Dreadfulness in Dunwich PF1e+ (Inactive)

Game Master DeJoker

Your changes actually shifted the class back to being a sub-class or alternate version of the Rogue Class, where mine had been a multiclass of Rogue/Ranger. However, I want to say I like this version even better, granted it is not as combat centric, which you also stated you wanted, but I think it has an even stronger theme of a mundane woodsy rogue class. The only thing that they have that is even minorly supernatural is Attuned Terrain but that is not them using magic just appeasing the spirits.

Oh your available Weapon Proficiency changed, so please look at that as you are back to being much more limited although I did change the weapons to be more woodsy oriented and I think this gives you suitable versatility. If you need a slightly different aesthetic for the Machete call it a Light Scimitar but use the Machete stats.

Next one of things I did was, instead of using your Saves which were very lower level heavy, modify your Saves to be a bit more balanced. This allowed me to have the reduction in your Reflex Saves pay for the increase in your Fort and Will Saves as you obviously needed the extra Feat.

Also, to partially compensate for the 2 point reduction to Skills which I am keeping (but did not fully agree with), I have created a skill based version of Wild Empathy. This does two things, one it takes the Class only base Rank and shifts it to where it ought to be, aka into a skill, and gives you an extra mandatory skill that uses a Skill Point each level. Next I plan to have your Stride (now called Fluidity) also be skill based. However that one will not automatically get skill points alloted to it and will be up to you to do if you want the benefits. So what this will actually mean (or be) is a simple expansion of the Skill Unlock ability, which you will be acquiring for that specific skill (aka Acrobatics). Also, if you look, you get Outrider Fluidity at 10th-Level and then Improved Fluidity at 15th-Level which corresponds to the Skill Unlock ranks required to use these abilities. This then allowed me to creatively add in those other abilities (Improved Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge) you were asking for but did not have enough extra Feats to acquire. Once I have them fully written up I am sure you will fully understand but I wanted you to at least be aware of where I am going with this so you can allocate your beginning skill points accordingly. Aka you should probably dedicate 1 of your Skill points to Acrobatics at each level but you are not required to.

Final Note: All of these changes allow me to incorporate what you asked for ability wise while keeping things balanced, there is just enough tweak down to allow for that 20th-Level Danger Sense which I thought was a more complete and appropriate conclusion to that ability.

You dropped shield, you tricky...

I'm still lobbying for Light Martial Weapons. Firstly, they probably can't from some form of standing militia or army (think special forces), they are not rural by limitation, it's by choice and/or assignment. I suppose they would typically have some tie back to some official command.

Also, along the lines of fluidity... the civilizations for which they are outriders can be of various cultures or surrounded by various terrains.

In the mountains a light hammer might be common, in an Indo-Asian type culture/region, kurki. Obviously, anyone can use any weapons as with Simple Weapons.

The reason it's "light" and not all martial is because of packing it traveling light, using it two-weapon (no shield), stealth, etc...

If you're really dead set against it... it's your game.

Lastly, Save Progression there is an "official/guideline" (not sure from who) medium save progression out there that starts at +1 and ends at +9, which is meant to be midway. I was also concerned about +2/+2/+2 at Level 1. 1) was following your lead and 2) didn't see it until after.

I'm messing with Hero Lab, creating a custom class, race, skills, etc... kinda fun.

In general, I'm happy to play this class in this campaign!

Now I grant you that straight mathematics says the average between a straight 8 and a straight 12 is a 10 actually one higher than a 9 but the average of two 0 to 6s and one 2 to 12 is 4.43 and the average of the 1 to 8 is 4.5 so a pretty close wash.

Still let us look a bit further as there is more than one way to skin a cat. Taking a 0 to 6 to a 2 to 8 twice along with taking the 2 to 12 to a -2 to 8 and then compare it with the 1 to 8 you will find that the transition is spread out but still mostly generous on the low end where it is needed the most. Comparing it at each level, you benefit at levels 1 to 5, 8, 11, 14, and 17 while detrimenting at levels 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19. So benefitting at 9 levels mostly on the low end and deterimenting at 7 levels nearly all on the high end.

Now let us look at taking the 2 to 8 and simply subtracting 1 at level 1 and see that we get a 1 to 7 and that the 1 to 8 thus benefits at levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20 or basically at 2nd-level and every 3 levels there after thus spreading out the benefits applied to the 2 to 8 evenly over the levels.

Now let us look at taking the 2 to 12 down to a 1 to 8. We subtract 1 at 1st-Level (apply it upstream) then we have to subtract 1 at 4th-Level (apply it upstream) meaning we add 1 point to the save at 5th-Level only, then subtract 1 at 8th-Level (apply it upstream) having to add 1 point to the saves at 9th-Level and 11th-Level only, then we subtract 1 at 16th-Level (apply it upstream) and finally add 1 at 17th-Level only. Thus it appears that the logical place for the downgrade is not 4, 8, and 16 but 4.5, 8.5, and 16.5 with that minor anomoly at 11.5.

