|Albion, The Eye|
|William the Destroyer|
Okay still awaiting Salaha's response and hoping they are okay.
Still, should I not get a response by tomorrow evening I will move things forward and deal with the Snapper issue when Salaha returns, and again here is hoping they are okay and will return soon.
Hopefully they were not in the path of that recent Hurricane and suffering in its aftermath and/or dealing with it in some way.
Hi and thanks for considering this concept!
I've been thinking it over and considering some house rules and think it can work.
- Pet Trainer Archetype (Giant Gecko mount)
- Scout Archetype
These archetypes can co-exist, as far as I can tell.
He's all about mobility.
- composite shortbow, 1d4 (add STR/MWK)
- light cold iron scimitar, 1d4 (add MWK)
Over time, his damage will scale from sneak attack.
Question, when do you do that x5 for Masterwork? Before or after stuff like special material or adding composite STR?
Thematically, would be great to have Knowledge Nature (maybe instead of Handle Animals/Animals) and Survival (can probably get it through a trait).
I do usually dip into a martial class, just to toughen a rogue up. But, I may not.
I see him as an outrider of sorts, venturing forth into the inhospitable non-Grippli world.
He himself is optimistic and probably NG.
I don't want you to go to any inordinate effort though, if it doesn't work... just say so.
Out on a limb, I suppose...
I think much of the back and forth regarding scarcity and such seems to stem from one's preference of prioritizing "mechanics" (strategy focused) vs. prioritizing "story" (role-play focused).
Many games hand-waive ammo, reasonable gear, some terrain, etc... so that typically brings characters to deal with "encounters" which are combat or less so social combat. These scripted enounters are the critical elements of the story.
The getting from encounter A to encounter B isn't emphasized unless you had to make/take some combat action (social or physical) to unlock something... acquire a ship, negotiate passage, buy horses, etc... but, after you've satisfied that... it's easy peasy (narration or dialogue) until the next scripted encounter.
Obviously random encounters rear their heads from time to time. And, that's cool.
Now, there may be whole modules or series of modules based on scarcity and hardship and preparedness (different levels of) but, that's not what most folks expect.
I think we're all learning and we're all coming from different preferences and perspectives.
PS: That said, I really stuck my foot in my mouth asking for an archer, didn't I? LOL
Djack Nymball asked: When do you do that x5 for Masterwork? Before or after stuff like special material or adding composite STR?
Special Materials and Composite Str Bows come first. Basically look at it this way everything that has to do with the weapon must be part of the Masterworking so you think about the item and go, hey is this part of the item as its being made or something I attach to it afterwards.
Also keep in mind that Masterwork does more than just add bonuses To Hit and Damage they can add positive features or remove negative features from an object.
For instance, the Masterwork Backpack follows my guidelines for Masterworking and thus is considerably cheaper but also keep in mind these are mundane enchances not magical ones. So they do have their limitations.
Djack Nymball if you check out the guidelines for Druid Companions the Giant Gecko at 1st-Level is Small, upon getting to 4th-Level it becomes Medium (and your character being small can then ride it) then at 7th-Level it becomes Large.
Note I had to work this out for the Druid as well so I will post the adjusted and expanded scaling guidelines within the Campaign tab. The original guidelines were basically broken as all that governs scaling a creature's size were very inconsistently and unsmoothly being applied.
Also I found losing Trapfinding and Danger Sense for this Animal Companion feature (a feature which is outside the regular official Guidelines) was a bit too weak as well as not fitting the flavor of your Scout Pet Trainer (or just a Rogue Pet Trainer for that matter) that you are requesting. As such this Animal Companion Feature will replace Finesse Training I and Finesse Training II instead. These abilities you can basically pick up via Feats if you so choose. I will finish examining the rest of the Balance and Theme of the Rogue Pet Trainer Archetype as while I am basically okay with the 2 Class Skill swamps I am not sure about the 2 point Skill Reduction as I am not per se seeing anything that would warrant that where it is conceptually themed to do so. However, I did encounter something that might be applicable that follows the Pet Trainer theme to compensate for that but I want more time to think it over in more detail.
Next this Animal Companion is much more mundane in flavor than what the Druid/Ranger get. So as they state it loses Share Spell but I also feel that it should lose Link as both of those are rather supernatural in concept. As such I will examine it even closer to figure out how to balance that all out. If you have any thoughts please share them, otherwise I will present the adjustments to you once I have completed them for your approval. Keep in mind, I will be doing my best to incorporate the flavor while keeping it generic.
I will also post the Grippli Race information as soon as I make sure its balanced against the other Races.
Oh and you should figure out what Tricks you plan to teach your Gecko as you can teach it up to 9 Tricks per the Handle Animals skill.
Djack Nymball if you check out the guidelines for Druid Companions the Giant Gecko at 1st-Level is Small, upon getting to 4th-Level it becomes Medium (and your character being small can then ride it) then at 7th-Level it becomes Large.
I believe that's a mistake in the Druid Companion Table, as in Bestiary 3 - Giant Geckos are Size M and 2 HD.
Also, if someone picks a horse, would they becomes huge, gargantuan, etc? I think they would just become a more powerful/capable horses.
From the SRD, Most animal companions increase in size when their druid reaches 4th or 7th level, depending on the companion.
I read this as for the ones that are magical or really big as an adult and acquired as infants or have massive HD (dinosaurs and such). In which case they are starting them small and scaling them with the Druid.
I feel a mount/steed or adult size... has stopped growing. Like a horse, pony, or whatever else a human or halfling & goblin (small characters) would normally ride.
Also I found losing Trapfinding and Danger Sense for this Animal Companion feature (a feature which is outside the regular official Guidelines) was a bit too weak as well as not fitting the flavor of your Scout Pet Trainer (or just a Rogue Pet Trainer for that matter) that you are requesting.
As such this Animal Companion Feature will replace Finesse Training I and Finesse Training II instead. These abilities you can basically pick up via Feats if you so choose.
