Playtest Thoughts: Week 1

Tuesday, November 26, 2013

Greetings from the playtest laboratory! We are one week in to the Advanced Class Guide Playtest, and we are already getting a lot of great feedback and playtest data. Every week from now until the playtest's end on December 17th, we are going to be giving you our thoughts on the state of the playtest and give you some hints of the direction we are taking some of these classes.

This being the first week, we are only just starting to adjust some class mechanics and look at making some shifts in how things work. Most of these will take a bit longer to make it to your table, but sometime in the next few weeks we are hoping to rerelease the playtest PDFs with all of our revisions incorporated into the classes. It is our hope to get some feedback on these revisions before the playtest window comes to a close.

So, without further delay, here are some of the changes we are considering or are in the process of implementing. Feel free to comment on these changes in the thread attached to this post, but any serious discussion should occur in the class thread for each individual class (located in the Class forum).

Arcanist

As mentioned on the boards, the arcanist is going through a serious round of redesign. While the core casting mechanic of this class is going to remain pretty much as it currently stands, the blood focus ability is being replaced by an arcane reservoir that the arcanist to call upon to create magical effects and tinker with the spells and effects of others. They can refuel this pool by consuming spell slots or even other magic items and spell effects. In essence, the arcanist is becoming the "hacker" of magic, capable of pulling it apart and putting it back together to accomplish their goals. We are hoping to rerelease the arcanist in the next few days.

Bloodrager

We are generally happy with the direction of this class, but it needs some tweaks. We are seriously contemplating giving the class its own spell list to help it better fulfill its role in the game. In addition, we are looking at pulling some of the more direct barbarian abilities to replace them with something a bit more in tune with the class. Refinement of the various bloodlines will be much of our focus, making sure they are in tune with the overall balance of the class.

Brawler

The brawler is getting a few revisions and tweaks in the coming weeks. The capstone ability of the class is going to be replaced with something far more interesting than the current ability (although we are not quite ready to show that off just yet). The knockout ability will gain a number of uses per day, scaling with level. We are also going to change up the brawlers weapon list, giving it all simple weapons, plus any weapon on the "close" weapon group from the fighter. Of course, you will be able to use all those weapons with the brawler's flurry ability.

Hunter

We are looking at a lot of different options for the hunter, the biggest of which is giving a boost to the hunter's animal companion. We really want to see the class working in tandem with its companion in a way that we just have not done with any other class. We are looking at buffing up the hunter's ranged capabilities as well. Expect to see a number of teamwork feats in the final book that work specifically with an animal companion as well. Of course we are looking at a few other issues as well, such as the restrictions on armor and shields and increasing the duration and use of the animal focus ability.

Investigator

The design team is looking to move this class a little bit away from the rogue, possibly by replacing sneak attack with an ability that is more in line with the theme of the class. We are also looking into changing the poison use ability to make it something that allows the investigator to identify poisons, their effects, and neutralize them. Finally, there are going to be more talents allowing them to use more of their skills as well as some new effects we are not quite ready to talk about just yet.

Shaman

Overall, we are pretty happy with the direction the shaman is taking, but there are some adjustments we are investigating. The first of which is changing the class to work off the druid spell list, as this fits the theme better than the witch or cleric list. In addition, we are looking into adding a bit more the hexes for each spirit and possibly adjusting how those hexes are used.

Skald

The biggest change on the horizon with the skald involves how the raging song is used in play, allowing characters to drop out of participating if they want. We are also looking at making the raging song work in tandem with other rage abilities in a limited way. In addition, we are thinking about adding a number of weapon proficiencies to the class to bring it a bit closer to its theme.

Slayer

We are looking at ways to make favored target a bit easier to use and a bit more versatile. We are also looking at bringing the class up to 6 skill ranks per level (it currently has 4 per level). Other than that, most of our upcoming revisions involve greatly expanding the number of talents that you can choose from, allowing you to build the slayer you want to play.

Swashbuckler

We are investigating ways for the class to get Weapon Finesse at an appropriate level and to work with Combat Expertise. In addition, we are looking at adding some deeds and increase the swashbucklers mobility during battle, allowing them to stand up without provoking an attack and charge without having to move in a straight line. We are still working on how those play with existing deeds and what changes would need to happen to get them to fit into the advancement scheme.

Warpriest

Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game.

