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Cross-posting from the Outpost Announcement thread in case anyone missed it:
Okay GMs, this is the closing weekend for Outpost. Most of you have already wrapped up your games and reported by now (great job, by the way), but we still have about 30 games still going. Please wrap these up as soon as possible so your players can get ready for the next adventure.
Even if it looks like you won’t finish the gameplay by May 15 we are asking you to [u]go ahead and report your games[/u] by the deadline so that we can finish up the admin stuff and close out the convention before Paizocon. Please help us by getting these last few games reported. Thanks again for stepping up to run games. It is greatly appreciated!
:)
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From the hard working team bringing you PbP as part of PaizoCon:
Hello all!
PaizoCon Online 2023 starts in about 1.5 weeks from now.
Just like the previous years, PaizoCon Online 2023 hosts Play by Post games!
There are still plenty of spots available. So, please check out PaizoCon Online 2023 Warhorn and filter by Venue to find the games you want.
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Moving this to Discussion from Recruiting thread:
Question, are any of the GMs on StartPlaying website part of the pfs society? Or are paid games against the rules for pfs?
I don't believe there's a Society rule against charging a fee either for the GM or for the venue. GM Muerte does so in PFS, and he uses StartPlaying. Here's his Warhorn page.
Moving this to Discussion from Recruiting thread:
Question, are any of the GMs on StartPlaying website part of the pfs society? Or are paid games against the rules for pfs?I don't believe there's a Society rule against charging a fee either for the GM or for the venue. GM Muerte does so in PFS, and he uses StartPlaying. Here's his Warhorn page.
Thank you.
GM DarkLightHitomi, I feel compelled to point out that Pathfinder Society runs by relatively strict rules, and that you cannot use homebrew systems or even homebrewed elements in Pathfinder Society games.
GM DarkLightHitomi, I feel compelled to point out that Pathfinder Society runs by relatively strict rules, and that you cannot use homebrew systems or even homebrewed elements in Pathfinder Society games.
You must have heard of me before. :)
I am however aware, hence specifying pf1 which I am much more familiar with.
If I'm going to get paid though, I'm much more flexible in what I'll run.
I've mainly been so focused on wanting to run my system because I was trying to squeeze it in between work. If it is work though, with running several games a week, then I can run other systems and still get time spent on my system.
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Paid Society games are allowed, but frowned upon.
They also are not allowed to be advertised on any Org Play Online lodge, which includes Flaxseed, Cottonseed, and Castamir Station.
(there is a bit of an exception for convention games that are Paizo sponosored or charity conventions, but that does not apply in the situation being discussed recently.)
Paid Society games are allowed, but frowned upon.
They also are not allowed to be advertised on any Org Play Online lodge, which includes Flaxseed, Cottonseed, and Castamir Station.
(there is a bit of an exception for convention games that are Paizo sponosored or charity conventions, but that does not apply in the situation being discussed recently.)
I thought all the internet counted as the online lodge. It doesn't?
The other thread mentioned this but made it kinda sound like I'm not allowed to advertise anywhere. Can I get some clarification on that?
The StartPlaying website is basically a storefront for paid games and would rather require advertising there if one uses their payment system due to how it's structured.
I thought all the internet counted as the online lodge. It doesn't?
During my tenure as Venture Captain, I spent a lot of time defining what counted as one of our Online Lodges and what did not, because the internet is a vast and amorphous thing, and serving as the Venture Officer for the entire internet would have made my head explode. Having our territory be specific online lodges where there was a strong and visible venture officer presence that could answer questions and head off problems made so much more sense. It's the Venture Officers that make a lodge a lodge.
And you'll note I said "Lodges" not "Lodge." Like in-person spaces, online lodges happen at specific locations like our forum here or various discord channels.
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I'll also add that when the online region was founded, it was done so with the idea of open and accessible games for all. Unfortunately for paid games this can naturally exclude players when payment is required. This is in part because we serve a worldwide player base where personal financial situations vary, some regions do not commonly use credit cards, poor currency conversions, etc.
Personally, I don't have a problem with paid games in general, and I support GM's who want to offer their services in this way, but it just can't be done within one of our lodges. StartPlaying is not an OPO lodge so paid games can advertise there. Same with Warhorn. Warhorn is not an OPO lodge, and paid games can be advertised there. Games can be advertised online as long as it is not an OPO lodge.
When this topic comes up in my lodges I do give caution that the surplus of society content being run for free can make it difficult to charge for society games. Not impossible, as you can see, but more difficult. Generally speaking I think charging for longer form adventures are where you'll find more success, like the single book modules or multi-book adventure paths. Though I do not have much experience with PF1 so perhaps that changes things.