By this do you mean the Specific Weapon aspect (Dex to Damage) at levels 3 and 11? Or are you taking away Weapon Finesse completely?
That's a biggie as it takes away +5 damage every hit. I suppose I can try Weapon Focus (Scimitar) and Slashing Grace with a MWK Scimitar and the Light quality.
I will finish examining the rest of the Balance and Theme of the Rogue Pet Trainer Archetype as while I am basically okay with the 2 Class Skill swamps...
I like the slip :)
Next this Animal Companion is much more mundane in flavor than what the Druid/Ranger get. So as they state it loses Share Spell but I also feel that it should lose Link as both of those are rather supernatural in concept. As such I will examine it even closer to figure out how to balance that all out.
I don't think I need the "supernatural" stuff, we can call it something else, but perhaps some equivalent bonus to Animal (tricks) & Ride (combat).
I will also post the Grippli Race information as soon as I make sure its balanced against the other Races.
It's a freakin' Grippli... :)
Oh, a biggie I missed... scimitar is NOT a proficiency of Unchained Rogue, do you mind swapping with rapier?
I still need to modify it to Light for finesse.
For me, mechanically they're similar but flavor wise, scimitar seems a better fit.
In the context of a mounted scout or outrider... slashing seems to make more sense. I mean they're not jousting.
Or, I could dip into something martial.
Reply to Djack Nymball
Actually what I stated is not incorrect. However, I fully understand the confusion, as I was there myself and had even mistakenly given Salaha a Large Crocodile which we had to sort-of retcon out in-game.
Basically I stumbled on the rest of the Guidlines which frankly make more sense when you compare them with what a Wizard gets with basically two Feats -- granted there's can start even smaller than an Animal Companion but with Advanced Familiar they basically have a Familiar that can improve as they gain levels and if one were to Reskin rather than Replace a familiar it is very similar to how the Animal Companion works although within a different paradigm.
Still to make it easier for you here are the links to where you can find the Giant Gecko as a starting Animal Companion being described as being a Small Animal. This can be found on the two places online that cover most of the Pathfinder 1e guidelines and since they both have it exactly the same (and they do not always agree with one another) I have to assume its in one of the books somewhere. Further if it makes you feel better, look up Crocodile in the Beistary and you will see the same seeming discrepancy with the 1st-level Animal Companion compared to what is in the Beistary which simply lends more weight to the basic concept that the Animal Companion for the Giant Gecko is not a one off mistake. Of course, if you can find examples that support your case, I will listen.
However, as I said their advancement guidelines are out of whack but since you are not 4th-level yet, that gives me plenty of time to share with you the improved and expanded advancement guidelines. Of course yours being a non-supernatural connection that might alter things some.
However, as I have also stated, you can simply take two Feats to basically get that back if wish as follows:
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+
Benefit: Add Dexterity Bonus to Attacks instead of Strength Bonus with Light Weapons.
Greater Weapon Finesse
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: Add Dexterity Bonus to Damage instead of Strength Bonus with Light Weapons.
Note: Applying the Light Quality (or basically making a weapon lighter) reduces its Damage Die by 1 Step -- (aka a 1d10 steps down to a 1d8 steps down to a 1d6 steps down to a 1d4)
However, since the Scimitar is basically the same mechanically as the Rapier other than trading Pierce for Slash damage I would have no trouble with you using Masterwork on the Scimitar to give it Finesse.
And along those lines if you were wanting this for a Non-Light Weapon there a couple of other Feats you can take that are similar but open up a weapon that is not a Light Weapon as follows:
Dervish Dance (for Scimitar)
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+, Scimitar Proficiency, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus(Scimitar) Perform(Dance) 2 Ranks
Fencing Grace (for Rapier)
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+, Rapier Proficiency, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus(Rapier) Perform(Dance) 2 Ranks
In fact the concept of Dervish Dance and Fencing Grace could be pretty much applied to any One-Handed Non-Light Melee Weapon that does 1d6 points of damage or less and does not have Heavy in its name. Of course why one would want to do that mechanics wise is beyond me as their are several Light Weapons that do 1d6 points of damage. As such, since I see this as being predominately for aesthetic purposes (yeah I am aware there is the potential for a very minor gain but one has used 3 Feats to get here and that is worth something), if anyone is interested in taking this concept for mostly flavor here is the new Feat that replaces and expands the previous two.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13+, Proficient in Weapon of Choice, Weapon Finesse, Perform(Dance) 2 Ranks
Benefit: The character chooses any single 1-Handed Weapon that does 1d6 or less damage that does not have Heavy in its name and they can apply their Dexterity modifier to damage with that single weapon instead of their Strength modifier. This Feat can be gained multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each the it is taken, it applies to a new weapon of choice.
Okay as stated previously since Rapier and Scimitar are basically the same mechanically and in fact the Scimitar is a step down the rung I am perfectly okay with making the proficiency swap.
Further with that in mind if you wanted to exchange your Short Sword proficiency with Machete or Hand Axe I am perfectly okay with that as again mechanically they are basically the same except for trading Pierce for Slash damage which is frankly insignificant.
Size: Small (Size Bonus +1 AC and To Hit, +4 Stealth; Size Penalty -1 CMB and CMD)
Speed: 20 ft
Senses: Low Light Vision
Natural Climber: Gain Climb Speed of 20 ft and a +8 Racial Bonus to Climb checks and may use their Dexterity instead of Strength for Climb checks.
Natural Swimmer: Gain Swim Speed of 20ft and a +8 Racial Bonus to Swim checks
Aquatic Glide: The character may move through any sort of watery impediment (such as kelp fields, marsh grasses, swirling currents, and similar watery terrain) at their normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. Areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect them. Further they leave no trace, scent, nor trail while moving within natural surroundings. Thus tracking them is impossible by nonmagical means, unless they choose to leave a trail. Further they gain a +4 Competence Bonus to any Stealth or Swim checks made while moving through a watery environment.