Well, that about wraps up the playtest review for this week. We want to thank everyone who has taken the time to give us their thoughts and playtest reports. You are helping us make these classes great and we appreciate all the time you are spending giving us your feedback. Look for the revised arcanist in a blog post later this week and expect to see a revised version of the playtest document soon.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

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Tags: Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Playtest
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Count me as another that doesn't want to see the Investigator lose sneak attack. Poison use, though I'd be sad to see it go, falls more into what I'd consider an agent than an investigator. Identifying and neutralizing poisons fits, though I'm not sure how fair of a trade it is. Poison doesn't come up much in my games unless it is the PCs using it. Admittedly, I don't know how much it comes up in other people's games.

Liberty's Edge

I am all for taking steps away from the original classes to give each of them their own role without feeling like just a class mash-up. So far all of these sound like they are headed in the right direction and I look forward to seeing the evolution of these changes!

The only changes I'd like to see at this point are to the Swashbuckler. I think it would be better for the class if Parry deed didn't cost an AoO... it smacks of a "feat tax" to the character (forcing them to take Combat Reflexes or never be able to use it more than once a round); even more so when you attempt a Riposte immediately following. both of these already cost a Panache Point AND need a successful attack roll. This is based solely on conjecture though... I have yet to see this class in play.

Regardless, I'm glad that the feedback received has been helpful! Thanks again for all the hard work!


Ivan Rûski wrote:
Count me as another that doesn't want to see the Investigator lose sneak attack. Poison use, though I'd be sad to see it go, falls more into what I'd consider an agent than an investigator. Identifying and neutralizing poisons fits, though I'm not sure how fair of a trade it is. Poison doesn't come up much in my games unless it is the PCs using it. Admittedly, I don't know how much it comes up in other people's games.

More than happy personally to see sneak attack either in an archetype, or an archetype to get rid of it. That way everyone is happy?


Gotta say, While I think I understand the reasoning behind it, and I think it's valid, I don't like the fact that Advanced Class Guide class levels bar you from taking levels in the classes it's based on. I mean, with the exception of a few abilities (Sneak Attack comes to mind), abilities shared across the classes still don't stack for the most part. Again, I get why it was done, I'm just pointing out that I don't persoanlly feel it's a necessary limitation, especially considering the incentives most classes have for going full 20.


Matt Thomason wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:
Count me as another that doesn't want to see the Investigator lose sneak attack. Poison use, though I'd be sad to see it go, falls more into what I'd consider an agent than an investigator. Identifying and neutralizing poisons fits, though I'm not sure how fair of a trade it is. Poison doesn't come up much in my games unless it is the PCs using it. Admittedly, I don't know how much it comes up in other people's games.
More than happy personally to see sneak attack either in an archetype, or an archetype to get rid of it. That way everyone is happy?

I'd be fine with that.


Curious if "official updates" will always go at the top of the discussion threads? Like Jason did with the three updates to the Bloodrager. (Currently the only Advanced Class I'm concerned about.)


ciretose wrote:
Sounds great!

Sounds great except for the Skald :(

I hope they don't nerf the Investigator.


Have you done any playtests of the Skald, Zark? Seems like the ability to leave (and possibly join?) whenever would go a long way.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Those changes sound amazing, but of course we'll first have to see how they shake out in the first big update. I'm very much looking forward to it. :)


@Cheapy: I like Bards, I’ve played many Bards. I don’t need to playtest the Skald to see it is not for me nor what I have hoped for. Unless something extraordinary happens in the update, this class is not for me, which is cool. They can’t please us all.

I’ve dropped my interest in the Skald. I just notice the Shaman is getting Druid spells. Man I'm so happy.

All the classes (except for the Skald) is looking cool. Even the Hunter is kind of appealing even though I usually don’t play classes with pets.

So 9 out of 10 classes is very, very, very good work from the Devs. And the Warpriest is looking like it is heading exactly where I hope it would move. Warpriest, Bloodrager, Investigator, Swashbuckler, Slayer Shaman and Arcanist are the ones I'm really interested in. Especially Warpriest, Bloodrager, Investigator and Swashbuckler. If Slayer gets Trapfinding as a talent it might be my new favorite scout class. That or the Investigator (unless the Investigator is nerfed). Shaman looks like my new favorite full divine caster and Arcanist will finally let me play the full arcane caster that suits my style.