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I thought all the internet counted as the online lodge. It doesn't?During my tenure as Venture Captain, I spent a lot of time defining what counted as one of our Online Lodges and what did not, because the internet is a vast and amorphous thing, and serving as the Venture Officer for the entire internet would have made my head explode. Having our territory be specific online lodges where there was a strong and visible venture officer presence that could answer questions and head off problems made so much more sense. It's the Venture Officers that make a lodge a lodge.
And you'll note I said "Lodges" not "Lodge." Like in-person spaces, online lodges happen at specific locations like our forum here or various discord channels.
Specifically, our official online Lodges are:
Paizo forums:
Flaxseed (Pathfinder 1e) - PBP
Cottonseed (Pathfinder 2e) - PBP
Castommir Station (Starfinder) - PBP
Discord Lodges:
Organized Play Online (OPO) - VTT/PBP
Cayden's Keg - VTT/PBP
Find the Path - VTT/PBP
Roll for Combat - VTT/PBP
Cosmic Crit - VTT
Glass Cannon - VTT
Russian Online - VTT
Italian Online - VTT
German Online - VTT
All good info, thank you.
Next question, if I'm not in a lodge, how do I handle things like confirmation sheets, reporting, etc?
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I'll also add that, anecdotally, the most I've paid for a 4-hour PFS game is $5, and that was to the game store in which the game was held, not to the GM. There's a game at the cafe where the rule is 2 items from the cafe, so $10-15, but obvs there's a sandwich and a drink involved in addition to the game.
PFS GMs are given in-game rewards: character boons for PFS1, double AcP for PFS2. Most accept that, with $0 cash, so ... there's your price anchor.
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I'll also add that, anecdotally, the most I've paid for a 4-hour PFS game is $5, and that was to the game store in which the game was held, not to the GM. There's a game at the cafe where the rule is 2 items from the cafe, so $10-15, but obvs there's a sandwich and a drink involved in addition to the game.
PFS GMs are given in-game rewards: character boons for PFS1, double AcP for PFS2. Most accept that, with $0 cash, so ... there's your price anchor.
Well, I'm not able to run anything for free. Seeing that there is a market with an average price point of $20 per player on that site, I'm trying it because that's 3/4s my current daily income in 1/4 the time and that assumes only 4 players. If I got 6 players, that would be more in 4 hours than I currently make in 16 hours. GM rewards are not even worth my time to write down right now.
That's literally that only way I'll get to run anything.
Thus for me, it's not about rewards, it's the difference between running nothing or something.
And I'm looking at it primarily just to make my financial situation better. I'm living in a car right now, in Texas summer heat, any improvement to my income is absolutely worth it. It just so happens I can actually run games.
But I also know people are less likely to pay to play for some homebrew unknown system, hence considering PFS since I have a season and actually am familiar with pf1 which is still run. 5e is out because I dumped that after the playtest because I hate it and I have no adventure league modules to run for it anyway.
I am looking at campaigns too obviously, but I'm not limiting myself till I know better about where I can get good customers.
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All good info, thank you.
Next question, if I'm not in a lodge, how do I handle things like confirmation sheets, reporting, etc?
You just make your own Event, report the sessions yourself, and issue electronic chronicle sheets.
To establish an Event, go to My Account at the top of this page, select Organized Play from the dropdown, and then the GM/Event Coordinator tab. Click Create New Event and give it a name. You'll get an Event Code that goes on the bottom of all chronicle sheets. You can report as many sessions/games under that one code as you like.
GM Muerte uses Roll20. I've never been on StartPlaying before, but checked it out. There is an option for "Text/Play by Post." You could just go ahead and post for recruitment there and see what happens (without recruiting for it here directly, of course.)
I don't question your GMing ability, but if you haven't played in any Society games yet, you might want to do so first. I recently had the unfortunate experience of having a very experienced 5e AL GM try to make the transition to GMing Society games with no Society play experience beforehand. It did not go well for them or the players, as they just didn't understand either Society rules or the culture. Again, I'm not doubting your or their general GMing chops, but being a great Top Gun fighter pilot doesn't directly translate to being a great airline pilot - different rules, different cultures.
All that said, I do sincerely wish you luck with this!
All that said, I do sincerely wish you luck with this!
Thank you for the info.
I've played the occasional pfs game, not a great many and only one in the past three years, but I am not totally unfamiliar. :)
I agree with Nomadical's advice. As a player, I would be pretty unhappy if a GM who didn't really understand the intricacies, rules, and cultural norms of Society ran a game in a way that messed something up for one of my PCs. If it was an inexperienced GM I would just chalk it up to their inexperience. But if it was an inexperienced GM who had *charged* me for the chance to sit at their table, I would question why such a GM had not taken the trouble to build some Society experience.