The last comparison would be what does averaging the current saves look like well: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8 which still caps out at 8 and not 9 and is not far from what I presented which is a more even flow. Still with this final examination a more even flow of these numbers might be 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8 but this is really not that much different than the 1 to 8 I presented originally.

Still do not be mistaken, while numerically this is a benefit game-play on the other hand it is a detriment and to me that spells balance and thus the reason I was willing to call it a wash. Basically we are doing a minor improvement (+1) to two Saves while spreading out -1 to -4 to another Save.

If it helps any, I do number crunching like this for a living, as well as having done it for numerous years in game designing. So I think the numbers I presented (aka 1 to 8) are much better balanced than the 1 to 9. When applied to 2 versus 1 Save. I mean the major benefit to this is you do not have a bad save, but yeah you do not have any great saves either but those are not really as noticed until the upper levels where you have numerous ways of compensating for it.

Now we could anaylze the -2 to 8 and see how that benefitted from going to a 1 to 8 but I am pretty sure you can see it benefits a lot which is why I am only outlining the balance of taking the 2 to 12 to a 1 to 8 spread out over the levels.

Simple Weapons
Bola
Chakram
Machete
Scimitar

Short Bow
Short Composite Bow

Now you stated you want the expanded weapons. So I looked into what would happen if your Rogue took a single level in Ranger -- first the most obvious is you would lose all the benefits of obtaining that 20th-level. However you would also gain several other things that would greatly improve the concept up front and at the lower levels. So I have waded through this balance to figure out how this all would stack up and still allow you those 20th-Level abilities which is the whole purpose of single classing as opposed to multiclassing.

So the additional 1d10 Hit Points at 2nd-Level is completely insignificant as by 20th-Level even if you rolled a 10 it would be next to meaningless.

Next the BaB bonus is extremely minor as well and by 20th-Level a complete wash as you would still be a +15/+10/+5 so nothing really gained there.

However you would gain significantly in your Saves Fort 0 to 8, Reflex 2 to 13, and Will still 0 to 6 -- so converting to my 1 to 8 for all three Saves gives you a little bit more on the negative side.

Further one level of Ranger adds the following Proficiency and Features:

Martial Weapons
Medium Armor
Shields
2nd-Level Favored Enemy I
2nd-Level Track
2nd-Level Wild Empathy

Now this is where it got really interesting, and I had to definitely step back and re-analyze this to see how it effects the over all character concept and whether the other things we did might compensate and allow those 20th-level abilities back into the mix.

Now this might seem simple, but we are still looking at basically making this a Rogue Class that is not overly focussed on combat prowess and the 20th-Level Features are not insignificant. Still I do not want to short-change the class either. So here is what I have settled on and please, as you have, give me your feedback.

Okay so with that said you can look at the Outrider Class to see the final outcome but to make it easier I added back in Martial Light Weapons and Shield and the 20th-Level Features and all the other features already covered and additionally Endurance (which you had wanted and I agree fits) and finally Hide in Plain Sight which is a rather minor addition due to its dependencies but it is all that class had room for at that point and was a much needed filler as well.

I just wanted to represent the self-sufficient nature of the role, medium saves across the board... Whatever that is in this game, I'm fine with it.

Players are always ultimately at the mercy of the DM. If one does not accept that, they can drive themselves crazy.

A +1 here or there, nothing for me to fret about.

As to Light Martial Weapons and Shield (and the balancing stuff), thank you.

I think Attuned Terrain offers great flexibility, I'm not sure if it's over powered. The Knowledge should be Knowledge (Nature, Dungeoneering, Planes) depending on the terrain. But, you're not retraining your skills, so it gets hinky.

Attunement, the process might be too cumbersome on gameplay as the week (or even 3 days) could be torturously long... or hand waived if the game fast forwards. I get why it's there... I think. So that you don't level up, blink and mind-wipe and download another terrain.

Maybe let them add terrains? Without the +2/+4/+6 Ranger progression. Or let them add them through the Favored Terrain Rogue Talent? Perhaps they add them at the same time as they get Fluidity/Improved Fluidity (and skip the signature skill unlock, improved earlier features stuff)?

I can imagine a place where to one or two directions there are mountains, at the base of the mountains there might be jungle in one direct... water in the other. As they advance, they can handle more direction or simple move further from home (the out in Outrider)?

Is there any synergy with the Rogue Talent, Favored Terrain?

Not arguing, just putting it out there from a game design perspective. I can play as-is.

Fluidity is nice too! It's like a Woodland Stride for whatever terrain you're into (attuned to). But, it focuses on Acrobatics which works great for my character, a Grippli. But, also steers?