Hold Breath: The character can hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 times their Constitution score before they risk drowning.
Camouflage: The character receives a +4 Racial Bonus on Stealth checks in Bog/Marsh/Swamps, Forests and other natural terrain that has tall grass or underbrush.
Languages: Begin with Grippli one other language from their list.
Potential Additional Languages: Boggard, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Human (Keolan), Saurian (Lizardfolk), or Sylvan
Alternate Racial Traits
Jumper: The character is always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to Jump and gain a +8 Racial Bonus to Jump checks. This replaces Hold Breath.
Glider: The character is aerodynamically inclined with various skin webbing that enables them to glide 5ft forward where they want for every 5ft of descent, unless they can catch an updraft (GM discretion). Further as long as they can glide the take no falling damage. They cannot use this ability if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load. Further if they are wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load they will drop twice as fast moving 5ft forward for every 10 ft of descent as such they take half the distance fallen in falling damage. Further they gain a +4 Competence Bonus to Fly checks and Fly is a Class Skill and their Climb Speed increases to 40ft. This replaces Aquatic Glide and Natural Swimmer. It also removes Swim from their list of Class Skills.
Toxic Skin: As a Swift Action, the character can create a poison that can be applied to a weapon or delivered as a touch attack. Alternatively, they can smear the poison on its own body as a Standard Action, affecting the first creature to hit it with an unarmed strike or natural weapon. The poison loses its potency after 1 hour. They can produce this poison 3 + thier Constitution Modifer (min 1) per day but only once every hour. The character is immune to its own poison and those of its race. This replaces Aquatic Glide and Camouflage. Further, due its bright colorations it suffers a -4 Racial Penalty to Stealth versus visual Perception checks.
Poison: (Skin or Weapon) -- Contact or Injury; Save Fort DC + 1/2 Hit Dice (min 1) plus Con Modifier; Frequency 1/Rnd for 6 Rounds; Effect 1d2 Dexterity damage; Cure 1 Save
Okay well enjoy the read and let me know what you think. Again your voice counts in my book, but I will apply balance.
Reply to Dejoker
They either advance at 4th or 7th, I have not seen any that advance twice (looked at about 20). The lesser ones "typically" advance at 4th and go from S to M, while the more powerful one advance "typically" advance at 7th and go from M to L.
I'm fine waiting until 4th and keeping things RAW. I do not believe there should be another advancement at 7th.
Did you consider any bonuses to Animal or Ride skills?
Well, not -5 but rather the difference between Dex & Str bonus.
I'll need to multi-class Paladin (Divine Hunter) and use a Kukri. Saves me +1 MW and 2 feats, as I pick up Precise Shot. If I need to be LG, that's fine.
And I see what your adding, allowing and taking away. But, I'm obviously unaware of what you're balancing or balancing against when it comes to class features. Aren't we all supposed to excel at certain things, our roles?
I'm creating a rogue and I optimize how they find traps and kill things through precision damage. I simply took the Unchained Rogue and wanted the Pet Trainer archetype from a 3PP.
We can forget about the scimitar stuff, gets too kinky. But thank you for exploring.
So, when we get to the point of accepting what we've agreed upon for a starting character... Does this method continue with every level advancement?
Will there be a review for every feat or synergies between feats, rogue talents, multi-classing, etc..?
For the record, I do appreciate your indulging my character concept and respect the time you've taken to work things out thus far.
Further just a note (and I am not saying or implyig you are doing this, just clarifying) there is no such thing as RaW as they specifically (or usually) come right out and say guidelines -- or stipulate use what works and either change or remove what does not work -- so I always refer to them as to what they are and how I will treat them and that is GaW (Guidelines as Written) I do this to put Rules Lawyers on notice that lawyering something that is non-existent is not going to happen here.
Yes I am considering adjusting the 1st-Level Feats that the Companion gets but I have not had a lot of time to dig into that. If you have any suggestions (and perhaps supply link or book and page #) that might help speed things up on this. Which is to say, you do not have to take a back seat and just wait.
As for the detriment to Attack is significant it is not unsurmountable, just take the Weapon Finesse Feat and you have it back, and frankly if your character is going to have Dexterity of 20 I would strongly suggest that not only do you take Weapon Finesse at 1st-Level but definitely take Greater Weapon Finesse at 3rd-Level. As yes that +5 To Hit and +5 to Damage are going to be significant at the lower levels then combine that with Precise Attack (aka improperly named Sneak Attack) and the fact that you will be able to pretty much Flank all your opponents you will become a fairly forimidable fighter and your character is not even a fighter.
As for Greater Weapon Finesse versus Precise Shot that kind of depends on whether you plan to go the Archer route or not. If you are planning that route then well maybe Weapon Finesse is not needed as you will be making a specialized ranged fighter type. Which is fine as well but yeah exploiting both would be rather difficult. Lastly if you plan to dip into Paladin(Divine Hunter) please do so now, I mean yes while mechanically one can just dip into any class one wants to -- in-game aesthetics get just shredded when one does so -- further if you would like me to meld into your current Rogue class 1-level of Paladin(Divine Hunter) or even better the theme of Paladin(Divine Hunter) I can do that and would be more than willing to do so just to forego the multi-classing concept even though that is mechanically what we would be doing it would just aesthetically be a single class.
First of all I went through all the races and outlined all the basics that they get and determined that each Race gets the equivalent of 6 Feats with a few minor extras.
Then I look at the theme of the race and try to implement anything already outlined for that race while keeping it balanced. So the Grippli are based off being Frog Humanoids, specifically Tree Frogs as such I do research on real life Tree Frogs and then do what I can to merge that flavor into the race.