The fact that 7 or 8 of the classes seem to becoming classes that I really would like to play, is a good grade of what seems to be excellent work from the Devs.

Again: Shaman getting Druid spells, that is good news. It would be really cool if he could cast them spontaneously, but Druid spells with Hex is rock solid. :D


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AM BLOODRAGER AM HAPPY.


Thanks for the updates and taking our play test feedback into account. Anxiously awaiting the updated material!

Grand Lodge

So, is there going to be a second release of the playtest material with the updates, or will be be working mostly off of the sticky updates?


everything sounds good I investor losing sneak attack is OK with me I would love to see what else they can come up with. I Shaman using druid spell list makes sense. I one thing I would like to see is more fire arm option.


The chanegs seem interesting. I am awaiting the release of version 1.5 for the ACG


I can't wait for the spellhacker. I've been wanting one of those for years, ever since I envisioned a character in a story as having that sort of role. I just could never work out the mechanics of how it should look, game-wise.

Also, the idea of the Investigator negating poison is kind of cool.


Is there a reason there is an "alternate classes" restriction on these? The playtest guide states the restriction but doesn't explain why. Is it for balance reasons?

Silver Crusade

Does the Blessings arranged for the Warpriest? Earth domain are wronged deities (Nethys and Abadar or Iomedae) And 2 (Torag nad other)with one less blessing than the others deities.

But all the changes and directions are really good, when the doc will be ready?

Thanks for all!

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Just wondering if 1.5 of the playtest document will be out before the weekend. We are planning on doing some playtesting over the weekend, and would obviously prefer the latest and greatest version of the classes.


Aeshuura wrote:
So, is there going to be a second release of the playtest material with the updates, or will be be working mostly off of the sticky updates?

From Jason: "Sometime in the next few weeks we are hoping to rerelease the playtest PDFs with all of our revisions incorporated into the classes. It is our hope to get some feedback on these revisions before the playtest window comes to a close."

Grand Lodge

Daethor wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
So, is there going to be a second release of the playtest material with the updates, or will be be working mostly off of the sticky updates?

From Jason: "Sometime in the next few weeks we are hoping to rerelease the playtest PDFs with all of our revisions incorporated into the classes. It is our hope to get some feedback on these revisions before the playtest window comes to a close."

Thanks, Daethor! Was I just skimming too fast, or was that stated elsewhere?

EDIT: I guess I was reading too fast... :p

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I got excited when I saw the word Soon, and missed the text at the top of the blog...oops...

Edit: Paizo (ie.Jason), it would be good if you would adjust the sticky in the offical threads for those who will be/are playtesting using PFS. I am just about to create a Shaman, and the change of spell list could make a reasonable difference.


Why are we looking at giving swashbuckler, who already seems better than the other classes, combat expertise, and not the brawler?


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Davick wrote:
Why are we looking at giving swashbuckler, who already seems better than the other classes, combat expertise, and not the brawler?

That'd be because Swashbuckler is one of the worst of the classes, mechanically (Dat Flavor though). Brawler needs the love too, admittedly, but Swashbuckler suffers from rather insulting Feat Tax just to use its class features. That's...bad design, all around, and I'm glad to hear it's up for change.


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You must be reading a different swashbuckler than I.


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Cheapy wrote:
You must be reading a different swashbuckler than I.

I'm reading the one that can't fulfill the tropes promised by its name, which one got released to you?

I realize we have different priorities, Cheapy, but just about everyone responds better to reasoned debate rather than passive-aggressive sniping. As an added bonus, I don't mind theoretical answers so you don't even have to call up the gaming group for an emergency playtest to prove me wrong - just show me abilities and numbers on how Swashbuckler manages to be a stylistic, mobile combatant with flair and elan.

Liberty's Edge

Just now seeing the changes during this first week after playtest. I like what is being proposed for the Arcanist as spellcasters are among my favorite classes. The changes to the other classes are exciting to hear about. That being said I love the pathfinder game and I know that you will use the feedback to give us the best bang for out bucks! I look forward to being impressed.


I like the positive vibe this update has and the proposed changes sound good. I would still like to see the warpriest get it's own spell list, with stuff like heroism and good hope on it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Thanks for the information update most of it looks awesome!! Still holding my breath that Shaman will make a more dramatic change in the Spirits as THE defining class feature direction.