Someone might want a more strength focused Outrider, etc... Like I said, I'm OK with it. Just a thought.

Also, giving access to other features through it (albeit at higher levels) is a great idea (game design) but might be OP for typical Pathfinder.

I find it interesting that you went with a more aquatic Grippli than Core. You sorta doubled down on it. I like it as a nod to the amphibious nature.

I see verbiage regarding Class Skills, but typically that doesn't appear in Race entries. More proofreading than anything else.

What I might want is an Alternate Racial trait... Strider: Some Gripplis favor movement over stealth, they have +10 to their land speed. Replaces Camouflage.

Is there any synergy with the Rogue Talent, Favored Terrain?

Thanks for this feed back, to which I have made a couple of adjustments, first I reduced the consecutive days to just 3 because you still start with a DC of 20 making getting 3 consecutive days to probably take a few extra days.

Then I expanded it to include adding additional Attuned Terrains by using Favored Terrains. However, the difference is while you can get a Favored Terrain you cannot apply it if you have not Attuned yourself to that Terrain which means you cannot just pick a random terrain and suddenly be attuned to it. However, you can acquire an extra slot (so-to-speak) to which you can add an additional terrain to those you have successfully Attuned to.

If you (or anyone reading this) sees any other issues please speak up. As I find multiple inputs help to make the best result.

Someone might want a more strength focused Outrider, etc... Like I said, I'm OK with it. Just a thought.

Okay that is a good observation, but that is like saying someone might want at a Strength based Rogue where most of their abilties cater to Dexterity. Further the ability to effortlessly move through terrain I cannot see being anything but Dexterity based aka Acrobatical ability. So again while a good observation, I think the basics of Fluidity without being supernatural would be based on the Acrobatics(Dexterity) Skill.

Well that would be true if we did not eliminate some of the lower level features to allow for a balance of those upper level features. So let us look at what we are discarding: Medium Armor, Martial Weapons (One-Handed, Two-Handed, and Ranged), that slightly extra Attribute Save as you pointed out (yes it was on purpose), the slightly increased BAB, Favored Enemy I, and that somewhat insignificant 1d10 Hit Points at 2nd-Level. Now granted, some of that I used to balance out some of the low level Features but they also helped to balance out some of those Higher Level Features.

So let us recap -- Rogue 1st through 20th-level with elements of a Ranger 1st-level tossed in.

First we removed Finesse Training I (1st-level) and II (3rd-level) to grant them Outrider Companion at 4th-level. That is a slight negative adjustment. This was needed to add in Rogue(Pet Trainer).

We replaced Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge with Scout Charge and Skirmisher. This was needed to add in Rogue(Scout).

This means before we even added in the Ranger 1st-Level we already have a strong Rogue-Ranger theme and strong themes do get a benefit due to them having such a strong theme.

Now a Rogue usually gets 3 Features at 1st-Level so we take that Ranger Track Feature and replace the now missing Finesse Training I.

You suggested and I concurred that we then replaced the Rogue's 2nd-Level Rogue Talent with the Ranger Wild Empathy which I did in the form of Animal Knack which also helped to compensate for that extra negative to skill points that Pet Trainer applied but in a manner that was in sync with Pet Trainer and was balanced. Thus improving on the Theme even more.

Now at 3rd-Level we added in the Ranger Endurance Feature, a rather IMO minor feature all-things-considered, but still quite thematic and we did this by putting it into the missing Rogue slot that was created by removing Finesse Training II.

Now you suggested dropping Debilitating Injury the Rogue 4th-Level feature which I concur did not fit the new Theme and so we put the Outrider Companion into that now open slot.

Next we replace the 5th-Level Rogue feature Rogue Edge with Uncanny Dodge thus reacquiring that Feature but at one level up from before.

Now at 7th-Level we add in the Attuned Terrain feature, which replaces one of those extra feature slots we created.

However it should probably be noted that Attuned Terrain is a concept that I use to simply replace the concept of Favored Terrain regardless of what class has it. To me Favored Terrain for all its benefits is an extremely difficult to implement Story Teller element. That is without skewing a story to favor the class with that feature. So I implemented a means to make it a might more flexible. Sure it can be hand-waved if we skip forward in time, but it can also be an issue if we cannot just skip forward in time. Thus the Story is unaffected, but the character may have to lose that ability for a while due to them not being in their favored terrain but eventually they can adjust that if they so desire, with the full understanding that they may suffer the same issue when they return to their previous terrain. However, in the grand scheme of the Story it still allows the Story Teller to not have to tailor things to a specific feature as that feature can eventually be adapted should the Story end up taking place in a totally different terrain for an extended period of time and it becomes a player's choice to have their character adapt or not adapt. Further I have done this with a few other Features that are equally problematic.