First off whomever, decided that these should be a Grippli's Attributes see no reason to change them
+2 to Dexterity = 1 Feat
+2 to Wisdom = 1 Feat
-2 to Strength = -1 Feat
Size being small is fine as frogs go tree frogs are small
Size: Small = 0 Feat
Okay they gave them a 30ft Speed which I went with initially but than after adding in the other what I felt were more thematic aspects I reduced it so that the Grippli did not exceed 6 Feats and I felt the 20ft (for being small) versus 30ft was the least important for the theme.
Speed 20ft = -1 Feat
This one is easy, there are no non-magical races or creatures that have Dark Vision in my world so reducing the Dark Vision which by the way is at least 2 Feats to just Low Light Vision which is 1 Feat is fairly easy. And of course tree frogs do not have Dark Vision either.
Senses: Low Light Vision = 1 Feat
This was given to them by the original designers and fits a tree frog
Natural Climber = 1 Feat
This I gave them because again this fits them as a tree frog and melds into their Aquatic Glide
Natural Swimmer = 1 Feat
This is my version of Swamp Stride which the designers gave them as it is a bit more generic allowing to be worth an actual full Feat and I can see this befitting of a tree frog
Aquatic Glide = 1 Feat
This I added to because frankly it should have been there from get go, tree frogs like all frogs are actually amphibious and are capable of breathing through their skin underwater, however the guidelines for amphibious act more like gills which frogs do not have nor is their ability to breath through their skin so great that it could be defined as amphibious per the guidelines. However, when reading this ability of breathing through the skin it also stated this is mostly used in a resting state only and that actively they can only remain submerged for about 45 minutes to an hour and this fits the guidelines for Hold Breath 10 Constituion = 40 minutes a 20 Constitution = 1 hour 20 minutes so definitely in the ball park.
Hold Breath = 1 Feat
This was given to them by the designers and I expanded it a smidge to make it more of a full Feat. This is of course based off the fact that tree frogs are of a coloration that blends well into their surroundings so I could see this as well and kept it.
Camouflage = 1 Feat
This one is pretty straight forward, every race starts off with knowing 2 languages but because the Grippli are Swamp/Marsh living creatures they are not guaranteed to speak Local Human (aka Common) as such they can pick a language from their limited list. Further almost all races have a limited list of additional languages that they can learn pre-game or without acquiring Linguistics. Further while I try to make languages something that is somewhat important they are by far the lease significant aspect to most games so not worth a Feat and since every race gets 2 languages plus some additional ones I roll the limited additional languages into the Theme based aspect of the race.
Languages = 0 Feat
Potential Additional Languages = 0 Feat
Total Cost of the Grippi Race = 6 Feats
Now however if you want a Grippli that moves faster on land I could add an addtional Alternate Racial Trait such as:
Runner: The character adds 10ft to their Base Speed. This replaces Camouflage.
Thematically this is saying that the faster moving Tree Frog, developed speed because its coloration was not as blending.
I do this also when merging a pair of classes, or basically taking the concept of multiclassing and converting it into a normal-like single class. Granted I cannot always do this and retain what one would get from multiclassing but most of the time I can blend them into a quality merged theme that allows the player to get what they want and still be a single classed character. Of course, if someone did this and took a Race that gave you the benefit of gaining 2 Class Focus benefits -- I could then use that to feed into their single class, provided the player promised not to take a 3rd class later on.
Still some players feel multiclassing is like naturally growing and branching into other avenues of learning, and while I concur with that basic concept that is not how multiclassing is designed at all -- now I could design it as such if that is what a player wanted to do.
Still, as I stated, the actual implementation of multiclassing completely shreds the aesthetics of in-game play -- sure it is fantasy but without an in-game reason (which players are not required to have) they can multiclass pretty much willy-nilly and often do. Further, multiclassing as it stands says you have all those years of background you would have needed to become a 1st-level of whatever class you are getting into and that is what shreds the in-game aesthetical role playing all to heck.
Look forward to your thoughts on this and I hope it helps you understand my thought patterns when it comes to this.
Aka -- present me with a solid theme and I will do my best to help you create that theme provided it remains balanced.
I see both links/guidelines you've sited - SRD and Nethys saying that it's 4th or 7th (emphasis mine). It also says "or" in the respective Druid class descriptions.
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics.
If I had to multiclass, Ranger - Divine Marksman and probably only to Level 3 maximum.
Knowledge (Nature), Survival as class skills (I could take the Additional Traits feat?) and access to a variety of light and ranged martial weapons (finesse/Dex based). A feat for 1 weapon with Martial Weapon Proficiency seems mucho lame.
Could use and perhaps fits the vibe, throwing axe, kukri, machete, light hammer - imagine made of bone or a small stone orb, hand axe, sea-knife, war razor, chakram, longbow, pilum.
Bullseye Shot is cool, I never know what to take with Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy could be thematic, as could Track.
I can pick up the Archery Style feats (except the no pre-reqs part) and Favored Terrain as feats or talents.
Thematically, he's what I'm calling an Outrider - meaning a scout/warrior agent from a relatively insular group that responsible for being on the border as a buffer and go between with the outside world.
Could be appointed by societal leaders and/or the temple. He's got his duties, he takes them seriously and perhaps has taken some oath. It might be divine or not, not sure what fits in this setting.
Ah and nice catch -- I seemed to have read the OR as an AND -- thus showing I am not perfect. Will need to revisit that again.
Rogue Scout Pet Trainer Features
1st: Animal Companion, Precise Attack +1d6, Trap Finding
2nd: Evasion, Rogue Talent
3rd: Precise Attack +2d6, Danger Sense +1
4th: Debilitating Injury, Rogue Talent, Scout Charge
5th: Rogue Edge (skill unlock), Precise Attack +3d6
6th: Rogue Talent, Danger Sense +2
7th: Precise Attack +4d6
8th: Rogue Talent, Skirmisher
9th: Precise Attack +5d6, Danger Sense +3
.... the rest is the same
Note the class gains Animals (aka Handling Animals) and Ride as Class Skills but loses Disguise and Linguistics as Class Skills.