Tels wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Tels wrote:
Tirisfal wrote:
I still think that the Investigator should lose sneak attack in exchange for an ability that let's you observe your enemy, and make studied attacks :)
Sounds like you want the slayer's Favored Target.
Or a variant of Assassin's Death Attack.
That's what I'm thinking - observe the target for a turn or two, and then add your inspiration bonus to your attack roll.

They already can... -_-

Investigator wrote:
Inspiration can also be used on attack rolls and saving throws, though at the cost of expending two uses of inspiration from the investigator’s pool. In the case of saving throws, using inspiration is an immediate action rather than a free action.

They can also select the following talents:

Amazing Inspiration (Ex): When using inspiration, the investigator rolls a d8 instead of d6. At 20th level, the investigator rolls 2d8 and adds both dice to the result. An investigator must be at least 7th level to select this investigator talent.

Combat Inspiration (Ex): When an investigator uses inspiration on an attack roll or saving throw, he expends one use of inspiration instead of two. An investigator must be at least 9th level to select this investigator talent.

That's groovy, but it isn't what I want. I've already read the book, so repeating it back to me with sarcastic emoticons isn't really helping.

I want to see a combat mechanic that can effectively replace Sneak Attack, without eliminating the Investigator's prowess in battle.

Like the Assassin's Death Attack, it'd be cool to observe your target for a turn or two before striking. If you waited the extra turn, you could use an investigator point to add punch to your attack to stagger, disable, or nauseate the foe. I guess that could be an investigator talent in the end, but maybe if it was expanded enough, it could prove to be an interesting ability.

As I've said before, I'm not the guy you want writing mechanics for a class, so I'm having trouble trying to convert my fluff into crunch, but I hope I'm getting the basic idea across.

Anyway, this is all wildly off topic and belongs in the Investigator discussion thread.


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I love it, all the changes are moving in a good direction, and I see direct impact from discussions taking place in each class's thread!

THE SYSTEM WORKS!

Great job Paizo, I'm excited to see where it goes from here!


I like the sound of the Investigator getting ability to not identify poisons but neutralize them hopefully for allies as well as himself.

I am very happy about the shaman getting the druid spell list.

Like the ideas for the swashbuckler though I still think it needs 6+int skill points.

I actually liked the Brawler but it does need some tweaking.

I can't wait to see what they do for the warpriest.

I still would like the hunter to get fighter HD and base attack bonus. I have been wanting a animal companion class that is completely martial based with super natural abilities.

I wish the slayer class was more monster slayer then assassin. I would love if it got more specialized favored enemy and some sneak attack against it's favored enemy. plus additional abilities to make it more effective against it's hated foe. So we could have a giant slayer, dragon slayer, undead slayer, etc. without any nature themed abilities, animal companion, and spells.

I am not big on the bloodrager but I would like to see what they will get.

I really like the sound of the arcanist now.

I still feal that the skald is the least interesting, I hope they will change my mind.


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Really I must admit, when I heard they were doing an advanced class guide, I was hoping it would be the perfect addition to the advanced race guide. By this I mean, I was hoping that it would be CP (class points) and that you could build your own class from scratch and have it be just as balanced as the original classes. Guess that will have to remain a dream.


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Dempthal wrote:
Really I must admit, when I heard they were doing an advanced class guide, I was hoping it would be the perfect addition to the advanced race guide. By this I mean, I was hoping that it would be CP (class points) and that you could build your own class from scratch and have it be just as balanced as the original classes. Guess that will have to remain a dream.

The designers have said in multiple places that a CP idea just won't work, building a class is an art, not a science, and it really can't be smooshed into a pick-and-mix design system


Dempthal wrote:
Really I must admit, when I heard they were doing an advanced class guide, I was hoping it would be the perfect addition to the advanced race guide. By this I mean, I was hoping that it would be CP (class points) and that you could build your own class from scratch and have it be just as balanced as the original classes. Guess that will have to remain a dream.

Y'know, SKR did point out that this playtest is just a fraction of the book. Such a Class Point system might still be released.

...Though with that being said creating such a system and keeping it interesting, comprehensible, and usable would be a thorny and painful endeavor and I have no confidence that living human beings could accomplish it.


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Once they include a class builder, it's munchkin season in PFS. Not going to happen. They are instead giving insight into how they design classes and tips to build your own.