Next stop 10th-Level where we replace the Rogue Edge with Outrider Fluidity which is limited to the character's Attuned Terrain (aka Favored Terrain). A concept that we acquired from the Ranger Class 7th-Level feature Woodland Stride but made it less supernatural in origin. Further while it replaces Rogue Edge it does not it simply locks Rogue Edge into being applied to Acrobatics while also just simply expanding upon the Skill Unlock feature for Acrobatics.

Next stop 15th-Level where we replace the Rogue Edge with Improved Fluidity which is a Skill based version of Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion both part of the heavily themed nature of this class and covered by some of the things we put aside but have not used yet. It also is basically expanding the Skill Lock aspects of Acrobatics.

Next stop 17th-Level where we add Hide in Plain Sight acquired from the Ranger but made less supernatural by requiring 15 Ranks in Stealth and basically expanding the Skill Unlock feature of Stealth and restricting it to only Attuned Terrains giving it just a smidge of a supernatural boost. Granted we do not necessarily give them that Skill Unlock feature but by 17th-Level if a Stealth based character has not taken that as a Rogue Talent that is on the player.

Last stop 20th-Level where we exchange Master Strike for Master Talent and lose the final Rogue Edge which was used to pay for a previous feature and add that Danger Sense +7 a mere +1 as the cherry on the top.

If you thoroughly review all these changes to the Rogue Class to incorporate a stronger Rogue-Ranger theme with those minor elements we pulled from the Ranger I think you will see that this class is not even close to being OP and might be stat for stat a bit UP but very strongly themed making it appear more powerful than it actually is.

Note the fully final balance of this Class I have to attribute to your keen eye and feedback otherwise while I would have been close I would have on my own fallen a bit short -- in retrospect that is -- which is to say I really like this class due to its very strong theme.

Now was the +8 and +4 to Swim intentional, not really, but the +8 is simply due to having a Swim Speed as everything (whether outwardly noted or not) gets that bonus. As for the +4 from Aquatic Glide that technically only applies to Aquatic Impediments but I would not give Aquatic Glide to something that did not have a Swim Speed and as such the only time they would be using Aquatic Glide would be with impediments as they never need to make a check when there are no impediments. Thus those with this ability move even more effectively through water than just those with a Swim Speed which seems appropriate.

Well I only sort-of double downed upon it because frankly the Grippli were short change or way under powered. Keep in mind that what I do is make sure that every, and I mean every, race is balanced against every other race. No race has more than 6 Feats (aka Race Traits) in fact I had to add a few detriments to the Elf and Dwarf class to reign them in as of all the races those two races always out shined all the other races - although many players mistakenly take Human as they get that generic extra Feat which is only really equivalent to 1.5 Feats and the Dwarf and Elf got way more fixed Feats than that initially.

Further the skill stuff which I added to the Grippli can be found in other races so the Skill aspect is there. Granted as previously stated if a race is given a Climb Speed or a Swim Speed or a Fly Speed they rarely overtly denote that they get that +8 Racial Bonus to the skills associated with that as it is simply understood, where I make it explicit to inform the player of that semi-hidden guideline. Further Aquatic Glide is simply a reskinned version of I think Swamp Stride or some other Racial Feature so those skills were already denoted as well.

Lastly if you wish to take the Alternate Racial Trait Strider by all means do so -- just let me know so I can update my information and just be sure to add it into your character sheet.

Lastly I concur this was quite enjoyable, I rarely get feedback from players during one of these sessions and I found your feedback quite helpful.

https://michaeliantorno.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/

Which is what Oceanshieldwolf used in his link then once you have that URL you need to do the following replace { with [ and } with ]

{url=https://michaeliantorno.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/}{b}Elephant in the Room{/b}{/url}

Now you do not have to use Bold {b} {/b} but it helps make the link you want someone to click on stand out a bit more and is what Oceanshieldwolf did as well.

Now if you have a Feat Progression that you are looking for that you feel is too costly, or has unnecessary "taxes" as you put it. Then bring that to my attention and I will examine it. Because frankly I agree, some of the prerequisites for some Feats are outright ridiculous based on what you are getting for them when you get them. However, I look at it more in the sense of, what is the theme you are striving for as I am okay with giving theme bonus so-to-speak. Now if all you are striving for is just a form of min/maxing, that I cannot really help much with.

Now while I met players that knew how to truly min/max the heck out of PF1e and create a character that was a monster when it came to combat, I also noticed that the character had virtually no personality and thus not much at all to role play as they were way too focussed on roll playing.

Note I am not by any means claiming you are intending to do any of that, all I am doing is trying to help you understand me so that perhaps together we can build you a fully dimensional character that does all (or at least most of) that which you want it to do as well as be something you can also sink your teeth fully into when it comes to role playing.