As to the losing 2 Skill Points per Level that I am still investigating and I might change that somewhat and/or incorporate it into the Animal Companion concept related skills and such or simply do away with it. It all kind of depends on the balance and theme aspects and what else I can find that might speak to me about that theme.
I be will looking into this Paladin(Divine Hunter) and see what of that you felt would be viable for this character. That is unless you want to outline that for me in more detail. On another thought instead of a Scout/Pet Trainer -- we create a Rogue(Ranger) Archetype basically a non-magic using Ranger as the theme does seem to be running in that direction and then we could maybe weave in a few more things that are more Ranger oriented without fully losing all the current benefits. What do you think, would you like to experiment with that a bit and see what it might look like?
And based on your previous feedback, I am going to take that as a yes. So let me dive into melding the Ranger without Magic (unless you really want that as part of the class) and the Rogue and see what I can come up with.
From Unchained Rogue, I'm happy to give up/trade Debilitating Injury and Rogue's Edge. I'm a sucker for simple.
Also, adding Knowledge (Nature) and Survival could make up for some of of the missing 2 Skill Points per Level.
As to theme, he's possibly been in the militia, drafted young (martial weapons) of some sort and promoted to "Outrider" it's an honor to have been chosen and viewed as worthy. He displayed awareness, guile and valor.
They are small, so precision is where success is at when dealing with the big people and many natural threats out there are larger and would consider them food.
Much of the time, he's alone so that's why his training afford him a companion/partner. And why he needs to end the fight quickly (precision damage). Striker?
Rogue in this case is for the mechanics, not the vibe. He's not a criminal or ruffian or charlatan. Think of him as special forces.
Whether he was sent out by a trusted mentor or someone who wanted to get rid of him (behind the scenes), is unknown. [EDIT:]He might have even been sent out pre-maturely, desperate time - and it explains why his companion is a runt or stunted. Of course, assuming he survives he returns upon a noble steed.
All kinds of story hooks.
Flavor wise, I did take Sacred Touch (trait, most of my characters have it as they are virtuous)... Detect Evil (w/Aura of Good) would be cool! Unless some else has it, I don't want to step on toes.
So, there is a bit of the divine or a charmed existence, an avatar of Good.
... Simple Weapons, Martial Light Weapons, Bola, Scimitar, Chakram, Deer Horn Knife, Short Bow, Short Composite Bow, Quadrens
... Light Armor, Shields
Note Weapons that are technically Simple Weapons remain simple weapons. For instance Ammentum, Pilum, and Jolting Dart are still just Simple Weapons as well as others.
Level ... BAB ........... Fort ... Rflx ... Will
.1st ......... 1 ............... +2 ....... +2 ..... +0
.2nd ....... 2 ............... +2 ....... +3 ..... +0
.3rd ........ 3 ............... +3 ....... +3 ..... +1
.4th ........ 4 ............... +3 ....... +4 ..... +1
.5th ........ 5 ............... +3 ....... +4 ..... +1
.6th ...... 6/1 ............. +4 ....... +5 ..... +2
.7th ...... 6/1 ............. +4 ....... +5 ..... +2
.8th ...... 7/2 ............. +4 ....... +6 ..... +2
.9th ...... 8/3 ............. +5 ....... +6 ..... +3
10th ..... 9/4 ............. +5 ....... +7 ..... +3
11th .... 10/5 ............ +5 ....... +7 ..... +3
12th .... 11/6/1 ........ +6 ....... +8 ..... +4
13th .... 11/6/1 ........ +6 ....... +8 ..... +4
14th .... 12/7/2 ........ +6 ....... +9 ..... +4
15th .... 13/8/3 ........ +7 ....... +9 ..... +5
16th .... 14/9/4 ........ +7 ..... +10 ..... +5
17th .... 15/10/5 ...... +7 ..... +10 ..... +5
18th .... 16/11/6/1 .. +8 ..... +11 ..... +6
19th .... 16/11/6/1 .. +8 ..... +11 ..... +6
20th .... 17/12/7/2 .. +8 ..... +12 ..... +6
Proficiency: Light Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons,
..1st - Animal Companion, Track, Trap Finding
..2nd - Evasion, Rogue Talent
..3rd - Danger Sense +1, Precise Attack +1d6
..4th - Rogue Talent, Scout Charge
..5th - Hunter, Precise Attack +2d6
..6th - Danger Sense +2, Rogue Talent
..7th - Precise Attack +3d6, Woodland Stride
..8th - Rogue Talent, Skirmisher
..9th - Danger Sense +3, Precise Attack +4d6
10th - Rogue Talent, Superior Hunter
11th - Advanced Talents, Precise Attack +5d6
12th - Danger Sense +4, Rogue Talent
13th - Precise Attack +6d6
14th - Rogue Talent
15th - Danger Sense +5, Great Hunter, Precise Attack +6d6
16th - Improved Evasion, Rogue Talent
17th - Precise Attack +7d6
18th - Danger Sense +6, Rogue Talent
19th - Precise Attack +9d6
20th - Danger Sense +7, Master Hunter, Rogue Talent
Most of the above is already explained so all I will do is explain the items not already explained. Oh and note I thought about giving this class "Rogue Talent or Combat Style" (per Combat Style's level progression) but then realized that the Rogue Talent already encompasses that and even better than the restricted Combat Style does. So yeah you can take a Combt Style Feat as a Rogue Talent if you so choose.
Whenever the character deals Precise Attack damage to their foe, they can choose to apply an additional effect, causing the target to take a penalty until the end of the character's next round. The target gets a Fortitude Save to negate this additional effect. The DC of this Save is 10 + 1/2 Rogue Level (round down) + Dexterity Modifier. If the Save fails, the additional effect chosen, before the Save is made, takes affect. The character can choose to apply one of the following effects in addition to the damage dealt.
Bewildered: The target takes a -2 Penalty to AC, Skill/Ability checks and Reflex Saves. This penalty increases by -2 (total -4) from attacks made by the character that inflicted this condition.