Kairos Dawnfury wrote:
Once they include a class builder, it's munchkin season in PFS. Not going to happen. They are instead giving insight into how they design classes and tips to build your own.

This word, I see it used a lot around here. Are folks quite aware of how insulting, derogatory, and generally inaccurate it is? Because I have to say that I'm getting rather vexed.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Prince of Knives wrote:
Kairos Dawnfury wrote:
Once they include a class builder, it's munchkin season in PFS. Not going to happen. They are instead giving insight into how they design classes and tips to build your own.
This word, I see it used a lot around here. Are folks quite aware of how insulting, derogatory, and generally inaccurate it is? Because I have to say that I'm getting rather vexed.

Why is it so insulting and derogatory? I love that game... ;)

Grand Lodge

It has been said that there will not be a CP system, but a whole chapter will be dedicated to the philosophies and steps that go into creating a new class, archetype, or prestige class... At least that was my understanding.


Prince of Knives wrote:
Kairos Dawnfury wrote:
Once they include a class builder, it's munchkin season in PFS. Not going to happen. They are instead giving insight into how they design classes and tips to build your own.
This word, I see it used a lot around here. Are folks quite aware of how insulting, derogatory, and generally inaccurate it is? Because I have to say that I'm getting rather vexed.

Were aware. We just like to insult and deride munchkins. As to inaccuracy, a term cannot be inaccurate, only its usage, which differs with context.


Very happy to see most of these changes.

I'm currently running a Slayer in a PbP - I definitely agree they need 6 skill points a level to make them able to use the broad range of abilities Favored Target gives them...

And just a small call to replace the name of Shaman's Hexes with something else...


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Very happy to see most of these changes.

I'm currently running a Slayer in a PbP - I definitely agree they need 6 skill points a level to make them able to use the broad range of abilities Favored Target gives them...

And just a small call to replace the name of Shaman's Hexes with something else...

To me, Shamans Curse, Witches Hex, and Tricksters Jinx.


Aeshuura wrote:
Daethor wrote:
Aeshuura wrote:
So, is there going to be a second release of the playtest material with the updates, or will be be working mostly off of the sticky updates?

From Jason: "Sometime in the next few weeks we are hoping to rerelease the playtest PDFs with all of our revisions incorporated into the classes. It is our hope to get some feedback on these revisions before the playtest window comes to a close."

Thanks, Daethor! Was I just skimming too fast, or was that stated elsewhere?

EDIT: I guess I was reading too fast... :p

No worries! It happens to everyone :)

Grand Lodge

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I love you, Paizo. Just wanted to let you know.


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Quote:

Swashbuckler

We are investigating ways for the class to get Weapon Finesse at an appropriate level

After much consideration I think I may finally have obtained a solution. Watch this:

Quote:
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

It took a lot of effort to solve this extremely difficult problem but I hope that helped clear things up.


And then Roberta Yang suddenly reappeared from the ether and solved all of our problems. =p


Ryuko wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:
Kairos Dawnfury wrote:
Once they include a class builder, it's munchkin season in PFS. Not going to happen. They are instead giving insight into how they design classes and tips to build your own.
This word, I see it used a lot around here. Are folks quite aware of how insulting, derogatory, and generally inaccurate it is? Because I have to say that I'm getting rather vexed.
Were aware. We just like to insult and deride munchkins. As to inaccuracy, a term cannot be inaccurate, only its usage, which differs with context.

You're inaccurate even with regards to context.


I'm happy that Shamans are getting Druid spells, but I hope some additional spells are added to their spells available. There are many highly Shamanic spells that aren't on the Druid spell list, including:

Planar Binding/Ally
Commune
Divination
Contact Other Plane
See Invisibility (to be able to see spirits)
Protection/Magic Circle
Banishment
Dismissal

etc.


@Roberta Yang: man I laughed


Roberta Yang wrote:
Quote:

Swashbuckler

We are investigating ways for the class to get Weapon Finesse at an appropriate level

After much consideration I think I may finally have obtained a solution. Watch this:

Quote:
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
It took a lot of effort to solve this extremely difficult problem but I hope that helped clear things up.

I think they're hoping to avoid making the Swashbuckler an obvious 'dip class.'

Didn't stop them with the Warpriest, mind, but I don't claim to know what the thinking is with that one at all.

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