwise you would know about the Mul.

Yeah... but no one every played them because Tolkein didn't write them.. :/

Muls were extremely popular with players during 2e Dark Sun. At least one of TSR's Dark Sun novel trilogies(?) had a mul as the (co-)protagonist.

Yes they did. Plenty of people played them back when, in no small part because those burly chaps made awesome gladiators and sun-channelers.

" I don't channel 'positive' or 'negative' 'energy' punk ... I channel the Sun overhead. BUUURRRNNNN!!!!! *fwooosh!!* something fries like an bangers-n-mash breakfast platter

Well, it sounds like the weapon choices are wrong then, but that's only two Feats down for Dwarves and one for Elves of those listed. You may need to pare that down more, but I strongly doubt you'll descend below the critical mass of 5 Feats per Ancestry.

Actually hardy is the only dwarf feat I'd actually allow in my games so far, keen hearing and nimble is the only elf feats I'd allow, and I'd have to make Ancestral Longevity available to all long-lived ancestries.

So, wait a sec, do we have to spend some of our "feats" that we get as we level up our characters to get these "racial feats" or do we start off with one or two "racial feats" from the get go?

Actually hardy is the only dwarf feat I'd actually allow in my games so far, keen hearing and nimble is the only elf feats I'd allow, and I'd have to make Ancestral Longevity available to all long-lived ancestries.

Yeah, I pretty much got that...but that's only about half of the listed things you're paring down. That's almost certainly gonna leave you enough to work with once we have the full list.

So, wait a sec, do we have to spend some of our "feats" that we get as we level up our characters to get these "racial feats" or do we start off with one or two "racial feats" from the get go?

Start with 1 at character creation and then get 4 more (we think) feat slots dedicated to Ancestry feats as well level up.

Maybe I'm too kind of a GM, but I'd just let folks grab ancestry feats at level 1 that got them to their 1st Edition level of strength.

So, wait a sec, do we have to spend some of our "feats" that we get as we level up our characters to get these "racial feats" or do we start off with one or two "racial feats" from the get go?

There will be some ancestry feats as you level. I think it was mentioned in the level up blog.

So, wait a sec, do we have to spend some of our "feats" that we get as we level up our characters to get these "racial feats" or do we start off with one or two "racial feats" from the get go?

You start with one at 1st and get another at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th (those levels might be off, but probably not).

You get General Feats at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th (ditto).

You get Skills and Class Features every odd level.

You get a Class Feat and a Skill Feat every even level.

I am imagining the future Tiefling ancestral feats.

Now that I think about how this ancestry system works. I'm actually glad that Tieflings are not core.

Tieflings need their own book to truly have the space to be tieflings in all the ways that Pathfinder Tieflings rule. You gotta have those appearance and ability charts.

Let's drop the editing/word choice derail argument.