Disoriented: The target takes a -2 Penalty to Attack rolls, Concentration checks, and Will Saves. The penalty increases by -2 (total -4) versus attacks made against the character that inflicted this condition.
Hampered: The target's Speeds are Reduced by Half (minimum 5ft) and the target cannot take Attacks of Opportunity for 1 round and they cannot take a 5ft step if they move during the round while Hampered. This stacks with the Rogue's Slow Reactions extending the AoO penalty to 2 rounds.
Whenever following tracks, the character can take 10 on their Survival checks while moving at Normal Speed, without penalty. Further they can apply a second level of Bewildered, Disoriented, or Hampered. This raises the pentalties for Bewildered/Disoriented to -4/-6 and inflicts an additional penalty. Bewildered II reduces the targets Initiative by 4 (min 0 -- aka they go last) on top of the other penalties and Disoriented II adds a 25% Spell Failure Chance on top of the other penalties. Hampered II means the character cannot take Attacks of Opportunity while effected. Further the target takes a -3 penalty to any Athletic or Acrobatic checks made while Hampered.
Whenever following tracks, the character can take 20 on their Survival checks while moving at Normal Speed, without penalty. Further they can apply a third level of Bewildered, Disoriented, or Hampered. This raises the pentalties for Bewildered/Disoriented to -6/-8 and inflicts an additional penalty. Bewildered III reduces the targets Initiative by an additional 4 (total 8) (min 0 -- aka they go last) on top of the other penalties and Disoriented III increases the Spell Failure Chance to 50% on top of the other penalties. Hampered III means the target Speeds are reduced to 25% (minimum 5ft) and the target cannot take Attacks of Opportunity and they cannot take a 5ft step if they move during the round while Hampered. Further the target takes a -6 penalty to any Athletic or Acrobatic checks made while Hampered.
Whenever following tracks, the character can take 20 on their Survival checks while moving at a Run, without penalty. Further they become incredibly deadly when dealing Precise Attack damage. Each time they deal Precise Attack damage, they inflict one of the following three effects:
1) The target is rendered Unconscious for 1d10 + 10 rounds if they are subject to sleep.
2) The target is Paralyzed for 1d6 + 5 rounds if they can be Paralyzed.
3) The target is Impaired for 1d4 + 1 round, unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells or do anything else requiring attention. The only Action they can take is a Single Move Action per round.
Note I realize this changes some aspects of the Rogue's Master Strike but I think I would have had to make those changes anyway as Save or Slain is an extremely powerful mundane effect. Far more powerful than even a 20th level Rogue should have, at least IMO. Further the choice did not make a lot of sense to me. Mine is more simplistic, the most severe affect takes place if it can, followed by the next less severe, and then the final catch all. Further these can be seen as a much higher level of progression of the 3 lower Hunter abilities. As as you noticed the Hunter abilities expand Tracking along with your Precise Attack much in the vein of Debilitating Injury and then expanded some. These enhancements along with the enchancements to your BAB and Fort Saves was empowered by your class losing Rogue Edge which you can take as a normal Feat if you so choose.
Another item that should be noted, if you take Camouflage the character will have an expanded ability to make personal camouflage as describe or a larger screen to hide themselves and others. Basically a combination of the Rogue Camouflage and the Ranger Camouflage concepts.
I rethought some things for balance, cohesion and simplicity. And, of course my own tastes and sensibilities.
Assigned to the fringes of the realm, Outriders are buffers between their people and others. They are sentinels, defenders, go-betweens, messengers and couriers.
The are expected to operate with little supervision or assistance. As such, their training focuses on self-sufficiency.
I do appreciate your making them more "martial" but, I toned it back a notch while adding some other "thematic" components.
I placed them back in 3/4 BAB status, I didn't feel they need nor should have the 4th attack.
I did take your midline Save progression (love it) and applied it across the board. Shades of the original gangsta Monk class.
Hunter progression was well defined, but it wasn't the direction I was going... they wouldn't be hunting per se. I mean a survival check for food, sure.
That progression seems more for larger game. For humanoids, I don't think they'd be toying with them. Kinda what I originally didn't like about debilitating injury. I replaced it with stuff like Wild Empathy, Endurance and Uncanny Dodge.
And, the big surprise which I hope you are OK with is the Animal Companion. Back to Exactly as a Ranger's Hunter's Bond feature. Level 4, Class Level -3 for the companion.
Thematically, learn the environment, learn animals, husband a specific animal and it evolves, most probably into a mount. Link companion feature should probably stay, as it's more empathy and knowing one another than anything else.
I had never meant for the companion to become another melee attack, never meant for it to be that powerful. Just wanted a buddy to threaten for flanking - obviously and a mount that wouldn't die with one hit.
But, after seeing your point, it confirmed that 3/4 BAB is OK, as is no Finesse Training, after all if you use STR... you don't need it.
For the lesser companion, I subbed in a single Favored Terrain, as Ranger (bonus progresses) or as Rogue Talent (static bonus), up to you.
Woodland/Outrider's Stride would work in their chosen Favored Terrain (from earlier). Or, if you are feeling generous, any others they pick up with Rogue Talents. I feel either works.
Capstone was the Master Talents alternative, they are pretty lethal as it is at that point - and, I did give them full Precision progression. This is because I feel to be viable they might need it, as they are +0 BAB and no spells.
Lastly, since they interface with other people, foreigners, etc... would appreciate Diplomacy as a Class Skill.
I took your lead and looked at it from a generic PoV. Not a Grippli or my specific terrains, companions, etc...
Seems Solid. I don't feel it's any more powerful than the version you put forth.
What do you think?