That is, if you want to charge to be a GM, go ahead, nothing is stopping you.
If you want to be a PFS GM, go ahead, nothing is stopping you.
If you want to charge to GM PFS games, it would show respect to your players and the rest of the PFS community if you play/GM some PFS games first without a financial component (not to mention studying the Org Play Guide, Additional Resources, etc. if you haven't done that yet).
Them's my two coppers.
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If you're looking at it as a means to help with income I think I'd doubly repeat what others have said that you will want some good, solid experience playing and being a part of Society games more recently than years back before trying paid GMing imo. If people have a poor experience when they are paying for a game then they are far more likely to leave negative feedback/contact the site owners to demand refunds, etc. which has the possibility of strongly impacting your ability to offer games.
You can find a lot of guides on how to set up events and report things here: Unofficial Org Play "How to" (TONS of useful, detailed guides, all in one place!), and the guides to all Org Play campaigns here: Guides to Organised Play. The very best of luck with it all and I hope your situation improves quickly!
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I'd also like to add that this is a pretty inefficient way to build income. If you include prep time, coordination and count all your hours from start to finish, pretty much any summer seasonal job out there will beat that tenfold.
Pool companies are really hurting for home service folks right now and they're charging 150 an hour, for example... a certified pool tech can probably keep half of that but even uncertified folks doing home calls for pool cleaning / water testing can keep a decent slice of that pie...
I'd also like to add that this is a pretty inefficient way to build income. If you include prep time, coordination and count all your hours from start to finish, pretty much any summer seasonal job out there will beat that tenfold.
Pool companies are really hurting for home service folks right now and they're charging 150 an hour, for example... a certified pool tech can probably keep half of that but even uncertified folks doing home calls for pool cleaning / water testing can keep a decent slice of that pie...
Not nearly as inefficient as you think. I am very good at improve. I've literally run entire campaigns with zero prep. So a couple hours of prep, most of which can be used for multiple games that I run, will quite suffice.
Besides, looking up pool techs, the prices for starting out range from $12-$18 an hour. $30 an hour for senior positions.
Prices for running a game are on average $20 per player, which for four players for four hours is $20 an hour, or six players is $30 an hour. And many games charge $25 to $30 per player which is up to $45 an hour.
So, when I run the numbers, they are really good actually, with the catch being to get customers.
Still, way better than my other prospects, none of which call me back yet.
There are swimming pools where you live, PDK??
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Nice.
I guess he's gotta skate somewhere ...
I'm thinking about introducing Play by Post to my players. Any recommendation on scenarios that can showcase the advantages of PBP playstyle?
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I'm thinking about introducing Play by Post to my players. Any recommendation on scenarios that can showcase the advantages of PBP playstyle?
Master of the Fallen Fortress & The Confirmation are really easy on new PbP players. Easy for a new GM, too. I also found that a couple of those Quests with 5 or 6 encounters in each one were nice for new players.
Edit: Silverhex Chronicles & Phantom Phenomena. They were great when I was first learning PbP.However, I think it's more important as to how the GM teaches the game, rather than what scenario to use.
If you haven't already, you sould point your players to DH's Guide to PbP.
My favorite & most important guideline to give PbP players is...
The most aesthetically appealing narrative structure seems to be Third Person Limited. When everyone writes in that style, the story flows like a novel and gives everyone reading a firm grasp of all the characters thoughts and motives.
I'm thinking about introducing Play by Post to my players. Any recommendation on scenarios that can showcase the advantages of PBP playstyle?Master of the Fallen Fortress & The Confirmation are really easy on new PbP players. Easy for a new GM, too. I also found that a couple of those Quests with 5 or 6 encounters in each one were nice for new players.
Edit: Silverhex Chronicles & Phantom Phenomena. They were great when I was first learning PbP.
I agree. Keep it short. PFS scenarios and short adventures will help maintain posting momentum before real life can take a toll.
I'm thinking about introducing Play by Post to my players. Any recommendation on scenarios that can showcase the advantages of PBP playstyle?Master of the Fallen Fortress & The Confirmation are really easy on new PbP players. Easy for a new GM, too. I also found that a couple of those Quests with 5 or 6 encounters in each one were nice for new players.
Edit: Silverhex Chronicles & Phantom Phenomena. They were great when I was first learning PbP.
The rest of the Free RPG Day adventures are also good for this. It's a good excuse to break traditional heroic roles and play some goblins in the We Be Goblins series.