Level .... BAB ................. F ...... R ...... W ........ Class Features
1st ....... +0 .................... +2 .... +2 .... +2 ........ Precise Attack +1d6, Track, Trap Finding
2nd ...... +1 .................... +2 .... +2 .... +2 ........ Evasion, Wild Empathy
3rd ....... +2 .................... +3 .... +3 .... +3 ........ Danger Sense +1, Favored Terrain, Precise Attack +2d6
4th ....... +3 .................... +3 .... +3 .... +3 ........ Endurance, Hunter's Bond, Rogue Talent
5th ....... +3 .................... +3 .... +3 .... +3 ........ Precise Attack +3d6, Scout Charge
6th ....... +4 .................... +4 .... +4 .... +4 ........ Danger Sense +2, Rogue Talent
7th ....... +5 .................... +4 .... +4 .... +4 ........ Precise Attack +4d6, Outrider's Stride (in favored terrain)
8th ....... +6/+1 .............. +4 .... +4 .... +4 ........ Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
9th ....... +6/+1 .............. +5 .... +5 .... +5 ........ Danger Sense +3, Precise Attack +5d6
10th ..... +7/+2 .............. +5 .... +5 .... +5 ........ Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent, Skirmisher
11th ..... +8/+3 .............. +5 .... +5 .... +5 ........ Precise Attack +6d6
12th ..... +9/+4 .............. +6 .... +6 .... +6 ........ Danger Sense +4, Rogue Talent
13th ..... +9/+4 .............. +6 .... +6 .... +6 ........ Precise Attack +7d6
14th ..... +10/+5 ............ +6 .... +6 .... +6 ........ Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent
15th ..... +11/+6/+1 ....... +7 .... +7 .... +7 ........ Danger Sense +5, Precise Attack +8d6
16th ..... +12/+7/+2 ....... +7 .... +7 .... +7 ........ Improved Evasion, Rogue Talent
17th ..... +12/+7/+2 ....... +7 .... +7 .... +7 ........ Precise Attack +9d6
18th ..... +13/+8/+3 ....... +8 .... +8 .... +8 ........ Danger Sense +6, Rogue Talent
19th ..... +14/+9/+4 ....... +8 .... +8 .... +8 ........ Precise Attack +10d6
20th ..... +15/+10/+5 ..... +8 .... +8 .... +8 ........ Danger Sense +7, Master Talent, Rogue Talent
*Add Diplomacy as Class Skill.
Okay Stone then you definitely want to look at my Guidelines for Masterwork as that might greatly change what you might want to do since my Masterwork basically replaces the concept of only using Magic to give an item a plus To Hit, Damage, and/or AC as well as other things. Such as add Finesse to say a Scimitar or make a backpack hold a bit more or numerous other things with weapons, armor, shields, and gear in general.
The maximum single plus during character creation for anything is a +2 however a Weapon could have a +2 To Hit and a +2 to Damage but that would 4 levels of Masterwork and each level of Masterwork increases the item cost by x5 so 4 levels = 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 = 625 x Base Cost. Just to give you an idea.
The normal +1 To Hit on a Weapon from GaW version of Masterwork only costs a mere 5 x Base Cost of the Weapon which is going to be a lot less than what they charge for Masterwork.
Thanx Djack I will take a close look at what you did along with your theme (might take a bit) and see how things go.
How does masterwork armor work then? It seems prohibitively expensive.
Most likely I'll just undo masterwork and avoid the system since it seems rather more complex than I want to deal with. I might go with a +1/+1 masterwork warhammer since that's about what it costs now.
So with that said let us look at what was and its effect on the items you purchased:
Full Plate (1,500gp) AC +9 ACP -6
Masterwork (+150gp) AC +9 ACP -5
Heavy Steel Shield (20gp) AC +2 ACP -2
Masterwork (+150gp) AC +2 ACP -1
Masterwork (+300gp) To Hit +1
Okay so for 150gp you reduced your ACP on the Armor by 1 point, and for an additional 150gp you reduced your ACP on the Shield by 1 point, and for an additional 300gp you gave yourself a +1 To Hit with your Warhammer.
Now you are correct applying Masterwork to full plate for a beginning character is cost prohibitive but there are alternatives get to that in a bit.
The shield however looks like this:
Heavy Steel Shield (20gp) AC +2 ACP -2
Masterwork (20gp x 5 = 100gp) AC +2 ACP -1
Masterwork (20gp x 5 = 100gp) AC +3 ACP -2
So your Shield costs (200gp) to apply that -1 to ACP, using my guidelines the Shield for that same -1 to ACP costs 100gp, however, with mine you also have for that same 100gp the option to up its AC value. Of course applying another level a Masterwork would be costly as then it would cost 500gp but could look like this
Masterwork (20gp x 5 x 5 = 500gp) AC +3 ACP -1
Masterwork (20gp x 5 x 5 = 500gp) AC +4 ACP -2
Now the Weapon well that wins hands down because you did not choose an extremely costly weapon, which infers it is not has costly to masterwork.
Warhammer (12gp) To Hit +0 Damage +0
Masterwork (12gp x 5 = 60gp) To Hit +1 Damage +0
So 60gp to get that +1 To Hit versus 312gp
However as you noticed you do not have to stop there. You can take it further doing:
Warhammer (12gp) To Hit +0 Damage +0
Masterwork (12gp x 5 x 5 = 300gp) To Hit +2 Damage +0
Masterwork (12gp x 5 x 5 = 300gp) To Hit +1 Damage +1
So for 300gp you get +2 To Hit or +1 To Hit and Damage and that is still less than the 312gp you spent.
Now let us look at your AC and ACP situation
Full Plate (1,500gp) AC +9 ACP -6 50 lbs
Masterwork (+150gp) AC +9 ACP -5 50 lbs
Heavy Steel Shield (20gp) AC +2 ACP -2 15 lbs
Masterwork (+150gp) AC +2 ACP -1 15 lbs
Total AC +11 ACP -6 65 lbs
Now while I cannot match your ACP I can match your AC for a lot less weight.
Banded Mail (250gp) AC +7 ACP -6 35 lbs
Masterwork (250gp x 5 = 500gp) AC +8 ACP -6 35 lbs
Light Steel Shield (9gp) AC +1 ACP -1 6 lbs
Masterwork (9gp x 5 x 5 = 225gp) AC +3 ACP -1 6 lbs
Total AC +11 ACP -7 41 lbs
So I hope that helps you understand that system a little bit easier, again for very expansive items it is much more expensive to masterwork something. For the items that are not as expensive it is not as expensive to masterwork the item. To me this makes intuitive sense but it also gets very costly the masterwork you put into an item.
Oh please there is cap on masterwork during creatino, you cannot apply more than a +2 (or -2) to any single aspect of a single object but otherwise you can go hog wild with applying lots of masterwork levels to an item. For instance, let's take a Hammer (yeah it does not exist, so we will reskin a Light Mace)
Hammer (5gp) 4 lbs 1d6 Cx2
So I want to make it so I can throw this Hammer the farthest I can and give it is maximum bonus To Hit and Damage
Master 1-Level +1 To Hit
Master 2-Level +2 To Hit (maxed cannot add any more)
Master 3-Level +1 Damage
Master 4-Level +2 Damage (maxed cannot add any more)
Master 5-Level 10ft Range
Master 6-Level 20ft Range (maxed cannot add any more)
Hammer (??gp) 4 lbs To Hit +2 1d6+2 Cx2 Range 20ft
That is 6-Levels of Masterwork on a Hammer which would be doable except you just hit the you cannot afford it level as that would cost:
1st You do realize that you will not start out with that Companion and when you do get it at 4th-Level it will still start out as a Giant Gecko (Small) and will not become Medium sized until the character reaches 7th-Level yes/no?
2nd What is Master Talent?? Or what are your thoughts on what it might be, if its just a sort of a place holder?
Thought: Now since you are willing to delay to get this Outrider Mount until 4th-level what if I pattern it off the Paladin Mount instead of the Ranger or the Druid Animal Companion? We could still have it appear at 4th level (instead of the 5th-level for a Paladin) but it would be a mystical nature beast in aspect, allowing you to sort of more conveniently have it there and not have it there as needed. It would not be a spell you cast, it just, when you call it, takes 1d4+1 rounds for it to come from some where out of sight and thus your character might not even fully realize its a mystical creature. Note I would still let you "Teach it Tricks" such as Flank and such and make you outline what you have taught it ahead of time but I would limit differently how many Tricks you can "Teach" it due to the new aspect of what creature is and is not.
Aka call it a gift from Nature due to your constant honoring nature in your daily life. You know like thanking an animal spirits gift of food when you kill it for that purpose, offering tobacco smoke (pipe usually or burned in a small bowl) to the spirits, burying tobacco for the spirits to acquire, and/or etc...
Note we do not have to make it a truly mystical creature, it could simply be a more natural one that finds you when the time is right and stays with you like any semi-normal animal would but does it more formidable the longer it stays with you.
2nd - Masterful Talent alternate capstone <<< Link
Just scroll down a little. Basically, +4 on skill checks.
Thought - It's a nice idea. We've thus far steered clear of any "magic" arcane or divine. I mean, they say it's loyal. Should be good enough. I don't think it should be any more special than the Ranger version.
I think it's up to the DM to be kind or unkind... having it be targeted, die, run off, etc... Obviously, the player shouldn't be doing silly things and putting in dangerous/stupid situations.
Usually, DM would say that the companion would wait outside "whatever" (cave, house, etc...) and hide, run from aggressors. And of find them when we exited.
In this case, size S & M they can pretty much go where the party goes?
Story-wise, I'm a sucker. Would be great to rescue the bugger along the way during/end of Level 3 it can shed/grow and maybe save me at the end of Level 6?
Also one of those things that dropped your Skill Points from 8 to 6 I am going to incorporate into Wild Empathy and call it Animal Knack as follows:
Animal Knack (Ex)
The character is continuously learning the ways of animals and their Animals skill is equal to this Class Level and is always a Class Skill for the character. Furthermore they can improve the intial attitude of animals through interaction, this functions just like a Diplomacy(Charisma) check to improve the attitude of a person but the character makes an Animals(Charisma) check instead. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
Thus this is where one of those Skill Points went. Note again I simply call the Handling Animals skill just Animals skill as it really is a lot more than just handling them. This of course then opens the door for another skill to replace the skill that just got swallowed into a Feature.
So we can add Diplomacy back in.
Okay finished going over the Class Features and while most of it is okay you did exceed your limit by 1 as such here is what I have that I can agree upon.
Outrider Class Features
1st: Precise Attack +1d6, Track, Trap Finding
2nd: Animal Knack, Evasion
3rd: Danger Sense +1, Precise Attack +2d6
4th: Outrider Companion, Rogue Talent, Scout Charge
5th: Attuned Terrain, Precise Attack +3d6
6th: Danger Sense +2, Rogue Talent
7th: Precise Attack +4d6
8th: Rogue Talent, Outrider Stride
9th: Danger Sense +3, Precise Attack +5d6
10th: Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent, Skirmisher
11th: Precise Attack +6d6
12th: Danger Sense +4, Rogue Talent
13th: Precise Attack +7d6
14th: Rogue Talent
15th: Danger Sense +5, Precise Attack +8d6, Uncanny Dodge
16th: Improved Evasion, Rogue Talent
17th: Precise Attack +9d6
18th: Danger Sense +6, Rogue Talent
19th: Improved Evasion, Precise Attack +10d6
20th: Danger Sense +7, Master Talent, Rogue Talent
Do note that with all this there is still a minor addition that I plan to incorporate into the Outrider Companion that is not enough to allow for the extra ability you wanted.
Stone what about the shield? Staying with the heavier shield and masterworking it or masterworking a lighter shield? Makes no difference to me just want to know your preference.
Just a heads up when you join another game as I doubt you will be able to do this now (but you can go back and check if you are so inclined) -- but when you dot you normally delete the dot post -- as that allows you to be "dotted" without actually having a dot post remain in the story thread