I think the real advantage is the ability to write stuff out, polish up dialogue and descriptive text, the things you usually don't have time for at a live session.
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I'm thinking about introducing Play by Post to my players. Any recommendation on scenarios that can showcase the advantages of PBP playstyle?Master of the Fallen Fortress & The Confirmation are really easy on new PbP players. Easy for a new GM, too. I also found that a couple of those Quests with 5 or 6 encounters in each one were nice for new players.
Edit: Silverhex Chronicles & Phantom Phenomena. They were great when I was first learning PbP.However, I think it's more important as to how the GM teaches the game, rather than what scenario to use.
If you haven't already, you sould point your players to DH's Guide to PbP.
My favorite & most important guideline to give PbP players is...
The most aesthetically appealing narrative structure seems to be Third Person Limited. When everyone writes in that style, the story flows like a novel and gives everyone reading a firm grasp of all the characters thoughts and motives.
I think 'Heroes for Highdelve' is another nice choice since it has specifically designed pregens for it if the players want to go that route.
Got a doozy for you, GMs
It concerns the Teamwork feats Outflank and Paired Opportunists.
I have a player with a Hunter (call them A) + Wolf animal companion (call them B) who both have these feats.
They also have Pack Flanking so they can flank while adjacent to each other.
Say they’re “adjacent flanking” and A scores a crit on the opponent, this triggers a single AoO from B. B taking an AoO, also triggers a single AoO from A.
I think this is OK so far.
But then say one of the AoOs is a critical hit. Does this start the paired AoOs for a second time? (And so on, if one of those is a critical hit)
Now, there is a phrase in Paired Opportunist which states: This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.
So I think it comes down to whether or not the “second critical hit” is a separate “given action” or not.
How would you adjudicate this?
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Got a doozy for you, GMs
It concerns the Teamwork feats Outflank and Paired Opportunists.
I have a player with a Hunter (call them A) + Wolf animal companion (call them B) who both have these feats.
They also have Pack Flanking so they can flank while adjacent to each other.
Say they’re “adjacent flanking” and A scores a crit on the opponent, this triggers a single AoO from B. B taking an AoO, also triggers a single AoO from A.
I think this is OK so far.
But then say one of the AoOs is a critical hit. Does this start the paired AoOs for a second time? (And so on, if one of those is a critical hit)
Now, there is a phrase in Paired Opportunist which states: This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.
So I think it comes down to whether or not the “second critical hit” is a separate “given action” or not.
How would you adjudicate this?
If neither of them have Combat Reflexes, it's easy <g>.
More seriously, the second crit--because it's a direct result of the first one--isn't a separate "given action."
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An AoO is not an action. The initial attack is the action and the AoO is a response to the action.
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I'd also rule against chaining AOO from these for the reasons given above.
It's pretty sweet already that if you get a crit you get two bonus attacks on the poor sucker. And at +8 to hit and at your full attack bonus. Getting a 3-for-1 action economy off the feat combination is really nice.
Balance wise it would also be ... unideal.
A perfect situation would be a 15% crit weapon, Improved Crit makes it 30%.
Chance of you getting a crit off the AOO is another 30% (so 9% that you get two bonus pairs of attacks). For a high BAB attacker, or someone with TWF that would be every couple of rounds.
The chance of a third cumulative set would be 2.7%. Still, these are crits, so especially damaging. It is this type of spike damage that can really wreck encounters.
First, they'd still be limited by how many AOOs they can take.
Second, let the encounter get wrecked, that's part of what makes players feel powerful. Normally they'd get that from all the weak encounters, but since paizo doesn't believe in throwing players against weak encounters, you meed that from somewhere else anyway.
The dice will stop this before the GM has to.
Either the crits will stop or the enemy will stop.
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I guess some of this comes down to the situation you are playing in. Given this is PFS it is more of a RAW thing, so you are limited to the one AOO from a given action (your initial attack being a critical in this case).
In a homebrew world, you can judge for yourself what works. In a solo campaign this may be quite an acceptable way to boost damage output.
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Thanks for everyone’s feedback!
I’ve talked it over with the player and have had a couple of simple notions reinforced.
Players like to be listened to, and have their proposals duly considered.
If there is mutual respect between Player and GM, it makes it easier to reach an agreement that both can accept.
Good gaming to everyone!
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Somewhere (and I've seen it, but can't find it) there was a document that summarised the changes for running Bonekeep online.
Does anyone remember where it is? In particular I'm trying to remember if Bonekeep level three was sanctioned for online (I know one and two were, as I've run them).
It's a full round action.